252/258 gear for "pure" PVPers

[memerobot]

Well at least now we know you haven't ever done HM/NiM operations ever.

 

HM Operations I've done. Just not NiM and honestly because out of not finding them interesting to do really. Never clearly fully one but I did do some bosses and not in normal way, as I previously mentioned before. Does not mean I wouldn't change my mind in the future. I could change my mind.

 

PVP takes a great deal of skill and there is no question it has it's chllanges, but, if you sent the best pure PVPer ever with little to no HM/NiM experience into DP/DF NiM, Raven HM, Coritani HM, Master/Blaster HM, SNV/TFB later bosses, not only would they not clear one single boss,they would have the lowest numbers out of the entire group.

 

Hardly truthful. I've raided with many other groups and even though I am a PvPer myself, often I'm actually at mid-high of the dps. PvP players just don't know mechanics of bosses which isn't hard to do after 5-10 minutes read and if the boss is hard, then wipes will help in the learning process. All they need to do is to adapt proper abilities to these fights and they'll do fine just as hardcore PvE players.

 

When you raid in Progression everyone logs into the same parsing program which provides live time stats that everyone can see the whole time, DPS, HPS, etc and they do that because they need to know that every player there is carrying his weight in his role because there is no such thing as carrying in Progression Raider [ Most HMs/NIM] If everyone is not meeting the numbers required at all times, with everything else going while theyre DPSing, mechanics that can kill the entire group in one second. [One shot mechanics] the cannot beat boss. If they cant meet the numbers, the boss enrages at a certain point and everyone dies without exception. It's really not the numbers that get you persay, it's the raid mechanics, because in a number of instances in a raid, there are mechanics that essentialy are, If 1 person, makes 1 mistake, 1 time during that mechanic, everyone dies.

Raiders haveexpensive repair bills at death which can cost 40k per death in 248 gear which will rise with 258.

 

My DPS in average is stable on the 9k - 10k and that is while I'm going full clicking since I'm lazy af but if necessary I can raise that number to 11k, if required. My rotation in burst phases reach peaks of 12k effortlessly, before the 'slowdown' as I have to do the 2nd reset of dots with the way I play Lethality Op and when I abuse the CDs on AP PT.

 

Pure PVPers without raid experience, they can't DPS as well as they think they can but that's because they don't even know whart there own DPS is and they think total damage is DPS [ and that the dps at the end is about the whole matcg when its only about the players last 'combat state' ]and that's their guide, so it's understandable. Good Raiders will out DPS pvpers by miles. It wouldn't even be close. But, they would die fast against a PVPer in a 1v1, they wouldnt stand a chance. In fact good Raiders would be very surprised at just how ineffective that higher DPS would be against PVPers who know how to fight, slow, stun, use their DCDs more effectiently and they would be humbled fast.

 

I'd challenge any boastful PVPer who thinks they could do the harder raid content w/o experience to the following

 

 

Take screen shot of Operation clears on a PVPer and wherein they don't have much raid experience but still think that they are better than any PVEers and could breeze thru HM/NiM, give them a week to try as many times as they like to clear DP/DF NiM Revan HM, TOS HM, Many bosses in SnV and TfB [most certainly the end bosses] and than at the end of that week have them come back and take screenie that now shows they have cleared that content. - No chance. Not even a little.None.

 

Not all of those but don't say that PvPers can't because they definitely can clear those (or at least HM content rather smoothly). Takes the same time as pure PvE players to learn mechanics and they also have to experience the pain of wipes but saying they'll have DPS problems? No way in hell. PvP already is made to do as much DPS possible in short windows and they just need to apply that pressure into those moments. Ranked PvP helps in that regard.

Or even those Huttball games where both teams are equally skills. Kill ball carrier as fast as possible while it was being healed. Pretty much do as much damage as possible so that the healers can't keep up with the DPS output. A dumb comparison but you get my point.

 

W/O experience, they will be the worst players in the group, they will fail the DPS checks, they'll make enrage a forgone conclusion if they even last nearly that long and mechanics havent 1 shoted every already. They will feel like crap because everyone in their saw his numbers.

 

Honestly, I've never felt that. Actually in my groups, I've been always paired with a worse DPS since I pretty much run high urst parse specs(Leth Op, Carnage Mara(when properly handled, it can do sick damage), Veng Jugg, AP PT)

 

PVPers need different skills than PVEers and vice versa and I'm not saying all Raiders are better than PVPers that's rediculous, but in terms of raw skill needed NiM requires more. Near perfection or bust.

 

The different skills is when to dish out most damage and learn buffs/debuffs/order of attacks and so on.

 

This is why we need seperate gearing systems because the Raider/PVPer mentality are irreconcilable. So -

PVP gear or Bolster, there will never be peace between Raiders and PVPers regarding the subject, you must seperate them.

I'm in favor of PVP gear over bolster as PVP gear will allow easier class balancing that won't undeservedly hurt one area of play for reasons stemming in the other area of play. Thats why people are always ************ about buffs and nerfs being the fault of then other area of play.

 

Took a while to say that.

[KendraP]

To bring this back around... i just crunched some numbers.

242 --> 248 is about 7% increase in total stat pool

248 --> 258 is about 5%

https://imgur.com/a/CUmFDOp

The addition of 236 augs was 2.5% with another 0.6% for 240.

Ideas on implication?

Edited October 18, 2018 by KendraP

[memerobot]

To bring this back around... i just crunched some numbers.

242 --> 248 is about 7% increase in total stat pool

248 --> 258 is about 5%

https://imgur.com/a/CUmFDOp

The addition of 236 augs was 2.5% with another 0.6% for 240.

Ideas on implication?

 

Well, numbers in theory I assume?

[KendraP]

Well, numbers in theory I assume?

 

You can see what i did, the numbers for the new gear come from a dulfy post. I measured total stat pool - i.e. add up all the stats on each piece to get a number, then took a percent difference. There's nothing theoretical about 242 --> 248 because thats what we have now. As to 258, sure that could change and that's why I'm asking for opinions. If you have a better way of condensing the stat gains into one number let me know, i always see "increased 3%" but nobody says what, exactly, increased 3%. In mine it was total stat pool increased by 5% from 248 to what they are planning for 258.

 

http://dulfy.net/2018/10/13/swtor-masterwork-armor-crafting-acquisition-in-patch-5-10/

[Rafiknoll]

You can see what i did, the numbers for the new gear come from a dulfy post. I measured total stat pool - i.e. add up all the stats on each piece to get a number, then took a percent difference. There's nothing theoretical about 242 --> 248 because thats what we have now. As to 258, sure that could change and that's why I'm asking for opinions. If you have a better way of condensing the stat gains into one number let me know, i always see "increased 3%" but nobody says what, exactly, increased 3%. In mine it was total stat pool increased by 5% from 248 to what they are planning for 258.

 

http://dulfy.net/2018/10/13/swtor-masterwork-armor-crafting-acquisition-in-patch-5-10/

 

I think it gets more complicated because of diminishing returns and the fact that the base benefit of each stat is not entirely dependant on gear stats. So I believe that aside from endurance and mastery that never diminish, and maybe power and def, because I don't believe anyone carries enough of these to reach diminish, nothing can be exactly predicted.

[Monterone]

There is also a great benefit to playing all classes and specs. You get to learn all their strengths and weaknesses. This makes you a better pvper. The more people doing this, the higher the skill cap becomes in the game and makes for better quality pvp. It also reduces people calling others out for cheating because they don’t understand the class.

 

Absolutely true.

 

Having been able to gear all 16 mirrors in top tier ranked gear was good for the game and the players. It improved the quality of the player base.

 

Also, most likely the reason why coming back to the game now, after a year, it feels like coming back to 1.0 in a way -- not in a good way either. I feel there are so many players who have NO clue what-so-ever how to play this game. I feel like people are learning classes from scratch... and that's probably because they are. They CC through white bars, burn DCDs at the wrong time, dump dps on the wrong targets at the wrong times etc... and this seems to be the majority of Satele Shan, not just some people.

 

 

"One year forward, two years back" seems to be the real vision for this game.

 

Maybe I was wrong and they are executing everything well, they just have no vision for the game and are executing the wrong one.

[memerobot]

You can see what i did, the numbers for the new gear come from a dulfy post. I measured total stat pool - i.e. add up all the stats on each piece to get a number, then took a percent difference. There's nothing theoretical about 242 --> 248 because thats what we have now. As to 258, sure that could change and that's why I'm asking for opinions. If you have a better way of condensing the stat gains into one number let me know, i always see "increased 3%" but nobody says what, exactly, increased 3%. In mine it was total stat pool increased by 5% from 248 to what they are planning for 258.

 

http://dulfy.net/2018/10/13/swtor-masterwork-armor-crafting-acquisition-in-patch-5-10/

 

Is it possible to play Sorc Lightning with a, sort of, Tier 3 alacrity but in a way where there's crit stat enough for the work?

[KendraP]

Is it possible to play Sorc Lightning with a, sort of, Tier 3 alacrity but in a way where there's crit stat enough for the work?

 

Ill get back to you, this was literally a add them all up computation and I've spent all afternoon figuring out damage reduction. Does sorc have any passive alacrity bonuses? I.e. 1.3 GCD = roughly 1860 alacrity.

 

Since we know the value of tertiary stats on enhancements and augments, it should be possible to figure out a combination that gets you to 1860, based on going up or down from the current mix.

[KendraP]

I think it gets more complicated because of diminishing returns and the fact that the base benefit of each stat is not entirely dependant on gear stats. So I believe that aside from endurance and mastery that never diminish, and maybe power and def, because I don't believe anyone carries enough of these to reach diminish, nothing can be exactly predicted.

 

Oh yeah im saying nothing about how much damage you do or crit you gain - this is a ballpark/how big a deal is this computation.

 

I.e. you dont absolutely have to have 236 augments to be effective in pvp now, and thats a 2.5% increase.

Edited October 18, 2018 by KendraP

[Rion_Starkiller]

In another thread, I showed Smarty's spreadsheet where he shows 5 alacrity enhancements and 6 alacrity augs to hit ~1860 instead of the current 6 enhancements and 5 augs. Edited October 18, 2018 by Rion_Starkiller

[KendraP]

In another thread, I showed Smarty's spreadsheet where he shows 5 alacrity enhancements and 6 alacrity augs to hit ~1860 instead of the current 6 enhancements and 5 augs.

 

What about accuracy? Can uou get to 110% with fewer now too? Currently the augment method is really close but not quite 110%

[Totemdancer]

Have you guys seen this about the Ossus gearing on the pts.

 

I purchased Experimental Main Hand & Off Hand from the Vendor pulled the Mods ect from the item to put in Legacy Main Hand & Off Hand and noticed that the Mods, Barrell and Enhancements where tied to the original Item Slot. I.e I could not put the MH Mod in the OH Mod slot or move it to my legs it would only go into the Main Hand.

Please do not make the Mods and Enhancements bound to original Item Slot.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9659004#post9659004

 

Nice work Bio, way to kill the game even more.

[Lundorff]

Have you guys seen this about the Ossus gearing on the pts.

 

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9659004#post9659004

 

Nice work Bio, way to kill the game even more.

 

Ahahahaha that is just perfect. I swear SWTOR is a CIA psyops designed to test the limits of its player base.

[Rafiknoll]

Have you guys seen this about the Ossus gearing on the pts.

 

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9659004#post9659004

 

Nice work Bio, way to kill the game even more.

 

Doesn't that essentially mean there is no min-maxing? In that case, might as well refrain to the original "bolster ignores gear and gives fixed stats" idea...

 

Next time on "BW fails again": BiS gear is a single unmodable BoP piece

[memerobot]

Have you guys seen this about the Ossus gearing on the pts.

 

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9659004#post9659004

 

Nice work Bio, way to kill the game even more.

 

Well, it will take away their op part, in PvP at least, if it is intended

[KendraP]

Have you guys seen this about the Ossus gearing on the pts.

 

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9659004#post9659004

 

Nice work Bio, way to kill the game even more.

 

Oh great more stupidity. So min maxing is literally impossible?

[memerobot]

Oh great more stupidity. So min maxing is literally impossible?

 

On the positive note, you can just skip the grinding ahead. 248 will remain viable

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Ill get back to you, this was literally a add them all up computation and I've spent all afternoon figuring out damage reduction. Does sorc have any passive alacrity bonuses? I.e. 1.3 GCD = roughly 1860 alacrity.

 

Since we know the value of tertiary stats on enhancements and augments, it should be possible to figure out a combination that gets you to 1860, based on going up or down from the current mix.

 

If I'm not mistaken Lightning, like Carnage has an innate alacrity bonus and thus requires less stat pool allocation in order to meet the high alacrity threshold. I'm not certain on the specifics, but perhaps Totemdancer could fill in the blanks on that one. In Carnage's case they gain a flat 3% alacrity bonus innately.

 

Carnage suffers a DPS loss for the high alacrity build, but I believe it is beneficial in Lightning with the appropriate amount uptime, but due to all the stuns, mezzes, slows, roots, high movement boosts and the like I seriously doubt most people are not getting a DPS loss for the high alacrity build, but that's a matter for a parsing program being run and checking after the wz to see if the high alacrity build resulted in a DPS loss or gain, Ranged stand a better chance of mitigating some of the DPS loss due to the above mentioned on a more frequent basis. You'll never really know any other way as the mind cannot perceive a passage of time of 0.01 second.

Edited October 19, 2018 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[Rafiknoll]

On the positive note, you can just skip the grinding ahead. 248 will remain viable

 

Unless they retroactively edit 248 as well, and we will log in after the patch to see half our mods ejected and our gear nearly empty (and of course half of us don't have the original useless mods to fill the void).

 

Now seriously, I can see people walking with 258 armor dotted by lots of 248 because min-maxing is still more important XD

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

On the positive note, you can just skip the grinding ahead. 248 will remain viable

 

248 will remain viable for a while yet as it will take time for people and alts such to catch up with each other once the 258 BIS becomes more readily available.

 

248 will always be viable in PVE providing health pools and damage thresholds aren't increased as they will be essentially the same as now, so if it's sufficient now 248 will remain viable for that content.

 

PVP is another matter. Without at very least a bump to bolster, the gear differences between 236 and 258 will be much more noticable than any present gear gaps. The health pool difference alone between 238 and 258 min/maxed will be notworthy and will give decisive advantahes, not only because the min/maxed 258 player will have more health than the 236 one but, he will also higher combat stats and thus eekling a bit more damage for exchanges, so the differences will get you coming and going.

 

The bolster raise would help to mitiagte a great deal of any gear differences, however people with min/maxed 258 will continue to have a slightly higher tertiary stat pool that bolster won't effect. It won't be a big difference, it won't make or break you, but it will none the less be difference being present. Given PVPers high consciousness of the gear gap issues, I tend to believe no matter how insignificant those differences in tertiary stat pools may be, it will remain a point of contention for many PVPers as it is current.

 

That's why I feel a return to PVP gear really would be the best solution to PVPers, while it would be a bit more of a time investiment than simply using the bolster method, as well as maintaining two sets of gear, in the end it would be better able to make changes within the PVP sphere when necessary without effecting those same specs so adjusted in PVE at the same time. That alone would help with class balancing issues and give the devs a better tool for effecting changes when necessary IMO.

 

I wouldn't mind it at all,it's really not a big deal to maintain a PVE and PVP set of gear, I did so prior to 5.0 and it was easy and quick switching from PVE to PVP gear, so there really wouldn't be much of a downside to it IMO.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Secondary thought regarding PVP gear.

 

I was just thinking about it a bit more and there may be a side effect of returning to PVP gear that could potentially negatively effect PVP.

 

There are people who do both, as I use. If they do the PVP gear that means anyone who interested in ever doing PVE at end game will need the PVE BIS gear. Naturally this would be a significant time investment. So there would be a loss of players from PVP quece pools.

 

In my case, because 258 gear is in NiM Operations only, the fact that I use to be into NiM, as much as I absolutely detest NIM, I can't see myself not getting the BIS gear, theres no way that wouldn't drive me bonkers heh. And if that was the case, I guess that would force me back in raiding. I do have NiM experience so I might actually be able to find a group to play with. Knowing the time investment involved, I couldn't do both at once and I doubt other like minded PVP players who wanted/needed both sets of gear would just opt not to get BIS gear. There's no way I could resist not getting new BIS tier gear.

 

That is one of the benefits of the shared gear, it allows for an easier and lest time consuming method of being viable for both.

 

I know PVPers are against it, and I wouldn't suggest otherwise, but, there would be losses felt from PVP in terms of players, time played in PVP, and quece times would potentially suffer because people would be gearing for BIS gear at the same time which is a useless time investment for anyone for PVP. Choices would have to be made.

I'm still not against the idea, it has too many benefits, but, I can see some people, maybe even myself, getting sucked back into raider because it's the only place than where the gear is, and people are drawn to new, better, stronger kinda thingies, its an RPG after all, that's what they're all about.

 

Now people can PVP while working on gear that will serve their needs for PVE as well, take that out of the equation, people have to make some choices than, especially considering the time investment involved for the BIS gearing and multiple characters.

 

I dunno, I could end up backfiring on PVP populations and quece times. I'm not saying any definitively, I'm just thinking out loud so to speak,some something to consider. In light of those concerns, bolster than becomes a possibly a better choice for PVP needs, but still, the separation of the gears will take people out of PVP and put them into raiding again, because that's the only way to get it. That isn't enough reason not to do it, if it requires some losses, well, so be it, but I do think that would be a result in some measure. We don't really know just how many people in PVP do both and where they may be drawn to with greater diligence. It's a bit of gamble of how populations would change and than normalize after a while.

 

On Star Forge there are no population issues, we have fast quece times and can pvp around the clock as it is. I'm not sure if that's a 'sleeping giant' you want to mess with, it could backfire.

 

But whatever, whatever it is, it is. Whatever is best for PVP, and the consensus among it's players, I'll back.

[Monterone]

Have you guys seen this about the Ossus gearing on the pts.

 

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9659004#post9659004

 

Nice work Bio, way to kill the game even more.

 

That has to be a mistake, no one is that... well, ummm.

 

Why even have slots if that is the case? Just make one blue quality piece that has no removable mods or enhancements and make it BiS.

 

Voila! Game simplified for the lowest common denominator and the rest of us can go look for what's next and not look back.

[DsevenO]

If I have to do NiM ops to compete in pvp I'm out. Edited October 19, 2018 by DsevenO

[KendraP]

If I have to do NiM ops to compete in pvp I'm out.

 

Its a 5% total stat gain, with no feasible way of reaching the next alacrity roundoff point and no new stats on augments or mods - i don't think you'll have to do NiM to compete (i.e. plenty of people are running around in 242s or worse and, assuming they're augmented etc, they're perfectly competitive.)

 

I do think it will give you an advantage over actual pvpers which is where my disgruntlement lies.

Edited October 19, 2018 by KendraP

[Totemdancer]

Ahahahaha that is just perfect. I swear SWTOR is a CIA psyops designed to test the limits of its player base.

 

Thank god Im not the only one whose had the thought that Bioware are trolling to see how much it takes to make us break.