Felix Iresso return: thanks

[Hudlar]

If we were ever going to interact with these characters again, I'd feel differently. My point is that it's not really much of a sendoff for a beloved character.

 

You're assumption is that he recovers eventually. With no canon support for any given stance, it's just as likely that he'd withdraw further and further into himself until the only thing keeping him from taking his life is not wanting to hurt the Consular (and that would only be necessary if he sends a generic "all love interests send a letter here" letter at some point - otherwise we can safely assume that he does end up dead). Support and love are nice but they don't fix the kind of trauma Felix has experienced.

 

I understand your point, but we know that this is a world with magical mind-healing: among the Jedi, on Voss, and probably in other places. I really think that any Consular who cares about Felix (romanced or not) would make sure that he got the help he needed if he didn't seem to be recovering on his own.

[JennyFlynn]

Back!

 

I think this is an amazing idea. It sounds like I should read your fic...

Immortality mightn't interest Arcann inherently but as a way to be equal to or greater than his father and heal his own injuries - definitely. I don't know why I didn't think of Scourge right away when I wondered who the character in your fic might be. It's still stunning that he wasn't involved in the KotFE/KotET story.

 

I don't know anything about Scourge apart from what we learn through the JK story. I haven't read any of the novel(s?) involving him. But his immortality is an intriguing thing. Given his opposition to the Emperor, I've wondered why it hasn't been withdrawn. I assume it can't be... I guess, in your fic, Arcann wanted to figure this out as well.

Heh.

In my story Lord Scourge was in fact cured through a mythical object however, he maintained high regenerative properties. Jarak's work was essentially to uncover what Vitiate did to Scourge initially, how his physiology was affected, how it was he became cured but retained certain properties and whether the process could be replicated through scientific means without the consequences Scourge suffered initially. Basically a what/how/perfecting of bottled immortality, or its most popular properties at least.

 

Valkorion, after capturing Lord Scourge, had initially planned to make his errant Wrath suffer for betraying him but of course, never got the chance. Leaving Arcann with snippets of information and Scourge, after which he then decided to continue on his father's plans but for his own benefit instead.

 

I do consider Arcann to be someone who plans and thinks things through. He can be impulsive and driven by his own anger but he is most definitely not a fool. If he could find a way to one up his father, to increase his own power and survivability, I figure he would do it. He's recently taken on a bigger role in my fiction--I had considered initially not investing in him much because I wasn't keen on him--but I challenged myself and dared myself to do it anyway. I ended up putting a lot of thought into what I felt would be plausible for Arcann's story, his motives, his behavior, it's been quite an interesting and enjoyable journey to my own surprise.

 

 

 

A lot of good questions here and no clear answer that I can see.

We might assume a certain knowledge about the identity of the Outlander (if a Zakuulan reeeeeeally wanted to figure it out) from the main character being on the flagship with Marr. The other "main characters" go missing in a variety of ways but (unless we're headcanoning things for our legacies) only one of the eight classes was on the flagship in any particular playthrough. Marr is known to be dead, and it's possible for a lot of the other people on the flagship to escape if we tell them to go to the escape pods. Perhaps the only notable person whose fate isn't clear is the main character. And they would've been seen by some people between being found and Arcann bringing them before Valkorion. For people in the Republic and the Empire, it's understandable to have no idea if the main character survived. But for people in Zakuul, especially those with notable links to the royal family, perhaps something can be learned.

 

Or perhaps not. Regardless, the question of how Jarak would be guaranteed to get Felix specifically by spreading a rumour is still not clear, as is his way of knowing about the holocron.

Absolutely.

 

 

I think the average person with a healthy brain could figure out the identity of the Outlander were they aware of Marr's excursion into Wild Space and aware of those who'd join him there. They would have known [class] was with them and when their death wasn't felt, as opposed to Marr's, or they were never heard from again but suddenly Arcann is broadcasting about this evil 'Outlander'... 1+1, right? Not that that clued our companions in who most definitely knew we were there, lol. That's why the whole preaching that no one knows who the Outlander is has always felt like bull to me.

 

 

 

This is a fairly legit point.

The knights serve the Emperor. That's pretty much their reason for being. So why wouldn't Arcann be in charge of whatever they do? But Vaylin, of course, is their leader under Arcann. If she wanted to use them for any particular purpose, she would've been able to do it too. I doubt Arcann would've been interested in detailed reports of every single mission she ordered. So, like you say, it could've been either of them.

 

That said, honestly, neither brother nor sister strikes me as the type interested in arcane knowledge or patient research. At this point in their stories, at least, they both seem immature and impetuous, concerned with raw power and immediate results. Both can certainly nurture a grudge and wait for revenge if circumstances dictate it, but I don't see them actively looking for schemes that would require patience. So, while maybe reading your fic would give me a different point of view on this, I don't really see either of them initiating programmes of torture-research. Simply put, neither of them seems curious enough. I think even Vaylin only demands work from Jarak when she finds it essential, due to discovering she's been conditioned.

Agreed, yes.

 

 

While I do suspect it was possible, and it is more logical to assume Vaylin maintained Nathema contacts and she did lead the Knights, I don't see her as having the slightest bit of interest in Felix's situation at all. I cannot imagine she would care, nor Arcann for that matter, which makes the whole situation all the more curious unless we presume what you typed out--that Jarak had a level of authority and free reign, granted to him by Vitiate to 'placate' his little scientist and it never lapsed following Valkorion's death.

 

On the other hand, I did find myself wondering how much Arcann knew of Nathema himself and I vaguely recall he mentions having been there? In the Chapter where we receive the dream/warning about Vaylin and go there ourselves but I'm not quite certain. With the way he speaks of Nathema though you'd be inclined to think he tried to keep both the planet and any ongoings there as far removed from himself as possible, and in a way I'd imagine if he did know Jarak well, or at all, he might quite hate the man for what was done to his sister?

 

 

Yes, I think only the JC, Felix, and Sera Fray should know.

There's always Milo Pellam, because it's through his testimony that we worked out something might be up in the first place... But this seems like an outside chance. Talk of a "glowing box" from someone with mental health difficulties I can't imagine gets very far in most audiences. Additionally Darth Ouzal ordered the copy but we've no indication that he knew it was successful or even that he had any idea of the identities of the prisoners used for the attempt.

 

If none of the above-mentioned people's knowledge made its way to Jarak, possibly he noticed something different about Felix but wasn't able to pin it down, hence conducted the experiments (and slowly learned the type of thing Felix's brain was hiding). It doesn't quite match up with Felix's chronology, but it's possible he misunderstood some element of the sequence. But none of this, as you say, makes sense in the context of Felix being someone who'd receive Jarak's attention in the first place. Jarak would have to know there was something worth looking for. Maybe this is just a small slip of writing. Maybe, more properly, it should've been written as Outlander prisoners being funneled to Jarak's work (on the basis of prior orders), and Jarak having the right to take his pick from them (the rest being killed). In such a scenario, the rumour about the JC being on Zakuul simply would've been thrown out to see if anyone bit, rather than being focused on Felix specifically.

 

As for the contents of the holocron, I believe we have absolutely no idea. We know it's a rare, valuable, ancient holocron. Either 1) whatever bits of information Darth Ouzal deciphered from it were interesting enough for him to want a full copy to work on at his leisure, or 2) its background was inherently interesting enough for him to want a copy before he even knew a single thing in it. Notably, it is just a copy. The original may still exist in the possession of the Dark Council. It's not something everyone can read - a noted expert of Darth rank was needed to decipher it. But if Vitiate could get it, I doubt he'd have any problems with it.

Is there any word on what happened to Darth Ouzal, or Sera?

 

 

Could it be either, or both, somehow survived and were among a batch of prisoners? Perhaps offering up the information on Felix in hopes of buying their freedom?

 

As you say, Jarak could have picked up on something interesting seeing Felix but that would mean he'd first have to know to look for Felix specifically at all, and that kind of brings us back to square one.

 

 

 

While the holocron might be missing now, it was around while Vitiate was Emperor.

In theory, couldn't he have accessed it then, telling the Dark Council to give it to his servants? But, then, isn't part of this whole story that his attention was absent (supposedly while living as Valkorion?) for a long period of his Imperial rule? (I honestly still don't have the timeline quite figured out for that.) I feel like, if Vitiate had been conscious enough of the holocron to be interested in it during the time before the JK killed him, he had ample time to look into it. Maybe he just didn't feel in any hurry because an immortal being has all the time in the world...

Don't even get me started on that timeline, lol.

 

 

Vitiate was absent from the Empire for large parts of that time and don't forget, there was also a period where his Voice, his vessel, was trapped on Voss if you keep the SW story in mind (yet oddly he was on Zakuul as well playing benevolent ruler and daddy so...? lol). It could well be his servants, the Hand for example, knew of the holocron and its potentially vital information but were in no place to do much about it in Vitiate's absence. By the time Vitiate resurfaced (assuming post Yavin 4 since between the SW freeing his voice and the JK killing his voice in the dark temple on DK there's not much time), Felix was their only other way of obtaining that information. But again, so much of that involves reaching and serious headcanon to make it all work.

 

 

Good point.

Jarak worked for Valkorion but, as an anomid, came from the "Outlands" originally. Alone, he wouldn't be considered "Zakuul." However, we know that the world where Felix was kept was "remote" but still part of the Eternal Empire. Plus I doubt Jarak was the one personally and directly doing all the experiments. I feel like there's a good chance he did some of them, given how interested he was in his field and what an unusual case Felix represented, but I think he had a supply of test subjects beyond our dear companion. In most cases, I imagine he designed the courses of experiments, supervising and dictating what should be done in his facilities.

 

That rather begs the question of who was doing the day-to-day work. Of course we don't know, but I imagine it to be Zakuulan personnel seconded to Jarak on the basis of Valkorion's prior authorization. After all, Felix was in a military prison. I doubt it housed just him. There would've been plenty of prisoners, guards, and staff carrying out experiments. If Arcann knew about that work and authorized it to continue, he probably felt "why not, better Zakuul gains from such work than someone else." But I wouldn't be at all surprised if it just escaped his notice.

That's a fair point.

 

 

It could well be that the day-to-day staff, other scientists but also keepers, maintenance etc. were all employed to Zakuul/Eternal Empire. If Jarak had access to Knights it's safe to assume he may have made use of other Zakuul-based staff members as well hence Felix's belief that Zakuul did this to him, regardless of any involvement Arcann may or may not have had. And we do know they kept plenty of prisoners of all sorts, the Nathema FP showed us as much.

 

Which brings me to another thought entirely. What if Arcann ordered the luring/capture of Felix because he was trying to round up the Outlander's crew for 'reasons' (perhaps wanting them off the playing field to avoid them doing what Lana ended up doing?). The Knights would follow up on his orders, Arcann doesn't care much what happens with Felix after, Felix ends up among other prisoners and Jarak takes his usual 'pick of the litter' for his science games with Felix capturing his attention?

 

Ergh, so many possibilities but they're all still... reaching too.

 

 

 

 

 

Just my far too verbiose thoughts, for what they're worth. Thanks for sharing your own ideas.

 

Ultimately, the minute level of detail at which we're examining this ignores an overall problem with companion returns, namely that the game acts like our characters aren't persistently inquiring about the missing companions. Especially husbands and wives!

I don't publish much fic on the internet, but I do write a good bit privately, and in some of those fics the consular asks people about Felix. She particularly asks people like Arcann and Malcom, who exerted wide influence on their factions. So, in my particular version of filling in the gaps, Arcann can't have known because he would've told the consular when she asked. But we can't actually do this in the game, so it's left as a pothole for our story's plausibility to fall into.

There are definitely too many plotholes to count in certain situations, and not all returns have made sense to me. I can accept them on the surface but once you really put thought into it, a thing I can't seem to avoid doing, it unravels fast and the returns turn into a sieve lol.

 

 

I am lucky that in my fiction, the sequel that opens up somewhere around the 3rd/4th year of the war, my main is without her crew already sans Lord Scourge so him aside I've not had to run around asking "Where's [name]" much. Little grateful for that, and I definitely do not 100% follow Bioware's narrative in my story. My main for instance is not the original Outlander.

 

 

 

Lol, it took me so long to write this that you have time to post again! Nice to know mine isn't the only mind that rattles around like this. And... your friend has good taste.

Oh she is! I was actually never that big on Felix but she wrote a fiction that involved him and because I enjoy her writing, I went and read it. Safe to say I am far more sold on Felix these days and my next JC will be romancing him lol.

[leviathanmirror]

Perhaps we will never see content for these characters again. I personally live in hope. But, eh, we've barely had any lines at all from them since vanilla, compared with the number of lines they get in vanilla, so probably chances are not amazing. I wouldn't rule it out, but also I wouldn't have massive faith that we will. So I guess your point is fair.

 

I think class specific returns are done for. Killable universal companions may have a slim chance but the amount of character juggling that would go into class specific returns - without returning to companion conversations - probably means this is the end for them.

 

Um... do you really think so? That we can safely assume he ends up dead? :(

 

If we can assume in one direction, we can assume in another. And if he never shows up again, even as background furniture or sending a letter, then sure, why couldn't he be?

 

A five year benchmark isn't going to happen though. His story ends in that one moment and we'll never know the extent of his trauma or how he recovers.

 

I understand your point, but we know that this is a world with magical mind-healing: among the Jedi, on Voss, and probably in other places. I really think that any Consular who cares about Felix (romanced or not) would make sure that he got the help he needed if he didn't seem to be recovering on his own.

 

We've never seen anything other than physical wounds or outside affects on the mind be healed. As far as I know, they can't magically fix a traumatized mind that's traumatized in mundane ways.

 

And Star Wars has no therapists.

[Lammia]

I don't have a consular that can run it, so I watched both versions (continue the romance, and break up) on YT.

 

And damn, the break up phrasing left me furious.

 

 

She essentially tells him: "You've been through hell, so I will help you heal by dumping you and breaking your heart on top of everything".

 

[AlaricSevGirl]

We've never seen anything other than physical wounds or outside affects on the mind be healed. As far as I know, they can't magically fix a traumatized mind that's traumatized in mundane ways.

 

And Star Wars has no therapists.

 

Yes we have, the jedi consular story.

[leviathanmirror]

Yes we have, the jedi consular story.

 

You'll have to remind me of who that was.

 

I know in the first part we see the Consular curing people with an outside influence on their minds. In the second act, the Consular fails to heal the president of Balmorra because his trauma wasn't related to outside influences. The third act has the Voss curing physical wounds by taking strength from the Consular. They also realign Arcann's alignment but that's not really healing a mundane form of trauma. Unless Felix goes dark side monster, it doesn't seem like it will be helpful.

[LeelaSeventen]

They are considered the healers/diplomats/historians where the knights are the fighters. Also since the consular knows everything about Felix through his story she would be the one best to help him. And according to him she is the only one he trusts. I am sure she will have the Voss help since they did help Arcann. Though not sure how Felix would feel about a redeemed arcann.

[leviathanmirror]

This has gotten away from me. My point really isn't that people shouldn't imagine that Felix will recover in time and things will be happy. I think most of us will imagine things go that way!

 

My point is that the final canon, in-game interaction with a beloved character leaves his story on such a sad note. For me, it's a disappointing way to end his story in canon.

[Estelindis]

Jenny, I agree with pretty much everything you say here (or at least think it all makes sense), so I'm just gonna hone in on this particularly interesting nugget:

What if Arcann ordered the luring/capture of Felix because he was trying to round up the Outlander's crew for 'reasons' (perhaps wanting them off the playing field to avoid them doing what Lana ended up doing?). The Knights would follow up on his orders, Arcann doesn't care much what happens with Felix after, Felix ends up among other prisoners and Jarak takes his usual 'pick of the litter' for his science games with Felix capturing his attention?

I have thought the same for quite some time.

Why wouldn't Arcann try to capture the Outlander's former crew to stop them from freeing her? Or simply put out a lure so that any of the former crew who wanted to free her would take the bait, essentially showing themselves as the kind of people he'd most need to imprison? I feel like it would've made so much more sense to have some companions have been captured that way, others lured in but they manage to escape (and reunions with them proceed the same way except for the mention of the rescue attempt), and others of more independent spirit (or with higher duties) resist the lure and carry on doing their own thing. I know it would've meant some people complaining that the captured companions got a unified return, compared to other companions' unique returns... but ultimately we've ended up in pretty much the same situation, where "some companions are more equal than others." This is really something that could've applied to plenty of companions beyond Felix and worked successfully.

There are definitely too many plotholes to count in certain situations, and not all returns have made sense to me. I can accept them on the surface but once you really put thought into it, a thing I can't seem to avoid doing, it unravels fast and the returns turn into a sieve lol.

Lol, sometimes I wish I could just enjoy the story without picking it apart. Like... I'm not a massive Star Wars buff beyond the Old Republic era. And I really like the two sequel movies so far. I've heard plenty of people complain about them and be miserable, and here I am just liking them and having a good time. Probably I just don't know enough to pick them apart! To me they mostly make sense - not completely, but enough to be getting on with. And emotionally I find them quite resonant. Being able to feel that way about Bioware stories would be nice. In fairness, as it relates to Felix's return, that is mostly how I feel. Not everything quite fits together, but it has so much of what I most wanted in a return that, for all my typing here, I'm actually mostly satisfied.

 

I am lucky that in my fiction, the sequel that opens up somewhere around the 3rd/4th year of the war, my main is without her crew already sans Lord Scourge so him aside I've not had to run around asking "Where's [name]" much. Little grateful for that, and I definitely do not 100% follow Bioware's narrative in my story. My main for instance is not the original Outlander.

Yep, I gotta read your stories. A quick google shows me where to start. I see >300k words ahead of me, so this'll keep me going for a while, lol.

[Estelindis]

I don't have a consular that can run it, so I watched both versions (continue the romance, and break up) on YT.

 

And damn, the break up phrasing left me furious.

 

 

She essentially tells him: "You've been through hell, so I will help you heal by dumping you and breaking your heart on top of everything".

I completely avoided that conversation branch. There's no universe in which my consular doesn't love Felix, so I didn't even want to see what that would look like. Someone else's consular, I suppose, is okay, so after seeing your post I looked up a YouTube scene... And, believe it or not, it wasn't as bad as I expected from your post. I mean, don't get me wrong: I'd never pick it. But it's not like she says "I can't love a broken man" or something horrific like that. Sometimes SWTOR drops the ball super-hard when it comes to romance rejections. I think what we get here is far from the worst.

Edited May 7, 2018 by Estelindis

[JennyFlynn]

Jenny, I agree with pretty much everything you say here (or at least think it all makes sense), so I'm just gonna hone in on this particularly interesting nugget:

 

I have thought the same for quite some time.

Why wouldn't Arcann try to capture the Outlander's former crew to stop them from freeing her? Or simply put out a lure so that any of the former crew who wanted to free her would take the bait, essentially showing themselves as the kind of people he'd most need to imprison? I feel like it would've made so much more sense to have some companions have been captured that way, others lured in but they manage to escape (and reunions with them proceed the same way except for the mention of the rescue attempt), and others of more independent spirit (or with higher duties) resist the lure and carry on doing their own thing. I know it would've meant some people complaining that the captured companions got a unified return, compared to other companions' unique returns... but ultimately we've ended up in pretty much the same situation, where "some companions are more equal than others." This is really something that could've applied to plenty of companions beyond Felix and worked successfully.

This would have been a plausible approach.

 

 

Given the amount of prisoners they did keep it would have made plenty sense for our companions to be caught up in that whole affair. Not all of them, naturally, but there are some who I believe would have turned to Zakuul upon hearing of this Outlander, having put two and two together. I am beyond a doubt certain that Lord Scourge for instance, given the JK story and the connection with the Emperor, would have darn well KNOWN this Outlander was his Jedi Knight and done what he could to free them, understanding the threat that still loomed.

 

 

Ah well, it is what it is nowadays. Despite my the dozens of holes, I try to take things as they are and just be relieved I've got/am getting my people back.

Lol, sometimes I wish I could just enjoy the story without picking it apart. Like... I'm not a massive Star Wars buff beyond the Old Republic era. And I really like the two sequel movies so far. I've heard plenty of people complain about them and be miserable, and here I am just liking them and having a good time. Probably I just don't know enough to pick them apart! To me they mostly make sense - not completely, but enough to be getting on with. And emotionally I find them quite resonant. Being able to feel that way about Bioware stories would be nice. In fairness, as it relates to Felix's return, that is mostly how I feel. Not everything quite fits together, but it has so much of what I most wanted in a return that, for all my typing here, I'm actually mostly satisfied.

I love both, the movie franchise, some of the animated TV series and obviously the game. I don't pick them apart too hard though I do find myself with questions. Currently what really stands out is the curious difference between the movies and the Old Republic. Take Kylo's scar for example--it really isn't that horrendous or deep but he's stuck with it whereas in SWTOR we have the Kaliyo chapter where we learn Zakuul droids can fix all those scars up for the rebelious teens. And that's thousands of years before the movies yet in the future, no such technology exists? Then there's the fact that Rey can see/sense people like Kylo and Luke at massive distances across the galaxy, Leia who isn't a fully fledged Force user can do the same and even sense Han's demise, while Han is Force-blind making it a one way street... yet, to touch back on KOTFE... our Jedi and Sith cannot sense out their companions, not even the Force using ones? We have Sith who can Force choke across massive distances but sensing our own friends/lovers out is something we somehow can't do? Guess that would have made it too easy lol.

 

 

Yep, I gotta read your stories. A quick google shows me where to start. I see >300k words ahead of me, so this'll keep me going for a while, lol.

Lol, well if you do, don't expect too much. The first one is really me finding my way with writing since it's the first thing I'd ever written and English is only my second language. I re-read it recently to clean up some glaring mistakes and there were parts where I cringed. But if you do try it out I hope you enjoy!

[Hudlar]

You'll have to remind me of who that was.

 

I know in the first part we see the Consular curing people with an outside influence on their minds. In the second act, the Consular fails to heal the president of Balmorra because his trauma wasn't related to outside influences. The third act has the Voss curing physical wounds by taking strength from the Consular. They also realign Arcann's alignment but that's not really healing a mundane form of trauma. Unless Felix goes dark side monster, it doesn't seem like it will be helpful.

 

Probably the closest case we have is Ako Domi, the Jedi who was imprisoned and tortured by the Empire in the Nar Shadaa planet story. Satele's email to the PC says:

I'm told you were responsible for returning Ako Domi to the Jedi Order. You have my sincerest thanks. I wish you to know that he is being cared for by our best healers--not only those of the body, but the spirit as well. Though he continues to profess he is beyond redemption, I can sense that the true Ako is not lost to us forever. The atrocities inflicted on him by the Empire can be undone, in time. It is when the world is darkest that we must see the light in others. Thank you for having such clear vision.

 

So it sounds like they do have therapists in the Jedi Order. Though it's true that Ako Domi did turn to the dark side as a result of trauma, so maybe Jedi healing only works on dark side monsters after all.

 

I'm afraid you're right that we're not going to see much of the companions after their return scenes, though I hope we'll at least get occasional emails. I would certainly like to see in-game evidence that Felix is recovering.

[LeelaSeventen]

The trooper does get an email from Aric when theron betrays you. Just commenting on how it happened again. I figured my trooper had pillow talk with aric and told him she wasn't sure if theron betrayed them. I would have thought they would have another convo after Nathema just because the betrayal is the first part of the trooper story.

 

Interesting, my warrior killed Quinn. She didn't get any letter from Vette. But then I did skip the second half of ET so the game might be a little confused. I will go back eventually and finish it since it is still in the mission que.

[Estelindis]

Rey can see/sense people like Kylo and Luke at massive distances across the galaxy, Leia who isn't a fully fledged Force user can do the same and even sense Han's demise, while Han is Force-blind making it a one way street... yet, to touch back on KOTFE... our Jedi and Sith cannot sense out their companions, not even the Force using ones? We have Sith who can Force choke across massive distances but sensing our own friends/lovers out is something we somehow can't do? Guess that would have made it too easy lol.

Seriously, why can't force-users wistfully look out to the stars and murmur "<LI Name>..."? Even if it just conveyed some sense that we cared about the fate of our LIs, that would be good, but we could choose to read it as a sign that we knew they were alive somewhere... I guess we could interpret Valkorion's presence as blocking our ability to sense all other bonds, like a roommate playing music at top volume blocking sounds from a greater distance.

 

Lol, well if you do, don't expect too much. The first one is really me finding my way with writing since it's the first thing I'd ever written and English is only my second language. I re-read it recently to clean up some glaring mistakes and there were parts where I cringed. But if you do try it out I hope you enjoy!

Lol! This is so human. When I go back to read stuff I wrote years ago, I cringe as well. And the further back I look, the greater the cringe gets... You can imagine how I feel looking at stuff I wrote twenty years ago! Especially when I think of the, er, tactful criticism my long-suffering friends tried to give at the time, lol. But the fact that we improve all the time doesn't deprive earlier work of all its merit. I will keep realistic expectations but I imagine I will still have a good time.

 

(This is to ignore for a moment the fact that you wrote fanfic in your second language, something I've never done. A great achievement.)

 

The trooper does get an email from Aric when theron betrays you. Just commenting on how it happened again. I figured my trooper had pillow talk with aric and told him she wasn't sure if theron betrayed them. I would have thought they would have another convo after Nathema just because the betrayal is the first part of the trooper story.

Yes, there is some content for class LIs going forwards... I just experienced that with my femTrooper myself. But I wonder if the companions whose returns were released after Umbara get the same. If they do, it sorta ends up punishing those of us who play all content as soon as it's released, because then we don't get reaction letters from our companions (since they weren't back at the time).

Edited May 7, 2018 by Estelindis

[leviathanmirror]

So it sounds like they do have therapists in the Jedi Order. Though it's true that Ako Domi did turn to the dark side as a result of trauma, so maybe Jedi healing only works on dark side monsters after all.

 

I'm afraid you're right that we're not going to see much of the companions after their return scenes, though I hope we'll at least get occasional emails. I would certainly like to see in-game evidence that Felix is recovering.

 

Yeah, I was joking. ^^ I'm just pointing out that there's really not a magic, instant fix for Felix. He has support so recovery is a good possibility. But sometimes even with support, people don't get better. So while I am very much in favor of recovery, I don't see it as the only possible outcome.

 

I do expect the once-an-expansion romance letter (that will address the current events of the story with maybe a small reference to his personal stuff) and maybe him loitering in the background of a scene or two. But this will be the last actual interaction/conversation with the character.

Edited May 7, 2018 by leviathanmirror

[Estelindis]

I'm just pointing out that there's really not a magic, instant fix for Felix. He has support so recovery is a good possibility. But sometimes even with support, people don't get better. So while I am very much in favor of recovery, I don't see it as the only possible outcome.

I don't think anyone claimed there's a magic, instant fix for him. My personal reading is that, over a long time, he'll get gradually better if he's supported by the consular and other people around them, and if events in the galaxy take a turn that he can feel hopeful about. I think he won't get better if the consular is callous to him and if there's no group he can support that he believes in.

 

We already see that Felix thinks the Alliance is good, but the Alliance also appears to be winding down. As such, we depend on future story to see how things might develop with him. If the Alliance dies, and he still has difficulties with both Republic and Empire, things might be tough. But I hold out hope that his bridges could be mended with the Republic in a good range of situations (again, over time, not instantly).

 

I suppose our discussion in this thread shows me that we have different feelings about how story is presented. It seems like, for you, what matters is the content delivered to us by the devs. Don't get me wrong: that matters to me too. But what I really like is when content gives us infrastructure around which we can imagine a range of possibilities. Consider, for example, one of Felix's vanilla romance letters. He tells us about a stupid action flick - the only thing they had to watch in one of his refugee camps as a young person - and how he'd like to share that with us. We don't get a cutscene of this, but from those few words I see a whole evening of shared, happy-nostalgic experience. Similarly, from this reunion, we don't explicitly see all the bad and good times they'll go through as they work through his trauma togehter, but I implicitly see that. That's how I work. If it's not how you work (I have some friends who don't really visualize things that way), then I appreciate how it would feel more lacking to you.

Edited May 7, 2018 by Estelindis

[leviathanmirror]

I don't think anyone claimed there's a magic, instant fix for him. My personal reading is that, over a long time, he'll get gradually better if he's supported by the consular and other people around them, and if events in the galaxy take a turn that he can feel hopeful about. I think he won't get better if the consular is callous to him and if there's no group he can support that he believes in.

 

If you back a page there are two mentions of Jedi healing/the Voss being a solution and probably more before that. Suggesting that Felix might not recover brought on a few responses of "but space magic!"

 

We already see that Felix thinks the Alliance is good, but the Alliance also appears to be winding down. As such, we depend on future story to see how things might develop with him. If the Alliance dies, and he still has difficulties with both Republic and Empire, things might be tough. But I hold out hope that his bridges could be mended with the Republic in a good range of situations (again, over time, not instantly).

 

It would be interesting to see how he copes with the Alliance collapsing. I hope he can come around from his hatred of the Republic too. For my light side Consular, they aren't perfect but they are better than the Sith Empire. It will hurt to choose them with Felix so angry though. I don't think it's a rational response on his part but trauma does things to you.

 

I suppose our discussion in this thread shows me that we have different feelings about how story is presented. It seems like, for you, what matters is the content delivered to us by the devs. Don't get me wrong: that matters to me too. But what I really like is when content gives us infrastructure around which we can imagine a range of possibilities. Consider, for example, one of Felix's vanilla romance letters. He tells us about a stupid action flick - the only thing they had to watch in one of his refugee camps as a young person - and how he'd like to share that with us. We don't get a cutscene of this, but from those few words I see a whole evening of shared, happy-nostalgic experience. Similarly, from this reunion, we don't explicitly see all the bad and good times they'll go through as they work through his trauma togehter, but I implicitly see that. That's how I work. If it's not how you work (I have some friends who don't really visualize things that way), then I appreciate how it would feel more lacking to you.

 

Oh no, I'm not unimaginative or unable to visual things. I use the canon as a jumping off point for all kinds of things I like to imagine but know we'll never see in canon. I mean, in my favorite version of events this never happens because my Consular who romances Felix isn't the Outlander and they were never separated.

 

I'm not sure how to make myself clearer though. This is Felix's canon 'goodbye' as it were. I wish BioWare had seen fit to give him more than severe PTSD. It's not the end of Felix's story for the players, we'll imagine and discuss and write all kinds of outcomes, but it feels kind of bad that this is his final note in game.

[Estelindis]

If you back a page there are two mentions of Jedi healing/the Voss being a solution and probably more before that. Suggesting that Felix might not recover brought on a few responses of "but space magic!"

Fair enough. I personally think Jedi healing would be a long and delicate process including "conventional" therapy. Voss healing is presented in more than one way, but the quickest of those has to be the Voss ritual with Arcann. That operates too quickly for my taste and isn't how I'd imagine things going with Felix. Still, I guess the writing in KotET ch 1 has kinda saddled us with that issue going forwards.

It would be interesting to see how he copes with the Alliance collapsing. I hope he can come around from his hatred of the Republic too. For my light side Consular, they aren't perfect but they are better than the Sith Empire. It will hurt to choose them with Felix so angry though. I don't think it's a rational response on his part but trauma does things to you.

I completely agree. Push comes to shove, the Republic is better than the Empire, and I hope that Felix could find it in himself to accept if we work with the Republic again - not necessarily because of instantly overcoming his feelings of abandonment, but because working with the Empire would be worse.

 

Felix's feelings are understandable, but I don't think we know remotely enough to have any sense of who was responsible for decision-making with regard to his fate. We know the Chancellor didn't support his mission to try to save the consular... I believe the chancellor was still Saresh at the time? She's chilling out in a jail cell on Odessen. Maybe part of his therapy can be talking to her, lol.

 

Oh no, I'm not unimaginative or unable to visual things. I use the canon as a jumping off point for all kinds of things I like to imagine but know we'll never see in canon. I mean, in my favorite version of events this never happens because my Consular who romances Felix isn't the Outlander and they were never separated.

If I can be clear, I wasn't trying to use the visualization thing as any kind of personal criticism. I only learned recently that some of my friends' brains work differently in this respect (e.g. when one is trying to remember details about an object she doesn't see it in her mind's eye), so I'm trying to be open to other people functioning in all kinds of ways.

 

Yeah, there are several characters in my legacy I just haven't done KotFE/ET with at all... Like my smuggler. I feel like she can just have adventures with Corso & Crew, lol. But my sage is my "canon" Outlander, so I have to accept

how things unfold with her and Felix being separated.

 

I'm not sure how to make myself clearer though. This is Felix's canon 'goodbye' as it were. I wish BioWare had seen fit to give him more than severe PTSD. It's not the end of Felix's story for the players, we'll imagine and discuss and write all kinds of outcomes, but it feels kind of bad that this is his final note in game.

No, you're very clear; perhaps I just haven't been picking you up correctly. If you're right that this is the last we ever hear of Felix in terms of game content, then it would be better for them to have given more content in this reunion, so we can maybe see them beginning to move forward with their lives together. (I mean, I always want more Felix content; frankly nothing would be enough to make me refuse any extra that was offered.) If we do get more content with him later, I think we can both be glad.

Edited May 7, 2018 by Estelindis

[JakRoanin]

My JC doesn't romance Felix, but I loved his return, it made me wish I could behead Jarak, but to me it makes perfect sense. I don't think it's the end for him, I think it's a new beginning.

[LeelaSeventen]

Do the newer alerts only happen if you finish the Eternal throne chapters. Or will new players get them earlier?

[Estelindis]

Do the newer alerts only happen if you finish the Eternal throne chapters. Or will new players get them earlier?

You need to have finished all the Eternal Throne chapters. If there are any other requirements, I don't know. (I had thought maybe Iokath would be needed for Felix but I guess not.)

My JC doesn't romance Felix, but I loved his return, it made me wish I could behead Jarak, but to me it makes perfect sense. I don't think it's the end for him, I think it's a new beginning.

Agree 100%. Jarak is lucky he met the end he did. My consular doesn't kill anyone callously, but if she'd known what he did to Felix that might have been the first time. As ways to gain her first ever dark side points would go, that'd be a good candidate.

Edited May 7, 2018 by Estelindis

[Hudlar]

If you back a page there are two mentions of Jedi healing/the Voss being a solution and probably more before that. Suggesting that Felix might not recover brought on a few responses of "but space magic!"

 

I didn't bring up the space magic to suggest that the Jedi or Voss could snap their fingers and fix all his problems (which I agree would be an unsatisfying story), but to point out that the equivalent of mental health care does exist in the SWTOR universe. For me, this makes it reasonable to believe that he has a very good chance of healing, given time and support.

 

It would be interesting to see how he copes with the Alliance collapsing. I hope he can come around from his hatred of the Republic too. For my light side Consular, they aren't perfect but they are better than the Sith Empire. It will hurt to choose them with Felix so angry though. I don't think it's a rational response on his part but trauma does things to you..

 

Yes, I'm not thrilled with the return to Republic vs Empire, but if my Consular has to choose, it will always be the Republic.

 

I'm not sure how to make myself clearer though. This is Felix's canon 'goodbye' as it were. I wish BioWare had seen fit to give him more than severe PTSD. It's not the end of Felix's story for the players, we'll imagine and discuss and write all kinds of outcomes, but it feels kind of bad that this is his final note in game.

 

Sure, this is completely understandable.

[leviathanmirror]

Fair enough. I personally think Jedi healing would be a long and delicate process including "conventional" therapy. Voss healing is presented in more than one way, but the quickest of those has to be the Voss ritual with Arcann. That operates too quickly for my taste and isn't how I'd imagine things going with Felix. Still, I guess the writing in KotET ch 1 has kinda saddled us with that issue going forwards.

 

I'm not sure the actual healing will be useful to Felix. It wasn't to the president of Balmorra. Mundane, non-Forcey or other brain bending things may make take it off the table (there's a Jedi on Alderaan who prevents a man from having his mind taken by the Killiks but that's resisting an outside force too). Therapy is probably the best bet unless they're trying to do something with the holocron. I kind of wonder if the Voss may be able to help with that. Would it be seen kind of like a poison that could be removed with sufficient strength?

 

Oof, same. I wish Arcann had a real redemption story and not a last minute alignment change.

 

I completely agree. Push comes to shove, the Republic is better than the Empire, and I hope that Felix could find it in himself to accept if we work with the Republic again - not necessarily because of instantly overcoming his feelings of abandonment, but because working with the Empire would be worse.

 

Felix's feelings are understandable, but I don't think we know remotely enough to have any sense of who was responsible for decision-making with regard to his fate. We know the Chancellor didn't support his mission to try to save the consular... I believe the chancellor was still Saresh at the time? She's chilling out in a jail cell on Odessen. Maybe part of his therapy can be talking to her, lol.

 

It's entirely possible they didn't know where he was. Or, awful as it is, didn't want to antagonize Arcann and the Eternal Fleet by staging a rescue for one soldier. There was probably potential for significant loss of life beyond him if the Republic tried anything. There's a lot more to it than just not rescuing him but I can totally see how he'd grasp for something to blame for what happened to him. Especially when he felt so abandoned.

 

If I can be clear, I wasn't trying to use the visualization thing as any kind of personal criticism. I only learned recently that some of my friends' brains work differently in this respect (e.g. when one is trying to remember details about an object she doesn't see it in her mind's eye), so I'm trying to be open to other people functioning in all kinds of ways.

 

Yeah, there are several characters in my legacy I just haven't done KotFE/ET with at all... Like my smuggler. I feel like she can just have adventures with Corso & Crew, lol. But my sage is my "canon" Outlander, so I have to accept

how things unfold with her and Felix being separated.

 

No worries. ^^

 

I just can't bring myself to take the original versions of a lot of my characters through the Knights stuff. My Felix romance Consular is a remake. I'm torn between "literally any new content for favorite characters" and "they just aren't part of this story" a lot.

 

No, you're very clear; perhaps I just haven't been picking you up correctly. If you're right that this is the last we ever hear of Felix in terms of game content, then it would be better for them to have given more content in this reunion, so we can maybe see them beginning to move forward with their lives together. (I mean, I always want more Felix content; frankly nothing would be enough to make me refuse any extra that was offered.) If we do get more content with him later, I think we can both be glad.

 

I'm glad you understand. I'm sorry if I came off as angry. ^^ More Felix is always good!

 

If I don't expect anything, I can't be disappointed, right? Still there's always a tiny bit of hope that there will be something more.

[Estelindis]

I'm not sure the actual healing will be useful to Felix. It wasn't to the president of Balmorra. Mundane, non-Forcey or other brain bending things may make take it off the table (there's a Jedi on Alderaan who prevents a man from having his mind taken by the Killiks but that's resisting an outside force too). Therapy is probably the best bet unless they're trying to do something with the holocron. I kind of wonder if the Voss may be able to help with that. Would it be seen kind of like a poison that could be removed with sufficient strength?

Of course the consular's special healing technique didn't work on the president of Balmorra, but I believe people have given other examples of jedi healing with hopeful prognoses (e.g. Ako Domi). But yes, it's possible that the only aspect of Felix's situation that the Force can treat directly is related to the holocron. I personally feel like Felix has enough problems without us rooting around there. Indeed, any such effort might remind him too much of the past five years. The holocron itself seems to have never caused him a problem - it's more how people have reacted to its presence. Maybe that'll change one day, but for now I don't think it's a priority.

 

I'm glad you understand. I'm sorry if I came off as angry. ^^ More Felix is always good!

 

If I don't expect anything, I can't be disappointed, right? Still there's always a tiny bit of hope that there will be something more.

You didn't come across as angry. I think we just weren't getting each other for a while. There's more than one way to look at these things and have different views is fine. As you say, we can at least agree that more Felix is good.

[Estelindis]

I have been thinking about the Republic angle in this story.

The more I reflect, the more sure I feel that 1) Felix's feelings of abandonment are completely understandable and shouldn't be glossed over, and 2) the Republic as a whole is not to blame. I remembered something in my life that feels analogous.

 

Years ago, I was in a group where one person had a toxic personality. (We were all sort of forced to put up with him because it was an open, local group.) After some months of general hostility, he verbally attacked me savagely in front of everyone. What upset me far more than the awful things he said was the fact that no one else stood up for me. I didn't really expect niceness from him. But from everyone else, people who got on with me well, I thought someone might say "she's not like that, you're being unfair." The fact that no one disagreed out loud made me feel abandoned, like they didn't care (or maybe even thought he was right). Ultimately, that guy was the one who attacked me; they were innocent. But their inaction hurt me more than his action because I expected better from them. (For what it's worth, they did stand up to him somewhat later; maybe initially they were just stunned like I was.)

 

I think that's how Felix feels about the Republic after his ordeal. The people who experimented on him are the ones actually responsible for his suffering. But he's a soldier of the Republic, not of Zakuul. He fought for the Republic and expected the Republic to have his back. His friends not helping him strikes more at his heart than strangers torturing him.

 

This leaves Felix in a strange place. As long as the consular's part of the Alliance, he can support a group he believes in. But the Alliance is breaking apart and losing its independence. Once that happens fully, I don't think he'll want to join the Empire but he also won't want to fight for the Republic. I think that only after a long period of healing might he be able to accept that 1) the Republic's inaction was painful, but 2) the Republic didn't subject him to those years of experiments. And, even if he does manage to come to some kind of peace with that, I think it's always going to hurt to some degree.

 

If the consular supports the Empire because of what happened to him, to me that's a fall. (Assuming she hadn't "fallen" before this.) An interesting thing about Felix's romance is that, unlike the JK romances at launch (patched subsequently), it has always been possible to romance him fully light-sided, openly and not hiding it from the jedi. Their connection is wholesome and healthy. If this event turned one or both of them towards the Empire, I think it would actually be a well-written, sophisticated fall from grace, as well as a kind of corruption of the original state of their relationship (assuming it was originally open and LS). It would be a far more understandable and human turn of events than a lot of the "falls" written over Star Wars history. I don't think anyone can convince me supporting the Empire for this reason would be the morally correct course of action. But it would certainly be interesting.