Cannon: sold to highest bidder

[KnightPierce]

Did I say that he was positive and had no issues?

Did I?

Because if you claim I did, you are the one full of it.

 

You claimed there were positive reviews to offset the critical reviews. You dug yourself into this hole. Also look at comments on Angry Joes follow up.

 

You think that is a bubble? More people there than here. You are projecting.

Edited January 3, 2018 by KnightPierce

[Leklor]

You claimed there were positive reviews to offset the critical reviews. You dug yourself into this hole. Also look at comments on Angry Joes follow up.

 

You think that is a bubble? More people there than here. You are projecting.

 

I didn't say that.

I said that Joe admitted that he got some stuff wrong about TLJ because he was angry.

 

My point was simple and clear: When you are motivated by emotion (Hate for example) you tend to see what you want to see. You overexagerate the negative and diminish the positive (Note: The other way around is just as true.)

 

You think that is a bubble? More people there than here. You are projecting.

 

Then explain the positive reception of the film on several trustworthy sites. Explain the disrepancy (Why is the score much lower on some sites than others) and provide elements beyond "I think it is so therefore it is by default."

 

Because when I look around the Youtube reviews in my native langueage (French), the reviews with the most views and likes are the positive ones. And almost all of them are from life-long fans. So that means that the reaction is positive according to your logic, since I mostly see positive ones. Right?

[KnightPierce]

I didn't say that.

I said that Joe admitted that he got some stuff wrong about TLJ because he was angry.

 

My point was simple and clear: When you are motivated by emotion (Hate for example) you tend to see what you want to see. You overexagerate the negative and diminish the positive (Note: The other way around is just as true.)

 

 

 

Then explain the positive reception of the film on several trustworthy sites. Explain the disrepancy (Why is the score much lower on some sites than others) and provide elements beyond "I think it is so therefore it is by default."

 

Because when I look around the Youtube reviews in my native langueage (French), the reviews with the most views and likes are the positive ones. And almost all of them are from life-long fans. So that means that the reaction is positive according to your logic, since I mostly see positive ones. Right?

 

Show me the overall positive reception to the film on a site that is not full of anonymous users.

[SithKoriandr]

Disney canon is still better then 90% of the EU as is very well exemplified in another thread on these very boards (http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=940958). Also, odds are you are no older then the person you are calling "kid" as if it were impossible for someone who grew up with star wars to like the new movies. Well let me tell you right here and now... You're wrong. I grew up with SW. I had the movie on VHS as a kid and could mute the movie and recite the lines that's how much I loved them. I had the novelization of the movies which I read... But most of the EU I never acquired a taste for aside from the Thrawn books. Most of the post ep.6 EU for me was either poorly written and/or filled with ridiculousness. Sure, id like the old republic era to be canon, the KOTOR games and even SWTOR... but most of the post ep. 6 stuff I'm not sorry to see go at all. Trying to make an argument based of a presumed position of authority does nothing to strengthen your argument. In fact all you manage to do is seem bitter.

 

Agreed.

 

Some of the EU stuff went in a direction, I didn't care for, or make to much sense. The EU was on a power trip, with every writer trying to one up the last.

 

Love the Thrawn Trilogy. I even liked some of the Jedi Academy stuff. Wraith Squadrom books and the like.

 

However, some of the material just got OP.

 

That doesn't make what Disney has done better though. Disney has had the time to show you the full length of their power creep like the EU has.

 

We also have the problem that George couldn't even keep everything in line with his original vision, as show cased in the his own Prequels.

 

Jedi's go from known through out the galaxy by everyone, to all but forgotten and consider a hokey religion, 18 years later? I don't think so

[Leklor]

Show me the overall positive reception to the film on a site that is not full of anonymous users.

 

I won't bother.

You keep raising the point that there are negative reviews on Youtube and that they apparently are in the majority which would indicated a massive dislike for the movie and its direction.

That's not an argument at all, for several reasons:

1) You shown no actual proof that the majority of Youtube reviews are actually negative. Also you are probably limited to one, maybe two languages, so that basically cuts out a lot of the Star Wars audience and reviewers.

2) You seem to believe that because these negative reviews had a lot of views that makes them correct, despite the fact that one view is not one agreement.

3) You fail to mention that Youtube accounts are anonymous (Beyond content creators) and that there is an overlap in views, making them an unreliable metric.

 

Basically, if I have to present a site with non-anonymous reviews, you have to do it too. And Youtube doesn't count, no matter how you try to put it. And since there is no website that demands one to give their real identity when commenting on film, it's a moot request from both sides.

The only argument that I will accept pointing to a mixed (Not negative, mixed) reception to the movie are the middling audience scores on Rotten Tomatoes and Metacritic. But these scores are inconsistent with other scores (IMDB, Cinemascore and Letterbox for example) which would tend to make them dubious.

 

Summary for you: What you ask for is impossible, and your "evidence" is not just subjective ("I've noticed this but will not give proof so I am right") but also has zero actual weight in a debate. So as far as I'm concerned, I will not bother with your absurd demands and I'll just let you live in your fantasy world where the majority of the world hates TFA and TLJ and where Episode IX will get cancelled and a new trilogy made. Have a good day in your imaginary world, I hope the weather is better than here, it's both windy and rainy.

[jarjarloves]

Show me the overall positive reception to the film on a site that is not full of anonymous users.

 

easy the official Star Wars page on Facebook. Positive comments vastly outweight the negative.

[jarjarloves]

AngryJoe 2.9 Million Subs with this video at 1.7 Million views.

 

Awesome Channel 1 million views poking at the plot holes with over 700k views

 

Come on show me these glowing reviews you claim exist and if they are by any big youtubers.

 

you are assuming that the Like and Dislike buttons mean they are agreeing with them and not that they enjoy the video.

 

That's a pretty big assumption

[JediAkemi]

Give CinemaWins time, and then you'll see a positive review... mostly.

[jarjarloves]

Give CinemaWins time, and then you'll see a positive review... mostly.

 

 

they already have a very positive one up

 

I love the prereq unless you are going in with a lot of EU expectations and will be very upset if they don't go with that or aren't open to characters going in directions you aren't happy with.

 

Nailed it

[JediAkemi]

Ok, cool. I actually meant we'd probably have to wait for the dvd to come out before he can do the full "Everything Great About Star Wars: The Last Jedi".

 

The CinemaSins one though... anyone want to guess how many sins he'll give for "Super Leia"?

[juliushorst]

Disney canon is still better then 90% of the EU as is very well exemplified in another thread on these very boards (http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=940958). .

 

This post you linked mentions 5 things (including: obscure RPG campaign, obscure and infamous junior novel series and one point I don't understand why one would call terrible other than reading it on CNET and not in the actual book) out of hundreds of books, comic series and games. As a big fan of the EU I could probably bring many more (Ken 'Gary Stu', the Jedi Prince in Skylark series mentioned before; people moving their brains in and out of B'omarr monk tanks in Galaxy of Fear and Battleground Tatooine; Vader turning away and escaping from an angry mob wishing to lynch him in Vader's Quest; short-distance teleportation in Bounty on Bar-Kooda - just for example).

Still, I can't see where you found that 90%... for me it's more like:

10-15% great

45-50% good

25-30% mediocre

10-15% awful (like some things mentioned in the other post or ones mentioned here)

[Valceanu]

This post you linked mentions 5 things (including: obscure RPG campaign, obscure and infamous junior novel series and one point I don't understand why one would call terrible other than reading it on CNET and not in the actual book) out of hundreds of books, comic series and games. As a big fan of the EU I could probably bring many more (Ken 'Gary Stu', the Jedi Prince in Skylark series mentioned before; people moving their brains in and out of B'omarr monk tanks in Galaxy of Fear and Battleground Tatooine; Vader turning away and escaping from an angry mob wishing to lynch him in Vader's Quest; short-distance teleportation in Bounty on Bar-Kooda - just for example).

Still, I can't see where you found that 90%... for me it's more like:

10-15% great

45-50% good

25-30% mediocre

10-15% awful (like some things mentioned in the other post or ones mentioned here)

 

Oh the number was pulled our of my *** admittedly. I never got into the EU much personally and only the Thrawn stuff really captured my interest to any significant degree and i never picked up something that didnt come well recommended (this is true for books outside the SW universe also). A lot of the stuff i accidentally came into contact with seemed poorly written though... and not in the sense described above with regard to ridiculousness... i mean the writing style itself. I very much include the novelization of the OT itself in this... it was all very simplistic compared to some of the more "serious" books i've read (i'm not gonna throw a curve ball and compare it to something like Dostoievski but with something in-genre like Frank Herbert's Dune series or virtually anything by Asimov). This ofc boils down to the writing skill of the author rather then his/her imagination. I'll be honest... a lot of my impression of the EU books is based on second hand information or reviews etc. but i got the feeling that a lot of the authors weren't very good and it was a case of writing SW cause SW sells. But if you have any recommendations of EU books that are solid in both plot as well as writing i'd be happy to have a look...

Edited January 5, 2018 by Valceanu

[Rebamcfan]

Oh the number was pulled our of my *** admittedly. I never got into the EU much personally and only the Thrawn stuff really captured my interest to any significant degree and i never picked up something that didnt come well recommended (this is true for books outside the SW universe also). A lot of the stuff i accidentally came into contact with seemed poorly written though... and not in the sense described above with regard to ridiculousness... i mean the writing style itself. I very much include the novelization of the OT itself in this... it was all very simplistic compared to some of the more "serious" books i've read (i'm not gonna throw a curve ball and compare it to something like Dostoievski but with something in-genre like Frank Herbert's Dune series or virtually anything by Asimov). This ofc boils down to the writing skill of the author rather then his/her imagination. I'll be honest... a lot of my impression of the EU books is based on second hand information or reviews etc. but i got the feeling that a lot of the authors weren't very good and it was a case of writing SW cause SW sells. But if you have any recommendations of EU books that are solid in both plot as well as writing i'd be happy to have a look...

 

Timothy Zahn's books are always good ones, though I like Kevin J. Anderson Jedi Academy-trilogy too. While the writing feels bit weaker than in Zahn's novels, I find Anderson to be a good writer. He wrote the characters and events in very captivating manner. Natasi Daala was very interesting character, especially when we learned little of her backstory, and how she isn't a perfect nor exactly a good commander when it comes to battle.

I'm hoping that he would make contributions to Canon one day too.

Edited January 5, 2018 by Rebamcfan

[Leklor]

Timothy Zahn's books are always good ones, though I like Kevin J. Anderson Jedi Academy-trilogy too. While the writing feels bit weaker than in Zahn's novels, I find Anderson to be a good writer. He wrote the characters and events in very captivating manner. Natasi Daala was very interesting character, especially when we learned little of her backstory, and how she isn't a perfect nor exactly a good commander when it comes to battle.

I'm hoping that he would make contributions to Canon one day too.

 

I always thought Anderson to be a wildly inconsistent writer. His Star Wars stuff I found average mostly (The mostly good balances the pretty bad), his Dune-stuff is apparently murder-worthy for Herbert fans but I really liked his solo work "The Saga of Seven Suns" which always struck me as a silly but very entertaining space-opera/epic with incredibly weird elements (The main plots shifts from political upheaval to elemental war in space) that was very easy to get into.

[juliushorst]

But if you have any recommendations of EU books that are solid in both plot as well as writing i'd be happy to have a look...

Matthew Stover (Shatterpoint, Revenge of the Sith, Traitor) is really good with character's psychology. You already mentioned Thrawn - Timmothy Zahn's works are always a safe bet (my only complain is he tends to use the same characters in all his books - it's always Thrawn, Car'das, Mara), Survivor's Quest is nice epilogue for Republic vs. Empire post-RotJ arc, taking place after peace treaty is signed. James Luceno comes up with great stories (like Darth Plagueis) but I'm not a big fan of his style. Anderson has his good moments (Jedi Academy trilogy), his mediocre moments (Darksaber) and his rather bad moments when he writes together with his wife (Young Jedi Knights series). Troy Denning wrote a lot of Legends stuff - his books are usually action-oriented, so you can give him a try if you're into this kind of stuff (I'm rather into story \ character stuff).

 

Timothy Zahn's books are always good ones, though I like Kevin J. Anderson Jedi Academy-trilogy too. While the writing feels bit weaker than in Zahn's novels, I find Anderson to be a good writer. He wrote the characters and events in very captivating manner. Natasi Daala was very interesting character, especially when we learned little of her backstory, and how she isn't a perfect nor exactly a good commander when it comes to battle.

I didn't like how they made her a competent leader at the beginning of Fate of the Jedi (really, Daala is the only person dealing with the crazed Jedi in a reasonable way) and later turned her into a crazy dictator for no reason by the end of the series.

 

I'm hoping that he would make contributions to Canon one day too.

I'd rather have two separate timelines continued, one for the movies and material surrounding them and the other to continue Legends timeline (as they left it with two eras without any conclusion and one era concluded very poorly). Make a logo with big 'Legends' and small 'Star Wars' to avoid confusing people (that was Lucasfilm argument against it). I promise to buy it.

Edited January 5, 2018 by juliushorst

[annabethchase]

....I'd rather have two separate timelines continued, one for the movies and material surrounding them and the other to continue Legends timeline (as they left it with two eras without any conclusion and one era concluded very poorly). Make a logo with big 'Legends' and small 'Star Wars' to avoid confusing people (that was Lucasfilm argument against it). I promise to buy it.

 

Now that it's legends material, it feels like the series went too far into the future. The end of Jacen's story is far enough into the future to wrap up that version of continuity from Return of the Jedi. We were about to start following story lines primarily of people 2 generations removed from the movies. The Legacy comics with Cade for instance weren't really that far into the future anymore, which was originally their big appeal.

 

I bought all the old books when they weren't legends, but I wouldn't buy anything new with a legends tag. In fact I didn't even read the couple of new books they released for the Big 3 after this transition was known. That universe ended in a satisfying manner to me and for me I won't be coming back to that one.

[annabethchase]

you are assuming that the Like and Dislike buttons mean they are agreeing with them and not that they enjoy the video.

 

That's a pretty big assumption

 

Exactly, like is mostly saying "thanks for making a video" not a comment on the worthiness of the film itself.

[TalonVII]

Matthew Stover (Shatterpoint, Revenge of the Sith, Traitor) is really good with character's psychology. You already mentioned Thrawn - Timmothy Zahn's works are always a safe bet (my only complain is he tends to use the same characters in all his books - it's always Thrawn, Car'das, Mara), Survivor's Quest is nice epilogue for Republic vs. Empire post-RotJ arc, taking place after peace treaty is signed. James Luceno comes up with great stories (like Darth Plagueis) but I'm not a big fan of his style. Anderson has his good moments (Jedi Academy trilogy), his mediocre moments (Darksaber) and his rather bad moments when he writes together with his wife (Young Jedi Knights series). Troy Denning wrote a lot of Legends stuff - his books are usually action-oriented, so you can give him a try if you're into this kind of stuff (I'm rather into story \ character stuff).

 

 

I didn't like how they made her a competent leader at the beginning of Fate of the Jedi (really, Daala is the only person dealing with the crazed Jedi in a reasonable way) and later turned her into a crazy dictator for no reason by the end of the series.

 

 

I'd rather have two separate timelines continued, one for the movies and material surrounding them and the other to continue Legends timeline (as they left it with two eras without any conclusion and one era concluded very poorly). Make a logo with big 'Legends' and small 'Star Wars' to avoid confusing people (that was Lucasfilm argument against it). I promise to buy it.

Forgot the X-Wing Books. Those are amazing. Truce at Bakura, I Jedi.

[Euphrosyne]

Matthew Stover (Shatterpoint, Revenge of the Sith, Traitor) is really good with character's psychology. You already mentioned Thrawn - Timmothy Zahn's works are always a safe bet (my only complain is he tends to use the same characters in all his books - it's always Thrawn, Car'das, Mara), Survivor's Quest is nice epilogue for Republic vs. Empire post-RotJ arc, taking place after peace treaty is signed. James Luceno comes up with great stories (like Darth Plagueis) but I'm not a big fan of his style. Anderson has his good moments (Jedi Academy trilogy), his mediocre moments (Darksaber) and his rather bad moments when he writes together with his wife (Young Jedi Knights series). Troy Denning wrote a lot of Legends stuff - his books are usually action-oriented, so you can give him a try if you're into this kind of stuff (I'm rather into story \ character stuff).

Stover's great, and his EU books should be required reading. So should his non-Star Wars SF/F. Easily my favorite genre fiction author.

 

Zahn's great. Luceno had very high highs (Labyrinth of Evil) and was always competent at minimum. Denning was uneven, although fans hated on him unfairly for Star by Star. I have never liked any of KJA's Star Wars books, and I think that Darksaber is particularly execrable.

 

Don't forget that the late Brian Daley's ancient Han Solo Adventures basically defined the EU (more so, I think, than the contemporary Splinter of the Mind's Eye). They were iconic bits of storytelling done by an old master, with strong characters that really captured the essence of the galactic underbelly witnessed in Chalmun's cantina and Jabba's palace. Both James Luceno (Daley's writing partner) and Stover have said that their own EU work was written in significant part to do justice to Daley's memory and vision. If Solo: A Star Wars Story is even half as good as Han Solo at Stars' End, it will be a success.

 

In addition, I always thought that the late Aaron Allston was one of the EU's top writers - his X-Wing novels in particular were outstanding. They remain the funniest things Star Wars has ever produced, new or old. Face and Ton were an outstanding comedy team, and only the members of Red Flight in Starfighters of Adumar gave them a run for their money. But Allston could tug at your heartstrings, too; Iron Fist, in particular, contains one of the most emotional moments I've ever read in a book. There are two scenes in any media that always make me tear up: the death scene in Iron Fist and the death scene at the end of Of Mice and Men. Allston's non-X-Wing books were sometimes a bit weaker (although I will always have a soft spot for Rebel Dream and Rebel Stand), but always competent.

 

Honestly, outside of what Zahn, Allston, and Mike Stackpole wrote, the entirety of the Bantam Spectra era (1991-99) was forgettable at best (Truce at Bakura, Black Fleet Crisis) and outright awful at worst (Jedi Academy Trilogy, Darksaber, Planet of Twilight).

[Leklor]

I'm getting mixed signals about the Jedi Academy Trilogy!

Is it a "Try and see if you like it" or a "Avoid like the plague"?

Just kidding but I'm honestly unsure of whether to keep it in my reading list or not. As stated above, I liked "some" of Anderson's work (The Saga of Seven Suns) and I have okay-ish memories of Young Jedi Knights (Although it will never reach even a fraction of the quality of "Jedi Apprentice" from Jude Watson. And Dave Wolverton who did the first book too.)

[juliushorst]

Now that it's legends material, it feels like the series went too far into the future. The end of Jacen's story is far enough into the future to wrap up that version of continuity from Return of the Jedi. We were about to start following story lines primarily of people 2 generations removed from the movies. The Legacy comics with Cade for instance weren't really that far into the future anymore, which was originally their big appeal.

Far into the future and far into the past was my favorite part of the EU. Rebellion Era and Clone Wars were too cluttered for me.

 

I bought all the old books when they weren't legends, but I wouldn't buy anything new with a legends tag. In fact I didn't even read the couple of new books they released for the Big 3 after this transition was known. That universe ended in a satisfying manner to me and for me I won't be coming back to that one.

Come on, last thing I remember was Abeloth, after being defeated, attacks some random Jedi and Luke sends a group of Jedi to locate means to destroy her for good. That's a good conclusion?

I treat new canon books the way you would treat new Legends material - usually ignore, maybe cherry-pick something I'm interested about (like the new Thrawn), maybe buy when they are in some bargain bin. I assume there would be some audience for both timelines...

[annabethchase]

Far into the future and far into the past was my favorite part of the EU. Rebellion Era and Clone Wars were too cluttered for me.

 

 

Come on, last thing I remember was Abeloth, after being defeated, attacks some random Jedi and Luke sends a group of Jedi to locate means to destroy her for good. That's a good conclusion?

I treat new canon books the way you would treat new Legends material - usually ignore, maybe cherry-pick something I'm interested about (like the new Thrawn), maybe buy when they are in some bargain bin. I assume there would be some audience for both timelines...

 

There's no reason they can't do new canon material far into the future or past. There's a decent chance that Johnson's next trilogy is not in the Skywalker era at all.

 

Like I said, looking back I wish we had ended after Jacen, but ok Abeloth... She was defeated and the most likely outcome in the legends universe is that she would reappear 100's or 1000's of years later. This story is similar to Sauron in Tolkien's world. He was defeated several times in several different ways and took 1000's of years to regather his strength before going another round. Isildur cutting the one ring from his hand at the end of the 2nd age was I believe 3 to 4 thousand years before Frodo. That's what I think they were going for here.

[juliushorst]

Like I said, looking back I wish we had ended after Jacen, but ok Abeloth... She was defeated and the most likely outcome in the legends universe is that she would reappear 100's or 1000's of years later. This story is similar to Sauron in Tolkien's world. He was defeated several times in several different ways and took 1000's of years to regather his strength before going another round. Isildur cutting the one ring from his hand at the end of the 2nd age was I believe 3 to 4 thousand years before Frodo. That's what I think they were going for here.

 

There were two points where they could ended the timeline and I wouldn't say a word. First time was by the end of Hand of Thrawn duology. It's a 'happy ever after' . The second time was by the end of NJO. It would be a 'so much has changed it's different story now' kind of ending. As we have it now, Abeloth is on the run (they were still looking for something to defeat her in Crucible), Vestara is on the run, Galactic Alliance has sort of reasonable leader for the first time in years but the Empire is in chaos with Daala lurking in the shadow and possibly planning another bid for power. By no means a conclusion I'm happy with.

Dawn of the Jedi era was left without any conclusion.

Legacy got super-rushed ending ('yeah, yeah, Wredd killed all Sith and died himself, happy ever after, go buy movie ticket').

The fact that I'm not the biggest fan of new post-RotJ direction Lucasfilm took (rebellion era books, comics, show and the movie I find quite decent) doesn't help my craving for new Legends either