Time to merge the US servers... again. Primetime window getting smaller and smaller.

[aerockyul]

Lol, no. I'm pretty sure they were dug up exactly because of nay-sayer users on these very forums keep having the same argument of "not having accurate enough data" for anything people are trying to tell them. BW/EA has always done their darnest to hide their sales and user counts, that is no news to anyone. And now the individuals who like having statistics are suddenly some paladins fighting against an evil corp and messing everyone's fun? riiight

 

The "doomsayers" are actually the only ones on these forums I've seen suggesting valid improvement ideas, while people who don't care where the money or customers come from are not, and keep pretending like the game is doing great and nothing needs to change.

 

I think the people who have their heads in the sand are just as silly as the people trying so very very hard to "prove" populations are low even though everyone but the very few ostriches left isn't disputing the actual numbers or their "meaning". It's just a huge waste of time and energy.

 

I'm just going to use Trixxie's most recent method as an example. I respect her opinions and I want her to have as many pops as possible. But the amount of effort she's coming up with to show the population numbers is largely a big waste of time. Bioware knows everything she's showing better than she does. They aren't going to see that and change what they're doing. Is it a drive to make Bioware act faster? They aren't going to no matter how accurate Trixxie's data is (it will never approach the empirical, but she at least understands that and is going for more than fluff like one area of the whole game or not enough millenials are tuning into Twitch, etc.). They are going to act when they (or EA) sees fit based on the actual numbers and what their bean-counters tell them is the cut-off point for either further development or abandonment. This exact methodology cut off APAC as expendable, no matter how many signatures, petitions, pleas, etc. All that effort to make them stop or reverse their decision means nothing compared to an employed-by-EA bean-counter's worksheet shown to EA upper management.

 

You guys are banging your heads against the wall in a losing effort believing these constant doom threads, negativity, and population sleuthing will lead to anything other than chasing away the fewer and fewer new and prospective players that we should all be embracing and encouraging to join us.

 

It's like that thing all PvPers hate to hear and admit--their constant REPUTATION for toxicity does not attract as many people as it drives away.

[aerockyul]

I think people get overly defensive about seeing real data -- IMO (again, my personal opinion) that's the exact wrong approach for people who claim to care about the game. The reason why this matters to me here especially is because there were changes made (namely conquest nerfs) - pointless changes that are still relatively new - that have led to a far more precipitous decline in activity than should be happening. If BW would simply listen or care about this, there would be a chance to stem or maybe reverse some of the recent declines until there is new content...

 

The conquest example is a perfect one to bring up in my context of Bioware will do what the numbers say, not what forum-posters say.

 

They have indicated to us (rarely do they indicate to us anything related to participation) that more people are getting conquest rewards, and participation overall is up since the changes.

 

Just because the changes hurt a few people who loved the old way doesn't mean the changes didn't/wouldn't/couldn't bring out the players who HATED the old way or anyone new who wanted to try it the first time and found it wasn't as bad as a few people yelled.

 

Can they IMPROVE conquest? Of course, anything can be improved on. Do they HAVE to continually improve on everything? Not until their bean-counters tell them otherwise. UNfortunately, to them, losing a few people isn't the tipping point. Losing a LOT (in our own personal, anecdotal context) isn't the tipping point. Only they know what that tipping point is.

 

I think about the people that cling to those EA reports that mention or don't mention SWTOR, or mention it in a negative way...If EA were truly unhappy with the results SWTOR is giving them--why would one of the largest and greediest companies in the world not have the guts to cut it off when they are more than happy to cut other things that lose them so much money or even POTENTIALLY lose them money?

 

I agree with people who think Star Wars in general SHOULD BE a license to print money and it is disappointing that gamers and Star Wars fans don't participate like I do (I'm on probably 350 days a year since launch and have never let my sub lapse), but I realize I'm the extreme minority. I want to be appreciated, too, but I'm literally nothing to a bean-counter. I'm a single number in an ocean of numbers, no matter what I'm doing in-game or in these forums.

[Joonbeams]

I think the people who have their heads in the sand are just as silly as the people trying so very very hard to "prove" populations are low even though everyone but the very few ostriches left isn't disputing the actual numbers or their "meaning". It's just a huge waste of time and energy.

 

I'm just going to use Trixxie's most recent method as an example. I respect her opinions and I want her to have as many pops as possible. But the amount of effort she's coming up with to show the population numbers is largely a big waste of time. Bioware knows everything she's showing better than she does. They aren't going to see that and change what they're doing. Is it a drive to make Bioware act faster? They aren't going to no matter how accurate Trixxie's data is (it will never approach the empirical, but she at least understands that and is going for more than fluff like one area of the whole game or not enough millenials are tuning into Twitch, etc.). They are going to act when they (or EA) sees fit based on the actual numbers and what their bean-counters tell them is the cut-off point for either further development or abandonment. This exact methodology cut off APAC as expendable, no matter how many signatures, petitions, pleas, etc. All that effort to make them stop or reverse their decision means nothing compared to an employed-by-EA bean-counter's worksheet shown to EA upper management.

 

You guys are banging your heads against the wall in a losing effort believing these constant doom threads, negativity, and population sleuthing will lead to anything other than chasing away the fewer and fewer new and prospective players that we should all be embracing and encouraging to join us.

 

It's like that thing all PvPers hate to hear and admit--their constant REPUTATION for toxicity does not attract as many people as it drives away.

 

Most of this is unfair, casts aspersions, and misses the point. But I'm pretty much used to this by now. Any presentation of data is perceived as "toxic." I'm someone who loves seeing data and numbers, and someone who believes that it's important to leave feedback here, even if the devs don't address it right away. But honestly I don't have the energy or desire to try to defend my "agenda" here and prove how much I care about this game. So feel free to think what you like about me and those of us who post this stuff...

[Kiesu]

You guys are banging your heads against the wall in a losing effort believing these constant doom threads, negativity, and population sleuthing will lead to anything other than chasing away the fewer and fewer new and prospective players that we should all be embracing and encouraging to join us.

The "doom" threads are worry threads. You see them as doom threads because you want to see nothing good in them. People are actually thinking of solutions in these threads to address the pop issues, not preaching about the end of the universe. Are these solutions valid or not is a different thread entirely. But saying they're nothing but negativity-spreaders tells me something about your mindset and dislike to see any changes being even suggested.

 

The team has been asking for general feedback and ideas (we wouldn't have a literal suggestion forum otherwise). They're providing. You not wanting to see anything that might paint the game in a negative light even for the sake of seeking places for improvement, is on you, not them. They're criticizing the game, you're criticizing the users. The game we can change. The users we cannot. Because they can't afford to. They made this quite clear in the bad feeling podcast just last week.

 

Today you see 30 or so because it is conquest. Normal population in those areas since the merge is a dozen or more. It hasn't been 1-2 since before the mergers and then only on servers like POT5. JC regularly ran 6-8.

There is 5 people CZ right now on SS 5pm california time, CZ is on conquest daily area.

There is 1 person (me) on Yavin, Setion X, BH at the same time as I was swapping instances. Where are the 30 players you speak of? I'd like to find them.

Edited August 30, 2018 by Kiesu

[DWho]

There is 5 people CZ right now on SS 5pm california time, CZ is on conquest daily area.

There is 1 person (me) on Yavin, Setion X, BH at the same time as I was swapping instances. Where are the 30 players you speak of? I'd like to find them.

 

Not 30 tonight on Star Forge, but 15 on CZ, 10 in BH, 12 on Yavin, and 8 in Section X at about 9:30 eastern. A lot different than 1 or 2. The problem for you is either the time or the population distribution. Rumor is that SS is heavier into group content (PVP and Raiding) and the planets are emptier as a result.

 

To compare to previous comments about population, 5 of 6 pub classes are over 100 lvl 70s

 

Edit: Out of curiosity, I popped over to my toons on SS and found 8 on CZ, 11 on Yavin, 6 in BH, and 8 in Section X

Edited August 30, 2018 by DWho

[TrixxieTriss]

Exactly. This absurd claim that the intent is to "call out Bioware" on issues with the game... thus somehow forcing them to implement the TrixxieTriss world view of the game is disingenuous and foolhardy. If anyone has actual accurate population data... it is the studio and they are much more qualified to actually analyze said data and make adjustments to the game based on both the data AND their vision of where they want the game to go on a moving forward basis

 

So you always say you want data or it’s only opinion, so I give you a way to collect the data and all of a sudden I’m trying to “force” my world view on you? LoL, you make me laugh.

 

Impossible to have a civilised and neutral discussion with you because you always turn it personal when you have facts or data presented to you that might circumvent your attack.

 

I didn’t post the “how to collect data” to argue with anyone. All I was doing was providing a tool for people to make their own investigations. It was something that was posted on reddit and a lot of people seemed interested in the numbers and how to do it.

I figured people here might want to know because there is always this argument regarding fleet numbers representing game population and how they aren’t accurate.

 

That was my only intent. I’d didn’t even comment on my findings. I only put a disclaimer that it wasn’t primetime.

 

I don’t know why I’m being attacked about it. I think I’ve been relatively neutral and I’ve been having good two way discussions with people. I’m not taking sides, but I have been pointing out different points of view when things start to get a little too militant in either direction.

 

Let me say this straight, so there can be no mistaking my position.

I am not an advocate for mergers unless absolutely needed.

I don’t think they are needed at the moment, I think it would be premature.

I also think that Bioware have an opportunity to reverse some of the damage they have done and also tweak other things that don’t take a lot of resources or time to do. Things that would improve people’s enjoymant of the game.

 

There are also other options they can try before mergers.

 

I believe most people here agree we don’t want the game to die. I think we would all like the game to be a little more fun and less tedious.

 

Lastly, I dont want mergers for a lot of the same reasons most of the people posting here have said. I don’t want to lose my names, have to worry about decorating again, have to worry about needing to delete Alts (had to delete about 40-50 last time), have to worry about my friends list or ignore list, and lastly, having to play with people again that I moved to Star Forge to get away from.

 

But if they have to happen in the future, I’m a pragmatist. If it will keep the game going for a bit longer, then I’ll probably put up with all the crap that goes along with any merge, as long as they don’t move the servers to the EU. That would be the end of swtor for me.

[TrixxieTriss]

I'm just going to use Trixxie's most recent method as an example. I respect her opinions and I want her to have as many pops as possible. But the amount of effort she's coming up with to show the population numbers is largely a big waste of time.

 

It literally took me 40mins because I made a spread sheet and toyed around with how many lvls I could count at a time. At first I was doing one lvl at a time (that’s what took the longest) till I worked out you could do 10 lvls and then it was fast to do.

40mins is nothing when you consider I’ve sometimes wasted hours sitting there waiting for pvp pops.

 

When I did both the SF count and the SS count, I was queued for mid or low lvl pvp. If it had popped I would have gone in.

So I wasn’t wasting my time, if anything it gave me something to do instead of spending all my credits playing barbie dress ups and strong hold decorating.

 

Now that I’ve worked out the fastest way to do it and have the spread sheet, I’m sure I can do it in half the time, which is about the time it takes for pvp to pop.

 

I also found another use for using this method. It allows you to see how many matches are being run at the time and wether they are arena or 8 man.

This is very useful because I was able to get an idea how many people were in the queue. If no matches were being run and I was queued for 5 mins, then there obviously weren’t enough people pvping in that bracket. It stopped me having to sit there for 15-20mins to find out if pvp was likely to pop. It takes away a lot of the guess work.

 

So there are other practical reasons for using this. I will probably use it all the time to get an idea what’s happening before I sit around waiting.

I’m sure some people will find other uses for it. Obviously the “who” system was setup to check players, locations and numbers, etc. Not just to count how many people are on the servers. Otherwise, why even have it sort the way it does and provide all that information.

 

I think everyone is getting a little bent out of shape over nothing. It’s a tool to use and nothing more. All that’s happened is someone worked out it could be used to gauge player populations. Honestly, I’m surprised it’s taken 6 years for someone to think of it.

Imagine all those arguments people didn’t need to have about fleet numbers “if” we had just known this method. I’m sure there was a hell of a lot of time wasted on those. Sort of like this thread

[ExarSun]

That may be true but the numbers can always be fluid.

I'm a founder that has played more in the past 2 weeks than the past 2 years, for example.

 

@OP: I've already had to rename most of my toons 3-4 times. I only have one of my "normal" RPG names. This is your fault. Merger indeed. HMPH.

Everything is subjective..... in the last 2 years i have played less than the last 2 months before this 2 year period. You really don't need data if you are sensible, non-biased person. It is enough to go in to the game, try the different activities, go to random places and see for yourself if before that you have been playing long enough. Not to mention a little comparison if you had any idea what was your server population before the merges and what is the merged server population now. For the server I play - DM population is lower than TRE before the merge. The merges themselves and what happened with APAC ppl is pathetic and so on, so on.

 

All this has been chewed, said etc....etc...it probably is pointless and futile considering EAware''s behavior towards SWTOR, but this a free forum after all, as long as somebody is subbed, they can present their satisfaction/dissatisfaction (keeping up with forum rules ofc). But obviously the studio focus is CM and new people, going by the last podcast, so ti matters little what any of us here says in the end, unless it is space barbie CM/Stronghold stuff.

 

The numbers are fluid sure enough...fluid going down. Have been for the last 2 years.

Edited August 30, 2018 by ExarSun

[kodrac]

Doooooom!

[Damask_Rose]

I'm just going to jump in and ignore all of the back and forth.

 

Personally, as someone who doesn't do much group content anymore, I really don't care if they merge SS & SF. All of my real concerns were addressed last merge. I prefer having all of my characters on one server anyway, and if my decorations get doubled again, bonus! I'm content with the idea of adding a last name to characters who lose theirs. All I would suggest is that they further reduce the time on some quest spawns, and that they consider giving the conquest titles to more than just the top spot, maybe top 3.

[TUXs]

Doooooom!

Do you have any proof to back this up or is this just like your opinion? You don't speak for me. If it's just you're opinion, you probably should have stated so with a disclaimer like "following is my opinion only. I don't speak for anyone but myself. Agreement from other persons is neither implied nor assumed."

 

[kodrac]

Do you have any proof to back this up or is this just like your opinion? You don't speak for me. If it's just you're opinion, you probably should have stated so with a disclaimer like "following is my opinion only. I don't speak for anyone but myself. Agreement from other persons is neither implied nor assumed."

 

 

Yeah, well, you know, that’s just, like, your opinion, man. The Dude abides.

[aerockyul]

Most of this is unfair, casts aspersions, and misses the point. But I'm pretty much used to this by now. Any presentation of data is perceived as "toxic." I'm someone who loves seeing data and numbers, and someone who believes that it's important to leave feedback here, even if the devs don't address it right away. But honestly I don't have the energy or desire to try to defend my "agenda" here and prove how much I care about this game. So feel free to think what you like about me and those of us who post this stuff...

 

Lol, I'm getting spun around with you and Kiesu responding and your avatars

 

I apologize if you thought I was directing towards you individually.

 

I also find some value in seeing numbers, but there are the people that post them and want to discuss them and people who want to get hysterical about them and want Bioware to act on them immediately. Sort of like the difference between people trying to be positive about things largely out of our control and those with their heads in the sand like nothing is wrong.

 

Nobody sane thinks there is a growing or even stagnant population. Bioware might act on our suggestions about how to improve the game, but banging the lid about the population declining isn't something they're going to act on. They'll act on it when their bean-counter tells them they're getting close to the cut-off point, after many expendable portions of the population have left.

 

I don't LIKE that, but that's the way it is.

 

None of what I've said is meant to say Bioware could not be doing better. I just find more value in arguing/discussing specific quality of life or content suggestions rather than finding new and exciting ways to "prove" to us and Bioware what we and Bioware already know, and especially when the assertions about the effects of changes are completely anecdotal, like the conquest changes (which lead to INCREASED participation and rewards, not decreased like some people believe beyond all doubt despite actual acknowledgment to the contrary)

[aerockyul]

I think everyone is getting a little bent out of shape over nothing. It’s a tool to use and nothing more. All that’s happened is someone worked out it could be used to gauge player populations. Honestly, I’m surprised it’s taken 6 years for someone to think of it.

Imagine all those arguments people didn’t need to have about fleet numbers “if” we had just known this method. I’m sure there was a hell of a lot of time wasted on those. Sort of like this thread

 

Every forum thread is sort of like that

 

I was just using your new thing as an example. Your method so far has been the only thing posited by others that would make me think on a little more *IF going on and on about low population mattered. For me, I know population isn't what it used to be, I recognize just like anyone else how queues (all of them) are slower than they can be during better times. But it's not like I'm looking for someone to show me the numbers that support what I'm already seeing. Bioware is going to have the same reaction I am, and they have the added bonus of smuggly knowing the ACTUAL numbers beyond any shred or shadow of doubt.

[ceryxp]

The following were gathered on Star Forge at the times listed using the data collection method outlined by TrixxieTriss in this post. I did not check Satele Shan because I only have one Republic character on that server or any of the European servers because I don't have any characters on them.

 

15:00-15:10 UTC -- It really doesn't take very long to check these numbers in small batches

Republic - 822

Imperial - 978

Total - 1,800

 

This was an hour before lunch time on the East Coast US. So I waited a bit and checked again just to see if there would be a change during lunch time.

 

16:10-16:20 UTC

Republic - 880

Imperial - 1,085

Total - 1,965

 

* Both Shadow and Sorcerer were 100+ people so couldn't get an accurate count. Not really surprising to see the numbers go up. Since I started on this, and can't really play thanks to a sick 2 y/o, I'll just keep checking throughout the day.

 

18:30-18:40 UTC

Republic - 997

Imperial - 1,280

Total - 2,277

 

* Again Shadow was 100+ so not a completely accurate count. One trend I am seeing is that Vanguard and Powertech seem to be the least played classes as they have had the least number of players online.

 

21:40-21:50 UTC -- A screaming 2 y/o kept me from checking on my intended 2 hour mark.

Republic - 1,207

Imperial - 1,534

Total - 2,741

 

* Shadow, Juggernaut, Assassin, and Sorcerer were all 100+.

 

01:10-01:20 UTC -- I had intended to check more frequently, but a puking 2 y/o prevented that.

Republic - 1,584

Imperial - 1,861

Total - 3,445

 

* Guardian, Sentinel, Shadow, Sage, Commando, Juggernaut, Marauder, Assassin, Sorcerer, Operative, and Mercenary were all 100+. Note that this time is about 9 pm EDT.

 

So, a few things I noticed. The population disparity between Republic and Imperial isn't as high as some like to make it out to be. As previously noted, Vanguard and Powertech seem to be the least played classes. Throughout the day they consistently had lower numbers than the other classes. Would certainly need more data to say definitively. Another thing I noticed is that this is not a very reliable way to get population numbers. How so? Well in my last check there were 11 classes that met or exceeded 100 players online. Sniper was almost included on that list but was just under 100 players (97 at the time). While the difference is likely to only be a handful of players it does mean that none of us on these forums can have accurate server population numbers.

 

Further, this really doesn't tell us the actual server population only the number of people, or close to it, that are logged in at any one moment. Estimates are that only 10~20% of an MMO's server population is online at any one time. If we go middle of the road and say that the 3,445 players online during prime time represent approximately 15% of the server population then that means the server population is roughly 22,966. If Star Forge is roughly representative of server populations across all servers (+/- a percentage) then there are still over 100,000 people playing. Yes, this is a lot of speculation. Is it fair to use Star Forge to represent all servers? No, not really. But none of us on these forums, unless your posts show up on the Dev tracker, can have accurate population numbers. Even using Trixxie's method is speculation based upon a limited system. Even if someone were willing to login to every server at specific time intervals and track these numbers over an extended period of weeks, aggregating the data from all 5 servers, and plotting graphs to reveal trends... Well, I'd rather play so we're all just speculating.

 

To some, 3,500 people online spells DOOOOoooOOM!!1!11! To others, meh. This isn't a triple A game in its prime. It isn't WOW, which is anomalous. This game is almost 7 years old, caters to a niche market (a lot of people may like Star Wars, not all of them want to also play Star Wars or play in an MMO setting), doesn't have competitive, e-sports style PVP, and has slow content releases. Yeah, it has a small population. I would be extremely baffled if it didn't.

[TrixxieTriss]

I did a count on Star Forge in prime time. I’m not going to release the results as such because it just gets people worked up. I did the count for my own tracking and also to see what other data I could pull or use.

 

One thing of note is class popularity. All classes but Powertechs and Vanguards are popular. Both those classes had minimal representation. About 1/3 of what other classes have.

 

There is a faction discrepancy on Star Forge with Imps having about 1/5 more players. Mainly in lower lvls. But level 70 is fairly equal.

What really shocked me is the amount of characters between level 1-40. Easily more people leveling new characters than playing level 70. (I guess people are sick of grinding)

 

Leads to my question, why aren’t more of them pvping in lowbies and Mids?

IMO, the answer is there is no incentives to play those brackets because it’s faster and easier to lvl up in pve.

I believe low lvl pvp is where people should learn to pvp and not lvl 70. It’s more relaxed and conducive to training.

Bioware really need some incentives to get people learning in those brackets. Not waiting till lvl 70 and then running into people raging at them for being noobs. Everyone ends up having a better experience and the quality at lvl 70 improves,

 

The other thing I was able to use the search for was to see how many pvp matches were happening across all brackets and what maps seem to pop the most. As well as how many people in total were playing. I found all this pvp info particularly interesting.

Mandalorian Arena pops the most of all the Arenas (Bioware have thing for their new maps. Always a great way to make people really hate them )

Combined Hutt Balls pop the most 8 man matches (most people leave cause of all the dysnc. They should be removed until they fix that. People hate playing them because of it and it’s making people who like Hutt Ball hate it)

Yavin and Odessen pop next = about equal

There is a noticeable gap here.

Civil war and Nova after that = Civil War a little more than Nova

Hypergates

And then poor old Voidstar which seems to pop the least (a very big difference from the top popping maps)

 

There also aren’t as many matches happening as I would have expected at lvl 70. Below lvl 70 they are almost non-existent and only seem to be arena when they pop.

It seems the lvl 70 queue would be lucky to have 80-100 people in it during primetime. That’s certainly not healthy

 

A one off study isn’t near enough data to come to any definitive conclusions. But I will say that a lot of pvpers have been saying for a long time that voidstar hardly pops and huttball pops too much. What I saw seems to support that.

This is something Bioware can fix. They need to make the pops more balanced and not favour their new maps and Huttball. Ideally Huttball should be removed from the rotation till the fix the dysnc.

What worries me is they have another Huttball map planned for 5.9,3 and I fear it will have just as much or more dysnc. If they can’t fix the other two maps, well

I feel the bugs, dysnc and poor map rotations are all contributing to people’s dislike of pvp. These are all things Bioware can control and improve to stop people leaving the pvp and also the game.

 

When a population drops, you should look at why. The community gives them plenty of feed back and they ignore it and only look at spreadsheets. That’s not how you understand what your players want.

If they don’t want to listen to our feed back on the forums, then they should at least send out a survey to all subscribers and find out what they like, what they don’t like and what Bioware needs to improve. Ideally they’d also send it to all cancelled subs in the last 12 months to find out why they left.

 

Population decline can be halted and probably even be reversed a little if Bioware took actions to improve the fun in the game, fix the bugs and dysnc and add incentives to play the whole game and not just race to lvl 70 and then people leave. All of those things can be done without adding more content. If they did that while we are waiting for the expansion, it would help. It certainly couldn’t make things worse.

Edited August 31, 2018 by TrixxieTriss

[Andryah]

Leads to my question, why aren’t more of them pvping in lowbies and Mids?

IMO, the answer is there is no incentives to play those brackets because it’s faster and easier to lvl up in pve.

I believe low lvl pvp is where people should learn to pvp and not lvl 70. It’s more relaxed and conducive to training.

Bioware really need some incentives to get people learning in those brackets. Not waiting till lvl 70 and then running into people raging at them for being noobs. Everyone ends up having a better experience and the quality at lvl 70 improves,

 

I would bet that most players playing characters under level cap are playing for the fun of the PvE parts of the game... whatever that might be for any given player.

 

I know it is difficult for you to wrap your arms around the fact that PvP has been the leading source (not the only source.. so don't come back with exception examples ... just the leading source) of server die-off for years now.. but it is. This game is mostly about PvE.. and apparently so are most of the players that play PvE. Which in no way takes away from the PvP facet of the player base.... but it does put your continued anxiety over the state of PvP into perspective. PvP servers.... since launch and through the period we actually had PvP servers.... ALWAYS died off first in terms of population and player activity. PvP just is not the thing in this MMO that you want it to be.. and almost 7 years in now... there is no reason to expect that to change. We all could wish it to be different, and make endless threads about it and present ideas to reverse this persistent fact... but that does not change what the player base chooses to do.

 

If you want to blame the studio for the poor state of PvP in SWTOR... have at it. I guess one could say they deserve the grief for not making PvP more central to the game. But it won't change a trend that is now going on 7 years old.. and even predates launch.

 

And NO.. incentives will not make sub-cap characters get played in PvP if the player is simply not interested in PvP (for all the various reasons discussed over and over and over again in the forum about this very topic over the years). I guess you could over-incentivize it to try to move the meter.... but then you would also attract all of the least enjoyed aspect of PvP for players that are not predominately PvP players and undermine any incentive effort. You can lead a horse to water.. but the horse decides whether to drink or not.

 

And yes.. I fully understand that you will continue to create new threads to point out every observed flaw about PvP in SWTOR and make definitive suggestions as to how the studio can "easily fix it". I admire your zeal.. even though I think it is both misplaced and destined to drive you to quit in frustration. Why not set up a Rishi instance and organize some coherent and persistent PvP fun on your server under your desired conditions and constraints and then go get those players who want to PvP to come play? Why must everything be placed at the feet of the studio when they have actually given players and guilds a method to conduct instanced PvP on their own terms and conditions?

Edited August 31, 2018 by Andryah

[aerockyul]

I know it is difficult for you to wrap your arms around the fact that PvP has been the leading source (not the only source.. so don't come back with exception examples ... just the leading source) of server die-off for years now.. but it is. This game is mostly about PvE.. and apparently so are most of the players that play PvE. Which in no way takes away from the PvP facet of the player base.... but it does put your continued anxiety over the state of PvP into perspective. PvP servers.... since launch and through the period we actually had PvP servers.... ALWAYS died off first in terms of population and player activity. PvP just is not the thing in this MMO that you want it to be.. and almost 7 years in now... there is no reason to expect that to change. We all could wish it to be different, and make endless threads about it and present ideas to reverse this persistent fact... but that does not change what the player base chooses to do.

 

That part isn't entirely fair to most of the PvPers in this game. Open World PvP was why those servers existed, not the warzones and arenas. They became smaller quicker because it turns out people who don't have experience with "types" of servers unwittingly chose those servers, were ganked to oblivion, and either left the game or wizened up to what each server category really meant, and the population of gankers and much smaller population of "real PvPers" was left so small that they were always going to be the first servers to die off.

 

I think it was an outstanding idea to make a separate instance in the "normal" () servers, but if you actually go to those instances, even when they were introduced, it is very rare to see 5 people of the same faction, but most often there are like 3-4 people total in there, and most of them ignore each other because they're in there for uninterrupted/non-ninja questing.

 

The OW PvPer in this game is non-existent (or so small as to be inconsequential, as Iokath has proven) and bears no weight in the arguments that Trixxie and other dedicated warzone/arena PvPers are making. Bioware will likely never throw another bone to OWPvP again, but standard PvP still has their ear (to a minimal extent, as has been discussed already, but at least there's hope knowing Keith is a PvPer)

[Andryah]

That part isn't entirely fair to most of the PvPers in this game. Open World PvP was why those servers existed, not the warzones and arenas. They became smaller quicker because it turns out people who don't have experience with "types" of servers unwittingly chose those servers, were ganked to oblivion, and either left the game or wizened up to what each server category really meant, and the population of gankers and much smaller population of "real PvPers" was left so small that they were always going to be the first servers to die off.

 

.....

 

The OW PvPer in this game is non-existent (or so small as to be inconsequential, as Iokath has proven) and bears no weight in the arguments that Trixxie and other dedicated warzone/arena PvPers are making. Bioware will likely never throw another bone to OWPvP again, but standard PvP still has their ear (to a minimal extent, as has been discussed already, but at least there's hope knowing Keith is a PvPer)

 

In my experience in MMOs.. once you provide PvP players instanced PvP.... most of them concentrate exclusively on that kind of PvP. This was true even for WoW more then a decade ago.. when they first put in Battlegrounds.. it largely sucked the life out of rolling open world PvP battles that used to run pretty much 7/24. Of course SWTOR had instanced PvP up front.... so we never got to see what an true OW only PvP would evolve into with this MMO.

 

I'm sure there are still some who love to OW PvP and who can and will organize some adhoc OW PvP between guilds or groups of like minded players on both sides... but it's going to be a minority of PvPers who do this... so I disagree with you that PvP servers die off faster then PvE servers back in the day because of no OW PvP. It's there and always has been.. but it requires players to do more then sit in a queue and shoot the #$%^ in Fleet until it pops.

 

I think it was an outstanding idea to make a separate instance in the "normal" () servers, but if you actually go to those instances, even when they were introduced, it is very rare to see 5 people of the same faction, but most often there are like 3-4 people total in there, and most of them ignore each other because they're in there for uninterrupted/non-ninja questing.

 

No disagreement... and I would submit that it further proves my point that PvPers really only want to do instanced PvP... and apparently mostly through random GF queuing with complete strangers. Now.. maybe if OW PvP had similar rewards for effort in PvP.. more would play outside the instances.. but given that takes time and effort to get to the PvP part...probably not as players do not seem to want to forage for their PvP.. they want it delivered to their door.

 

The fact remains... every PvP server that ever existed in this MMO has died off much earlier then the roughly equivalent PvE server in the same point in time. Remember when people were walking away from the game when server populations started plunging a month after launch? .... where there was no server transfers or merges yet.. so PvPers in NA declared collectively to aggregate through rerolls on The Fatman... and declared The Fatman to be THE stable, populated, and active PvP server where all NA PvPers should play. Yeah.. and yet The Fatman did not fair well in population stability over the long term and being a PvP server.. it did not attract PvE players much. There is no Fatman anymore... it went into the dead bucket in a server merge cycle... and of course.... in 2018.. there is no such thing as a PvP server anymore.

 

I'm understanding of the plight of PvPers in this MMO.. but I also understand that there are PvPers smashing their heads against the forum walls wanting/demanding/pleading for more in the way of PvP in SWTOR.. yet that simply is not the trend... not since day one after launch. I think the game works OK for the more casual PvPer and players who do a blend of PvP/PvE.. but I do not believe it meets (nor ever will meet) the needs and wants of the enthusiast PvPer who really only wants to play PvP (which in my view really should be spending more of their PvP time in esports style games where PvP is core to the game). They certainly deserve to get their wants and needs met in terms of PvP... but they may very well have to go find a game more suited to their needs and wants in this regard.

Edited August 31, 2018 by Andryah

[ZeroTypeR]

Is this request to merge because of low population?, or is it to avoid having to pay to transfer? Because, the server I'm on is quite active at all times of the day/night. Edited August 31, 2018 by ZeroTypeR

[DWho]

....What really shocked me is the amount of characters between level 1-40. Easily more people leveling new characters than playing level 70. ....

 

This is probably the most important part of the entire post. More people are leveling than are playing end game (assuming everyone who is level 70 plays end game or the number of "end-game" players might be even smaller). This is something that has been disputed by the people who are having difficulty with random groups for a very long time and now there is "proof". There are "lots" of people playing the game that are not queuing for PVP or Raids.

[JokerThe]

I agree. weekdays fleet has less than 20 ppl on at a time. the ques for grouping takes too long and eventually ill leave game.

[TrixxieTriss]

This is probably the most important part of the entire post. More people are leveling than are playing end game (assuming everyone who is level 70 plays end game or the number of "end-game" players might be even smaller). This is something that has been disputed by the people who are having difficulty with random groups for a very long time and now there is "proof". There are "lots" of people playing the game that are not queuing for PVP or Raids.

 

I’ve a feeling people are just sick of the grind at lvl 70. There is so much more to do in this game than just grind CXP stuff.

You have all the side planet side quests, there are things to explore, datacrons, heroics, low level flash points and even low lvl pvp

I wonder how many people at those lvls are actually doing all of that or are they just rushing to lvl 70 again? I’m sure not many of them are pvping or it would pop more. Which leads me to think that a lot are F2P.

 

I’d like to see incentives to play the whole game again. Not just the low lvl pvp (which needs help). There is so much good stuff in the vanilla part of the game. Even Makeb is great. The whole game is great as an MMO until you get the 2 expansions that rob you of playing in a group to finish the stories.

 

The stories are still cool, but they have to be done by yourself, there aren’t any real rewards and the chapters aren’t replayable (as such) on the same character. You have to play them on another, which can get tedious because the stories are the same for every class.

 

I think Biowares mistake is marketing and making the game only about lvl 70 and by making it too easy to lvl and removing a lot of little rewards you got along the way. They’ve incentivised people to rush to lvl 70 and basically disregard everything along the way. If they made the game more about the journey and all aspects like it used to be, I think it would be more healthy.

 

I have a feeling (obviously no proof), that a large portion of those lower lvl people I saw are F2P who play till they get to the end game stuff they need to subscribe to. Then they either restart another class to do story or they leave the game.

One of the reasons I believe this is because of low participation in lowbie pvp (F2P are restricted) and also low participation in flash points (I think they are restricted ?).

 

F2P are obviously restricted from playing lvl 70 content because of CXP and end game restrictions. It makes me wonder how much more involvement would there be in end game stuff like pvp and raids if passes were still available to by on the CM and F2P had some way to achieve CXP 150 and wear 236-242 gold armor.

 

Which leads me to question, do Bioware count all the F2P people as their main audience or do they count their subscribers? Numbers on a spread sheet saying “we have have this many people playing”, doesn’t equate to the same amount of money being made or a health game. F2P are fly by night players who I believe rarely bring funds into the game and more because they are so restricted in participating. I don’t know, maybe they do buy bling on the GM and only use it in F2P sections of the game. But it I would say it’s kess than it used to be under the old F2P model.

 

I’ve never been a proponent of F2P in this game, I think Bioware made a mistake early on and gave too much of the game away for free. But in doing so, they set expections for that audience as they drove subscribers away. Then they flip flopped on that model in 5.0 and a lot of those F2P / Prefered people left the game. I think that hurt the game more than we all know or will ever know (until someone writes their memoirs after the game closes).

 

I think it’s time that Bioware added passes back to the CM and eased up on the Prefered player restrictions. They should be allowed to participate a bit more in lowbie, mid and higher end pvp. They should be allowed to participate in some end game story (with in reason). They should be able to collect CXP up to a certain lvl (maybe 150). They should be able to collect UCs and wear 236-242 good gear.

 

It’s obvious people are playing the game, just not in the lvl brackets and content we expect. Which I think points to more free to play and preferred people being limited to that zone. Seeing as the areas we need them in are suffering lack or participation or population, it makes sense to get them into those lvl brackets in some fore to give subscribers some people to play with.

 

Anyway, that’s just my opinion and what I think it means. I could be partially wrong, completely wrong or right.

It sure couldn’t hurt lowbie pvp to open it up to F2P people. It hardly pops as it is. Maybe they’d get a taste for it and want to subscribe and play higher lvl pvp.

Edited September 1, 2018 by TrixxieTriss

[TrixxieTriss]

Is this request to merge because of low population?, or is it to avoid having to pay to transfer? Because, the server I'm on is quite active at all times of the day/night.

 

Which server would that be and can you define quiet active and what days and times during the day and night.

 

I don’t think the thread is about paying to transfers. I think it’s about people wanting mergers. But before mergers are needed, Bioware have options to try first. One would be cheap or free transfers.

[TrixxieTriss]

That part isn't entirely fair to most of the PvPers in this game. Open World PvP was why those servers existed, not the warzones and arenas. They became smaller quicker because it turns out people who don't have experience with "types" of servers unwittingly chose those servers, were ganked to oblivion, and either left the game or wizened up to what each server category really meant, and the population of gankers and much smaller population of "real PvPers" was left so small that they were always going to be the first servers to die off.

 

I think it was an outstanding idea to make a separate instance in the "normal" () servers, but if you actually go to those instances, even when they were introduced, it is very rare to see 5 people of the same faction, but most often there are like 3-4 people total in there, and most of them ignore each other because they're in there for uninterrupted/non-ninja questing.

 

The OW PvPer in this game is non-existent (or so small as to be inconsequential, as Iokath has proven) and bears no weight in the arguments that Trixxie and other dedicated warzone/arena PvPers are making. Bioware will likely never throw another bone to OWPvP again, but standard PvP still has their ear (to a minimal extent, as has been discussed already, but at least there's hope knowing Keith is a PvPer)

 

He seems to not understand that as I’m mainly a pvper, my analysis will be from a pvp point of view, which is what I am passionate about and what I can discuss in detail.

He likes to pick on that point to see if he can make me react and argue with him

He chooses to forget all the posts where I acknowledge the game’s core (like all MMOs) is pve and story, of which all other parts of the game surround and intermingle. He forgets that I say the game is in a symbiosis with all other parts.

He doesn’t add that I support all aspects of this game as having equal right to exist. Like RP players who I respect, even though I don’t do it. All he does is pick one small part of a post and pulls it apart. By twisting things out of context and trying to paint someone in a bad light just to attack them for some sick enjoyment.

 

I don’t pretend to be an expert in the psyche of players in all parts of the game “like he does”. But I do understand the pvp part and that’s what I discuss. He doesn’t understand it and never will. The same as I don’t understand RPers (as an example). That doesn’t make their contribution to discussions any less valuable and I would never think of deriding them or targeting them like he targets pvpers and me especially. He has a specific hatred of me or he just likes to troll me personally. It’s easy to track some of his posting history for the last 2-3 years to see him trolling me (a lot has been removed for good reason).

 

Anyway, the easiest solution is to just ignore him when he trolls or gets all high and mighty. It’s a shame really because sometimes he makes some good points. But then spoils it by throwing in insults or personal attacks against people. We’ve all seen it, not just against me. It’s not needed and would make this forum more enjoyable if he stopped.