SWTOR finally going P2W

[Jdast]

Bolster at 252 is a great idea. I think most of the PvP community has been arguing for it for years.

 

This discussion has been predicated on the differing opinion on the meaning of P2W. You and I disagree. You contend that because it is not directly purchasable it is not P2W. I say that because there Is a viable method to purchase BiS gear for RL money it is a P2W mechanism.

 

I think it is a pretty safe assumption that Tier 5 will have set bonuses. They would not announce a new tier of gear for MM raiders that would not be desirable for MM raiders.

 

I don’t think this thread has been full of indignant outcry, it has been pretty civil. Both sides have made valid arguments. Just because not everyone agrees, or does not think BW/EA is always in the right does not mean that the conversation has been outrageous or out of line.

 

Mhobin,

 

Both sides have presented their arguments as well as can be expected. To me the issue isn't whether the game has gone P2W. To me the issue is that you are pre-judging a gearing system that we know very little about.

 

Speculating in markets is dangerous and often foolhardy. So too in the forums.

 

Dasty

Edited September 11, 2018 by Jdast

[PennyAnn]

I think it is a pretty safe assumption that Tier 5 will have set bonuses. They would not announce a new tier of gear for MM raiders that would not be desirable for MM raiders.

 

I don’t think this thread has been full of indignant outcry, it has been pretty civil. Both sides have made valid arguments. Just because not everyone agrees, or does not think BW/EA is always in the right does not mean that the conversation has been outrageous or out of line.

 

I do not think this is a safe assumption, as it has never been the case that set bonuses could be crafted. It is much more likely the case that they are introducing a new tier of gear that would mimic what item level 246 currently is in the game, except being higher item level of course. So you could craft BiS everything BUT armorings with set bonus and it will still be BiS in most slots. Given that this is how this has been implemented 100% of the time before (when items were crafted), I suggest it is a much more likely scenario than what you present. Either way, the point still stands... we don't know and should wait to advocate or call foul until we have the information to do so. Right now we do not.

 

Also, it would remain desirable for raiders (and PvP people alike, which is why you are here) even in this case, as you will be able to mildly increase and improve your stats, just like you always have been with a late-expansion gear tier upgrade. And, as such, it will be absolutely no more P2W than in any other situation where you could craft top level hilts, barrels, mods and enhancements. Nor will it be anymore P2W than the current top tier augments are. Yet, I have not heard this cry before now... about a system that has not been explained or described in any way at all.

 

You may not find the click bait title of this thread that you created "outrageous" or out of line, but let's just say that this is another area where we disagree. I'm okay with us not having the same opinion about it. I think I've pointed out that a much better/stronger argument (and one that is definitely less melodramatic than proclaiming the entire game as "going P2W") is to focus on 2 things:

 

1. For PvP players + new Tier 5 = bolster fixes to make this a non-issue

 

2. For PvE (and anyone else honestly) + new Tier 5 = wait to see where schematics/materials can be earned before you advocate for better access.

 

And finally, no one anywhere said that Bioware is always in the right. Though nice try at painting those of us who disagree with you as Bioware apologists. That's a pretty standard gaming forum tactic and an example of the shenanigans that I refer to when I describe this thread as I have.

 

.

Edited September 11, 2018 by PennyAnn

[TrixxieTriss]

Bolster at 252 is a great idea. I think most of the PvP community has been arguing for it for years.

 

 

I also agree with this.

[PennyAnn]

I also agree with this.

 

It would be hard to find anyone who disagrees with this, and it is the argument you should be making to the developers to solve your gearing problems forevermore: Keep bolster one tier higher than BiS in current game, as the standard. Problem forever solved.

 

I think the whole "pay to win" thing is actually harming the otherwise valid requests to address gearing discrepancy in PvP. It is definitely a problem that could be better handled, but focusing on the bolster is a better way to address it to the developers, IMHO.

 

.

[Andryah]

I think the whole "pay to win" thing is actually harming the otherwise valid requests to address gearing discrepancy in PvP. It is definitely a problem that could be better handled, but focusing on the bolster is a better way to address it to the developers, IMHO.

 

.

 

I agree. The P2W theme that spawned this thread is a provocative distraction.

 

Whereas... a well presented case for removing gear from the equation in PvP... if presented by a range of PvP players in a constructive manner (without snark, animosity, etc.. that might just cause the studio to write it off as more drama), could in fact have the possibility to persuade the studio to seriously look at doing so. Yet... in checking the PvP forum.. nope... just more drama by the same folks on the same provocative theme that spawned this thread.

 

The studio would probably push back initially, stating that bolster already does this.. but since bolster is sleightly under whatever is the current BiS gear... players see it as a misapplication of bolster. In my view, making bolster sleightly better then current BiS gear is a very modest move that does not create any real issues... other then to allow PvP players to completely ignore gear (given bolster is not bugged). So again... a well articulated and reasoned presentation to the studio, by essentially a united front from PvPers (assuming they can all put down their pitchforks and unite on something for a change) is both worth the effort AND the right thing for players to do. And in turn, the right thing for the studio to do would be to listen and make it a reality. It might even draw back some PvPers to the game.. since they don't have to face any sort of gear grind catch up effort to be able to compete well in PvP.

 

Of course the unknown here is what level of economic force the avid PvP players actually represent for the game compared to every other special interest group. I only say this because there is a good amount of discussion from avid PvPers about not wanting to do anything except PvP, not wanting to have to buy anything or grind for anything other then PvP, and wanting the ability for non-subs to do so... and that may be a turn-off to the studio if that chain gets wrapped around the discussion axle. So I would encourage PvPers to not role play the discussion in any way that makes it appear to the studio that the "tail is trying to wag the dog".

Edited September 12, 2018 by Andryah

[aerockyul]

I agree. The P2W theme that spawned this thread is a provocative distraction.

 

Whereas... a well presented case for removing gear from the equation in PvP could actually... if presented by a range of PvP players (without snark, animosity, etc.. that might just cause the studio to write it off as more drama), could in fact have the possibility to persuade the studio to seriously look at doing so. Yet... in checking the PvP forum.. nope... just more drama by the same folks on the same provocative theme that spawned this thread.

 

It's not ONLY pvpers who do that but those rants are definitely more memorable. Since I main heals in PvP, my favorite example was when people were ranting about healing being too strong, but mainly 9 of 10 posts would be hysterical and non-specific about the root problem. 1 of 10 posts would lay out the actual problem (bad matchmaking that would put three healers on one team and zero or one at best on the other team) but that got buried by all the dramatic highly oversimplified hysterics of the rest of the posters, and Bioware "fixed" the problem by nerfing healers and ignoring the matchmaking. Only recently have they done anything to go after the root problem but low population sort of makes it too little too late.

 

This thread is a good example of oversimplification and hysterics when the whole argument would be solved by doing what should have been done long ago and take gear out of the PvP equation altogether

[TrixxieTriss]

It would be hard to find anyone who disagrees with this, and it is the argument you should be making to the developers to solve your gearing problems forevermore: Keep bolster one tier higher than BiS in current game, as the standard. Problem forever solved.

 

.

 

I have been campaigning on and off since 5.0 that Bolster needs to be above or at max gear lvl.

 

This is where Musco posted why they decreased it and basically lied about how it use to be in 4.0 or didn’t understand himself. Either way he was wrong.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9220319#post9220319

 

Here is Musco back tracking (sort of) after many of us compaigned to have Bolster increased. You will notice he stil didn’t give an option for it to be max gear, which left a big gear gap to make us grind. Through out the thread, the majority of pvpers told him that their proposed options were too low and didnt go far enough. And we ended up with Bolster at 242 (not long after, they negated that increase by adding 236 Augments)

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9345818#post9345818

 

There were a couple of other threads about Bolster being too low and needing to be raised. I’ve either not been able to find them or they’ve been deleted (I believe some were at the time).

 

The over all message from a majority of pvp posters is Bolster has been too low since the 5.0 nerf. The only people who have supported the current regime have been people who really love to grind or those that want a gear advantage in pvp. The real pvpers don’t want a gear advantage and just want skill based pvp.

 

Bioware just don’t understand (or they do and just ignore) that pvpers will play regardless because we want to pvp. We don’t need gear grind and have never have to for us to want to pvp,

They even admitted in a recent podcast that pvpers are the most stable part of the community when it comes to population percentages (of course that’s means the more non pvpers who leave, the more pvpers can leave to maintain that percentage).

 

We have campaigned for Bolster to be as high or higher than max gear for 18 months and Bioware have ignored us. It doesn’t help that when we do, there are people who derail the thread or certain people move threads.

I remember starting one in the gen section to garner support from the game’s community, only to see it reappear the next day in the pvp section and it seems is ultimately disappeared (there were many threads by different people on this topic)

 

Icykill use to be one of the resident Bolster experts before 5.0. She use to test the Bolster system with different gear lvls to help people gear. She even had her own sticky thread (that Musco stickied for us). She is of the firm belief that pre 5.x, (3.0-4.0) that Bolster was set above max lvl pvp gear. That is why 5.0 Bolster was above max gear when they launched because they hadn’t adjusted the equation for their planned grind fest. As soon as they realised that, they reduced it below what it use to be and started this gear gap issue.

 

Icy left the game after months of campaigning to have Bolster fixed properly and to fix Sorcs (18 months and still nothing)

So I started testing Bolster when they launched the new 236-240 Augments. Any Augments, even 228 ones are negated if you put them on bolstered gear before 242. Augments are only useful at or above 242 gear. Which means people at 242 with Augments are essentially 246-248 geared (without Augments) and 248 with Augments is close to 252-254 gear lvl.

That is a massive gear gap for people coming into pvp with 228,230, 234 and 236 gear. The best they can hope for is close 242, even if they fully augment. The other problem isn’t just the raw main stats.

When you add those Augments in gear above 242, you can properly min-max your secondary stats of crit and alacrity (that makes a huge difference in pvp). If you try to do that with bolstered gear, it actually reverse bolsters some stats. Ie, add too much alacrity and it reduces your crit or too much crit and it reverses your alacrity or accuracy. Which is entirely unfair for bolstered people and it also gives those 242-248 geared people an even bigger advantage. (I also argued for Augments to be taken out of the Bolster equation to make it more fair and was ignored).

 

Bioware might listen this time, but I doubt it, the only way they may even acknowledge it is if the pvp community got a lot of support from the general game’s community in both the forums and other social media. It would also need people to not derail the threads or troll (which we know is neigh impossible in this forum).

If someone else started a thread and got support, I would campaign, but honestly, I’ve nearly given up on this game and Bioware destroying pvp from within. Pvp is a shell of what it was pre5.0 all because of the gear grind and a string of other bad decisions, not to mention the increasing dysnc with each new piece of content added to the game,

[mhobin]

I agree. The P2W theme that spawned this thread is a provocative distraction.

 

Whereas... a well presented case for removing gear from the equation in PvP... if presented by a range of PvP players in a constructive manner (without snark, animosity, etc.. that might just cause the studio to write it off as more drama), could in fact have the possibility to persuade the studio to seriously look at doing so. Yet... in checking the PvP forum.. nope... just more drama by the same folks on the same provocative theme that spawned this thread.

 

The studio would probably push back initially, stating that bolster already does this.. but since bolster is sleightly under whatever is the current BiS gear... players see it as a misapplication of bolster. In my view, making bolster sleightly better then current BiS gear is a very modest move that does not create any real issues... other then to allow PvP players to completely ignore gear (given bolster is not bugged). So again... a well articulated and reasoned presentation to the studio, by essentially a united front from PvPers (assuming they can all put down their pitchforks and unite on something for a change) is both worth the effort AND the right thing for players to do. And in turn, the right thing for the studio to do would be to listen and make it a reality. It might even draw back some PvPers to the game.. since they don't have to face any sort of gear grind catch up effort to be able to compete well in PvP.

 

Of course the unknown here is what level of economic force the avid PvP players actually represent for the game compared to every other special interest group. I only say this because there is a good amount of discussion from avid PvPers about not wanting to do anything except PvP, not wanting to have to buy anything or grind for anything other then PvP, and wanting the ability for non-subs to do so... and that may be a turn-off to the studio if that chain gets wrapped around the discussion axle. So I would encourage PvPers to not role play the discussion in any way that makes it appear to the studio that the "tail is trying to wag the dog".

 

Thanks for your suggestion, dripping in condescension.

 

I think most of the PvP community has given up on forum feedback being used as a way to change things in game. I did years ago. Likely around the time bolster was introduced. People posted long posts on the PTS with the bugs, and it launched in a state which no PTS bug was fixed. I think playing naked was optimal for almost 6 months. It was Musco’s “not at this current time” answer post to PvP FAQ that made me give up on thinking any meaningful changes would be made. For those not familiar, it was a series of about 10 commonly asked PvP questions where his answer was not at this time for like 6 of the questions.

 

As to if we have any monetary sway over the direction of the game. That would be a solid no. The PvP community is a shell of what it once was, and even at its peak we were a small subsection that was ignored for most of the game’s development. SWTOR PvP was doomed from before launch. They picked an engine that could not support cross server, or have large scale OWpvp. Any semblance of competitive PvP died in the 2 year preseason of 8v8 and never came back. That was before arena was introduced in 2.4. I would put the true death of the PvP community as a large part of the player base around 2.0.

[Khevar]

I think most of the PvP community has given up on forum feedback being used as a way to change things in game. I did years ago. Likely around the time bolster was introduced.

You are the OP of this post, correct?

 

If this isn't "forum feedback as a way to change things in game", then what is it, exactly?

[mhobin]

You are the OP of this post, correct?

 

If this isn't "forum feedback as a way to change things in game", then what is it, exactly?

 

I don’t expect pointing out a P2W mechanic being introduced will actually change the devs minds. It was more to point out the fact that it is going to be in the game. They know what they are doing in implementing the system, it is not an oversight.

[TrixxieTriss]

^^ This. Over the last few days, 4'ish, I've amassed just over 6 million credits just from running planetary heroics to collect alliance crates and doing Gree dailies on a single character. Who knew actually playing the game could be so lucrative?

 

So how many heroics did you run? All of the them? And how long did that take?

[Jdast]

I don’t expect pointing out a P2W mechanic being introduced will actually change the devs minds. It was more to point out the fact that it is going to be in the game. They know what they are doing in implementing the system, it is not an oversight.

 

You know nothing of the kind. You are speculating -- in a rank fashion.

 

Dasty

Edited September 12, 2018 by Jdast

[mhobin]

You know nothing of the kind. You are speculating -- in a rank fashion.

 

Dasty

 

Your right, the CM has never been much of a development focus. BW/EA do not spend any time thinking about how to drive CM sales.

[kodrac]

Your right, the CM has never been much of a development focus. BW/EA do not spend any time thinking about how to drive CM sales.

 

As if your bias wasn't already apparent, the sarcasm just highlights it.

Edited September 12, 2018 by kodrac

[TUXs]

I think it is a pretty safe assumption that Tier 5 will have set bonuses. They would not announce a new tier of gear for MM raiders that would not be desirable for MM raiders.

Agreed. There's no way this new tier won't have set bonuses imo...pretending it might not is just silly guys.

[TUXs]

I have been campaigning on and off since 5.0 that Bolster needs to be above or at max gear lvl.

I 100% agree!!! Bolster needs to be at top tier level, nothing lower.

[Kiesu]

I think it is a pretty safe assumption that Tier 5 will have set bonuses. They would not announce a new tier of gear for MM raiders that would not be desirable for MM raiders.

I don't think we have ever had a setbonus on a craft-able piece of equipment previously. This would certainly be a first.

If they don't- people will merely swap their mod/enh and leave previous tier armoring in to keep the setbonus.

[TUXs]

I don't think we have ever had a setbonus on a craft-able piece of equipment previously. This would certainly be a first.

If they don't- people will merely swap their mod/enh and leave previous tier armoring in to keep the setbonus.

Have we ever had it where top tier gear was ONLY available via crafting? No. But top tier gear has ALWAYS had the set bonus.

[IanArgent]

So how many heroics did you run? All of the them? And how long did that take?

 

I put over a million credits into my legacy bank after 2 days running Coruscant, DK, Coruscant, Rep Taris (the second two in a group 4-strong, admittedly). I've probably spent a couple of million in the last week on the GTN and my legacy bank balance is still over a million; and I haven't even been concentrating on heroics; too busy doing Iokath daily/weekly for conquest (a nice chunk of change from the individual and guild rewards there) and HSF. And I haven't really been playing but maybe an hour a weeknight and a couple hours each weekend day.

 

I haven't been keeping close track of my numbers, but I suppose I ought to get some actual numbers together if I'm going to keep arguing this point from this angle.

[Khevar]

Have we ever had it where top tier gear was ONLY available via crafting? No. But top tier gear has ALWAYS had the set bonus.

It's been a while, but in the 1.x days, both Campaign Gear and Dread Guard gear could be RE'ed and crafted, and were BiS.

 

If you RE'ed a set bonus armoring, the schematic you learned was the non-set bonus version.

Edited September 12, 2018 by Khevar

[TUXs]

It's been a while, but in the 1.x days, both Campaign Gear and Dread Guard gear could be RE'ed and crafted, and were BiS.

 

If you RE'ed a set bonus armoring, the schematic you learned was the non-set bonus version.

Right...but you had to destroy BiS looted gear to get those...so it's not the same thing. Looting that gear was still the only way to get the BiS gear...that won't be the case with the next update.

[Kiesu]

Have we ever had it where top tier gear was ONLY available via crafting? No. But top tier gear has ALWAYS had the set bonus.

Well to be cheeky, on many game versions craft-able versions of gear have been the BIS for tank players due to lettered mods having better stat distribution for their needs

 

Anyway, that is a weird argument since craft-able gear has never had a set bonus but best has, those two effectively counter each-others out.

Edited September 12, 2018 by Kiesu

[Udoroththefinal]

One of the things that bothers me is that the best companions for dps and heal are time limited access only

 

Zo-0M and Shae vizla due to their unique abilities are the best options for heal at dps respectively

[TUXs]

Well to be cheeky, on many game versions craft-able versions of gear have been the BIS for tank players due to lettered mods having better stat distribution for their needs

 

Anyway, that is a weird argument since craft-able gear has never had a set bonus but best has, those two effectively counter each-others.

Maybe I'm not being clear...

 

Previously, BiS gear has only ever been available via in game activities (PvP, NiM Ops, RNG boxes), never as a crafted piece. Since we're getting a new tier, I assume it'll also be BiS over tier 4 gear, because that's how gearing has always worked...the newest tier is always superior to the previous.

 

Where I am a bit more cautious is where set bonuses come into play...how the hell are they going to work set bonuses into crafted gear? The sheer number of armoring that will be required is going to be crazy. There will need to be 3 armorings PER class...that'll be 12 armoring schematics needed for the gambit of bonuses...I just don't see how that seems practical...

 

Set bonuses need to be eliminated and made innate to each AC...otherwise this is going to be a freaking mess.

[TUXs]

One of the things that bothers me is that the best companions for dps and heal are time limited access only

 

Zo-0M and Shae vizla due to their unique abilities are the best options for heal at dps respectively

That's really kinda random...but I agree...I wish they'd allow players who have missed out on them a chance to get them in-game.