Why is there no kill option for Lana?

[aerockyul]

I don't think that's quite on the money. It's not that people don't like having friends or being saved from death. It's more that not everyone sees Lana as a friend (real friendship is a special thing, based on genuine connections and commonalities), and Lana helping us doesn't make people automatically move her to that category.* People's tastes about personalities, ideologies, etc., are not so unified that you can expect everyone to love any character, no matter how they're written - not even if they're made "helpful." It's like...

 

*(For instance, in spite of all their shared history, the first time my sage felt Lana was her friend was seeing how Lana reacted to Theron in the Nathema Conspiracy. Finally these two force-prodigies had something in common that was emotionally meaningful to my sage.)

 

Some people love eating mushrooms. Some people hate eating mushrooms. Now, suppose a life-saving medication was invented based on a type of mushroom. Even those who hate eating mushrooms will likely feel grateful for this medication if it saves their lives. But that doesn't mean they're going to enjoy eating mushrooms any more than they did before. Even suppose mushrooms become some great eco-food that can save the Earth from climate change by replacing more wasteful foods. Those who hate eating mushrooms may reluctantly eat them for the sake of the greater good... may disguise the taste with various condiments, alter the texture with various cooking methods... but at the end of the day they still don't like mushrooms and would rather eat so many other things. Some things are just subjective likes and dislikes. Dislike can't be brute-force changed to like by placing it in a helpful role.

 

To take a less distant comparison, let's look at the "nice guy" stereotype (which we can just as easily use to think of a "nice girl" instead; we won't get hyper-focused on gender issues here). I don't here mean an actual truly, deeply nice person - such a person is thoughtful and considerate, and that's not what I'm describing. I mean the sort of person who's "nice" to us in a purely mercenary, transactional fashion, with an ulterior motive: to extract affection in return for their "niceness." It's like they push a niceness coupon into our hands and think we're obliged to love them in return. But we know that doesn't work, and it's not because we're "irrational." It's because we can't be bought or manipulated to betray our deepest feelings.

 

When writers try to make everyone like a fictional character, it's "nice guy/girl" syndrome, but with one step of distance added (the writer trying to force us to like their character rather than themselves). Not surprisingly, it gets the same kind of reaction. People who already actively dislike Lana, are indifferent to her, or even somewhat like her but much prefer other companions, aren't going to be "forced" to love her by the writers putting her in a helpful role. We'd rather other characters were in this role instead. (Maybe we'd rather eat potatoes than mushrooms, even if we like mushrooms!) And, for some people, the more writers try to force it, the more the character is rejected.

 

Feelings about characters are highly subjective and they will always be this way. Writers may try to ignore this fundamental truth and heavy-handedly try to force us to like a character by making them so helpful, but it will never always work. They may get everyone to acknowledge that the character helped. They won't get everyone to like them. And those who don't like the character are not "irrational." They simply have a different taste than the ones who do like the character.

 

I honestly felt exactly the same about Liara in Mass Effect. Here was another character Bioware put in a central helpful role, but it didn't force everyone to love her. (Spoiler-tagging this since it's off-topic.)

Liara found Shepard's body and gave it to Cerberus. She was never my favorite character, but I thought she was fine - sweet and intelligent, a nice person - until, after giving Shepard to Cerberus so they could work on bringing Shepard back, she said absolutely nothing to my Shepard's actual LI, leaving him to mourn Shepard for two years rather than telling him what he deserved to know. Now his emotional state might not have been improved by being told (considering the status of Cerberus), but it still would've been his right. Who was Liara to make that decision when he was the closest one to Shepard? Add to that Liara gets a special DLC in ME2, while Ashley/Kaidan get nothing of the sort (and can only be seen in a single brief scene compared with Liara who can be revisited whenever we like), and how she's available in our squad for much longer than Ashley/Kaidan in ME3, and clearly BW seems to be pushing her much more than the other ME1 LIs. And, among those of us who were previously meh-to-positive about her, but preferred the other LIs, that created resentment. "How can you resent Liara?" people asked. "That's irrational. She saved you!" Well it was players' meta-issue with a writing choice, not so much our protagonist's in-universe feelings about Liara's actions. Some of us players disliked that BW made Liara their favorite and tried to push her on us, when we preferred other characters. They tried to paint her in a more and more favorable light, and those of us who refuse to be forced to love her just dug our heels in.

 

 

So... ultimately... I think a lot of people's negative feelings about Lana, or other people's negative feelings about other objectively helpful characters, really come down to meta-issues with writing choices.

 

There is resentment from both sides about writing choices, that's pretty clear and you won't find many who disagree. I'm not advocating because I like or love a character everyone else should. I do poke fun at a lot of the reasoning though, because a lot of it IS irrational. A few pages ago my little list on the ridiculous reasons people want innocuous companions dead wasn't just pulled out of thin air, it's from reading the opinions of people who want kill options here in the forums and in-game.

I see Lana-hate as irrational because she's really not done anything to earn a death warrant, whereas a lot of the people who want her dead think other companions that most certainly DO deserve a death warrant should be protected and forgiven. Or, also irrationally, which you touch on, just because their favorite companion did something loathsome and death-warrant-worthy and BW finally (admittedly, very LATE) did something about it, well, now we're all going to dig in and find any stupid, irrational reason to justify kill options on characters who, when you objectively look at it in MOST situations, have done nothing to warrant death, because, well, if this one companion out of 40 did something worth dying for, everyone else should have to go through the pain of having them vilified and/or killed. But again--for fake, imagined, contrived reasons that aren't actually supported by the game's canon or writers' intentions.

 

I won't say I don't read too much into the companion relationships--of course I do. But I try to remain objective about it all. I (used to) highly sympathize with people who loved that certain companion and for all the crap they got from edge-lords everywhere--BUT, lol, he DOES do what he did. It's not like we all imagined that scene. No one is grasping at straws at what happened or trying to make up fake reasons for why he should have been killable. It's not irrational to act or want to act on actual betrayals.

 

But with Lana--she confides in you, works together with you even when you disagree with her, saves you right out from under Arcann's nose and from slow death, protects you when she can, sides with you when you want to stick it to the Empire, and worries about your well-being when you get silly things like lightsabers shoved into your gut or you get fried on a trap-throne or you have a dangerous artifact in your room that could potentially end all the conflict you're trying to end and she's studying it.

 

So what is kill-worthy here? She disagrees with you sometimes? She's emotional but doesn't go into a kill-crazy rampage like a lot of edgelord DS toons do for exceptionally and far less transgressions? She cares too much?

Objectively you can't really look at what she's actually done and say she deserves to die. She's not a flippin' stranger that one time in your room--she's not making out with you while you sleep or breathing inches from your face or sharpening a knife she plans to bury in your chest in a couple minutes if you just hadn't woken up at that moment, or you slowly open your eyes and a pillow is just coming down on your face. What, you haven't been working together for years by this point but she should, at this point now, be considered to have some kind of sinister motive for being in your room, studying a holocron on the other side of the room?

 

Where is the kill-worthy stuff we seem to be missing here? When does she betray you for your two-faced master? When does she kill a bazillion people like petty children just to smoke out one person? When does she steal your ship because you killed a bunch of innocent civilians? When does she take you captive and force you to Iokath so she can "find herself"? When does she betray you by taking and protecting a murderous tyrant that you've all been trying to kill for 5+ years? Are we killing her because of what she did on Rishi? If you're DS, you could care less what she does to Theron. If you're LS and smart about the situation, she was proven right (but definitely should have let him in on it, granted).

 

Lol "She's in my room!"

 

I get the argument about "I don't hate her, I just want other companions to give me the fetch quests" That's fine, but that's not what we have. If they kill her, they're not going to grant that wish and suddenly Kira and Scourge are going to replace the Lana and Theron show. We don't have a choice in this--so again it boils down to the pettiness that because other companions are killable, she must be killed, regardless of real, rational reasons. "Misery loves company" and schadenfreude are not real, rational reasons.

 

*All use of the word "you" is meant to be the PC, not you personally

[Estelindis]

There is resentment from both sides about writing choices, that's pretty clear and you won't find many who disagree. I'm not advocating because I like or love a character everyone else should. I do poke fun at a lot of the reasoning though, because a lot of it IS irrational. A few pages ago my little list on the ridiculous reasons people want innocuous companions dead wasn't just pulled out of thin air, it's from reading the opinions of people who want kill options here in the forums and in-game.

I see Lana-hate as irrational because she's really not done anything to earn a death warrant, whereas a lot of the people who want her dead think other companions that most certainly DO deserve a death warrant should be protected and forgiven. Or, also irrationally, which you touch on, just because their favorite companion did something loathsome and death-warrant-worthy and BW finally (admittedly, very LATE) did something about it, well, now we're all going to dig in and find any stupid, irrational reason to justify kill options on characters who, when you objectively look at it in MOST situations, have done nothing to warrant death, because, well, if this one companion out of 40 did something worth dying for, everyone else should have to go through the pain of having them vilified and/or killed. But again--for fake, imagined, contrived reasons that aren't actually supported by the game's canon or writers' intentions.

 

I won't say I don't read too much into the companion relationships--of course I do. But I try to remain objective about it all. I (used to) highly sympathize with people who loved that certain companion and for all the crap they got from edge-lords everywhere--BUT, lol, he DOES do what he did. It's not like we all imagined that scene. No one is grasping at straws at what happened or trying to make up fake reasons for why he should have been killable. It's not irrational to act or want to act on actual betrayals.

 

But with Lana--she confides in you, works together with you even when you disagree with her, saves you right out from under Arcann's nose and from slow death, protects you when she can, sides with you when you want to stick it to the Empire, and worries about your well-being when you get silly things like lightsabers shoved into your gut or you get fried on a trap-throne or you have a dangerous artifact in your room that could potentially end all the conflict you're trying to end and she's studying it.

 

So what is kill-worthy here? She disagrees with you sometimes? She's emotional but doesn't go into a kill-crazy rampage like a lot of edgelord DS toons do for exceptionally and far less transgressions? She cares too much?

Objectively you can't really look at what she's actually done and say she deserves to die. She's not a flippin' stranger that one time in your room--she's not making out with you while you sleep or breathing inches from your face or sharpening a knife she plans to bury in your chest in a couple minutes if you just hadn't woken up at that moment, or you slowly open your eyes and a pillow is just coming down on your face. What, you haven't been working together for years by this point but she should, at this point now, be considered to have some kind of sinister motive for being in your room, studying a holocron on the other side of the room?

 

Where is the kill-worthy stuff we seem to be missing here? When does she betray you for your two-faced master? When does she kill a bazillion people like petty children just to smoke out one person? When does she steal your ship because you killed a bunch of innocent civilians? When does she take you captive and force you to Iokath so she can "find herself"? When does she betray you by taking and protecting a murderous tyrant that you've all been trying to kill for 5+ years? Are we killing her because of what she did on Rishi? If you're DS, you could care less what she does to Theron. If you're LS and smart about the situation, she was proven right (but definitely should have let him in on it, granted).

 

Lol "She's in my room!"

I get the argument about "I don't hate her, I just want other companions to give me the fetch quests" That's fine, but that's not what we have. If they kill her, they're not going to grant that wish and suddenly Kira and Scourge are going to replace the Lana and Theron show. We don't have a choice in this--so again it boils down to the pettiness that because other companions are killable, she must be killed, regardless of real, rational reasons. "Misery loves company" and schadenfreude are not real, rational reasons.

This is all extremely fair. I don't think at the current point in the story there's a rational justification for killing Lana that's based on in-character actions (vs. OOC issues like writing, meta, and vindictive wishes for shared misery). And some people do have wildly inflated ideas of what kinds of "infraction" merit death. I could get behind some of those ideas more easily if people explicitly admitted they're perfect choices for morally twisted characters only, since this is a Star Wars game and it includes the Dark Side. It's appropriate for my evil characters to kill Koth when they're egomaniac lunatics or utilitarian sociopaths. Said appropriateness is an indictment of them, not Koth! But for so many people it seems to come down to "waaaaah those characters didn't (or did!!) treat me like a perfect, invincible god - how dare they question my character - they must suffer!!!" No sense of separation between their judgment and the PC's judgment. Those are the ones who really worry me.

 

I do agree about that notable companion whose punishment was delayed. He did do the thing. I think it could've been written better at the time, but it was written as it was, and we're left to deal with that (and, my, there are a lot of strategies we employ to deal with that!). I do think, however, that it's unfortunate that only those who wanted to exact their vengeance for the original betrayal were catered for in that moment. I think it was a massively petty look. I think there also should've been the option to say "I forgave you then, but I can't forgive you now; you wasted the last chance I gave you" (whether the current "infraction" is him being Acina's minion against us if we side with the Republic, or having failed to find and rescue us before Lana did). I say this as someone for whom he is alive in all playthroughs.

 

Lana in our room studying the holocron actually annoys me far less in terms of creepiness and far more in terms of "weren't we trying to keep this secret from Valkorion???" But I love storylines that let us play on multiple levels, where we're acting one way for an observer and secretly pursuing another agenda. (The Traitor storyline let Theron do this, but not us.) Agent chapter two (and what can follow from that!) is pure love. When our agents pick one line of dialogue and actually have to say another, it's using the interface to reinforce our roleplaying experience. Amazing. But sadly we seem very far from that in the Valkorion experience, where no matter what approach we've taken with him we're ultimately forced to fall into his "trap" (bah!). If instead our characters had taken that precious time in the Nathema Vault where we're briefly free of Valkorion (we genuinely seem to be free of him there, vs. his fake abandonment in KotFE ch 12) and used that to form a secret plan with Lana that she executed on our behalf and never spoke of it in our Valkorion-infused presence... Now that would've been something.

Edited December 7, 2018 by Estelindis

[casirabit]

I mean I'm really happy for all the straight (and bi) ladies who finally got some decent male love interests, but please think of your lgbt sisters who need their Lana because Bioware forgets we exist

 

 

Except for one thing you failed to remember some of our male interests have been bricked so we really don't have any love interests anymore.

 

They have allowed some of them to be killed so they are no longer a romance companions anymore so think about that before you make a comment like you did that we got some decent male love interests, yea we did but most of them have been allowed to be killed and therefore removed from our stories.

 

Just a note: I don't want Lana removed from anyone else's story but mine. She doesn't fit for my light side characters and even less so with us heading back to the Empire vs. Republic .

Edited December 7, 2018 by casirabit

[IoNonSoEVero]

Except for one thing you failed to remember some of our male interests have been bricked so we really don't have any love interests anymore.

 

They have allowed some of them to be killed so they are no longer a romance companions anymore so think about that before you make a comment like you did that we got some decent male love interests, yea we did but most of them have been allowed to be killed and therefore removed from our stories.

 

Just a note: I don't want Lana removed from anyone else's story but mine. She doesn't fit for my light side characters and even less so with us heading back to the Empire vs. Republic .

 

Yeah, but you had them. Imagine how it would have felt to have had nothing at all - no flirts, no romances, no one night stands - for all of the class story and then only had a fling that had to end in SoR. Imagine your orientation is completely ignored. That's how it's been for LGBT people.

 

Now imagine that when they finally do give you a love interest, you get one. ONE for all of your characters. That's how it is for bi/lesbian women who want a F/F romance. That's one reason Lana is so important.

 

And I do think the devs will keep their word and keep Theron involved, so there's at least one M/F romance option still in the mix. No, one isn't great but that's what F/F has had all along.

Edited December 7, 2018 by IoNonSoEVero

[IoNonSoEVero]

I see Lana-hate as irrational because she's really not done anything to earn a death warrant, whereas a lot of the people who want her dead think other companions that most certainly DO deserve a death warrant should be protected and forgiven. Or, also irrationally, which you touch on, just because their favorite companion did something loathsome and death-warrant-worthy and BW finally (admittedly, very LATE) did something about it, well, now we're all going to dig in and find any stupid, irrational reason to justify kill options on characters who, when you objectively look at it in MOST situations, have done nothing to warrant death, because, well, if this one companion out of 40 did something worth dying for, everyone else should have to go through the pain of having them vilified and/or killed. But again--for fake, imagined, contrived reasons that aren't actually supported by the game's canon or writers' intentions.

 

(Snip)/

 

I have to agree with all that you've written here.

Edited December 7, 2018 by IoNonSoEVero

[Nefla]

I think they probably thought they wrote Lana in such a way that it's actually irrational to hate her considering all she's done for the Empire, technically the Republic, you, and more broadly for the galaxy. In their canon, they probably didn't count that she might grate on people who doesn't like other people liking them as a friend/companion/coworker or relying on them or saving them from slow and painful death.

 

It's not the first time for sure that they have misjudged how people would feel about a lot of the companions. Like we all should have gone along with a betrayal with forgiveness in our hearts and nothing else, or a murderous thug bull-rushing his way onto our ship, or all LS players would be happy to choose the only LS option when dealing with a murderous tyrant, or all DS players wouldn't lose their collective **** because someone doesn't like it when you unnecessarily kill innocent civilians.

Emotions aren't rational to begin with so saying "it's irrational not to like this person" doesn't make any sense to me. If this were real life it would certainly be unreasonable to hate someone who follows you around like a lovesick puppy, someone who rescued you, is inexplicably loyal to you regardless of how you treat them, etc...however this is NOT real life. This is a videogame and these are characters. Lana being the one to free us from carbonite is something I never wanted in the first place and so it doesn't ingratiate her to me at all. If anything it made me even more resentful of her since I had to spend 9 chapters being beaten over the head with her while her counterpart who I actually like was nowhere to be found. It's not "I don't like other people liking my character as a friend" nobody has ever said that. All of our characters have other characters who they are glad to call friends. In Lana's case it's grating because it's completely unearned. You CAN play in a way where you're nice and friendly to Lana and take actions she likes and your friendship makes sense but the game doesn't acknowledge if you DON'T do that and acting like she worships the ground you walk on when your character doesn't get along with her at all makes her seem like a spineless, whimpering, butt-kissing little twit.

 

 

Ok so Lana is one of my favorite characters in game. If people hate her, fine, that's perfectly ok as I absolutely can't stand some of the characters who have proven to be ridiculously popular with players (Arcann for example).

 

But can we please remember that she is the only proper female/female love interest and romance option. And that there are a LOT of us who romance her on female characters. I know we have Jaesa and Nadia who will be made available for same sex romance, and the devs have hinted there will be more... But you know what? We don't know how involved those romances will be. Jaesa could come back, have two flirt options, tell my character she loves her and then follow me around forever like a mindless husk with no further dialogue.

 

If giving Lana a kill option means she disappears from the story virtually forever, like the original LIs, or the killable LIs, then I would rather her stay a non-kill option.

 

I mean I'm really happy for all the straight (and bi) ladies who finally got some decent male love interests, but please think of your lgbt sisters who need their Lana because Bioware forgets we exist

 

Bioware doesn't handle killable characters very well in general. How is it an "optional choice" to kill off a character when they lose all dialogue with those of us that keep them alive? It's pointless.

She's not just the only lesbian romance option, she's the only romance option left period. If you're a straight woman, a gay man, or just not into Lana you're SoL.

 

 

There is resentment from both sides about writing choices, that's pretty clear and you won't find many who disagree. I'm not advocating because I like or love a character everyone else should. I do poke fun at a lot of the reasoning though, because a lot of it IS irrational. A few pages ago my little list on the ridiculous reasons people want innocuous companions dead wasn't just pulled out of thin air, it's from reading the opinions of people who want kill options here in the forums and in-game.

I see Lana-hate as irrational because she's really not done anything to earn a death warrant, whereas a lot of the people who want her dead think other companions that most certainly DO deserve a death warrant should be protected and forgiven. Or, also irrationally, which you touch on, just because their favorite companion did something loathsome and death-warrant-worthy and BW finally (admittedly, very LATE) did something about it, well, now we're all going to dig in and find any stupid, irrational reason to justify kill options on characters who, when you objectively look at it in MOST situations, have done nothing to warrant death, because, well, if this one companion out of 40 did something worth dying for, everyone else should have to go through the pain of having them vilified and/or killed. But again--for fake, imagined, contrived reasons that aren't actually supported by the game's canon or writers' intentions.

 

I won't say I don't read too much into the companion relationships--of course I do. But I try to remain objective about it all. I (used to) highly sympathize with people who loved that certain companion and for all the crap they got from edge-lords everywhere--BUT, lol, he DOES do what he did. It's not like we all imagined that scene. No one is grasping at straws at what happened or trying to make up fake reasons for why he should have been killable. It's not irrational to act or want to act on actual betrayals.

 

But with Lana--she confides in you, works together with you even when you disagree with her, saves you right out from under Arcann's nose and from slow death, protects you when she can, sides with you when you want to stick it to the Empire, and worries about your well-being when you get silly things like lightsabers shoved into your gut or you get fried on a trap-throne or you have a dangerous artifact in your room that could potentially end all the conflict you're trying to end and she's studying it.

 

So what is kill-worthy here? She disagrees with you sometimes? She's emotional but doesn't go into a kill-crazy rampage like a lot of edgelord DS toons do for exceptionally and far less transgressions? She cares too much?

Objectively you can't really look at what she's actually done and say she deserves to die. She's not a flippin' stranger that one time in your room--she's not making out with you while you sleep or breathing inches from your face or sharpening a knife she plans to bury in your chest in a couple minutes if you just hadn't woken up at that moment, or you slowly open your eyes and a pillow is just coming down on your face. What, you haven't been working together for years by this point but she should, at this point now, be considered to have some kind of sinister motive for being in your room, studying a holocron on the other side of the room?

 

Where is the kill-worthy stuff we seem to be missing here? When does she betray you for your two-faced master? When does she kill a bazillion people like petty children just to smoke out one person? When does she steal your ship because you killed a bunch of innocent civilians? When does she take you captive and force you to Iokath so she can "find herself"? When does she betray you by taking and protecting a murderous tyrant that you've all been trying to kill for 5+ years? Are we killing her because of what she did on Rishi? If you're DS, you could care less what she does to Theron. If you're LS and smart about the situation, she was proven right (but definitely should have let him in on it, granted).

 

Lol "She's in my room!"

 

I get the argument about "I don't hate her, I just want other companions to give me the fetch quests" That's fine, but that's not what we have. If they kill her, they're not going to grant that wish and suddenly Kira and Scourge are going to replace the Lana and Theron show. We don't have a choice in this--so again it boils down to the pettiness that because other companions are killable, she must be killed, regardless of real, rational reasons. "Misery loves company" and schadenfreude are not real, rational reasons.

 

*All use of the word "you" is meant to be the PC, not you personally

-Most of us just want Lana gone and we don't care how that comes to pass. She can frolic off into the sunset and become the new princess of Dantooine for all I care as long as I'm not stuck with her anymore. It was hinted that if we made certain choices that she would leave of her own volition and I'm hoping that's true. If giving her my blessing and a million credit dowry to marry T7 is how I get rid of her then I'll do it. If killing her is how I get rid of her then I'll kill her and I don't care if it's OOC. She's an annoying cluster of pixels, not a real person.

-You're unable to put yourself in other's shoes. If Doc or redeemed Arcann or someone was the one creeping in your room while you slept rather than Lana who you love you'd be creeped out too. You're blinded by your love of her to a creepy scene and all around clingy behavior.

-Fetch quests? What are you talking about? She gives you all of the main story missions.

-You really can't wrap your head around the fact that there are many of us who hate Lana as a character can you? It's not about spiting you, we hate her, find her incredibly annoying, and don't want her forced on us anymore. It has nothing to do with "misery loves company." I would rather get my missions from a text only console than to see that clingy, creepy, obsessive, POS every mission. A text console would be crappy but not as crappy as continuing to have Lana shoved down our throats. It has nothing to do with you.

[aerockyul]

This is all extremely fair. I don't think at the current point in the story there's a rational justification for killing Lana that's based on in-character actions (vs. OOC issues like writing, meta, and vindictive wishes for shared misery). And some people do have wildly inflated ideas of what kinds of "infraction" merit death. I could get behind some of those ideas more easily if people explicitly admitted they're perfect choices for morally twisted characters only, since this is a Star Wars game and it includes the Dark Side. It's appropriate for my evil characters to kill Koth when they're egomaniac lunatics or utilitarian sociopaths. Said appropriateness is an indictment of them, not Koth! But for so many people it seems to come down to "waaaaah those characters didn't (or did!!) treat me like a perfect, invincible god - how dare they question my character - they must suffer!!!" No sense of separation between their judgment and the PC's judgment. Those are the ones who really worry me.

 

 

I do agree about that notable companion whose punishment was delayed. He did do the thing. I think it could've been written better at the time, but it was written as it was, and we're left to deal with that (and, my, there are a lot of strategies we employ to deal with that!). I do think, however, that it's unfortunate that only those who wanted to exact their vengeance for the original betrayal were catered for in that moment. I think it was a massively petty look. I think there also should've been the option to say "I forgave you then, but I can't forgive you now; you wasted the last chance I gave you" (whether the current "infraction" is him being Acina's minion against us if we side with the Republic, or having failed to find and rescue us before Lana did). I say this as someone for whom he is alive in all playthroughs.

 

Lana in our room studying the holocron actually annoys me far less in terms of creepiness and far more in terms of "weren't we trying to keep this secret from Valkorion???" But I love storylines that let us play on multiple levels, where we're acting one way for an observer and secretly pursuing another agenda. (The Traitor storyline let Theron do this, but not us.) Agent chapter two (and what can follow from that!) is pure love. When our agents pick one line of dialogue and actually have to say another, it's using the interface to reinforce our roleplaying experience. Amazing. But sadly we seem very far from that in the Valkorion experience, where no matter what approach we've taken with him we're ultimately forced to fall into his "trap" (bah!). If instead our characters had taken that precious time in the Nathema Vault where we're briefly free of Valkorion (we genuinely seem to be free of him there, vs. his fake abandonment in KotFE ch 12) and used that to form a secret plan with Lana that she executed on our behalf and never spoke of it in our Valkorion-infused presence... Now that would've been something.

 

That's really what bugs me the most about these kill threads. Almost none of them are rational, and they all ironically exploded from the only rational reason to actually kill someone (in the game's context) in which we were denied satisfaction. Now they have too many reasons that aren't the fault of the other companion's in-character actions (thank you for bringing that up vs. OOC "reasons", that's really the best way to describe it).

Admittedly it's maddening when we're constricted in how a real, thinking person would react, or when the writers let us say the right thing but force us into stupid actions (How many times do we tell someone "I won't fall into another trap" and we walk right into yet another one like a fool? How many times do we have to put on that stupid look of "shock" every time someone telegraphs their betrayal?).

From that perspective it does drive me crazy when I can't tell Theron "No, dude, I'm not going to recruit a terrorist" or tell Lana "No, love, I'm not going to go talk to Valkorian before this exceedingly important mission"

 

at the current point in the story

I fear all these bs reasons for wanting to kill a companion that doesn't objectively deserve it is going to lead to more bloodletting soon. Their caving into the irrational Koth-hate was only the beginning.

[aerockyul]

-Most of us just want Lana gone and we don't care how that comes to pass. She can frolic off into the sunset and become the new princess of Dantooine for all I care as long as I'm not stuck with her anymore. It was hinted that if we made certain choices that she would leave of her own volition and I'm hoping that's true. If giving her my blessing and a million credit dowry to marry T7 is how I get rid of her then I'll do it. If killing her is how I get rid of her then I'll kill her and I don't care if it's OOC. She's an annoying cluster of pixels, not a real person.

-You're unable to put yourself in other's shoes. If Doc or redeemed Arcann or someone was the one creeping in your room while you slept rather than Lana who you love you'd be creeped out too. You're blinded by your love of her to a creepy scene and all around clingy behavior.

-Fetch quests? What are you talking about? She gives you all of the main story missions.

-You really can't wrap your head around the fact that there are many of us who hate Lana as a character can you? It's not about spiting you, we hate her, find her incredibly annoying, and don't want her forced on us anymore. It has nothing to do with "misery loves company." I would rather get my missions from a text only console than to see that clingy, creepy, obsessive, POS every mission. A text console would be crappy but not as crappy as continuing to have Lana shoved down our throats. It has nothing to do with you.

 

Everything you say about Lana and the way you say it pretty much invalidates any criticism you're putting on me for not being in love with Doc/Arcann/whichever hetero-male you're attached to atm, you realize that, right?

The point has never been I want everyone to feel the same way, I'm saying no one has really given an actual, real reason that makes sense to kill her and a lot of other companions off that don't boil down to vindictiveness and spite for what they've done to a select few other companions. When the character hasn't actually done anything worth killing over (at least what an intelligent person would objectively not kill someone over), these weird, irrational reasons have to be contrived to somehow "convince" the writers to kill them off.

 

I don't mind your feeling that you hate her and want her gone. I have a loooong list of characters I hate and want gone forever from any part of my story (I'll bet they're mostly ones you like, sorry about that). However, I don't want Bioware to keep acting on these outbursts to inform their decisions going forward--I don't actually want your favorite characters taken away from you because some edgelord wants them dead for no reason other than "I'z big bad Sith, I'z gonna killz everything!!11!", I don't want my favorites taken away because people want to live out their abusive/homicidal tendencies/fantasies on people that did nothing to deserve it.

I don't agree AT ALL with the decisions they make when they choose to off a companion, even the ones that actually, truly deserve it, because the way they're handling it is so utterly wrong. Dead for some = dead for all. Dead for all = dead for all. Alive for some = dead for all. I guess it got too complicated to figure out how to make dead for some = alive for some. They've proven they can't really handle forks in the road as well as they used to.

 

It's sure gonna be a fun game when they're all dead for looking at us funny or not being the right sex or orientation or not being a mindless thrall. The reasons given for killing them off are about that smart and well-conceived.

[IoNonSoEVero]

That's really what bugs me the most about these kill threads. Almost none of them are rational, and they all ironically exploded from the only rational reason to actually kill someone (in the game's context) in which we were denied satisfaction. Now they have too many reasons that aren't the fault of the other companion's in-character actions (thank you for bringing that up vs. OOC "reasons", that's really the best way to describe it).

 

That's the crux of it, isn't it? There was one situation it the class story where it made exceedingly good sense to either eject the companion from your crew or kill them, but we were all expected to forgive and move on. And from that, all of this.

 

In the whole of KOTFE and KOTET, the only two kills that make sense to me from a story standpoint are ironically the two that are not love interests - Senya and SCORPIO. Senya is actively trying to kill you (or Valkorion) and you defend yourself; SCORPIO has betrayed all of you and is on the cusp of merging with a very dangerous entity. Arcann also makes sense in that he was set forward as the story's villain for all of KOTFE, but I don't count him because at the time he is killable, he is neither a companion nor a love interest. He's someone like Lord Praven or Lord Rathari who comes back later as an ally under the right set of circumstances.

 

With Tano Vik they had no choice because the voice over artist had passed on, and Skage, I suppose, was wish fulfillment since most players seemed to resent having to take him on board.

 

But the others? Even the AAs? In every case they set up situations that didn't have to be set up for companions that had done nothing to deserve to be killed. Torian/Vette? There were hundreds in the Alliance, yet nobody could reach them? Active choice to kill off a companion that could have been avoided with another writing direction. Even Broonmark? They deliberately put him in a scenario where you again had to choose. Even with Theron, they forced the matter by placing him deliberately into a situation where some would feel justified killing him, and they didn't need to. There were so many ways to accomplish that storyline that would have made more sense without including a kill option.

 

I fear all these bs reasons for wanting to kill a companion that doesn't objectively deserve it is going to lead to more bloodletting soon. Their caving into the irrational Koth-hate was only the beginning.

 

Yes. They do pay attention to what is said, IMHO, and we have more than a few examples of that now, so it's always worrisome.

Edited December 7, 2018 by IoNonSoEVero

[SithKoriandr]

Yes, it was the bedroom and you were sleeping in a bed. As far as being clothed, your character is always clothed and always has their weapon regardless of if it makes sense or not. Every sleeping scene has you clothed and armed, every captured scene has you armed and armored, etc...You're sleeping and Lana is in your room while you're sleeping. I don't have to "add fuel" to my desire to get rid of her, the game does that for me by adding creepy-*** scenes like this. Your argument about Andronikos makes no sense. A person romancing a character chose to romance that character, when your character has sex with that romance partner you choose whether they will or not. The location they have sex is of no consequence. I did not choose to have Lana in my life at all let alone creeping on me in my room in the middle of the night while I sleep. Step outside yourself and imagine what you'd think if that happened in real life with someone YOU don't like and didn't invite. Some male coworker you don't even like just comes into your room in the middle of the night while you're sleeping and hangs out in there. Creepy, inappropriate, horrible.

 

 

So you're suggesting we just keep said characters but reskin them...uh no thanks. Me not wanting Lana and I assume other people not wanting whatever character they don't want has nothing to do with their name or looks. Reskinning them but keeping the same voice, story involvement, and dialogue does what?

 

 

I'm impressed that you can see into the future. The character I hate is Lana. I liked Theron, Koth, HK, Senya, redeemed Arcann, Vette, Gault, Torian, Jorgan, Kaliyo, Quinn, T7, and Dorne with Temple being "meh" either way. Your statement would make sense if I hated every character but I don't. I would of course rather have all the original companions returned to their full glory with the ones who decided to kill everyone getting less content and having to live with their actions, not the people who spared and kept everyone. If I could make that happen I would but as it stands if my only choices are being shackled to my most hated character every moment of the day OR getting a new crew of characters, I'll take my chance on the new crew.

 

 

If there were any logic to the storytelling at all, Lana definitely wouldn't have rescued certain characters of mine, especially my latest Trooper. Even if they were friendly, he's just one soldier and not some galaxy-altering figure but they were not even friendly. I intentionally took every mean, rude, or contradictory option I could towards her and made every decision she disapproved of, even threatening to kill her if they ever met again and yet she still frees him and still gives him the doe-eyed "it's so good to see you again!" treatment. Ugh. Her acting like a lovesick puppy regardless of how you treat her is one of the reasons I hate her. In Shadow of Revan it made sense that your character would be forced to work with someone from the opposite faction because 1) Your trusted ally was the one who brought them along and 2) There's this grand conspiracy you don't know who you can trust and are short on allies. In KotFE it makes no sense for certain characters to just go along with Lana and Koth the whole time rather than parting ways at the first available opportunity. If this were reality or attempting to mimic reality, Repulic loyalists like my character would go back to the Republic to look for allies not follow a sith that they hate.

 

 

 

All of the instances make sense if you're romancing her, even the bedroom one could be maybe forgiven if you're BFFS but none of them make sense if you've been openly hostile towards her the whole time, disregarded all her advice, and made every choice she disapproves of or even just have a detached professional relationship. The writers were apparently unable to imagine that anyone wouldn't want Lana as their precious waifu constantly clinging to them.

 

You chose to have Lana in your life the moment you decided to keep going forward after she rescued you from carbonite. You know, not someone else, but Lana. That said, again, bad writing and them saving time on the scene. So, seems less of a Lana issue and more of a "I hate Lana so I'll also use cutting corner in my case against her"

 

Well obviously it's a different character at that point. Different look and name is still a different character. As for what it does, it keeps the story moving forward, as we never got that much choice in the story as it was. Consular always keeps the crew for they started with after the end of the class story, until you reach part of KotET.

 

As for my statement and seeing into the future. Yup. I can. I never meant it as "You'll hate them all" it's more of a "You'll hate one of them" at which point, you'll be all "I hate them and want them dead and I want to ruin the story of that companion for everyone else because I want them dead" like any who want Lana dead now are saying.

 

Which, if they allowed you to do and didn't stop them from being in the stories of others who like the companion, I'd be all for it, but that's not what they do. They take them out of the story completely and there's only one way to stop that from happening.

 

No kill option. At least with Theron they can bring him back and make others forgive him.

 

Though again, interesting that the character who saves the life of your PC your character isn't grateful but wants them dead. The way to keep her out of the story, thusly, is simple, don't play those story lines. Simpler than killing off a fan fave companion, just so you don't see her.

[SithKoriandr]

Except for one thing you failed to remember some of our male interests have been bricked so we really don't have any love interests anymore.

 

They have allowed some of them to be killed so they are no longer a romance companions anymore so think about that before you make a comment like you did that we got some decent male love interests, yea we did but most of them have been allowed to be killed and therefore removed from our stories.

 

Just a note: I don't want Lana removed from anyone else's story but mine. She doesn't fit for my light side characters and even less so with us heading back to the Empire vs. Republic .

 

Now I'm curious on the LS characters she doesn't fit.

 

Knight? Does the knight hate Scourge? I don't recall Rusk being LS either.

 

Consular? Does the Consular hate Zenith (DSer) or Qyzen (killer of sentient creatures)?

 

Lana always seems more pro Alliance/Commander than Pro Empire now. So, how does she not fit into the story or is it "She doesn't fit into my head cannon"?

[bluehufsa]

I mean I'm really happy for all the straight (and bi) ladies who finally got some decent male love interests

 

What "decent" love interests did the straight/bi ladies got? Cause i don't see any..unless Paxton Rall will be one.

[TonyTricicolo]

We've been given the option for Theron and Koth (both of which didn't REALLY deserve it and I would never chose to do so). Why is there no option for Lana? She HAS deserved it a few times.

 

For some reason beyond me, they really seem to love this voice actress. But yeah, Kill Her! lol Seriously though, we have a tremendous companion bloat and come 6.0 it's time to clean house. Options to kill or separate from companions would be appreciated in my opinion.

[Elessara]

For some reason beyond me, they really seem to love this voice actress. But yeah, Kill Her! lol Seriously though, we have a tremendous companion bloat and come 6.0 it's time to clean house. Options to kill or separate from companions would be appreciated in my opinion.

 

It's only a companion bloat if you yourself make it one. Most of the companions we get through KotFE/KotET onwards are optional.

[JakRoanin]

Now I'm curious on the LS characters she doesn't fit.

 

Knight? Does the knight hate Scourge? I don't recall Rusk being LS either.

 

Consular? Does the Consular hate Zenith (DSer) or Qyzen (killer of sentient creatures)?

 

Lana always seems more pro Alliance/Commander than Pro Empire now. So, how does she not fit into the story or is it "She doesn't fit into my head cannon"?

 

This statement is beyond ridiculous! Qyzen doesn't advocate allowing mass murder for a get away, nether would Zenith of Rusk! Scourge would, but he disagrees with respect and he also would appreciate we have integrity.

[casirabit]

Yeah, but you had them. Imagine how it would have felt to have had nothing at all - no flirts, no romances, no one night stands - for all of the class story and then only had a fling that had to end in SoR. Imagine your orientation is completely ignored. That's how it's been for LGBT people.

 

Now imagine that when they finally do give you a love interest, you get one. ONE for all of your characters. That's how it is for bi/lesbian women who want a F/F romance. That's one reason Lana is so important.

 

And I do think the devs will keep their word and keep Theron involved, so there's at least one M/F romance option still in the mix. No, one isn't great but that's what F/F has had all along.

 

So because we had them it doesn't matter that we don't have them now and our views our not important. Okay now I understand, it doesn't matter that we don't have them anymore as long as you get what you want. Thanks for clearing that up and here I thought you thought it was wrong but now your true colors are showing. So thanks.

[sauceemynx]

So because we had them it doesn't matter that we don't have them now and our views our not important. Okay now I understand, it doesn't matter that we don't have them anymore as long as you get what you want. Thanks for clearing that up and here I thought you thought it was wrong but now your true colors are showing. So thanks.

 

I don't think that's what she meant at all.

[casirabit]

Now I'm curious on the LS characters she doesn't fit.

 

Knight? Does the knight hate Scourge? I don't recall Rusk being LS either.

 

Consular? Does the Consular hate Zenith (DSer) or Qyzen (killer of sentient creatures)?

 

Lana always seems more pro Alliance/Commander than Pro Empire now. So, how does she not fit into the story or is it "She doesn't fit into my head cannon"?

 

Oh so because I don't think Lana fits with my light sided characters I hate her. Gee thanks. She doesn't work for my characters as we constantly argue over the choices my light sided characters make. I get it that you like it which is good for you but I have never thought Lana would fit with my light side choices. Just because you seem to want to push Lana down everyone's throats because you like her. This actually shows your prejudice. You actually don't care how anyone else feels as long as you get your way.

 

I have been patient and explained I just want her out of my story, no one else, but you don't care. As long as you get your way no one else views matters.

 

I have never wanted Lana removed from everyone's story, but my own but now you are making me reconsider since you want to her in everyone's stories and refuse to understand that not everyone likes or considers her an asset in their story.

[JakRoanin]

so because we had them it doesn't matter that we don't have them now and our views our not important. Okay now i understand, it doesn't matter that we don't have them anymore as long as you get what you want. Thanks for clearing that up and here i thought you thought it was wrong but now your true colors are showing. So thanks.

 

amen!

[sauceemynx]

Oh so because I don't think Lana fits with my light sided characters I hate her. Gee thanks. She doesn't work for my characters as we constantly argue over the choices my light sided characters make. I get it that you like it which is good for you but I have never thought Lana would fit with my light side choices. Just because you seem to want to push Lana down everyone's throats because you like her. This actually shows your prejudice. You actually don't care how anyone else feels as long as you get your way.

 

I have been patient and explained I just want her out of my story, no one else, but you don't care. As long as you get your way no one else views matters.

 

I have never wanted Lana removed from everyone's story, but my own but now you are making me reconsider since you want to her in everyone's stories and refuse to understand that not everyone likes or considers her an asset in their story.

 

Seriously, I think you need to take a step back and breathe. Everyone wants their LIs to be available for future story content. People are angry that certains LIs aren't or might not be (for instance, I hope and pray that Theron does have a role in the next expansion). You and some others on this thread don't like Lana. That's all fine. I think what those who romance Lana are worried about is losing what until now has been their sole option in the entire game, unless you count some lame flirts with Lemda. Nadia I assume will only be for JCs, and Jaesa for SWs, which keeps Lana the one choice for same-sex romance for most classes.

 

Personally, I think killing off any LI is ridiculous, because it leads to this kind of ill will and resentment. And for all the valid and personal arguments that people can marshal for not liking Lana the truth is she never betrays the commander. Theron didn't either, not really, which is why there shouldn't have been the option to kill him. People who didn't like him should have just had to cope, but the writers caved to a certain vocal element. Let's not do the same to Lana. Two wrongs don't make a right. I have no intentions to romance Lana, nor is she my favorite companion in the game, but I also have no desire for other players to suffer the same fate my characters have with their LIs.

 

Anyway, maybe everyone should wait and see how involved Lana and Theron are in future content before they go into meltdown mode. I got the impression that even if they are involved, it will be fairly scaled back. We all have dodgy companions we have to put up with. Such is life.

Edited December 7, 2018 by sauceemynx

[casirabit]

Seriously, I think you need to take a step back and breathe. Everyone wants their LIs to be available for future story content. People are angry that certains LIs aren't or might not be (for instance, I hope and pray that Theron does have a role in the next expansion). You and some others on this thread don't like Lana. That's all fine. I think what those who romance Lana are worried about is losing what until now has been their sole option in the entire game, unless you count some lame flirts with Lemda. Nadia I assume will only be for JCs, and Jaesa for SWs, which makes Lana still the only option for most classes.

 

Personally, I think killing off any LI is ridiculous, because it leads to this kind of ill will and resentment. And for all the valid and personal arguments that people can marshal for not liking Lana the truth is she never betrays the commander. Theron didn't either, not really, which is why there shouldn't have been the option to kill him. People who didn't like him should have just had to cope, but the writers caved to a certain vocal element. Let's not do the same to Lana. Two wrongs don't make a right. I have no intentions to romance Lana, nor is she my favorite companion in the game, but I also have no desire for other players to suffer the same fate my characters have with their LIs.

 

The funny thing is I always understood that until now. I never wanted her removed from everyone's story, just mine. I have had many of the ones my character romanced removed so I understood but now I am not so sure.

 

And I have empire characters that I plan to play saboteur and to me it would make no sense for Lana to be the one that knows that, knowing how she feels about the empire. I have said that makes no sense but yet my views to some are wrong according to some so in the past I have been understanding but I am not sure anymore if I want to do that considering...

Edited December 7, 2018 by casirabit

[sauceemynx]

The funny thing is I always understood that until now. I never wanted her removed from everyone's story, just mine. I have had many of the ones my character romanced removed so I understood but now I am not so sure.

 

Yeah, I'm with you about hating the fact that some of my LIs have been bricked off. It stinks. Totally. I think they should just stop doing that, period. Honest question: how can Lana be removed from your story, and those who hate her, without bricking her off for those who do like her? I for one don't want another LI bricked off, including the ones I hate. Bioware should have known how emotionally attached players are to their LIs. So let's stop the madness right now. (And maybe make it all a dream so the ones we love can come back from bricked off land!)

[casirabit]

Yeah, I'm with you about hating the fact that some of my LIs have been bricked off. It stinks. Totally. I think they should just stop doing that, period. Honest question: how can Lana be removed from your story, and those who hate her, without bricking her off for those who do like her? I for one don't want another LI bricked off, including the ones I hate. Bioware should have known how emotionally attached players are to their LIs. So let's stop the madness right now. (And maybe make it all a dream so the ones we love can come back from bricked off land!)

 

They made some changes, with Arcann. They could do the same with her. I never romanced Arcann, but there were scenes with him, even if you didn't romance him, in the flashpoint of Nathema, they could do the same with Lana. My sorceress didn't have that scene with Arcann because in her story he's dead.

Edited December 7, 2018 by casirabit

[sauceemynx]

They made some changes, with Arcann. They could do the same with her. I never romanced Arcann, but there were scenes with him, even if you didn't romance him, in the flashpoint of Nathema, they could do the same with Lana. My sorceress didn't have that scene with Arcann because in her story he's dead.

 

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be obtuse, but I'm not sure what you mean. The scenes with Arcann I'm thinking of don't remove him from your story. Before you go off to Nathema he makes a case for Theron (and if you've romanced Arcann your character shares a snog with him). And then there is that little scene you can do with him after KOTET where he gives you the armor and you can choose to romance him; I only romanced him once, out of curiosity. I can't think of any other scenes, and he's still in my story. Or am I missing your point? I can be a bit slow at times.

[casirabit]

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be obtuse, but I'm not sure what you mean. The scenes with Arcann I'm thinking of don't remove him from your story. Before you go off to Nathema he makes a case for Theron (and if you've romanced Arcann your character shares a snog with him). And then there is that little scene you can do with him after KOTET where he gives you the armor and you can choose to romance him; I only romanced him once, out of curiosity. I can't think of any other scenes, and he's still in my story. Or am I missing your point? I can be a bit slow at times.

 

My light side characters had the scene making the case for Theron but my darkside sorceress did not as she killed him.