Following the server mergers, can we please now have objective-based ranked?

[kissingaiur]

You're not supposed to carry. Its a team game. The concept of carry is a flaw in the fact that people want to solo queue and want their ratings to reflect their own performance. This same crap happens in overwatch competitive. No one wants to form teams, so you have the masses solo queuing then crying that they have to carry. Well stop soloing.

 

What? The people on the top of the ranked ladderboard are the players who carry the hardest. That's the whole point of them being up there. The difference between a 1000 rated player and a 2000 is not luck or rng it's skill and their impact in the matches they play. In 8v8 it would be the same system. In a 8v8 system you have less power to influence the game by individual performance that means rating would mean hardly anything at that point.

[Groncho]

40 minutes AHG anyone?

3 hours Civil War?

[kissingaiur]

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Edited November 20, 2017 by kissingaiur

[Tharianus]

The possibility that awful players might be slightly less useless in objective pvp does not make the game anymore carryable for the best players because said useless players are spread around randomly. How carryable each game is is about the format.

 

The ability for strong players to carry games and climb rating would be decidedly less in a solo 8v8 queue for two reasons. First and foremost, deathmatch and playing as close to optimally as possible in it is vastly more difficult and complicated than it is for objectives. The gap between the best, the really good, and the just pretty good is actually quite distinct in arenas but would be noticeably blurrier in objectives. I think this is what people mean when they talk about a game's skill cap. Arenas have a much higher skill cap than warzones do, full stop. The second reason is really simple. Instead of making up a fourth of a 4 man team you make up an eighth of an 8 man team. That change alone cuts your impact in half relative to arenas before any other variables have a chance.

 

 

In LoL for example 5v5 is more popular than 3v3. It was the same in SW:ToR - 8vs8 ranked was way more popular than Arenas (even season 1).

Are you saying Arena is a success? Come on... In that case you can say Galactic Command is a success and everyone likes it.

We have to face it even it is sad:

Ranked PvP is not popular right now.

Every Suggestion that can help to make ranked pvp popular again is very welcome...

 

Well ok if we talk about carry:

Let us forget Team based ranked and implement 1vs1 Queue (including balancing)

So You have 100% influence - if You fail it is your own fault.

The only Person Who you need to carry is yourself.

 

@hottie

Team ranked is pure skill i agree but solo queue?

 

Imagine following situation/example:

You play pub side without guild.

Pubs:

- 8 Pubs including you are in the queue for solo ranked 6 of them are New to pvp or do not know how to Deal damage.

Imps:

- 4 people of Sick twisted individuals (obviously strong pvpers)

And 4 other pvpers from an other guild.

Situation:

The Chance that 2 or 3 members of Sick twisted individuals or the other guild join the same arena is very high right?

While the Chance is very high on pub that you join the arena with some New players.

Are you able to carry 3 New players against 4 experienced pvpers? The answer is obvious.

You cannot win against 4 experienced pvpers all by yourself.

 

And the Bad thing about this: in the next round it is almost the same Situation like before because matchmaking prefer imp vs pub.

 

That is the reason why so many pvpers are frustrated and why people insult new players in ranked.

 

Solo queue only works with cross Server and cross faction.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Tharianus

[DavidAtkinson]

In LoL for example 5v5 is more popular than 3v3. It was the same in SW:ToR - 8vs8 ranked was way more popular than Arenas (even season 1).

Are you saying Arena is a success? Come on... In that case you can say Galactic Command is a success and everyone likes it.

We have to face it even it is sad:

Ranked PvP is not popular right now.

Every Suggestion that can help to make ranked pvp popular again is very welcome...

 

Well ok if we talk about carry:

Let us forget Team based ranked and implement 1vs1 Queue (including balancing)

So You have 100% influence - if You fail it is your own fault.

The only Person Who you need to carry is yourself.

 

@hottie

Team ranked is pure skill i agree but solo queue?

 

Imagine following situation/example:

You play pub side without guild.

Pubs:

- 8 Pubs including you are in the queue for solo ranked 6 of them are New to pvp or do not know how to Deal damage.

Imps:

- 4 people of Sick twisted individuals (obviously strong pvpers)

And 4 other pvpers from an other guild.

Situation:

The Chance that 2 or 3 members of Sick twisted individuals or the other guild join the same arena is very high right?

While the Chance is very high on pub that you join the arena with some New players.

Are you able to carry 3 New players against 4 experienced pvpers? The answer is obvious.

You cannot win against 4 experienced pvpers all by yourself.

 

And the Bad thing about this: in the next round it is almost the same Situation like before because matchmaking prefer imp vs pub.

 

That is the reason why so many pvpers are frustrated and why people insult new players in ranked.

 

Solo queue only works with cross Server and cross faction.

 

Totally agree...

 

You make valid points, but as you an see they don't want 8vs8 ranked like I've said many times before. All they see is ganking in narrow spaces in 4 vs4 arena and call that skill.

 

There are countless more ways to make an impact as an individual in 8 vs 8 than in an arena, but that's just me.

 

Remember those pretty much lost hypergate games when one sin from your team makes a totally unexpected cap of enemy pylon and turns the whole game upside down ? Or the mara who double caps with 4 ppl around him by using intimidating roar ? Spectacular. You can feel the saltiness in enemy ranks.

 

that's impact my friend, especially if you worked for it if you were that sin and mara. You will feel like you've made a difference and of you had some smart rating system to pump up your rating due to that move ? Much more rewarding than ganking in 4vs4 arena.

 

I would even accept a compromise with 8 vs 8 mixed up with arenas just like in unranked, but as much I'd like it to happen I think it will remain as wishful thinking.

Edited November 20, 2017 by DavidAtkinson

[kukumburr]

What? The people on the top of the ranked ladderboard are the players who carry the hardest. That's the whole point of them being up there. The difference between a 1000 rated player and a 2000 is not luck or rng it's skill and their impact in the matches they play. In 8v8 it would be the same system. In a 8v8 system you have less power to influence the game by individual performance that means rating would mean hardly anything at that point.

 

Can you please explain to me how to carry a team as a healer when your other team members are in green 228s and they just run directly into the other team and don't use any cooldowns? Like I'm legit asking because I keep having this happen to me and I can not heal through it and I only have a mez and stun that only last so long. Please tell me your secrets.

[yellow_]

In LoL for example 5v5 is more popular than 3v3. It was the same in SW:ToR - 8vs8 ranked was way more popular than Arenas (even season 1).

Are you saying Arena is a success? Come on... In that case you can say Galactic Command is a success and everyone likes it.

We have to face it even it is sad:

Ranked PvP is not popular right now.

Every Suggestion that can help to make ranked pvp popular again is very welcome...

 

Well ok if we talk about carry:

Let us forget Team based ranked and implement 1vs1 Queue (including balancing)

So You have 100% influence - if You fail it is your own fault.

The only Person Who you need to carry is yourself.

I didn't bring up how carryable games are as a factor in what format should be the ranked format - you did that. How the skill cap of various formats stack up should be taken into account in choosing the best ranked format is totally debatable.

 

I'm just addressing the idea that 4v4 is less carryable than 8v8. It's not.

[Raansu]

What? The people on the top of the ranked ladderboard are the players who carry the hardest. That's the whole point of them being up there. The difference between a 1000 rated player and a 2000 is not luck or rng it's skill and their impact in the matches they play.

 

The majority of high rated players in solo are queue dodgers and queue sync players, and cheaters who have people or alts throw for them (that was a significant issue for a long time on harbinger with a dude boosting using an alt account to throw matches). There's a reason no one cares about the leaderboards or the ratings.

 

 

In 8v8 it would be the same system. In a 8v8 system you have less power to influence the game by individual performance that means rating would mean hardly anything at that point.

 

Ya thats kind of the point. Its a team effort, not a carry effort. Again, systems setup to make you "carry" in team based pvp are flawed and just lead to people finding exploits.. Its the same reason I believe solo ranked queuing shouldn't exist in any pvp game. Just look at the crap show in overwatch. Comp over there should be groups only.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Raansu

[SlightlySychotic]

I didn't bring up how carryable games are as a factor in what format should be the ranked format - you did that. How the skill cap of various formats stack up should be taken into account in choosing the best ranked format is totally debatable.

 

I'm just addressing the idea that 4v4 is less carryable than 8v8. It's not.

 

It absolutely is though. Obviously, a completely lopsided team cannot be saved but a good team can make up for the shortcomings of one or two players. If there's one keyboard turner on your team in arenas and the other team is on your level, guaranteed you're going 0-2. Ignoring the ever present and unfixable class imbalances, arenas typically come down to whoever has the worst teammate.

[kissingaiur]

The majority of high rated players in solo are queue dodgers and queue sync players, and cheaters who have people or alts throw for them (that was a significant issue for a long time on harbinger with a dude boosting using an alt account to throw matches). There's a reason no one cares about the leaderboards or the ratings.

 

 

You do realize that the OP is asking for SOLO RANKED 8v8 right? I am not defending 4v4 solo ranked as a whole but 4v4 solo ranked in context that is it less cancerous then 8v8 solo ranked would be. It's mind blowing that people don't think that the same issues would still be around if there was more people in a match and as well as the fact that the carry potential of one player would be a lot worse. Your rating in a 8v8 solo ranked game would mean hardly anything.

 

You can't assume that since you don't care about rating that means everyone else doesn't. I have played solo ranked for 3 seasons and I did care a lot about my rating when I played competitively. I am in a guild of majority solo ranked players and trust me they care a lot about their rating. Maybe there are some people who play for the "enjoyment" of it but majority do have to care to keep on playing as much as they do. Why else would they play in this system? You think someone would play through 4v4 to get a top three and not care? I beg to differ.

 

Ya thats kind of the point. Its a team effort, not a carry effort. Again, systems setup to make you "carry" in team based pvp are flawed and just lead to people finding exploits.. Its the same reason I believe solo ranked queuing shouldn't exist in any pvp game. Just look at the crap show in overwatch. Comp over there should be groups only.

 

Yes a team can carry but individual performance stands out. That is why you have constantly the same people getting top 3 every season. Because they have carry potential in a team setting and are rewarded with elo.

 

If you believe solo ranked shouldn't exist why are you here? This thread is about introducing solo ranked 8v8 which I am strongly against. 4v4 is cancer and 8v8 would be even more cancer.

 

Also there is nothing stopping you from queuing in a team in Overwatch. If this is what you support and do, why are you complaining about solo ranked in Overwatch when you don't play it? If you want to play in a team go for it but if people want to play solo they shouldn't be subjected to playing in a group just to be competitive.

 

Edited: I wanted to add, If you also think that there is no skill in solo ranked in Overwatch please explain players like Surefour. He gets constantly in the top 10 on his solo account every season. It's not because of RNG, or luck it's because he is extremely talented and carries his team; you are more likely to win with him on your team. There is always going to be other factors in a solo ranked system that hold you back like people throwing or idiots on your team but if you constantly preform at a high level you will always be able to climb in rating.

Edited November 21, 2017 by kissingaiur

[yellow_]

It absolutely is though. Obviously, a completely lopsided team cannot be saved but a good team can make up for the shortcomings of one or two players. If there's one keyboard turner on your team in arenas and the other team is on your level, guaranteed you're going 0-2. Ignoring the ever present and unfixable class imbalances, arenas typically come down to whoever has the worst teammate.

Any blurring of how useless bad players are by the 8v8 format is mathematically guaranteed to work against you just as much as it works for you in the long run. In the same way that their dead weight is a wash in the long run in arenas. This would certainly normalize teams at least somewhat but that doesn't actually have anything to do with how carryable the games would be.

 

Again, your ability to sway each game one way or the other is about the skill cap of the format and how many players there are. As skill cap goes up so does your impact (for better or for worse). As the number of players go up your impact goes down. 8v8 has lower skill cap and double the players, two major strikes against how much relative weight you can pull. There's a reason players like Asana can do things like start 100-10 in 4v4 solo ranked last season. Such a feat would be virtually impossible in a solo 8v8 queue.

 

You can support 8v8 ranked because you think it's more fun or because you think arenas killed the game if you like but supporting them because of a perception that they'll be more carryable is mistaken.

[Hoppinswtor]

Good pvpers don't hate objectives per se - they're just burnt out of carrying bads who have no awareness. Hence deathmatching.

 

8v8 group ranked = you have control of who is on your team and the matches actually matter.

 

These so-called "number farmers" can play objs if given an incentive.

 

Generally speaking, I play huttball, stop caps, etc. But I don't guard anymore. It is usually a net negative for me to guard a node, unless it's a close match and everyone abandons the node. In 8v8 ranked, though, I'd gladly get on a stealth class and guard if necessary. Regs are casual and fun.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Hoppinswtor

[kukumburr]

Solo ranked rating doesn't mean much in 4v4 and that'd be true in solo 8v8 too. And I'm not sure why people are talking about 'carrying' as if that's what wins matches. Being the better team is what wins matches. The only time carrying might matter is if it's already a pretty evenly matched game. In that case having one person who's really good vs. someone who's only good might make the difference. But since who you get on your team is somewhat random that doesn't happen super often. That's why grouped ranked rating is always more meaningful.

 

Solo ranked 8v8 could be 'carried' by individuals though with clutch stealth caps and excellent ball carriers. Again though carrying only really has any meaning if the teams are already fairly even. Which is probably unlikely to happen often because the population still isn't really that large. If they were to bring back 8v8 ranked at all I think I'd just prefer grouped and have the community just run kickballs like they used to.

[yellow_]

Solo ranked rating doesn't mean much in 4v4 and that'd be true in solo 8v8 too. And I'm not sure why people are talking about 'carrying' as if that's what wins matches. Being the better team is what wins matches.

Playing really well with your team is part of carrying and climbing rating. Do you think the best solo ranked players just run around pressing buttons with no regard to what their teammates are up to and manage to keep winning somehow? They follow stuns and mezzes, they off heal or off guard, they focus targets, and generally work with their team to win.

 

Asana hit 100 wins on his merc last season before he hit 10 losses. Let that sink in for a moment. Other good players manage really solid win/loss ratios all the time. The strongest arena players actually pull a very disproportionate amount of weight and reliably climb every season as a result.

Edited November 21, 2017 by yellow_

[kissingaiur]

Solo ranked rating doesn't mean much in 4v4 and that'd be true in solo 8v8 too. And I'm not sure why people are talking about 'carrying' as if that's what wins matches. Being the better team is what wins matches. The only time carrying might matter is if it's already a pretty evenly matched game. In that case having one person who's really good vs. someone who's only good might make the difference. But since who you get on your team is somewhat random that doesn't happen super often. That's why grouped ranked rating is always more meaningful.

 

Solo ranked 8v8 could be 'carried' by individuals though with clutch stealth caps and excellent ball carriers. Again though carrying only really has any meaning if the teams are already fairly even. Which is probably unlikely to happen often because the population still isn't really that large. If they were to bring back 8v8 ranked at all I think I'd just prefer grouped and have the community just run kickballs like they used to.

 

Have you ever experienced solo ranked in your life? Yes, there are skilled players who carry. I have personally witnessed players who basically had to solo kill everyone on the other team because their own team was dead weight or times where 2 players on your team die and you have to duo 4 players to win. I would call those carried.

 

An example of a heavily populated game with a solo ranked system is Overwatch. In Overwatch there are the same pros getting top 500 in grand master every season playing solo ranked. Some of which are easily top 10 in the world out of everyone, even teams; an example I gave was Surefour (he is considered one of the best players in the world). These players are a prime example of players who carry. It isn't a myth.

[Siouve]

In LoL for example 5v5 is more popular than 3v3. It was the same in SW:ToR - 8vs8 ranked was way more popular than Arenas (even season 1).

Are you saying Arena is a success? Come on... In that case you can say Galactic Command is a success and everyone likes it.

We have to face it even it is sad:

Ranked PvP is not popular right now.

Every Suggestion that can help to make ranked pvp popular again is very welcome...

 

Well ok if we talk about carry:

Let us forget Team based ranked and implement 1vs1 Queue (including balancing)

So You have 100% influence - if You fail it is your own fault.

The only Person Who you need to carry is yourself.

 

@hottie

Team ranked is pure skill i agree but solo queue?

 

Imagine following situation/example:

You play pub side without guild.

Pubs:

- 8 Pubs including you are in the queue for solo ranked 6 of them are New to pvp or do not know how to Deal damage.

Imps:

- 4 people of Sick twisted individuals (obviously strong pvpers)

And 4 other pvpers from an other guild.

Situation:

The Chance that 2 or 3 members of Sick twisted individuals or the other guild join the same arena is very high right?

While the Chance is very high on pub that you join the arena with some New players.

Are you able to carry 3 New players against 4 experienced pvpers? The answer is obvious.

You cannot win against 4 experienced pvpers all by yourself.

 

And the Bad thing about this: in the next round it is almost the same Situation like before because matchmaking prefer imp vs pub.

 

That is the reason why so many pvpers are frustrated and why people insult new players in ranked.

 

Solo queue only works with cross Server and cross faction.

 

thanks

[kukumburr]

Have you ever experienced solo ranked in your life? Yes, there are skilled players who carry. I have personally witnessed players who basically had to solo kill everyone on the other team because their own team was dead weight or times where 2 players on your team die and you have to duo 4 players to win. I would call those carried.

 

An example of a heavily populated game with a solo ranked system is Overwatch. In Overwatch there are the same pros getting top 500 in grand master every season playing solo ranked. Some of which are easily top 10 in the world out of everyone, even teams; an example I gave was Surefour (he is considered one of the best players in the world). These players are a prime example of players who carry. It isn't a myth.

 

Yes I've done solo ranked and I've gone up against teams that had a known extremely good player on it but had one or two bad players on their team and so my only overall somewhat good team crushed them. One good player cannot make up for an otherwise bad team unless the opposing team is also bad. Overwatch works a bit better since there's a larger population to draw from, so it can match people with similar ratings/skills better. That's not the case for SWTOR. Not to mention Overwatch is a FPS and plays completely differently to SWTOR so I'm not sure why they should be comparable. Even in Overwatch though grouped play is much more impressive than solo play. See: Overwatch world cup and the new Overwatch league.

[DavidAtkinson]

Have you ever experienced solo ranked in your life? Yes, there are skilled players who carry. I have personally witnessed players who basically had to solo kill everyone on the other team because their own team was dead weight or times where 2 players on your team die and you have to duo 4 players to win. I would call those carried.

 

An example of a heavily populated game with a solo ranked system is Overwatch. In Overwatch there are the same pros getting top 500 in grand master every season playing solo ranked. Some of which are easily top 10 in the world out of everyone, even teams; an example I gave was Surefour (he is considered one of the best players in the world). These players are a prime example of players who carry. It isn't a myth.

 

Please don't try to convince us that there are some kind PVP immortal gods who solo kill everyone when their own team is dead.

 

Yeah.. cheaters maybe, rigged games maybe, but that cannot be done legit unless the opposing team was so bad that they had really no idea what to do.

 

 

There are good players who can carry but NOT to the extent you described in your post. Operatives are most likely to do it as they have all the tools for it. I've lost games to an operative on darth malgus because he had garbage team 3 times in a row and he won every damn time...

 

 

Also, matchmaking is very bad. Grouping people with similar rating means that Jeff, DPS Jugg with 980 rating will always get teamed with lower rated people(, throwers, quitters, Green Gears). Not much hope for him is there ?

 

 

I strongly believe that 8 vs 8 ranked will have a much larger player pool because PVP-ers from regs would be more likely to play objective based ranked and let's face the truth: a lot of people hate arenas..

Edited November 21, 2017 by DavidAtkinson

[kissingaiur]

Yes I've done solo ranked and I've gone up against teams that had a known extremely good player on it but had one or two bad players on their team and so my only overall somewhat good team crushed them. One good player cannot make up for an otherwise bad team unless the opposing team is also bad. Overwatch works a bit better since there's a larger population to draw from, so it can match people with similar ratings/skills better. That's not the case for SWTOR. Not to mention Overwatch is a FPS and plays completely differently to SWTOR so I'm not sure why they should be comparable. Even in Overwatch though grouped play is much more impressive than solo play. See: Overwatch world cup and the new Overwatch league.

 

If you are content on your position that a player(s) can't carry in solo ranked you are free to continue think as you like; I don't feel like wasting more time trying to arguing a brick wall. Agree to disagree. I do like to remind you that the discussion is side-tracked from the OP's post. You are nit-picking a factor in which the context was a comparison of an individuals impact in 4v4 solo ranked verse 8v8 solo ranked; this has nothing to do with team ranked play. This is a thread that is suggesting that we have 8v8 solo ranked because of the servers slight population growth. Seeing how negative your position on solo ranked is as a whole, can we at least find common ground in stating that 8v8 solo ranked would be just as cancerous as 4v4 solo ranked?

 

Overwatch works a bit better since there's a larger population to draw from, so it can match people with similar ratings/skills better. That's not the case for SWTOR. Not to mention Overwatch is a FPS and plays completely differently to SWTOR so I'm not sure why they should be comparable. Even in Overwatch though grouped play is much more impressive than solo play. See: Overwatch world cup and the new Overwatch league.

 

Overwatch comparison was not originally brought up by me but another player. I actually find it relevant because the same things in their solo rank ladder (even being heavily more populated with an arguably more accurate MMR system) are happening in this game; constantly seeing the same players on top of the leader board in a solo ranked/team based game.

Edited November 21, 2017 by kissingaiur

[kissingaiur]

(, throwers, quitters, Green Gears). Not much hope for him is there ?

 

I like to remind you that bolster is a thing in this game. I can't believe people are still using this excuse in their arguments.

Edited November 21, 2017 by kissingaiur

[Aeneas_Falco]

I like to remind you that bolster is a thing in this game. I can't believe people are still using this excuse in their arguments.

 

Bolster only takes you up to 242.

 

Having full BiS isn't a huge advantage but it is an advantage nonetheless. Pit two players of equal skill in the same spec against one another, one in 248s and the other in bolstered greens, and the one in 248s would win the majority of the time. People in bolstered green 228s are going to have a shallow health pool and no set bonus.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Aeneas_Falco

[SlightlySychotic]

Just wanted to touch on a few things:

 

First, I absolutely agree that matchmaking needs a rework. However, it’s not a mutually exclusive solution and I just don’t believe there is any solution that would actually fix arenas. Worse, if matchmaking changes were implemented now then it would require that arenas be offered another “fair chance” to see if the changes make them work. If they don’t, that just means more wasted time. I’d much rather they add objective matches to ranked then rework how matchmaking works.

 

Second, to the “more people means more problems,” I’m sorry but I just don’t agree or I don’t see your point. The only point of concern is that, in theory, it increases the opportunity for collusion but, in practice, I don’t think it will be an issue. Most groups just cannot field 8 players — if they could, we’d still have 8v8 group ranked. That means they have to rely on PUGs to pick up the slack. And since the point of queue syncing is to take advantage of the lower numbers of the weaker faction aren’t likely to be the most skilled or best geared. Most syncers aren’t going to have the patience for that. That’s on top of cross-faction already existing in 8v8s. The benefits to queue syncing just aren’t as free as they are in arenas.