Please bring back chapters for story content rather than flashpoints

[AngFour]

 

Nah, flashpoints are the way to go for future game content as well as most story, you can still easily do it solo even if you are a new player (due to support droid)...

 

The new flashpoints don't have Jesus Droid. Worse still, for the story part, you're forced to have a specific companion who may not have a very high rank. My IA was fine with Temple because Temple was my companion to begin with so she was returning at Rank 10. My JK, if I could stomach the thought of running through the awful story again, never met Temple and will never use Temple beyond that flashpoint, so Temple is Rank 1 and it would be a waste to give her companion gifts for the one thing she's mandatory for the one time I would be forced to do it to progress any further in the story.

[Damask_Rose]

If they manage to make 6.0 comparable to SoR I will be over the moon! I wish they would clarify that they were talking about FA PLUS SoR and not just FA. Intro story advanced in flashpoints leading up to a full story expansion is one thing, all of the story in flashpoints would be remarkably lame.

 

Forged Alliance story flashpoints had 2-3 times the story content than the traitor "story" flashpoints and the story elements inside the flashpoints were repeatable. If they are going to keep going the route of delivering story in flashpoints, they really need to justify calling them "story" flashpoints. Less than 10 minutes of story, including the intros and outros, really doesn't cut it.

 

While I did not particularly like the story in the FE/ET chapters or the way that story was told, it was worlds better than the tiny drip of story we got after that. Each chapter was at least 30 minutes of story, not counting mob fights. The flashpoint bits are less than 10 minutes each. RotHC & SoR had about 1.5-2 hours of story content each. Going back to that seems like a good compromise to me, as long as it's a decent story and goes back to their older story telling techniques. (Please god, no more cutting away from our characters!) And make companion customizations work from the get go please?

 

If people really find these flashpoints to be such engaging, repeatable content, then why is Bioware bending over backwards trying to force people into them? They shouldn't need to use gimmicks like locking strongholds or schematics behind multiple runthroughts if people naturally want to run them multiple times because they are fun.

[Damask_Rose]

Flashpoints get more mileage out of the game than chapters. It progresses the plot and adds another dungeon to the roster, which is evergreen content,

 

Really anyway, is there so much difference doing a story mode 'chapter' over doing a 'flashpoint' in solo mode? They both take you to a couple of locations, advance the plot, and offer absolutely no challenge to speak of.

 

That's kind of like a solo player saying Uprisings are plenty good enough for small group content and DvL World bosses are plenty good enough for large group content. They are after all evergreen group content right? Not much different than flashpoints and raids right?

 

If you find the above to be ludicrous because you think flashpoints and raids are much more involved, in-depth content than uprisings and world bosses, then you know how story players view your comparison of a chapter to a "story" flashpoint. Ludicrous.

[AngFour]

If people really find these flashpoints to be such engaging, repeatable content, then why is Bioware bending over backwards trying to force people into them? They shouldn't need to use gimmicks like locking strongholds or schematics behind multiple runthroughts if people naturally want to run them multiple times because they are fun.

 

I don't know why, but this particular thing you said made me think of Grand Moff Kilran and how cool he was as an NPC on the early game flashpoints. I still like running Black Talon/Esseles on my new Alts because of him. (I know he's in later ones, too, but I just made a new Alt so the first flashpoint just came to mind).

 

It boils down to the fact that the story just isn't engaging. And worse yet, the story itself (the cut scenes and such) aren't repeatable. So as a player I felt really disconnected from the entire thing. It felt like it was a bad play performed by understudies rather than a smooth production that I'd want to see again. Edit: Probably because all the NPC's were doing the talking and doing the "cool stuff" instead of our PC. Our PC stood there dumbly for most of it.

Edited April 7, 2018 by AngFour

[AscendingSky]

To me there is a huge difference. The chapters had a lot of story content and were designed around story, which makes them fun to me. The flashpoints have very little story content, and, as you say, the combat isn't that great (mostly trash mobs, sometimes with high hp) in the story part at least. So, for the story flashpoints, they have taken out much of the part I play them for (story) and only left the trash mobs and such, which makes them very disappointing/boring to play for me.

 

Are you kidding? What chapters did you play? Most of the chapters (pretty much all of the ones in FE and the majority of the ones in ET) were nothing but wave after wave of unavoidable trash mobs, most with stuns or knockbacks. Stealthers couldn't even skip past them, their cloak was always penetrated. At least in flashpoints you can skip some trash either with stealth or by moving very carefully around. The fact the chapters were more broken up by 30 second cutscenes doesn't change the fact they were nothing but a trash mob slog with maybe one miniboss at the end with a single mechanic.

 

That's one of the big reasons I don't replay chapters: they're so boring and frustrating to get through for the few minutes of story content. I'd rather just watch the cutscenes on YouTube and not waste hours killing scores of skytroopers.

Edited April 7, 2018 by AscendingSky

[Azerdayne]

Respectfully, I couldn't disagree more with the OP. I started playing this game 5 years ago with the intent to play an MMO, and I applaud any/all efforts to get us back to big, open worlds. While I enjoyed the Kotfe/Kotet story chapters the first time I played them, even then, I disliked that they cannot be run with friends, are not part of a larger planet/galaxy in which I am free to move around, and there was almost nothing to explore (2 or 3 sort of hidden codex entries?)

 

While SOR story felt too short (and the planets felt a bit empty), I think the fix for this is putting more things to discover and more repeatable missions on a big beautiful planet like Rishi, not sending me down endless hallways to kill trash mobs between cut-scenes.

 

I would also suggest that a big part of the problem with the side missions and repeatables on Rishi (and to some extent Yavin and even Makeb) is that the game doesn't offer enticing rewards beyond the reputation vendor. Once you have what you want there, those missions don't feel rewarding anymore. If they keep this UC currency for gear, offering a few for repeatables like the ones on Rishi would be a step in the right direction.

 

The leveling process felt WAY to fast during the past three level increases. Increasing character power is the primary goal of pretty much all gameplay, other than simply having fun by playing. Leveling up and unlocking new abilities is always satisfying. The pacing on Makeb was pretty good, but people didn't like the story. The pacing in SOR was crazy fast ( a day or two to hit the new cap). Galactic Command seems like a hollow attempt to offer the "thrill" of leveling, but there's been little new content, and no real increases in power (just upgraded gear now necessary for the old content).

 

All of that to say, story chapters will never be released in the quantity and speed necessary to retain a thriving subscription playerbase if that is all that is being released. People need semi-freqeuent, new repeatable content (FP, OPs, PvP, GSF, dailies) with semi-frequent infusions of big new less-repeatable content (chapters or new planets with mission arcs). Big new planets that can be visited and explored outside of "chapters" have the advantage of also allowing repeatable missions, world bosses, events (ala BH or Rakghoul), and of course datacrons ( it's never too late to bring back crystal shards and let us forge new level 70+ relics: new datacrons wouldn't have to offer stat boosts & new ones used for relic forging wouldn't have to be legacy). Also, planets can have new content added into them later, as we've seen with Bounty Contract, Rakghoul, and alliance alerts. If the devs are going to go to the trouble to make a city in the clouds, it would be nice if it were a place on the galactic map we could visit again, rather than a location gated behind a single on-rails story chapter that will never have any content added into it.

 

TLDR: Open world planets offer a platform for story and anything else the devs are willing to put there, and can be "upgraded" later with new conent. While instanced solo-chapters (while fun and sometimes really cool) don't lend themselves to group-play or further, future development. The playerbase of this game is divided (into who-knows-what percentage) of folks that want solo content and folks that want group content. It therefore makes more sense to me to create open worlds with mission arcs, as it can then more easily cater to both groups of players.

[Daezihang]

That's kind of like a solo player saying Uprisings are plenty good enough for small group content and DvL World bosses are plenty good enough for large group content. They are after all evergreen group content right? Not much different than flashpoints and raids right?

 

If you find the above to be ludicrous because you think flashpoints and raids are much more involved, in-depth content than uprisings and world bosses, then you know how story players view your comparison of a chapter to a "story" flashpoint. Ludicrous.

 

No. Let's keep within the confines of my comparison shall we? The difference between specifically chapters and flashpoints is critical.

Flashpoints are more future proof as engaging group content - once you've exhausted the story aspect - than chapters are.

You are not going to argue with me about importance of story, because I fully appreciate that aspect. However, after doing that content dozens of times the actual mechanics and gameplay are rather more important.

 

Chapters are not designed to be played as a group. Flashpoints are, and they are also designed with a solo mode.

 

You may say "Well, make new chapters more group friendly". In that case the distinction between the two really is starting to blur isn't it. However, it is currently the case that a chapter is primarily a solo part of the main story. That isn't true for flashpoints.

 

If there isn't an option to replay solo flashpoints with the story fully intact, then I would agree that should be available.

[Damask_Rose]

No. Let's keep within the confines of my comparison shall we? The difference between specifically chapters and flashpoints is critical.

Flashpoints are more future proof as engaging group content - once you've exhausted the story aspect - than chapters are.

You are not going to argue with me about importance of story, because I fully appreciate that aspect. However, after doing that content dozens of times the actual mechanics and gameplay are rather more important.

 

Chapters are not designed to be played as a group. Flashpoints are, and they are also designed with a solo mode.

 

You may say "Well, make new chapters more group friendly". In that case the distinction between the two really is starting to blur isn't it. However, it is currently the case that a chapter is primarily a solo part of the main story. That isn't true for flashpoints.

 

If there isn't an option to replay solo flashpoints with the story fully intact, then I would agree that should be available.

 

Well yes, if you are only comparing chapters to story flashpoints for their group content worthiness, flashpoints make much better group content. I thought you were trying to compare the story content of chapters and flashpoints. And in that comparison the flashpoints are dreadful. That is the portion my comparisons were trying to make. While chapters make bad group content, flashpoints make bad story content. Story flashpoints aren't a successful blend of the two. They failed to be the Reese's Peanut Butter Cups of SWtOR.

 

Keep in mind that many of us consider replaying stories far more engaging than repeating story lite content. For me, and many like me, a flashpoint or a raid is interesting exactly once. After that they are no more interesting than running old heroics or daily areas. Just grinds for rewards rather than fun.

Edited April 7, 2018 by Damask_Rose

[DWho]

...If there isn't an option to replay solo flashpoints with the story fully intact, then I would agree that should be available...

 

This is the case for all of the story flashpoints that have been released post 5.0. You cannot repeat them with the story intact.

Edited April 7, 2018 by DWho

[drug_cartel]

Well yes, if you are only comparing chapters to story flashpoints for their group content worthiness, flashpoints make much better group content. I thought you were trying to compare the story content of chapters and flashpoints. And in that comparison the flashpoints are dreadful. That is the portion my comparisons were trying to make. While chapters make bad group content, flashpoints make bad story content. Story flashpoints aren't a successful blend of the two. They failed to be the Reese's Peanut Butter Cups of SWtOR.

 

Keep in mind that many of us consider replaying stories far more engaging than repeating story lite content. For me, and many like me, a flashpoint or a raid is interesting exactly once. After that they are no more interesting than running old heroics or daily areas. Just grinds for rewards rather than fun.

 

/agree. I have run the entire KOTFE storyline from start to finish more times than I have run any individual Operation. These days one of my bread and butter things to do in the game is just buying Boosted characters to jump straight to Knights and start the most exciting part of the story. In contrast, being a part of a regular Ops group just feels like a part-time job where I have to log on at a certain time and block off a huge chunk of time to something that feels way more like Work than it does Fun.

 

The story-driven Chapters made this game leagues better than any other MMO I've ever played, largely because it got away from so many of the most annoying parts of MMOs.

[McBaal]

The thing i dont understand is why the devs dont seem to plan to combine the finished storylines in a new chapter. Including all the dialogues, cinematics and flashpoints. To me this doesn't appear to be that much work to do, everything is already there.

1) Iokath chapter as post KOTET continuation and leading into the whole traitor arc

2) The traitor arc itself, meaning Umbara, Copero and the upcoming Nathema Flashpoints.

 

This way group players could play the new content as traditional FPs while solo / story focused players could repeat the FP as part of a chapter (including repeated reunion with missing LIs).

But as far as i understood Charles and Eric in Vulkks interview none of this is planned though they did acknowledge that a considerable amount of players would like that. But right now it is not on their to do list. I think this is stupid, just stupid. I am a solo player and my characters are bored to death. I dont want to create more and more alts just to replay the latest content, i want to experience it with my main characters, test out what happens with other dialogue choices etc. I just don't understand why the devs still didn't do it, it appears as such a big improvement with so little actual work to do by the devs.

What bothers me even more is that the new FPs were all bugged AF in story mode. Most of the cinematics didn't even play when i ran them with my main characters, while the quest was finished and done. My Sith warrior never met Theron on Copero, my Sorceress never saw Theron escape from Umbara. I had to watch the cinematics on Youtube

 

So please Bioware, make all of the content repeatable as a chapter!!!

Edited April 7, 2018 by McBaal

[Cowoline]

The thing i dont understand is why the devs dont seem to plan to combine the finished storylines in a new chapter. Including all the dialogues, cinematics and flashpoints. To me this doesn't appear to be that much work to do, everything is already there.

1) Iokath chapter as post KOTET continuation and leading into the whole traitor arc

2) The traitor arc itself, meaning Umbara, Copero and the upcoming Nathema Flashpoints.

 

This way group players could play the new content as traditional FPs while solo / story focused players could repeat the FP as part of a chapter (including repeated reunion with missing LIs).

But as far as i understood Charles and Eric in Vulkks interview none of this is planned though they did acknowledge that a considerable amount of players would like that. But right now it is not on their to do list. I think this is stupid, just stupid. I am a solo player and my characters are bored to death. I dont want to create more and more alts just to replay the latest content, i want to experience it with my main characters, test out what happens with other dialogue choices etc. I just don't understand why the devs still didn't do it, it appears as such a big improvement with so little actual work to do by the devs.

What bothers me even more is that the new FPs were all bugged AF in story mode. Most of the cinematics didn't even play when i ran them with my main characters, while the quest was finished and done. My Sith warrior never met Theron on Copero, my Sorceress never saw Theron escape from Umbara. I had to watch the cinematics on Youtube

 

So please Bioware, make all of the content repeatable as a chapter!!!

 

Agreed!

[MishaCantu]

So, I watched the interview by Vullk and what I heard them say was that they were going to do future story more like SoR than KotXX. SoR was my favorite expansion, and I like that it was a middle ground between chapters and the current story with fps model.

 

I liked the story heavy element of chapters, but I didn't like how it took me out of the broader game and auto chose my companions. I'd much prefer the middle ground that SoR, and (even though I hate it) Hutt Cartel were.

 

I agree with you. SOR was much more enjoyable, to me, than the long, drawn-out chapters where I couldn't even choose what companion to use. Although chapters were story heavy, and I do love story, they weren't my character's story so much as being a bit player in keeping up with the Valkorians. Way too much face time for Arcann and Vaylinn. I actually didn't care much for the ROTHC expansion, but it served its purpose.

 

As long as everything is repeatable, I'm ok with SOR type story telling.

Edited April 7, 2018 by MishaCantu

[Lunafox]

I don't mind the flash points so long as they are part of a bigger story, like Shadow of Revan. I don't want my story told exclusively through flashpoints, as others have said; it doesn't allow you to pause and take a break, and the story mode isn't repeatable. I'd like to be able to experience the chapter/flashpoint with story intact more than once.

 

The only reason there isn't much replayability for the KOTFE/ET stuff, is that a) As my son who resubbed the other day told me, 'it makes ZERO sense for BH, Agents, Troopers and Smugs' and because b)It's boring af, because it's more focussed on the Valkorion's. (his words, not mine, but I agree).

 

It's not that people don't love/want story, they just don't like THAT particular part of the story. Vanilla is head and shoulders better than KOTFE/ET. It was more intriguing, cause less face time with the villains, we didn't see Baras plotting against us, so it was so much cooler and surprising for the SW, as an example.

 

Future chapters that focus more on the player and their importance, and that hold story value for all, will be far better received, which essentially means you have to do a Force story and a Shooter story, better yet, if they're for IMP and PUB too.

Edited April 7, 2018 by Lunafox

[Tahana]

If by chapters you mean what we've been recently getting which is a single player game in which I see no one.. No thanks. Not a fan of the FP stuff either, would prefer if it revered back to 1.0 story telling.

[DWho]

If by chapters you mean what we've been recently getting which is a single player game in which I see no one.. No thanks. Not a fan of the FP stuff either, would prefer if it revered back to 1.0 story telling.

 

You see no one inside the phased areas of chapters (unless you are grouped up for the chapter - which only progresses one character's story) just like in 1.0. You do see people running around Zakuul when you are there outside the phased areas. In the Flashpoints, run in "story" mode, you see no one else. The chapters themselves are really like light flashpoints, extremely linear, choices in replays don't matter, etc

[IoNonSoEVero]

Eh, I don't care about seeing other people (and please spare the "this is an MMO!!!!!!" mantra). In fact it was just lovely to be in so many instanced areas in KOTFE and KOTET where I didn't have to worry about other people getting in my way or ninja-ing the objectives. I'm all for more chapters like that. It's one of the few nice things about the flashpoint format; one doesn't have to deal with other players.

[Tashia]

from hearing Vulk's interview --- I doubt very, very seriously if they ever bring the chapters back ....

we will just have to do with what little story they give us from now on ( and no I am not happy )

[juliushorst]

2. Many of the recent flashpoint bosses have mechanics that seem more intended for Ops; not for story players. Please keep in mind that there are many play styles. I don't play Ops and I don't want to contend with an Ops boss or something with 1 million HP like the non-nerfed Copero bosses had.

Actually some chapter bosses (like Arcann or Vaylin) had a lot more mechanics than most Solo \ Story flashpoints (where you can leave the bosses to the droid and companion).

4. If there were substantial cut scenes *between* the flashpoints like they did with Forged Alliances it might be one thing. But getting two minutes of non-repeatable story followed by an unenjoyable hour-long flashpoint doesn't work so well.

Chapters were very combat-oriented too, just with a few more cutscenes.

But having an option to re-play a flashpoint with or without cutscenes would be cool.

[Estelindis]

I like chapters. I miss chapters. I wish we had chapters right through the current storyline and going forwards.

[Tashia]

I have a feeling they quit doing chapters because of all the negative comments and feedback --- they kind of said that in the interview - or at least I heard it

sometimes it is best if we temper our feelings a bit in the future -- because as they say --- be careful what you wish for...

[MikeCobalt]

+1 I like this idea

[IoNonSoEVero]

Actually some chapter bosses (like Arcann or Vaylin) had a lot more mechanics than most Solo \ Story flashpoints (where you can leave the bosses to the droid and companion).

 

Chapters were very combat-oriented too, just with a few more cutscenes.

But having an option to re-play a flashpoint with or without cutscenes would be cool.

 

I don't really see it with Vaylin and Arcann. Neither of those were really complex. Vaylin, you just stay with your back to the wall, interrupt the knockback and stay in the purple circle and she's dead pretty quickly. With Arcann you pick up the shield and sock him, you have the buffs from your weapon, and every few minutes he interrupts the fight with a cut scene so he can whine at you a little more so you get a breather. Not too bad.

 

Compared to the spider tank in Umbara with its constant adds...yeah, that was nothing.

 

One of the issues with the Copero bosses in particular was the HP they had, which was more in line with veteran mode and ops. A story mode boss should not have an HP of a million. They finally nerfed them but they should never have been that way to start.

 

And for 7 out of 8 classes they were expected to do that essentially solo since the companion they were forced to use was a Level 1.

[LamiaKan]

+1

I like chapters. I think it's designed as replayable which is great. And I like the difficulty modes. Because while I solo I'd like some challenge too. As for the recent flashpoints, I don't understand why they don't make the cutscene version repeatable? It shouldn't be that difficult to implement.

[ExarSun]

Thirding this. (+1)

 

Fourthing this! FP as story sucks big...as a condement to story sure...but as the main tool for story - NO NO NO!