Conquest feedback with some assumptions

[olagatonjedi]

In an attempt to get some true feedback and ideas for improvement, let's first make a few assumptions that can be drawn from recent changes, and then discuss ways to improve the conquest system with small changes.

 

Assumptions:

It should take 3-5 days of 1-2hrs for a player to complete their personal

A player should be able to finish personal conquest on 1-1.5 toons, on average.

Group activities will give more points than solo activities

Active solo content (i.e. heroics, event tasks) will give more points than non-active solo content (i.e. crafting)

 

If these assumptions are in place as a base for conquest (somewhat already stated by the devs), what changes would you make to improve the conquest system? Please be detailed, and understand that relative terms (like fun, and idiotic, and bad, and good) dont give an identifiable way to fix the problem.

 

Post away, please.

[olagatonjedi]

**reserved for additional content**

[Storm-Cutter]

You appear to be at the start of planning conquest with your outline.

 

- We are at the third or fourth iteration of the process.

 

- This was the list that the studio should have started with and used as a basis.

 

- Basically it's too much of an embarrassing climb-down to start over- so they'll go on tinkering for a year or two until the complaints die down or people stop doing conquest or leave altogether. c.f. CXP & gear drop rates.

 

---------

 

Apparently spending months tinkering with something that everyone just accepted is preferable to making new stuff for people to do.

- Coz nothing brings in punters and keeps them interested in your game more than messing with stuff that wasn't all that broken. - New content makes people complain and quit in droves. / sarcasm.

Edited April 4, 2018 by Storm-Cutter

[olagatonjedi]

You appear to be at the start of planning conquest with your outline.

 

- We are at the third or fourth iteration of the process.

 

- This was the list that the studio should have started with and used as a basis.

 

- Basically it's too much of an embarrassing climb-down to start over- so they'll go on tinkering for a year or two until the complaints die down or people stop doing conquest or leave altogether. c.f. CXP & gear drop rates.

 

---------

 

Apparently spending months tinkering with something that everyone just accepted is preferable to making new stuff for people to do.

- Coz nothing brings in punters and keeps them interested in your game more than messing with stuff that wasn't all that broken. - New content makes people complain and quit in droves. / sarcasm.

If we wish to see improvements, there are some things we need to accept that arent going away, just like GC. If we can start past the issues from the other threads that are basically keeping it from progressing, hopefully some more positive changes can be made.

 

I'm near certain that nobody liked when red traffic lights were added to roadways, but it turned out to be a good thing after people got past the initial acceptance period.

Edited April 4, 2018 by olagatonjedi

[TUXs]

Conquest needed some tweaks, but overall, it was in a decent spot before...

 

Here's where I believe it went wrong:

 

• it was a fun "additional" activity

• it was a time killer with a reward

• it was incentive to push yourself to do that one additional GSF/PvP match to complete your weekly to get the reward

• it was a reason to do GF FPs

• it was a reason to drag an alt through an Operation you otherwise don't really want to do

• it was a reason to play alts

• it was a reason to log in one more time to complete your points

• it was a reason to blow some mats and get a reward

• it was a 'list' of something to do, which is crucial in MMOs to avoid that "I'm bored" mentality

• it was an entire guild activity

• it was a credit sink

• it was a material sink

• it was a solo activity

• it was a reason to run Heroics on CR300 toons

• it was MANY things to all different types of players

 

Sadly, with the way points are now and the ridiculous legacy limitations, it has become a one toon only reward or a full time activity...it's no longer something extra to do...it's now a full time activity that's no longer a fun incentive to do a little more, because there's no longer anything 'little' you can do to make a difference.

[commanderwar]

conquest probably my least played thing on the game. I will however voice my opinion since this is guild vs guild I don't think conquest should be entirely legacy friendly the way works now and before 5.8.

 

Before you shoot me let me explain. not everyone is a sub and not everyone buys character slots. which means guilds that are mostly sub or buy character slots are AWLAYS going to win against those guilds that are F2P, preferred or don't buy slots. it's unfair advantage against F2p I have in fact seen guild recruitment asking for Subs only on the fleet.

 

Solution

 

1. Keep it the way it is BUT, let it be legacy based and let the points and the goal be legacy. So you only get one reward, but you increase the reward, and increase the goal 15,000 to 40,000 or something. The way it would work is it would be balance you be rewarded points by how many characters you have. if you have more then 4 characters you would have to go on the 4 characters (even if you have 20 characters It would still be 4) to achieve your goal easily, if you have 3 then you have to do you have to do all of them, ect...

 

2. second solution is add more conquest objectives to all areas of the game so players can't do the same thing over again on different characters. Example:

 

Solo activities,

solo killable champion NPCS would spawn, you have to kill a champion, destroy 10 crates, kill 20 sandmen, find the holocron on tatoorine, find 10 jawas, ect...

 

flashpoints

don't die, do x flashpoint in x amount of minutes, do bonus objective, ect..

 

add objectives for all crew skills

build, 10 speeder, build 10 relics, build 10 med packs, build 10 guns, light saber, ect..

 

operations

kill x boss in ax amounts of minutes, heal in a group, tank in a group, do mechanic x in a group

 

PVP

kill 10 Player in a group on x planet, get a 100 iokath currencies from players, ect...

 

these are just my opinion on how it should work.

Edited April 4, 2018 by commanderwar

[TUXs]

conquest probably my least played thing on the game. I will however voice my opinion since this is guild vs guild I don't think conquest should be entirely legacy friendly the way works now and before 5.8.

 

Before you shoot me let me explain. not everyone is a sub and not everyone buys character slots. which means guilds that are mostly sub or buy character slots are AWLAYS going to win against those guilds that are F2P, preferred or don't buy slots. it's unfair advantage against F2p I have in fact seen guild recruitment asking for Subs only on the fleet.

 

Solution

 

1. Keep it the way it is BUT, let it be legacy based and let the points and the goal be legacy. So you only get one reward, but you increase the reward, and increase the goal 15,000 to 40,000 or something. The way it would work is it would be balance you be rewarded points by how many characters you have. if you have more then 4 characters you would have to go on the 4 characters (even if you have 20 characters It would still be 4) to achieve your goal easily, if you have 3 then you have to do 3 characters you have to do all of them, ect...

 

2. second solution is add more conquest objectives to all areas of the game o players can't do the same thing over again. Example:

 

Solo activities,

solo killable champion NPCS would spawn, you have to kill a champion, destroy 10 crates, kill 20 sandmen, find the holocron on tatoorine, find 10 jawas, ect...

 

flashpoints

don't die, to x flashpoint in x amount of minutes, do bonus objective, ect..

 

crafting to objectives to all crew skills

build, 10 speeder, build 10 relics, build 10 med packs, build 10 guns, light saber, ect..

 

operations

kill x boss in ax amounts of minutes, heal in a group, tank in a group, do mechanic x in a group

 

PVP

kill 10 Player in a group on x planet, get a 100 iokath currencies from players, ect...

 

these are just my opinion on how it should work.

No offense, but this is no better than the crap we have now.

[kodrac]

Props on the pretty green bullet points, TUXs.

 

[TUXs]

Props on the pretty green bullet points, TUXs.

 

I did it to make you happy

[Rheshalea]

conquest probably my least played thing on the game. I will however voice my opinion since this is guild vs guild I don't think conquest should be entirely legacy friendly the way works now and before 5.8.

 

Before you shoot me let me explain. not everyone is a sub and not everyone buys character slots. which means guilds that are mostly sub or buy character slots are AWLAYS going to win against those guilds that are F2P, preferred or don't buy slots. it's unfair advantage against F2p I have in fact seen guild recruitment asking for Subs only on the fleet.

 

I'm feeling too lazy to check, but with the server mergers, the amount of characters players can have went up a LOT. I think pure F2P now have 8 character slots, and Preferred have 12? 18? I don't remember, but I do know it's more characters than just about any player would have time or will to do Conquest with, no matter which system, old or new.

I honestly don't think sub/pref/F2P has any effect on this particular part of the conundrum.

[Andryah]

You are not going to get much of a positive response here since you have been actively antagonizing in every thread about the topic in the forum.

 

Note: I'm not saying anything you did was over the top or against the rules... only that this is a passionate topic and is the primary petarde of choice against the studio at this moment in time.. and as such... people do not listen to reason and will very often lash out and attack any comment that disagrees rather then actually discuss differing viewpoints in a fairly objective manner. You have to pick your meta battles wisely in this forum.

 

Honestly.. you and BRKMSN should just go in a corner of the forum and make your own personal PvP thread.

 

Anyway..... my feedback has already been made, but let me briefly recap:

 

1) they promised one set of elements to a renewed Conquest, but delivered something completely different.. and this is now an objectively established patter of behavior by the studio. They need to communicate more openly and transparently, and they need to establish a formal process for gathering focus group feedback from a cross section of the player based BEFORE actually committing to any changes.

 

2) Given their established pattern of promise one thing and then do something different.... and then "monitor" things for a while....I fully expect them to slow-walk changes to bring the system back out of the ditch... probably over a period of months.

 

3) Conquests is just one facet of this MMO.. and as a guild... we play many facets of the game and do not get so caught up in any one facet such that if they change it or screw it up.. we are left lost and hopeless. We simply will not play Conquests unless/until they fix it sufficiently to make it worth playing and having fun with again. If that is never, then so be it. In any event... the studio will gather absolutely no data from my guild other then a clear understanding that we used to play Conquests and no longer do (and yes.. they can run and extract such data if they even care to).

Edited April 4, 2018 by Andryah

[olagatonjedi]

Conquest needed some tweaks, but overall, it was in a decent spot before...

 

Here's where I believe it went wrong:

 

• it was a fun "additional" activityIt still has this

• it was a time killer with a rewardIt still has this

• it was incentive to push yourself to do that one additional GSF/PvP match to complete your weekly to get the rewardIt still has this

• it was a reason to do GF FPsIt still has this

• it was a reason to drag an alt through an Operation you otherwise don't really want to do

• it was a reason to play alts

• it was a reason to log in one more time to complete your pointsIt still has this

• it was a reason to blow some mats and get a rewardIt still has this

• it was a 'list' of something to do, which is crucial in MMOs to avoid that "I'm bored" mentalityIt still has this

• it was an entire guild activityIt still has this

• it was a credit sinkIt still has this

• it was a material sinkIt still has this

• it was a solo activityIt still has this

• it was a reason to run Heroics on CR300 toonsIt still has this

• it was MANY things to all different types of playersIt still has this

.

I appreciate your feedback. I have added to your poat to show that not much has changed regarding what you had and what you have now. As you even alluded to, it's different to dofferent players.

[olagatonjedi]

Solution

 

1. Keep it the way it is BUT, let it be legacy based and let the points and the goal be legacy. So you only get one reward, but you increase the reward, and increase the goal 15,000 to 40,000 or something. The way it would work is it would be balance you be rewarded points by how many characters you have. if you have more then 4 characters you would have to go on the 4 characters (even if you have 20 characters It would still be 4) to achieve your goal easily, if you have 3 then you have to do you have to do all of them, ect...

 

2. second solution is add more conquest objectives to all areas of the game so players can't do the same thing over again on different characters. Example:

 

Solo activities,

solo killable champion NPCS would spawn, you have to kill a champion, destroy 10 crates, kill 20 sandmen, find the holocron on tatoorine, find 10 jawas, ect...

 

flashpoints

don't die, do x flashpoint in x amount of minutes, do bonus objective, ect..

 

add objectives for all crew skills

build, 10 speeder, build 10 relics, build 10 med packs, build 10 guns, light saber, ect..

 

operations

kill x boss in ax amounts of minutes, heal in a group, tank in a group, do mechanic x in a group

 

PVP

kill 10 Player in a group on x planet, get a 100 iokath currencies from players, ect...

 

these are just my opinion on how it should work.

I like some of those objectives if they were to be added in, but in regards to legacy/alts, remember we are assuming BW doesnt want players to outrageously inflate point totals by people with more time and alts than your average player.

 

That said, I believe a legacy based system could still work with alts, if players were to manually select which toon/guild all of their legacy points would go to. That would allow slightly more freedom with which toon to play, but keep the numbers deflated enough for competitive balance.

 

Appreciate the feedback, though!

Edited April 4, 2018 by olagatonjedi

[olagatonjedi]

You are not going to get much of a positive response here since you have been actively antagonizing in every thread about the topic in the forum.

 

Note: I'm not saying anything you did was over the top or against the rules... only that this is a passionate topic and is the primary petarde of choice against the studio at this moment in time.. and as such... people do not listen to reason and will very often lash out and attack any comment that disagrees rather then actually discuss differing viewpoints in a fairly objective manner. You have to pick your meta battles wisely in this forum.

 

Honestly.. you and BRKMSN should just go in a corner of the forum and make your own personal PvP thread.

 

Anyway..... my feedback has already been made, but let me briefly recap:

 

1) they promised one set of elements to a renewed Conquest, but delivered something completely different.. and this is now an objectively established patter of behavior by the studio. They need to communicate more openly and transparently, and they need to establish a formal process for gathering focus group feedback from a cross section of the player based BEFORE actually committing to any changes.

 

2) Given their established pattern of promise one thing and then do something different.... and then "monitor" things for a while....I fully expect them to slow-walk changes to bring the system back out of the ditch... probably over a period of months.

 

3) Conquests is just one facet of this MMO.. and as a guild... we play many facets of the game and do not get so caught up in any one facet such that if they change it or screw it up.. we are left lost and hopeless. We simply will not play Conquests unless/until they fix it sufficiently to make it worth playing and having fun with again. If that is never, then so be it. In any event... the studio will gather absolutely no data from my guild other then a clear understanding that we used to play Conquests and no longer do (and yes.. they can run and extract such data if they even care to).

Appreciate the feedback. If you come up with any suggestions based on the assumed premises, please feel free to add them to the conversation.

[Ibokagain]

Conquest needed some tweaks, but overall, it was in a decent spot before...

 

Here's where I believe it went wrong:

 

• it was a fun "additional" activity

• it was a time killer with a reward

• it was incentive to push yourself to do that one additional GSF/PvP match to complete your weekly to get the reward

• it was a reason to do GF FPs

• it was a reason to drag an alt through an Operation you otherwise don't really want to do

• it was a reason to play alts

• it was a reason to log in one more time to complete your points

• it was a reason to blow some mats and get a reward

• it was a 'list' of something to do, which is crucial in MMOs to avoid that "I'm bored" mentality

• it was an entire guild activity

• it was a credit sink

• it was a material sink

• it was a solo activity

• it was a reason to run Heroics on CR300 toons

• it was MANY things to all different types of players

 

Sadly, with the way points are now and the ridiculous legacy limitations, it has become a one toon only reward or a full time activity...it's no longer something extra to do...it's now a full time activity that's no longer a fun incentive to do a little more, because there's no longer anything 'little' you can do to make a difference.

 

This 1000X TUX ^

[Ibokagain]

You are not going to get much of a positive response here since you have been actively antagonizing in every thread about the topic in the forum.

 

Note: I'm not saying anything you did was over the top or against the rules... only that this is a passionate topic and is the primary petarde of choice against the studio at this moment in time.. and as such... people do not listen to reason and will very often lash out and attack any comment that disagrees rather then actually discuss differing viewpoints in a fairly objective manner. You have to pick your meta battles wisely in this forum.

 

Honestly.. you and BRKMSN should just go in a corner of the forum and make your own personal PvP thread.

 

Anyway..... my feedback has already been made, but let me briefly recap:

 

1) they promised one set of elements to a renewed Conquest, but delivered something completely different.. and this is now an objectively established patter of behavior by the studio. They need to communicate more openly and transparently, and they need to establish a formal process for gathering focus group feedback from a cross section of the player based BEFORE actually committing to any changes.

 

2) Given their established pattern of promise one thing and then do something different.... and then "monitor" things for a while....I fully expect them to slow-walk changes to bring the system back out of the ditch... probably over a period of months.

 

3) Conquests is just one facet of this MMO.. and as a guild... we play many facets of the game and do not get so caught up in any one facet such that if they change it or screw it up.. we are left lost and hopeless. We simply will not play Conquests unless/until they fix it sufficiently to make it worth playing and having fun with again. If that is never, then so be it. In any event... the studio will gather absolutely no data from my guild other then a clear understanding that we used to play Conquests and no longer do (and yes.. they can run and extract such data if they even care to).

 

Agree as well Anda great post!

[Loadsamonie]

I'm surprised that people are still complaining about this, and a system that really has no glaring problems to boot.

[KendraP]

I'm surprised that people are still complaining about this, and a system that really has no glaring problems to boot.

 

No glaring problems? How about the total domination by large guilds on small planets? The fact im now slowed to a trickle on my guildship expansion since i dont have 500 people capping a week?

 

Glad their focus is on destroying everything i enjoy. Waiting to hear how you're destroying pvp tanks (and possibly tanks in general) Musco.

Edited April 5, 2018 by KendraP

[olagatonjedi]

I'm surprised that people are still complaining about this, and a system that really has no glaring problems to boot.

No system is perfect, imo. There are problems with the new system, but I'm hoping people can get past the alt-o-holic phase, and look for other ways to improve the system.

 

I agree with finding a way to segregate large vs large, medium vs medium, etc, BUT, it's harder than one might think because of people not playing during certain weeks, you may see a large guild go from 250 active to 50 during the year, and they would still be forced to compete in the large tier because roster body total. There is no reliable system in that regard that will be fair for everyone, so the goal should be fairness for the majority or average.

[Solaece]

TUX' post put things perfectly. Hit it right exactly. Almost to conquest? Okay. One more PvP match. Help a Guildie complete? Well. Ok. I guess I can do one more flashpoint.

 

Now. Eh. Do the weekly and call it done. Btw I have completed the first two collections in guild wars 2 for the legendary weapon Astralaria. What a gorgeous goal. Why can't we have cool things like this?

[Stellarcrusade]

Assumptions:

It should take 3-5 days of 1-2hrs for a player to complete their personal

A player should be able to finish personal conquest on 1-1.5 toons, on average.

 

 

I think perhaps part of the problem is that those assumptions need to change. We cannot start with a failed basis like these two you list. Lets replace them with this, and then we can approach a fix to the system.

 

1.) It should take the same amount of time for a player to complete their personal as it did in the old system: Quick burst 1-2 hours total, slow grind repeatables like all-pvp, all-gsf was 3.5 hrs. Never would it take longer than 3.5 hrs to get a char to PC.

2.) A casual player that plays a few hours a night should be able to finish as many as 7 characters to PC in 6 days.

 

I think there are many ways to fix the above, and if you did, the new system would be as good as the old system, really the new system HAS to be as good, for players, as the old one or it has to be considered a failure.

 

Lets add another:

3.) The old system gave people something to do on any character at any time that they felt was "worth" the time to do. The new system comprises of 1 or 2 things you'd actually feel was worth it, and a bunch of stuff just plugging up the list that no-one will really do. The new system all items on the list should be worth doing.

[TUXs]

I think perhaps part of the problem is that those assumptions need to change. We cannot start with a failed basis like these two you list. Lets replace them with this, and then we can approach a fix to the system.

 

1.) It should take the same amount of time for a player to complete their personal as it did in the old system: Quick burst 1-2 hours total, slow grind repeatables like all-pvp, all-gsf was 3.5 hrs. Never would it take longer than 3.5 hrs to get a char to PC.

2.) A casual player that plays a few hours a night should be able to finish as many as 7 characters to PC in 6 days.

 

I think there are many ways to fix the above, and if you did, the new system would be as good as the old system, really the new system HAS to be as good, for players, as the old one or it has to be considered a failure.

 

Lets add another:

3.) The old system gave people something to do on any character at any time that they felt was "worth" the time to do. The new system comprises of 1 or 2 things you'd actually feel was worth it, and a bunch of stuff just plugging up the list that no-one will really do. The new system all items on the list should be worth doing.

I absolutely agree - I really like your point #3 as well...I very much agree!!! It gave players random "little" (key word being little) things to do to push to that PC goal.