Kellindell Posted January 27, 2012 Author Share Posted January 27, 2012 Were not down any rabbit hole. YOU might be. The game is a month old. You are trying to bring experience and mechanics from other games and all your gaming history and expecting it to equate with this. Repetition, comfort and trying to repeat your life experiences brings about dullness and lack of creativity. New ideas always have issues in the beginning - that the proponents of old ideas - even if they manage to be open minded - jump to to demand a recall. It is a matter of watching oneself also, is it not? This game is just a month old. When you say 'we are too far down the rabbit hole', you are clearly bringing all your OWN experience and your past and expectations here are you not? What use is it? Give the game a little bit of time to develop, and you might be surprised with a new, dynamic and engaging system to play with. Cheers The game is not a month old, it is several years old. For them to create diversity among the mirror classes now would require them to pull a SWG and completely change the game, and we saw how that worked out. In the beta, their was diversity, it was unanimously tested out and in one fell swoop the classes were turned into complete mirrors (kind of, that is the point of the thread). Why would the devs spend so much time testing that, ruling it out and then spending a bunch of time stream lining things into mirrors if they were just going to change it again? Its obvious the Devs decided on mirror classes, the progression of beta points towards that, as well as the three changes they have made to streamline things they missed (Flash bang, freezing force and salvation). If they didnt want things mirrored, why do all of that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitaant Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 (edited) The game is not a month old, it is several years old. How is it several years old? It was released december last year afaik. I am not talking about adding diversity - but letting whatever little they have working right now to remain. They clearly had it it mind and want to go somewhere with it. Give it some time. Beta testing is to help out developers with issues and such. Not to give beta testers a strong voting hand into what works and what doesn't or what is or what shouldn't be. They might have had issues with the game in terms of balance or gameplay that worked one way but decided to keep it. That's up to them. And if you are a dedicated and interested enough mmorpg player to know all this and give so much input and demand so much - you should also know that it takes time for these things to fall in place and that this is their first mmorpg and that it will take some time to balance out. Gaping holes I can understand. It is obvious that they did NOT intend perfect mirror classes. A 60 second vs a 90 second cooldown is not a coding error or a slip. Your definition of mirrored classes is not what they have to live up to - there are no golden standards in this game - or indeed - in life. Let them explore a little. It does no harm. Give it some time before we see if it is a real imbalance. We will need to see some number crunching and more pvp vids and such. cheers Edited January 27, 2012 by nitaant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattoc Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 This thread is filled with frustration and angst so thick you could cut it with a knife. A few dev responces here and there would go a long way. I 100% support the OP. Personally I don't like playing on the "evil" side. Yes i know its possible to play a "good guy" on the evil side. That does not appeal to me. I hope this gets addressed and then fixed. Some sort of dev responce again would go a long, long way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilmoka Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Thank you so much for taking the time with all of these stats. They cannot ignore this. I love republic, but we get rolled on ilum because of numbers and more people are playing with because of this animation and hidden advantage. Fix this and the broken pvp reward system to time/xxx collected = reward and this game will get so much better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zevulon Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 if you dont have mirror classes, then you get the shaman/paladin issues they shouldnt even have different names imothat makes it soooo confuzzling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skateboardc Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 I doubt that EA/BW is that ignorant about the issue at release, they simply assumed that everyone was going to be Republic and Imperials needed an upper-hand, they were so wrong. I hope these issues will get fixed soon. Because at the rate the game is going now, being Imperials having a population advantage and a skill/talent advantage, alot of Republic players will stop playing. SO FIX THIS ISSUE!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kellindell Posted January 27, 2012 Author Share Posted January 27, 2012 This is going to be the last time I respond to you, because you are either only half reading my threads, trolling me, or legitimately not smart. As far as how old the game was...you made a point and I made a counterpoint and then you took the counterpoint out of context as if your original thread did not exist, in fact that is what your entire response is here. The age/time I was pointing out was all the time that went into them developing this current system. How you can look at it and think the point was diversity is beyond me. And I just mean looking at it without any of the contextual clues. How you can read this thread and still think diversity was the point the devs were trying to get across blows my mind. I pointed out several key points, not sure what else I can do for you here. You obviously dont get it. Also, once again I will point out the distinct difference between diversity and balance. Diversity is when we have completely different skills, none of the classes do. Aside from these imbalances the classes are EXACTLY THE SAME. You get the same skills, and the same levels, the same talent in the same tiers in the same order that do the same thing. In what world is that not a mirror? In what world is that a developer team seeking diversity. Also, I dont see how you can think one side having a ton of advantages over the other being diversity. Diversity would entail they each have their own separate distinct advantages and disadvantages to create flavor between the factions. All we have is one side having a bunch of advantages and no counters for the other side. Call it a voting hand, call it feedback, its the same thing. The point of a beta test is to have players play the game and tell you what they think which is the process game developers use to work out kinks and balance the game. After a whole lot of beta testing, the game moved towards the game you see today. And the point of it all was to make mirror classes, which they did aside from a few glaring mistakes. We gave feedback, and this is what they did with it. The Devs made that decision, not us. As the illum fiasco proved all we as players can do is recommend, the devs in the end will do what they want. So look at the big picture and realize, this is what they wanted. How you can say they clearly had diversity in mind looking at the current system is mind boggling. If they werent intended to be mirrors, how come in your 60vs90 second cooldown point you didnt mention the fact the devs admitted on these forums it was a mistake, and fixed it so that now both classes have a 60 second cooldown? Same thing with freezing force in the upcoming patch. The sith version was 9 seconds, the Jedi version 6 seconds, in the next patch they will both be 9. Again, they admitted the mistake. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=141767 I searched for a while, their is actually a thread where a dev specifically says it was a mistake, apologized for it and promised the upcoming fix. Searching isnt great on these forums, I tried and the most I could find was the above link. Normally I would assume that the fact they changed it to make both classes the same would be enough...guess not. Third point here is the upcoming salvation change, making it inline with the Sith version. That is three changes stream lining classes in any instance they werent perfect mirrors. The problem is, they still refuse to acknowledge directly all these invisible problems due to animations. How is it several years old? It was released december last year afaik. I am not talking about adding diversity - but letting whatever little they have working right now to remain. They clearly had it it mind and want to go somewhere with it. Give it some time. Beta testing is to help out developers with issues and such. Not to give beta testers a strong voting hand into what works and what doesn't or what is or what shouldn't be. They might have had issues with the game in terms of balance or gameplay that worked one way but decided to keep it. That's up to them. And if you are a dedicated and interested enough mmorpg player to know all this and give so much input and demand so much - you should also know that it takes time for these things to fall in place and that this is their first mmorpg and that it will take some time to balance out. Gaping holes I can understand. It is obvious that they did NOT intend perfect mirror classes. A 60 second vs a 90 second cooldown is not a coding error or a slip. Your definition of mirrored classes is not what they have to live up to - there are no golden standards in this game - or indeed - in life. Let them explore a little. It does no harm. Give it some time before we see if it is a real imbalance. We will need to see some number crunching and more pvp vids and such. cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kellindell Posted January 27, 2012 Author Share Posted January 27, 2012 if you dont have mirror classes, then you get the shaman/paladin issues they shouldnt even have different names imo that makes it soooo confuzzling Well, depends on the game. As i said, DAOC did it very successfully. But you have to have that intention from the start, or it just wont work when you try to revamp the game and add it in the future. Not just from a logistical point of view, but also from having a game rage on you for changing everything ala SWG. At that point if you want to change that much, make the second version of your game and release it. The point im making here that some people dont understand is that with this particular game mirroring was the point, and it failed in a few ways either intentionally or accidentally. I dont necessarily advocate mirroring, depends on the game and its lay out. But in this case its obvious they are mirroring the ACs, and my thread is not so much advocating for mirroring, its advocating corrections in game that has mirroring and screwed it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kellindell Posted January 27, 2012 Author Share Posted January 27, 2012 This thread is filled with frustration and angst so thick you could cut it with a knife. A few dev responces here and there would go a long way. I 100% support the OP. Personally I don't like playing on the "evil" side. Yes i know its possible to play a "good guy" on the evil side. That does not appeal to me. I hope this gets addressed and then fixed. Some sort of dev responce again would go a long, long way. Well said, and the other point im trying to make. Seeing no response to this thread or the many threads about this same issue is very frustrating. Its great to see Devs try to create PR by posting in threads about what theme song your smuggler uses. Im sure we all got a warm fuzzy feeling when we saw that. Id rather see yellow posts in response to actual issues though. A response to this would go a long way in dealing with the frustration. Everytime you see one of these in play, or hear someone say something like "Why do i play republic again?" you know how many Civil war matches ive done this week where the left and right nodes got capped and we battled over the middle for a really long time, and you look up and Empire is winning because they tick faster. It is frustrating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiachsidhe Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Damion Schubert, lead combat developer. There is no problem that cannot be solved with more lightning. Just think this quote is funny, considering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celestila Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Bump for great justice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kckkryptonite Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Are these fixed yet? If you want to help faction imbalance, making mirror classes actual mirrors will help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exoteis Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 This thread is filled with frustration and angst so thick you could cut it with a knife. A few dev responces here and there would go a long way. I 100% support the OP. Personally I don't like playing on the "evil" side. Yes i know its possible to play a "good guy" on the evil side. That does not appeal to me. I hope this gets addressed and then fixed. Some sort of dev responce again would go a long, long way. Filled with anger ? This thread all about fixing the issues mirrors have. There is no QQin or raging. Except against devs who doesn't work/answers towards those issus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kairo- Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 (edited) This is in test patch notes for 1.1.1. It's a start: Jedi Knight GuardianFreezing Force: Now correctly lasts 9 seconds (up from 6 seconds). Edited January 28, 2012 by Kairo- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sac- Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Add Intimidating Roar / Awe to that list. Intimidating Roar (Sith) not only stun you but also knocks you down, making it 6 sec stun plus the time to get up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fungihoujo Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 A great deal of the animations are being fixed up in the coming patch- on top of most of the differences like CDs either already being patched or being in new patches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aweus Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Add Intimidating Roar / Awe to that list. Intimidating Roar (Sith) not only stun you but also knocks you down, making it 6 sec stun plus the time to get up. This. The "get up" animation is retarded unless you factor its duration into the intended stun duration. Which I guess is not the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agentbam Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 I agree with OP on this it needs to be addressed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fungihoujo Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 OP, might want to edit in some of the changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lorylke Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Um, Funcom placed a 25% damage reduction penalty on all female characters. That was not just out right gimping but sexist too. AoC, right? I remember that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NasherUK Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 This. The "get up" animation is retarded unless you factor its duration into the intended stun duration. Which I guess is not the case. There is no "time to get back up", you can use abilities and move the second the stun ends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kellindell Posted January 28, 2012 Author Share Posted January 28, 2012 This is in test patch notes for 1.1.1. It's a start: Jedi Knight Guardian Freezing Force: Now correctly lasts 9 seconds (up from 6 seconds). We are aware of that change. But as I said, the only things they have changed are things that have hard and fast number differences, flashbang, salvation and Freezing force. They have not addressed, recognized or responded to one thread about the imbalances created by these invisible things that arent so invisible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kellindell Posted January 28, 2012 Author Share Posted January 28, 2012 OP, might want to edit in some of the changes. Such as? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mutee Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Would be good to know if they plan to fix them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kellindell Posted January 28, 2012 Author Share Posted January 28, 2012 There is no "time to get back up", you can use abilities and move the second the stun ends. That is incorrect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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