Why NO KILL option on Ashara?

[IoNonSoEVero]

I guess it is a bit fancier than what we are used to getting yeah. I honestly thought people found it silly as there were so many jokes made about it, like "arcann is knitting" Didn't know people actually liked it.

Sure would be cool if other companions did so as well. It's still only a top however, and it isn't exactly the same as the full armor set you can get off the CM, but almost identical. I think you still get it if you don't decide to do the romance with him, but I could be wrong on that one. Maybe it'll be something they'll continue to do in the future.

 

It's not something i'd put on any of my characters, but yeah, I've seen people wearing it. To me it's got weird implications, the Knights were underlings to Arcann.

 

I wasn't aware it was just the top and not the whole armor, but IMHO it's still an example of Arcann being treated differently in the writing because he's someone's personal favorite. I can't think that in 2 years Lana, Theron or Koth never would have bought the commander a present. I'd like to hope it's something they will expand to all the companions in the name of fairness.

[IoNonSoEVero]

I completely agree with you here. I've written books and I've written for TV. It is unfortunate but sometimes the business end of it (i.e., the bosses) have to take precedent on what happens in a story, and the writer is powerless to prevent it, even when said story event goes contrary to written lore/laws within the story universe. The unfortunate side effect of that is the writer gets blamed for the stupidity and not the people calling the shots. I have seen both ends of that. The examples I listed are not that. They are examples of the actual writer run amok to their own selfishness and left unchecked, whether by the powers that be or by their reader/viewer-base. I could list many such examples but I won't get all into that; it's sort of veering off-topic a bit.

 

Yup. Sometimes the Powers That Be decide a character is going to do something or the series is going to take a specific turn, and the writers can be spluttering and explaining up and down that it's not canon or realistic within the set parameters, and it still happens. And then they're the fall guys.

 

But the writers running amok on their own is exactly why I think there's always a need for QC and good editors. There should be oversight and an objective voice to counter when a writer becomes too subjective. In this case I think someone at Bioware should have looked at these companion returns and what was done with Arcann from KOTET onward and sent them back to the table for revisions. No one writer on a video game *should* have an opening to do what was done with Arcann or to write consistently OOC companion returns, but it wasn't checked. So I blame Bioware for this above all.

[Estelindis]

I'm not going to personally bash this writer because that isn't cool.

Agreed.

The fact that Arcann gives players expensive presents, as well - you're telling me that the other love interests would never think of giving their partner something nice, but the selfish despot who took over the galaxy and oppressed it for his own jollies is going to hand over Cartel Market armor?

Well it's not exactly the same as the cartel version. (Of course, some folks may actually view this as worse, given that letting Arcann survive is the only way to get this exact model.) As well as the vanilla companions giving us three gifts each at the successful conclusion of their romance arcs, there are some other things earlier in the story, like Aric Jorgan giving the female Trooper a lovely jeweled necklace to congratulate her on a promotion. But it's true that I don't remember any other companion giving us an item we can literally put on our character and have everyone see as visible. Maybe it's something more of them could do in the future!

Edited April 14, 2018 by Estelindis

[Eshvara]

It's not something i'd put on any of my characters, but yeah, I've seen people wearing it. To me it's got weird implications, the Knights were underlings to Arcann.

 

I wasn't aware it was just the top and not the whole armor, but IMHO it's still an example of Arcann being treated differently in the writing because he's someone's personal favorite. I can't think that in 2 years Lana, Theron or Koth never would have bought the commander a present. I'd like to hope it's something they will expand to all the companions in the name of fairness.

 

Yeah, I guess I can see why people would find it unfair! You'd think longer standing relationships would have more opportunities to give you something nice! I haven't worn mine as I don't particularly like that armor, but the gesture was to me at least extremely sweet! So it's only natural that others would want something like that too. It makes it kind of personal, in a nice way, if you're into that!

I hope they'll do it for the others as well!

 

Agreed.

 

Well it's not exactly the same as the cartel version. (Of course, some folks may actually view this as worse, given that letting Arcann survive is the only way to get this exact model.) As well as the vanilla companions giving us three gifts each at the successful conclusion of their romance arcs, there are some other things earlier in the story, like Aric Jorgan giving the female Trooper a lovely jeweled necklace to congratulate her on a promotion. But it's true that I don't remember any other companion giving us an item we can literally put on our character and have everyone see as visible. Maybe it's something more of them could do in the future!

 

Corso gives you flashy! (?) I think that kinda counts?

Edited April 14, 2018 by Eshvara

[Estelindis]

Corso gives you flashy! (?) I think that kinda counts?

OMG yes! How could I forget Flashy?? Corso, I'm sorry!

 

Edit: Actually, he gives a romanced Smuggler Sparkles as well. I still use that on my lady smug. Seriously, what's wrong with me??

Edited April 14, 2018 by Estelindis

[JennyFlynn]

The Arcann romance AFAIK was 100% her. I read elsewhere that she had campaigned heavily for it before it was even considered. by fans and was a big Arcann fan.

 

What I wonder now is how much that influenced what was done with Arcann in KOTET. We've talked before about how unrealistic Arcann's 'redemption' and subsequent universal acceptance on the Alliance base was. How much of that was due to the writer's personal preference for the character? That was sacrificing realism and justice for favoritism, as well as making an abusive and genocidal character sympathetic.

Oh I'm aware. The Arcann romance was mostly written long before it even received the 'go ahead', so I suppose there is some moderation of their work done in terms of "We can/cannot do this". It just feels that's also about the extent of quality control because Charles, as the head of the department and a man who's been involved with SWTOR writing since launch, should not be approving some of the written content used for the reunions. He should know Corso, Andronikos, Risha etc. better than that but perhaps it was a matter of just getting it over and done with and quality took a backseat. I also can't see him as the sort of 'boss' who slaps his own writers on the wrist and makes a lot of corrections, he strikes me as the praise and constant support type instead.

 

As for redemption, there wasn't really any unless you count "Bibbity bobbity boo now you're a nice guy!". Gifts... eh, our old LI's did send us some in the mail every now and then, mere companion gift stuff you then give back to them but hey. Though it does feel Arcann's presented with perks each time. First in order to save Senya, you have to save him and now you get a piece of armor for participating in his romance alert, even if you reject him.

 

The TLDR version: a good writer knows how to balance their OWN thoughts and desires for their work with what SHOULD happen because of public interest.

100% all of your post.

 

Writing for something like a video game. TV show or comic is markedly different than writing a novel, in that you are writing FOR an audience and also writing within specific parameters. You can take a character someplace new, but every comic and video game and series does have a 'bible' that describes how things are supposed to be,

 

Even if a character is your favorite you don't get to suspend both disbelief and the rules of that universe to suit your own personal preferences and predilections, and that is what the failure is here.

That's exactly it. Now, I can understand that in the course of six years our companions have grown. They've had their own adventures and experiences that may have well changed parts of who they are or used to be, and that's fine. But to change them so drastically, make them so unlike themselves isn't right. We're supposed to be reuniting with the person we fell in love with, not a stranger wearing their face because the writer decided to make some changes to their personality.

 

I'm not looking to attack Samantha directly. Sure she's made statements in that interview that I strongly disagree with when it comes to being a writer for a game, and it is blatantly obvious she did put forward some of her own ideals at the expense of our PCs, and shipped her own favorite, which I don't feel you should be doing but on the other hand, those above her should have put a halt to the material and asked for better. Both sides are responsible for this situation.

 

I do also realize there are limitations. Perhaps a writer has written out a 15-minute wonderful scene but it includes animations or a setting the art department cannot seem to put together, or the bosses above feel it's too much and a lot of the material ends up being cut down into something of a TLDR. So, no, it isn't all on her nor is she solely to blame but I do feel she has made some poor choices. Nothing against her as a person, I'm sure she's lovely and nice, she sure sounded it when replying to my Tweets but that doesn't mean I have to laud her work.

[Damask_Rose]

The Arcann romance AFAIK was 100% her. I read elsewhere that she had campaigned heavily for it before it was even considered. by fans and was a big Arcann fan.

 

Yep. She did say in the article that she loves the enemies to lovers trope.

 

What I wonder now is how much that influenced what was done with Arcann in KOTET. We've talked before about how unrealistic Arcann's 'redemption' and subsequent universal acceptance on the Alliance base was. How much of that was due to the writer's personal preference for the character? That was sacrificing realism and justice for favoritism, as well as making an abusive and genocidal character sympathetic.

 

In my more charitable moments, I think his redemption would have been much more developed if they hadn't compressed KOtET & KOX into 1/4 of what it was originally designed to be. Perhaps they are having the same issue with the companion returns: trying to compress a full chapter into 2 minutes?

 

Yes, they were short. I can't speak to Elara's but with Quinn, personally as a fan, I could have done without regurgitating his 'betrayal' stuff from years ago. That said, it wasn't too horrific in terms of the dialogue. Biggest faults lay in the brevity of it, the failing customization and the eff up they made with his name.

 

I found Elara's return to be much worse than Quinn's. My 100% light side trooper's BFF was down right hostile to her for no reason. By the end I was ready to put her out of my misery.

[Estelindis]

In my more charitable moments, I think his redemption would have been much more developed if they hadn't compressed KOtET & KOX into 1/4 of what it was originally designed to be. Perhaps they are having the same issue with the companion returns: trying to compress a full chapter into 2 minutes?

This seems likely. It makes me really sad that those of us who waited the longest are going to get the shortest returns. We're the ones who deserve more. All the same, "in my more charitable moments" I think that the BW writers are probably sadder than any of us about how this has turned out.

[JennyFlynn]

This seems likely. It makes me really sad that those of us who waited the longest are going to get the shortest returns. We're the ones who deserve more. All the same, "in my more charitable moments" I think that the BW writers are probably sadder than any of us about how this has turned out.

Not sure if they are sadder but I don't think this is what Charles' had wanted originally. He tends to chuckle and laugh a lot during Livestreams when story and companions come up, and it appears he is just laughing things off but to me it looks more like a nervous laughter. Like he knows there are harsh critiques, he is well aware of the displeasures, he knows it isn't what players or he himself wanted, he also knows why it isn't but cannot say so he's just in an awkward position each time the issue's brought up and you get this sort of uncomfortable/nervous grimacing and laughing.

 

I would have liked to see what we were supposed to be getting if plans hadn't been altered and rushed, I'd like to know what he had in mind for everything in terms of story and reunions and I'd like him to level with us and have an honest conversation about these things but I'm aware that's likely just not possible. On top of that, the last time he was brave enough to post on the forums with an in-depth look at a character (Valkorion), war broke out basically and Charles doesn't strike me as the type of person who's good at handling such confrontational and controversial things, which is okay, not everyone is.

[Estelindis]

I would have liked to see what we were supposed to be getting if plans hadn't been altered and rushed, I'd like to know what he had in mind for everything in terms of story and reunions and I'd like him to level with us and have an honest conversation about these things but I'm aware that's likely just not possible. On top of that, the last time he was brave enough to post on the forums with an in-depth look at a character (Valkorion), war broke out basically and Charles doesn't strike me as the type of person who's good at handling such confrontational and controversial things, which is okay, not everyone is.

Once all the companion returns are done and the game moves on to the next storyline, I would love to know what the writers fully intended. And yes, the previous experience mightn't incentivize them to want to share that with us... Sometimes sharing might-have-beens can seem non-constructive because it makes what we actually got look worse. But for me it restores some faith in the writing team if I can look at what they actually wanted to do and think "yes, I would've loved that."

[JennyFlynn]

Once all the companion returns are done and the game moves on to the next storyline, I would love to know what the writers fully intended. And yes, the previous experience mightn't incentivize them to want to share that with us... Sometimes sharing might-have-beens can seem non-constructive because it makes what we actually got look worse. But for me it restores some faith in the writing team if I can look at what they actually wanted to do and think "yes, I would've loved that."

Yep, exactly that. It would be a bit disappointing to know what could have been but, I'd still much rather know and just swoon over it in my head or something and yes, have my faith in the team restored. To know they did intend to give us more and better, that their heart is in this as much as ours even if for <reasons> they couldn't deliver. I'd love to sit down with Charles and have a serious, open and good conversation about this.

[IoNonSoEVero]

Oh I'm aware. The Arcann romance was mostly written long before it even received the 'go ahead', so I suppose there is some moderation of their work done in terms of "We can/cannot do this". It just feels that's also about the extent of quality control because Charles, as the head of the department and a man who's been involved with SWTOR writing since launch, should not be approving some of the written content used for the reunions. He should know Corso, Andronikos, Risha etc. better than that but perhaps it was a matter of just getting it over and done with and quality took a backseat. I also can't see him as the sort of 'boss' who slaps his own writers on the wrist and makes a lot of corrections, he strikes me as the praise and constant support type instead.

 

As for redemption, there wasn't really any unless you count "Bibbity bobbity boo now you're a nice guy!". Gifts... eh, our old LI's did send us some in the mail every now and then, mere companion gift stuff you then give back to them but hey. Though it does feel Arcann's presented with perks each time. First in order to save Senya, you have to save him and now you get a piece of armor for participating in his romance alert, even if you reject him.

 

That's exactly it. Now, I can understand that in the course of six years our companions have grown. They've had their own adventures and experiences that may have well changed parts of who they are or used to be, and that's fine. But to change them so drastically, make them so unlike themselves isn't right. We're supposed to be reuniting with the person we fell in love with, not a stranger wearing their face because the writer decided to make some changes to their personality.

 

I'm not looking to attack Samantha directly. Sure she's made statements in that interview that I strongly disagree with when it comes to being a writer for a game, and it is blatantly obvious she did put forward some of her own ideals at the expense of our PCs, and shipped her own favorite, which I don't feel you should be doing but on the other hand, those above her should have put a halt to the material and asked for better. Both sides are responsible for this situation.

 

I do also realize there are limitations. Perhaps a writer has written out a 15-minute wonderful scene but it includes animations or a setting the art department cannot seem to put together, or the bosses above feel it's too much and a lot of the material ends up being cut down into something of a TLDR. So, no, it isn't all on her nor is she solely to blame but I do feel she has made some poor choices. Nothing against her as a person, I'm sure she's lovely and nice, she sure sounded it when replying to my Tweets but that doesn't mean I have to laud her work.

 

All of this. One can criticize a writer's work and the direction of the game's story without ripping into them personally; that's the important thing.

 

I personally think it's a good thing when the writers love the universe and the game, and love the characters they write. Vette's romance writer was on Reddit a while back and she had some very insightful things to say about how she approached the romance and Vette's relationship with the Sith Warrior, and it was good stuff. Charles seems very enthusiastic about the characters.

 

But yes, as we're all saying, there's a difference between loving the characters and bending the rules of the galaxy for them, as seems to be happening in Arcann's case.

 

With the companion returns I feel like they are throwaways; they're saying "well, people aren't going to stop complaining until we get the characters back; toss something together" and no care is being taken to ensure the returns are true to the characters or even take two seconds to consider their history.

 

I'm still salty that Vette and Risha were BFFs and mentioned each other in their stories, but there was no reunion for them. That's something that anyone who knew either character could have had fun writing, and they could have made it great. If Vette's alive, she comes with you to get Risha. If she's dead, you tell Risha and she's sad. There's so much they could have done.

 

With Elara Dorne, you WORK WITH HAVOC SQUAD. WHY wasn't that mentioned? Like ever?" Hey, Elara, I heard you're from Havoc Squad! I've had a few of your colleagues working with me. Want to say hi to them?"

 

So much missed opportunity at every turn.

[IoNonSoEVero]

Once all the companion returns are done and the game moves on to the next storyline, I would love to know what the writers fully intended. And yes, the previous experience mightn't incentivize them to want to share that with us... Sometimes sharing might-have-beens can seem non-constructive because it makes what we actually got look worse. But for me it restores some faith in the writing team if I can look at what they actually wanted to do and think "yes, I would've loved that."

 

If they ever want to release even the outline of how a three-season KOTE- would have gone, I'd love to read it.

[jasonhunter]

Funny... I was playing as inquisitor today on Taris and at the enclave I was given the option to kill Ashara.

[MikeCobalt]

I just keep thinking all the rest of the companion reunions are gonna be like this; Unfulfilling after two plus years wait, insulting to the player and with a political agenda. Is BW so desperate they cant find a writer that understands "Preset Roles, Ongoing Rapports and the Player pays the Bills"? Its kind of disheartening knowing the comps arnt and wont be so happy to be back as we were to get them back.

[QuinlanSaathis]

Funny... I was playing as inquisitor today on Taris and at the enclave I was given the option to kill Ashara.

 

It might have looked like that but it wasn't

[Paulsutherland]

I am Darth Imperious, Lord of the Sith Voodoo division, I've fought in more conflicts than I care to count, I've taken down Jedi Masters, absorbed ghosts, fought giant robots, I survived the annihilation of Ziost, I was present during Darth Marr's fake death.

 

I've fought alongside other Acolytes (She survived all the way through the Korriban FP) who have given me their best when our academy was attacked by the Jedi. Whereas you couldn't be bothered to seek me out?

 

I took down the Sith Emperor, and this Togruta wants to be my equal?! I endured your light sided Sith Empire blasphemy for too long ... but fear not Ashara, you will be helping me.

 

Q: Is Togruta blood a valid alternative for the Vaylin resurrection plot? I've got my altar ready!

Edited April 15, 2018 by Paulsutherland

[bubbalooau]

what kind of sicko would want to kill sweet innocent ashara?!?

[Lunafox]

what kind of sicko would want to kill sweet innocent ashara?!?

 

A dark side V Sith, portrayed by me. That's what kind.

[MikeCobalt]

The Sith Inquisitors ship is not a "Democracy" (No Ship is, ever). With this reunion the Player takes their new Place *Under the lowest ranked *Companion in that class story. The Default alignment for the Inquisitor is Dark (Light and neutral are the Niche alignments) Dark equates to Sith politics. While I applaud BioWares abilities to write all 3 styles of play through originally, these Reunions are written and played out with seemingly only one avenue and typically "Anti Player" and catering often to a Niche path not the direction Most players expect (please a few, not the most possible).

 

Ashara has done *Nothing* in the six years they were apart, while the S.I. already attained feats and wielded powers believed impossible not counting the entirety of KotXX and then comes Ashara, the observer, Nothing doer and they have the Power to "Handle" the Players S.I. (whens the last time a Gerbil ever told a Human "How its gonna be" then Prove it?") The S.I. is the Player and the Player pays the bills here My S.I. is Dark 4 and I've never said I would Kill Ashara but as the Sith are "Not a Democracy" she can A- Abide and resume her previous role (Observer), B- Leave or C- Start a Fight there is no "Reasonable, SWTOR proven way she could win (Survive).

[QuinlanSaathis]

The Sith Inquisitors ship is not a "Democracy" (No Ship is, ever). With this reunion the Player takes their new Place *Under the lowest ranked *Companion in that class story. The Default alignment for the Inquisitor is Dark (Light and neutral are the Niche alignments) Dark equates to Sith politics. While I applaud BioWares abilities to write all 3 styles of play through originally, these Reunions are written and played out with seemingly only one avenue and typically "Anti Player" and catering often to a Niche path not the direction Most players expect (please a few, not the most possible).

 

Ashara has done *Nothing* in the six years they were apart, while the S.I. already attained feats and wielded powers believed impossible not counting the entirety of KotXX and then comes Ashara, the observer, Nothing doer and they have the Power to "Handle" the Players S.I. (whens the last time a Gerbil ever told a Human "How its gonna be" then Prove it?") The S.I. is the Player and the Player pays the bills here My S.I. is Dark 4 and I've never said I would Kill Ashara but as the Sith are "Not a Democracy" she can A- Abide and resume her previous role (Observer), B- Leave or C- Start a Fight there is no "Reasonable, SWTOR proven way she could win (Survive).

 

Agreed, I wanted her to submit and return also.

Oh and this is not a gender thing, Xalek submitted, Quinn submitted, Khem submitted, Talos submitted, Pierce suibmitted how many more examples do you want....

[MikeCobalt]

They all have, in one way or another "Before" this writer came along. The Player is the heart, the lead, the center of their clique that is how this and every other game is / was conducted. Since these reunions the player has been OverPowered, Insulted and made to feel "Less Then" with more of the same on its way (The writer has commented the player doesn't have to feel "Great"). The Companions for well over two years has been a recurring issue (People wanted them back "As we Knew them") and this entire "Companion Issue" could've been not only Resolved but even a highly regarded event with each return but this did not return what the players (Customers) remembered / wanted, infact it widened the open wounds created with the launch of KotFE. Without a "Reversion" now it will Never Go back to what the SWTOR players liked and remain a sore spot indefinitely.

[QuinlanSaathis]

They all have, in one way or another "Before" this writer came along. The Player is the heart, the lead, the center of their clique that is how this and every other game is / was conducted. Since these reunions the player has been OverPowered, Insulted and made to feel "Less Then" with more of the same on its way (The writer has commented the player doesn't have to feel "Great"). The Companions for well over two years has been a recurring issue (People wanted them back "As we Knew them") and this entire "Companion Issue" could've been not only Resolved but even a highly regarded event with each return but this did not return what the players (Customers) remembered / wanted, infact it widened the open wounds created with the launch of KotFE. Without a "Reversion" now it will Never Go back to what the SWTOR players liked and remain a sore spot indefinitely.

 

Shes gone now and good riddance. Perhaps with enough noise from us the rest of her work will be scrapped, she cannot protest against it.

[Paulsutherland]

what kind of sicko would want to kill sweet innocent ashara?!?

 

That would be me.

[Estelindis]

Shes gone now and good riddance. Perhaps with enough noise from us the rest of her work will be scrapped, she cannot protest against it.

You want them to throw away work that's already done? Exactly what about the slow trickle of content we've been receiving makes you think that's a good idea?