DefenderTwo Posted April 18, 2018 Share Posted April 18, 2018 (edited) Vaylin should have had the same options as Arcann. I agree. I would replay the expansions again to get Vaylin instead of Senya and Arcann. Arcann is just so bland when compared to Vaylin. I'm still surprised they picked him for the redemption arc, he was the one who wanted it, she was the one who needed it and now he's freely walking around the Alliance base because he feels bad? The man is a war criminal, he did more damage with his "sane" mind than Vaylin did with her state of mind! He should be in prison with Saresh or executed for his crimes. Edited April 18, 2018 by DefenderTwo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted April 18, 2018 Share Posted April 18, 2018 (edited) Vaylin should have had the same options as Arcann. The Order of Zildrog approves of this message. I would replay the expansions again to get Vaylin instead of Senya and Arcann. This would motivate me to do something silly, like play KOTFE/ET on my Smuggler. Edited April 18, 2018 by Paulsutherland Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eshvara Posted April 18, 2018 Share Posted April 18, 2018 (edited) This would motivate me to do something silly, like play KOTFE/ET on my Smuggler. Would you then help Vaylin hunt down Senya and Arcann, slaughter them and rampage the galaxy with your evil equal? Though I'm not sure if Vaylin would see a non force user as an equal. But then again it is kotxx, where it doesn't matter. I'd say you're good. Edited April 18, 2018 by Eshvara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted April 18, 2018 Share Posted April 18, 2018 Would you then help Vaylin hunt down Senya and Arcann, slaughter them and rampage the galaxy with your evil equal? Though I'm not sure if Vaylin would see a non force user as an equal. But then again it is kotfe, where it doesn't matter. I'd say you're good. If that's the only way ... yes. As for why Vaylin would get along with a non force user? Head canon will be working overtime on that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inukamisan Posted April 18, 2018 Share Posted April 18, 2018 Would you then help Vaylin hunt down Senya and Arcann, slaughter them and rampage the galaxy with your evil equal? Though I'm not sure if Vaylin would see a non force user as an equal. But then again it is kotxx, where it doesn't matter. I'd say you're good. I9 don't think Vaylin would see anyone as an equal....courtesy of Valkorion.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamephil Posted April 18, 2018 Share Posted April 18, 2018 (edited) Yeah... well. A chapter of Vaylin fighting the madness in a surreal landscape intermixed with scenes from that prison planet would be pretty cool. But it would probably be too much work, a bit too dark for the tone of this game. And you can't really let her win. But anyway, a side chapter like the one for HK-55, just within a distinctly darker tone, but still within the realm of what the PG 12+ rating allows, that gives some more depth to the character might be nice. I don't know, they've already broached the themes of abuse, torture (of a child, no less), brainwashing, and genocide. Casually. And, arguably, made our characters a party to abuse and the use of brainwashing. Again, casually, and without our being able to choose, and it's presented as heroic. I'm not sure if any theme would be too dark at this point. As for not letting her win, you could if she simply won the ability to choose who she wants to be without manipulation or continued harm from Valkorion, Arcann, Senya, SCORPIO, or the Commander. Without being thrown away because she's "broken". That would be awesome. I'm not saying wash away everything like was done with Arcann, just, you know, something. She can't win against the Outlander, but she could win that. Edited April 18, 2018 by gamephil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamephil Posted April 18, 2018 Share Posted April 18, 2018 (edited) Would you then help Vaylin hunt down Senya and Arcann, slaughter them and rampage the galaxy with your evil equal? Though I'm not sure if Vaylin would see a non force user as an equal. But then again it is kotxx, where it doesn't matter. I'd say you're good. I would prefer not to, but I would at least a couple of times to have her travelling with certain characters. Not all of whom are even DS. I'd like there to be a more healing path, where they can all live, or, if there must be a sacrifice, one of them simply dies for her (probably Senya). I mean, if her mother actually made that sacrifice, would that get through to her? I think it would work, story wise. As always, I don't necessarily want her to be all goodness and light, because then she wouldn't be Vaylin, but there still has to be something that gets her to accept us, if not as equals, then as allies. The destruction of her father and some form of sacrifice on her behalf (honestly, just freeing her in the mindscape should be enough) might do that. Edited April 18, 2018 by gamephil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted April 18, 2018 Share Posted April 18, 2018 I9 don't think Vaylin would see anyone as an equal....courtesy of Valkorion.. As long as you come off as fun for Vaylin, I think you'll be good. I would prefer not to, but I would at least a couple of times to have her travelling with certain characters. Not all of whom are even DS. I'd like there to be a more healing path, where they can all live, or, if there must be a sacrifice, one of them simply dies for her (probably Senya). I mean, if her mother actually made that sacrifice, would that get through to her? I think it would work, story wise. As always, I don't necessarily want her to be all goodness and light, because then she wouldn't be Vaylin, but there still has to be something that gets her to accept us, if not as equals, then as allies. The destruction of her father and some form of sacrifice on her behalf (honestly, just freeing her in the mindscape should be enough) might do that. Senya dying to save Vaylin was something I was expecting to see ... maybe if Theron has found the fountain of life on Nathema Senya can have a chance to redeem herself. At this point ... just gimme the companion, I'll head canon what I want for the character I happen to be on at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamephil Posted April 18, 2018 Share Posted April 18, 2018 (edited) I agree. I would replay the expansions again to get Vaylin instead of Senya and Arcann. Arcann is just so bland when compared to Vaylin. I'm still surprised they picked him for the redemption arc, he was the one who wanted it, she was the one who needed it and now he's freely walking around the Alliance base because he feels bad? The man is a war criminal, he did more damage with his "sane" mind than Vaylin did with her state of mind! He should be in prison with Saresh or executed for his crimes. I would very much be OK with Arcann's redemption arc if it weren't for a few things. If it hadn't put his mother in a coma, if he'd been more active in his healing and it hadn't been Force magic. If he'd stuck with "Capture my sister" rather than "We aren't afraid" before helping to beat her to death. If he and their mother had extended the hand one more time before Vaylin tried to chop it off. After they abandoned and betrayed her themselves, they should never have been written as writing her off because "she's broken". If he'd been thrown in prison after Chapter 6 for his crimes, because killing three of his own people doesn't make up for five worlds. If he'd only been released to help with destroying Vitiate rather than either of them being there at all in Chapter 8. If they didn't continue, whenever the expansions are mentioned, to pin it all on Vaylin when he was responsible for so much more. "Every world Vaylin terrorized", indeed. You wanted a redeemed tyrant, let him be a redeemed tyrant. They want him out? Fine. Let him be accepted after chapter 9, not before. Then it actually makes a lot more sense to me. You get a level of forgiveness and trust after helping to kill an evil deity. And it means that he's basically one of the Dirty Dozen, released from prison for heinous crimes to go on a suicide mission. At least his crimes come up, briefly, during the romance dialog. But then we also have the whole "sense the good in him" option. I hope that's not pushing the whole "there was none in her" thing like they seem to be, because with everything else, with the mental illness and brainwashing and all, I'd be unhappy. I'm assuming it was "she was dangerous at that moment and there was no other way but we were able to pull you back," but that's honestly not much better. He has his moments. He comments on how he hurt Vaylin more, and seems to regret it. He starts by wanting to capture her. He's just inconsistent. I want more of the guy that wanted to take her alive and less of the guy that apologizes for preventing us from killing her if you take the right dialog options. So it goes. Edited April 18, 2018 by gamephil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamephil Posted April 18, 2018 Share Posted April 18, 2018 At this point ... just gimme the companion, I'll head canon what I want for the character I happen to be on at the time. It'll do. She's closer to being able to be a companion, with fully voiced lines if not cutscenes and story, than anyone else but Marr and Acina. I'd like to see that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted April 18, 2018 Share Posted April 18, 2018 It'll do. She's closer to being able to be a companion, with fully voiced lines if not cutscenes and story, than anyone else but Marr and Acina. I'd like to see that. Technically she already is, she was a companion briefly during the final fight We just got dumped with Arcann during that fight though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DefenderTwo Posted April 18, 2018 Share Posted April 18, 2018 I would very much be OK with Arcann's redemption arc if it weren't for a few things. If it hadn't put his mother in a coma, if he'd been more active in his healing and it hadn't been Force magic. If he'd stuck with "Capture my sister" rather than "We aren't afraid" before helping to beat her to death. If he and their mother had extended the hand one more time before Vaylin tried to chop it off. After they abandoned and betrayed her themselves, they should never have been written as writing her off because "she's broken". If he'd been thrown in prison after Chapter 6 for his crimes, because killing three of his own people doesn't make up for five worlds. If he'd only been released to help with destroying Vitiate rather than either of them being there at all in Chapter 8. If they didn't continue, whenever the expansions are mentioned, to pin it all on Vaylin when he was responsible for so much more. "Every world Vaylin terrorized", indeed. You wanted a redeemed tyrant, let him be a redeemed tyrant. They want him out? Fine. Let him be accepted after chapter 9, not before. Then it actually makes a lot more sense to me. You get a level of forgiveness and trust after helping to kill an evil deity. And it means that he's basically one of the Dirty Dozen, released from prison for heinous crimes to go on a suicide mission. At least his crimes come up, briefly, during the romance dialog. But then we also have the whole "sense the good in him" option. I hope that's not pushing the whole "there was none in her" thing like they seem to be, because with everything else, with the mental illness and brainwashing and all, I'd be unhappy. I'm assuming it was "she was dangerous at that moment and there was no other way but we were able to pull you back," but that's honestly not much better. He has his moments. He comments on how he hurt Vaylin more, and seems to regret it. He starts by wanting to capture her. He's just inconsistent. I want more of the guy that wanted to take her alive and less of the guy that apologizes for preventing us from killing her if you take the right dialog options. So it goes. When we beat Vaylin, that should have been the right time for Arcann or Senya to make their move on Vaylin instead they stand their like morons. The crimes Arcann commits are far worse than anything Vaylin does. Yes, she killed Knights who failed for one reason or another, but he ordered the deaths of half of their overall number. Was it explained why Arcann went to Voss? Was it only to give him a 100,000 point LS boost? I never got the impression Arcann was suffering from any form of mental block, bar his own stupidity and poorly thought out decisions he made through the first expansion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DefenderTwo Posted April 18, 2018 Share Posted April 18, 2018 It'll do. She's closer to being able to be a companion, with fully voiced lines if not cutscenes and story, than anyone else but Marr and Acina. I'd like to see that. She does have a lot of potential lines from the various fights we have against her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamephil Posted April 18, 2018 Share Posted April 18, 2018 (edited) When we beat Vaylin, that should have been the right time for Arcann or Senya to make their move on Vaylin instead they stand their like morons. Absolutely. And then it ends with her saying, "We've won" over her daughter's corpse. The VA almost saves it, her tone is almost heartbreaking, but it should have been a better line. The crimes Arcann commits are far worse than anything Vaylin does. Yes, she killed Knights who failed for one reason or another, but he ordered the deaths of half of their overall number. Yeah, for me, all they really had to do was make it that she was more dangerous, not more irredeemable..That she had to die because of being in the process of leveling the base rather than because "she's broken". Her greatest crime to me was re-enslaving the GEMINI droids, but even that doesn't really match Arcann's crimes. Was it explained why Arcann went to Voss? Was it only to give him a 100,000 point LS boost? I never got the impression Arcann was suffering from any form of mental block, bar his own stupidity and poorly thought out decisions he made through the first expansion. As far as I know, Senya dragged him there to be healed. That was it. I have issues with that. I said somewhere up thread that it made more sense to do that for Vaylin. Arcann should have struggled with who he was and become a better man, if given the chance. To come to terms with the abuse he'd suffered and the terrible things he did. A magical ritual should have been used to reverse a magical ritual, which is what we saw for Vaylin. Arcann had reason to be a ball of anger. It should not have been just washed away. Edited April 18, 2018 by gamephil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 A magical ritual should have been used to reverse a magical ritual, which is what we saw for Vaylin. And she didn't need Senya's help for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DefenderTwo Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 As far as I know, Senya dragged him there to be healed. That was it. I have issues with that. I said somewhere up thread that it made more sense to do that for Vaylin. Arcann should have struggled with who he was and become a better man, if given the chance. To come to terms with the abuse he'd suffered and the terrible things he did. A magical ritual should have been used to reverse a magical ritual, which is what we saw for Vaylin. Isn't there a six month gap between KOTFE and KOTET? In all that time Arcann never regained consciousness to challenge his struggle on his own? Yes he's done bad things, but his mind was sound when making those decisions, unlike Vaylin who went through hell on Nathema. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamephil Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 Isn't there a six month gap between KOTFE and KOTET? In all that time Arcann never regained consciousness to challenge his struggle on his own? Yes he's done bad things, but his mind was sound when making those decisions, unlike Vaylin who went through hell on Nathema. It didn't really fully make sense, no. Six full months, and as the ship flies off Arcann appears conscious. Not only do they never fix his arm, but he's apparently going to go berserk on his own mother if he isn't cured. I guess she did something to keep him subdued all that time, which basically means that he was just as broken as Vaylin. It's all a bit odd, ultimately, and more than a bit disturbing. And I agree, he seemed to be in his right mind. That really makes no sense, but it's what we're given. If he wasn't, if he was broken like Vaylin, we shouldn't have been able to save him by the logic we are given for her. And if he was in his right mind, we shouldn't have wanted to, because he's just evil. It's all painful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DefenderTwo Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 It didn't really fully make sense, no. Six full months, and as the ship flies off Arcann appears conscious. Not only do they never fix his arm, but he's apparently going to go berserk on his own mother if he isn't cured. I guess she did something to keep him subdued all that time, which basically means that he was just as broken as Vaylin. It's all a bit odd, ultimately, and more than a bit disturbing. And I agree, he seemed to be in his right mind. That really makes no sense, but it's what we're given. If he wasn't, if he was broken like Vaylin, we shouldn't have been able to save him by the logic we are given for her. And if he was in his right mind, we shouldn't have wanted to, because he's just evil. It's all painful. I don't buy Arcann turning on Senya at that point. Maybe had the positions been reversed and Senya picked up Vaylin instead I could buy she was still a threat, but Arcann made up his mind when he pushed Vaylin away, I guess something could have happened in the six months, but what could have happened is open to endless speculation. Again, endless speculation. Unless something happened off-screen, I don't understand why he needed the Voss treatment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 It didn't really fully make sense, no. Six full months, and as the ship flies off Arcann appears conscious. What could they have been doing for six months? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DefenderTwo Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 What could they have been doing for six months? On the run from Vaylin continuously? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 On the run from Vaylin continuously? Maybe? We know Vaylin tracked them to Ord Mantel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamephil Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 (edited) I don't buy Arcann turning on Senya at that point.. I don't, either, but it's what Senya tells us. They were definitely on the run from Vaylin the whole time, but they should have still made some progress. I really feel that there was a more interesting, and less destructive, story in there that they just decided not to tell. It's a shame, even given that they were forced to rush it so much. Edited April 19, 2018 by gamephil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamephil Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 Technically she already is, she was a companion briefly during the final fight We just got dumped with Arcann during that fight though. I don't know if that's the same. Unless they created a full-blown companion and then crippled her (not letting us see the paper doll or have any controls for her), there would still be work to do to make her a companion. But she is fully voiced, and a few extra lines for Healer mode can be pulled from her dialog as people have talked about (No one dies without my permission!). But, maybe they did the full build, that might have been easier to do. I wish I knew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 I don't know if that's the same. Unless they created a full-blown companion and then crippled her (not letting us see the paper doll or have any controls for her), there would still be work to do to make her a companion. But she is fully voiced, and a few extra lines for Healer mode can be pulled from her dialog as people have talked about (No one dies without my permission!). But, maybe they did the full build, that might have been easier to do. I wish I knew. My wallet is ready to make a donation should Bioware want to reward us, Brother Phil! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamephil Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 My wallet is ready to make a donation should Bioware want to reward us, Brother Phil! All things are made equal with enough cash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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