Why NO KILL option on Ashara?

[JennyFlynn]

The Future of the "Sith Inquisitor", Just a doodle,

 

The Class Story.

https://imgur.com/HLWYhr1

 

What its like from now on.

https://imgur.com/6Wur08l

Lol, clever work.

[DefenderTwo]

The Future of the "Sith Inquisitor", Just a doodle,

 

The Class Story.

https://imgur.com/HLWYhr1

 

What its like from now on.

https://imgur.com/6Wur08l

 

Heh, that got me to chuckle.

[Lunafox]

I don't remember seeing Zahn working on the new flashpoint. He did, however, had at least some input on the A Traitor Among the Chiss flashpoint, if we look at small nods to overall Chiss lore and politics there. I remember from the livestream last year that he was, possibly, going to help out more on these TOR-projects.

 

I listened to his interview/livestream too and was aware of all his work on A Traitor in the Chiss and how he created Copero and the Chiss lore, I just wasn't sure how far that was extended, was it for the whole arc about the Traitor, or just that one part of it that required the Chiss stuff.

[Lunafox]

The Future of the "Sith Inquisitor", Just a doodle,

 

The Class Story.

https://imgur.com/HLWYhr1

 

What its like from now on.

https://imgur.com/6Wur08l

 

*claps* Clever lol. You're not wrong.

[JennyFlynn]

The thing is, every author will have their preference of course and we all want to write our own story, with our own vision and that is fine. At least, if you're the author of a book or fan fiction.

 

Writing for a game as this one is an entirely different matter, especially when you come in to voice existing and established characters. You cannot just smack your own stamp onto things, pursue your vision for what should be and you cannot be ignorant of the player's wishes. Do you have to follow each demand? Of course not, never, but you should always strive to provide story content the majority of your player base is going to enjoy. They're the ones paying and players who are put off by the story will walk away which I assume is the opposite of what the company would want.

 

I can understand writing Ashara to stand up for herself, absolutely, but Ashara is not playing this game nor paying a sub--the Sith Inquisitor is. Ashara is a product of fantasy intended to cater to the player base, not the other way around.

 

And, really, if you want to do things your way, give everything your own flavor, go write some fan fiction but do not abuse your job as a writer for the game to satisfy your own fantasies.

[Asmodesu]

I feel like what is happening is they are focusing on the non player characters, making them grow as they feel the character would, and completely forgetting that the player character is a more important character then the npc's. So it's flipped around since SoR even, that everything after has focused on a batch of non-player characters as the spotlight / priority focus instead. And it feels like it's getting worse. I don't necessarily think the writing is bad personally, but rather that this type of focus is in the wrong media form.

It's not on one person either so I don't agree with any attacks on one person/writer, it's the entire teams' focus now. And has been for years, it's just being more blatantly obvious now. In my opinion.

Edited April 14, 2018 by Asmodesu

[JennyFlynn]

I listened to his interview/livestream too and was aware of all his work on A Traitor in the Chiss and how he created Copero and the Chiss lore, I just wasn't sure how far that was extended, was it for the whole arc about the Traitor, or just that one part of it that required the Chiss stuff.

I think this Traitor Arc is mostly Charles' work, based on what I've seen him Tweet and say in the past year. Or he could just be closely involved anyhows but he's been quite hyped about it. There's also a chance Sam had some involvement here, I remember she Tweeted quite excitedly about Copero and finally seeing it in-game, but don't know for sure.

 

Timothy worked solely on the Chiss aspect of Copero, both in design and some of the dialogue with new NPCs we meet there. He didn't work on the Traitor Arc aspect of Copero or anything prior to and after Copero concerning Theron.

[JennyFlynn]

I feel like what is happening is they are focusing on the non player characters, making them grow as they feel the character would, and completely forgetting that the player character is a more important character then the npc's. So it's flipped around since SoR even, that everything after has focused on a batch of non-player characters as the spotlight / priority focus instead. And it feels like it's getting worse. I don't necessarily think the writing is bad personally, but rather that this type of focus is in the wrong media form.

It's not on one person either so I don't agree with any attacks on one person/writer, it's the entire teams' focus now. And has been for years, it's just being more blatantly obvious now. In my opinion.

I agree completely. Their focus has shifted to shine their spotlight on the NPCs and we're just the second-rate cast there to make the NPCs shine, follow orders and sound like clueless sheep. I also agree this isn't solely on Sam but a pattern within the 'writers room' as a whole, definitely, but at the same time she has made some choices I feel were quite poor. Whether those choices were her own or if she was instructed to write things in a certain way we'll never know.

[QuinlanSaathis]

I agree completely. Their focus has shifted to shine their spotlight on the NPCs and we're just the second-rate cast there to make the NPCs shine, follow orders and sound like clueless sheep. I also agree this isn't solely on Sam but a pattern within the 'writers room' as a whole, definitely, but at the same time she has made some choices I feel were quite poor. Whether those choices were her own or if she was instructed to write things in a certain way we'll never know.

 

It is one hell of a coincidence then that her personal preference is mirrored in the devs desires for the companions.

[JennyFlynn]

It is one hell of a coincidence then that her personal preference is mirrored in the devs desires for the companions.

Well yes. I'm trying to go for that whole benefit of the doubt thing but you're not wrong lol.

[Lunafox]

I think this Traitor Arc is mostly Charles' work, based on what I've seen him Tweet and say in the past year. Or he could just be closely involved anyhows but he's been quite hyped about it. There's also a chance Sam had some involvement here, I remember she Tweeted quite excitedly about Copero and finally seeing it in-game, but don't know for sure.

 

Timothy worked solely on the Chiss aspect of Copero, both in design and some of the dialogue with new NPCs we meet there. He didn't work on the Traitor Arc aspect of Copero or anything prior to and after Copero concerning Theron.

 

Ah ok, good to have that clarified. Thanks for that. Makes sense. ^^

[QuinlanSaathis]

Well yes. I'm trying to go for that whole benefit of the doubt thing but you're not wrong lol.

 

I hear you and its admirable, but in this case there is too much doubt, I cannot suspend belief that far.

[MikeCobalt]

Letting Ashara, Corso, Kira, Mako any/all of them grow is great I think, its been 6 years, they have lives and we've been away. I myself used to ask about companion side mini quests. However, we're the players here, its Our story and I would Like to *Believe the PC is still the center of their own little clique. Nobody comes (and pays) to any game to feel Bad about their character. On one hand they're the Emperor/Empress of a Planet and the most powerful fleet ever, on the other hand they're the butt of the most recent Sith joke. If somebody has a personal agenda, they need to keep it *Personal; not in a business that is supported and driven 100% Fan based. Their Personal agenda is 100% detrimental to the fans and BioWares Income. There is no room for personal agenda's in these stories.

[Asmodesu]

Well yes. I'm trying to go for that whole benefit of the doubt thing but you're not wrong lol.

 

My main reason against that is that there is far more then 2 writers.. Well I hope there is xD and the higher ups still need to say 'Go" to anything written. Unless she had that power to not get told "some fixes needed" ever due to "woman" (I really hope that's not the case). We really don't know how things work over there sadly. Just that there's a writing team. Maybe they all think similar, or similar opinions on how to do things, maybe not.

[Asmodesu]

Letting Ashara, Corso, Kira, Mako any/all of them grow is great I think, its been 6 years, they have lives and we've been away. I myself used to ask about companion side mini quests. However, we're the players here, its Our story and I would Like to *Believe the PC is still the center of their own little clique. Nobody comes (and pays) to any game to feel Bad about their character. On one hand they're the Emperor/Empress of a Planet and the most powerful fleet ever, on the other hand they're the butt of the most recent Sith joke.

 

I agree 100% with this.

[IoNonSoEVero]

There's no telling for certain it was Samantha who wrote Ashara's return but if she did then she's duplicitous and a hypocrite. On the one hand writing an 'empowered female' at the expense of our Sinqs who's abuse Ashara will no longer accept but on the other hand pushing and promoting an Arcann romance? Which wasn't even necessary for the story but 100% catering to fan demand so what does she mean "letting the player down"? I suppose only when said romance doesn't hold her personal interest.

 

The Arcann romance AFAIK was 100% her. I read elsewhere that she had campaigned heavily for it before it was even considered. by fans and was a big Arcann fan.

 

What I wonder now is how much that influenced what was done with Arcann in KOTET. We've talked before about how unrealistic Arcann's 'redemption' and subsequent universal acceptance on the Alliance base was. How much of that was due to the writer's personal preference for the character? That was sacrificing realism and justice for favoritism, as well as making an abusive and genocidal character sympathetic.

[QuinlanSaathis]

The Arcann romance AFAIK was 100% her. I read elsewhere that she had campaigned heavily for it before it was even considered. by fans and was a big Arcann fan.

 

What I wonder now is how much that influenced what was done with Arcann in KOTET. We've talked before about how unrealistic Arcann's 'redemption' and subsequent universal acceptance on the Alliance base was. How much of that was due to the writer's personal preference for the character? That was sacrificing realism and justice for favoritism, as well as making an abusive and genocidal character sympathetic.

 

On the money, and it is exactly what she said was her "weakness" in that article.

No talent hack not fit to be called a writer.

[Costello]

I agree completely. Their focus has shifted to shine their spotlight on the NPCs and we're just the second-rate cast there to make the NPCs shine, follow orders and sound like clueless sheep. I also agree this isn't solely on Sam but a pattern within the 'writers room' as a whole, definitely, but at the same time she has made some choices I feel were quite poor. Whether those choices were her own or if she was instructed to write things in a certain way we'll never know.

 

Fully agree.

 

Arcann even says it to the player in chapter 16 for those in any doubt, it's not about you it never was.

 

The Kotfe story was so bad because it was focused on the Valkorian's where we were often treated to cut scenes showing childish mummy and daddy issue rants.

 

While the player follows Lana and Theron's leads, as they seem to be active recruiting Mandalorians to the war or finding Zakuul rebels while any alert the player recruits turn out to be worthless to the war effort and all those supplies they bring in have the smallest effect on the star fortresses but nothing else. So between the two groups the player is very much second class left to run errands, who would have died in chapter 8 if not for Valkorian, is sat in a field in chapter 12 while the big attack goes down and even the end fight and even the final fight is less about them than others.

 

Did it get worse with the Arcann redemption arc and romance, hell yeah. Senya who has all been about justice, justice justice suddenly does a 180 and decides that its all about mercy and redemption. Obviously not for Arcann's victims but for him, where some injuries he received while trying to kill you is punishment enough. And it turns out if you spare him and have a relationship with him everyone in the galaxy is all for it and feels that is justice?

 

And now we have companion returns, where they are class specific to cut down on any explanation of who these people are and why you are recruiting them. All because if you didn't have a previous relationship with them none of them would bother with the alliance. They looked for their lost friend/lover/commander couldn't find them so went and did their own thing. But as you are there they will come back, no hard feelings. Only in the case of Ashara she wont come back unless its as an equal, which she proves she is by being able to walk out unharmed.

 

It would be great if they turned it into a novel and saw how unbelievable unpalatable this mess of a story is.

Edited April 14, 2018 by Costello

[MikeCobalt]

Where exactly was Arcanns redemption? He's helped kill some more of his own family yes, but he had already tried that with Valkorian (He couldn't so he baited us to do so instead). Sent the Knights and Soldiers to stop our escape in the Gravestone, his mother was there. Helped kill Vaylin, She gave him odd looks throughout KotXX. If BW looked *Around all this, didn't think too much about what the players had gone through for over 2 years just to *Please a new member where does this put the customers ($ Us)? Already a few unacceptably progressed reunions and all the remaining were directed the same; Why is any of this acceptable or even happening?

[Sinhammer]

The Arcann romance AFAIK was 100% her. I read elsewhere that she had campaigned heavily for it before it was even considered. by fans and was a big Arcann fan.

 

What I wonder now is how much that influenced what was done with Arcann in KOTET. We've talked before about how unrealistic Arcann's 'redemption' and subsequent universal acceptance on the Alliance base was. How much of that was due to the writer's personal preference for the character? That was sacrificing realism and justice for favoritism, as well as making an abusive and genocidal character sympathetic.

 

I mentioned earlier it smacked of someone playing favorites with the comps, rather than writing decently with everyone in mind. I often use a particular comic book run for the "my toy can beat up your toy" child mentality of some writers. If anyone reads Hulk, they will know instantly what I am about to refer to. Jeph Loeb created Red Hulk. When he debuted in the Hulk comics Loeb (considered a hack by many) was given the reins of the title. Immediately over the next YEAR, "Rulk" ran over EVERYone, even though it didn't make sense. He killed the Hulk in a single comic, destroyed Silver Surfer and took his board, destroyed Namor and took his trident, beat Thor, beat a cosmic entity (The Watcher) with a single punch, the list goes on and on. Fan backlash was almost immediate, everyone calling for Marvel to stop the garbage. But Loeb kept at it, wanting his new toy to beat all the other toys.

 

This is the same sort of abysmal childish writing I feel happens in instances like this. "I like Ashara and Arcann and I don't care what YOU say about it!" then stomps off in a huff and throws a tantrum until they get their way and their favorites get the spotlight. As a writer myself I understand sometimes people enjoy certain aspects of a story far more than myself, and love certain characters much more than I do. A writer with no BUSINESS sense ignores the fans and does whatever they want no matter the damage it does to their (or their company's) work. A GOOD writer (read: a good businessman) pays attention to the fans and adjusts his narrative as best he/she can to work with both their own interests and those of the MAJORITY (the readers).

 

BTW--another example that comes often to mind of a writer just going crazy with his work rather than thinking of the reader: Jeff Lindsay, who wrote the "Dexter" series of novels (that the Showtime series was based on). In the third highly-anticipated book Lindsay went full stupid, revealing that Dexter's "Dark Passenger" (his serial killer needs and persona) was actually a possession by an ancient god, possibly related to Moloch. It was a straight-up fantasy novel written differently than his other novels in the series and had Dexter struggling with this supernatural entity. Naturally, fans were appalled at this sudden new direction in the series. Sales tanked, Lindsay was lambasted non-stop (and deservedly so), and in the NEXT novel on the supernatural stuff was completely written out as though that book never happened. Everyone was happy again and his writing career saved.

 

The TLDR version: a good writer knows how to balance their OWN thoughts and desires for their work with what SHOULD happen because of public interest.

[IoNonSoEVero]

I mentioned earlier it smacked of someone playing favorites with the comps, rather than writing decently with everyone in mind. I often use a particular comic book run for the "my toy can beat up your toy" child mentality of some writers. If anyone reads Hulk, they will know instantly what I am about to refer to. Jeph Loeb created Red Hulk. When he debuted in the Hulk comics Loeb (considered a hack by many) was given the reins of the title. Immediately over the next YEAR, "Rulk" ran over EVERYone, even though it didn't make sense. He killed the Hulk in a single comic, destroyed Silver Surfer and took his board, destroyed Namor and took his trident, beat Thor, beat a cosmic entity (The Watcher) with a single punch, the list goes on and on. Fan backlash was almost immediate, everyone calling for Marvel to stop the garbage. But Loeb kept at it, wanting his new toy to beat all the other toys.

 

This is the same sort of abysmal childish writing I feel happens in instances like this. "I like Ashara and Arcann and I don't care what YOU say about it!" then stomps off in a huff and throws a tantrum until they get their way and their favorites get the spotlight. As a writer myself I understand sometimes people enjoy certain aspects of a story far more than myself, and love certain characters much more than I do. A writer with no BUSINESS sense ignores the fans and does whatever they want no matter the damage it does to their (or their company's) work. A GOOD writer (read: a good businessman) pays attention to the fans and adjusts his narrative as best he/she can to work with both their own interests and those of the MAJORITY (the readers).

.

 

(snip)

 

I agree, mostly. I'm not going to personally bash this writer because that isn't cool. I'm also going to blame Bioware for not quality-controlling the work and apparently allowing one writer to have free rein to influence the story to this extent.

 

Writing for something like a video game. TV show or comic is markedly different than writing a novel, in that you are writing FOR an audience and also writing within specific parameters. You can take a character someplace new, but every comic and video game and series does have a 'bible' that describes how things are supposed to be,

 

Even if a character is your favorite you don't get to suspend both disbelief and the rules of that universe to suit your own personal preferences and predilections, and that is what the failure is here.

 

Personally I feel that the Andronikos return is far more grievous because the Inquisitor just smiles and nods at the fact that he a) didn't continue looking for them b) is raiding THEIR ships c) apparently is so out of touch that he DOESN'T KNOW who the current leader of the galaxy is. But many people have mentioned that most of the companion returns as of late have seemed inconsistent.

 

Arcann, as well. I can't imagine a reality where the Alliance wouldn't have disbanded or significantly diminished if the player chose to keep Arcann, and there's no justice for him. Consequences. Realism. But there's nothing because one writer apparently has him as a pet.

 

The fact that Arcann gives players expensive presents, as well - you're telling me that the other love interests would never think of giving their partner something nice, but the selfish despot who took over the galaxy and oppressed it for his own jollies is going to hand over Cartel Market armor?

 

TBH when I read here and see players graphically describing the graphic torture they want to inflict on certain characters, it disturbs me. I don't think any writer is obligated to facilitate players' sadistic abuse fantasies, like allowing a player to beat up Ashara and keep her as a spouse. But there's a middle ground there.

[Eshvara]

(snip)

 

I agree, mostly. I'm not going to personally bash this writer because that isn't cool. I'm also going to blame Bioware for not quality-controlling the work and apparently allowing one writer to have free rein to influence the story to this extent.

 

Writing for something like a video game. TV show or comic is markedly different than writing a novel, in that you are writing FOR an audience and also writing within specific parameters. You can take a character someplace new, but every comic and video game and series does have a 'bible' that describes how things are supposed to be,

 

Even if a character is your favorite you don't get to suspend both disbelief and the rules of that universe to suit your own personal preferences and predilections, and that is what the failure is here.

 

Personally I feel that the Andronikos return is far more grievous because the Inquisitor just smiles and nods at the fact that he a) didn't continue looking for them b) is raiding THEIR ships c) apparently is so out of touch that he DOESN'T KNOW who the current leader of the galaxy is. But many people have mentioned that most of the companion returns as of late have seemed inconsistent.

 

Arcann, as well. I can't imagine a reality where the Alliance wouldn't have disbanded or significantly diminished if the player chose to keep Arcann, and there's no justice for him. Consequences. Realism. But there's nothing because one writer apparently has him as a pet.

 

The fact that Arcann gives players expensive presents, as well - you're telling me that the other love interests would never think of giving their partner something nice, but the selfish despot who took over the galaxy and oppressed it for his own jollies is going to hand over Cartel Market armor?

 

TBH when I read here and see players graphically describing the graphic torture they want to inflict on certain characters, it disturbs me. I don't think any writer is obligated to facilitate players' sadistic abuse fantasies, like allowing a player to beat up Ashara and keep her as a spouse. But there's a middle ground there.

 

While not in a cut scene, you did get presents from your companion in letters. I remember some "expensive wine" and perfume? Forgot of who it was though. They were companion gifts, but they did think about you! (I think)

Edited April 14, 2018 by Eshvara

[IoNonSoEVero]

While not in a cut scene, you did get presents from your companion in letters. I remember some "expensive wine" and perfume? Forgot of who it was though. They were companion gifts, but they did think about you! (I think)

 

Vector does give you a present (even BEFORE you romance him, because he's just sweet like that) and IIRC some of the other class companions do, too, but the KOTFE ones (Lana, Theron, Koth) never do - and the class companion LIs never give any presents once they hit KOTFE.

 

But none of those things are the same as armor that is currently going for 1440 CC on the Cartel Market. IMHO if they are going to have Arcann giving something like that out, the other companions should, too.

[Eshvara]

Vector does give you a present (even BEFORE you romance him, because he's just sweet like that) and IIRC some of the other class companions do, too, but the KOTFE ones (Lana, Theron, Koth) never do - and the class companion LIs never give any presents once they hit KOTFE.

 

But none of those things are the same as armor that is currently going for 1440 CC on the Cartel Market. IMHO if they are going to have Arcann giving something like that out, the other companions should, too.

 

I guess it is a bit fancier than what we are used to getting yeah. I honestly thought people found it silly as there were so many jokes made about it, like "arcann is knitting" Didn't know people actually liked it.

Sure would be cool if other companions did so as well. It's still only a top however, and it isn't exactly the same as the full armor set you can get off the CM, but almost identical. I think you still get it if you don't decide to do the romance with him, but I could be wrong on that one. Maybe it'll be something they'll continue to do in the future.

Edited April 14, 2018 by Eshvara

[Sinhammer]

(snip)

 

I agree, mostly. I'm not going to personally bash this writer because that isn't cool. I'm also going to blame Bioware for not quality-controlling the work and apparently allowing one writer to have free rein to influence the story to this extent.

 

Writing for something like a video game. TV show or comic is markedly different than writing a novel, in that you are writing FOR an audience and also writing within specific parameters. You can take a character someplace new, but every comic and video game and series does have a 'bible' that describes how things are supposed to be,

 

Even if a character is your favorite you don't get to suspend both disbelief and the rules of that universe to suit your own personal preferences and predilections, and that is what the failure is here.

 

 

I completely agree with you here. I've written books and I've written for TV. It is unfortunate but sometimes the business end of it (i.e., the bosses) have to take precedent on what happens in a story, and the writer is powerless to prevent it, even when said story event goes contrary to written lore/laws within the story universe. The unfortunate side effect of that is the writer gets blamed for the stupidity and not the people calling the shots. I have seen both ends of that. The examples I listed are not that. They are examples of the actual writer run amok to their own selfishness and left unchecked, whether by the powers that be or by their reader/viewer-base. I could list many such examples but I won't get all into that; it's sort of veering off-topic a bit.