What's the attraction to Arcann?

[Vagessel]

I don’t think he makes a compelling love interest.

 

An excellent story could have been made about his crimes catching up to him. Citizens united in demanding a trial for the war crimes he committed. The struggle to reconcile his apologetic stance but ultimately recognizing that justice must be done. Either by having Arcann tried and convicted of war crimes or be asasinated, say by the father of one of the millions of victims from his five planet bombardment.

 

THAT would make a challenging and compelling story.

 

Btw, Vader being given eternal redemption after slicing and dicing little children was grotesque.

[Milishor]

oh what is happening with Dragon Age? Are they not doing 4?

^^

[Ralei]

There isn't any equivalent in our real world. It's all well and good to hop on a moral high horse and say "no amount of fatherly abuse is adequate to acquit Hitler." That's a pointless position to have on the matter of Arcann. In our real world, the one that hosted Hitler, there exist no living gods who literally mind-control good-hearted souls into acts of barbarism. Equating Arcann and Hitler isn't merely apples/oranges, it's like comparing imaginary apples to real life black holes. Any rhetorical position on Arcann's morality wrapped up in any notion of Hitler is already failed. We can only understand and judge Arcann within the scope of the universe he occupies. And in that universe, he was raised by evil incarnate. There's no real world equivalent.

 

So ... let's try to understand Arcann within the scope his universe.

 

Anakin, not Hitler, serves as a model for comparison.

 

 

Others have already pointed out that Anakin's story was vastly different from Arcann's and I agree. But this is not what we're really after.

 

It is not a matter of whether he deserves to be redeemed or not. This is about whether I want to ROMANCE him. So whether I think Space Hitler is an apt description or whether we go the more supernatural route and say he's The Son of Evil Incarnate created and manipulated into bringing death and destruction to trillions of people against his will, I DON'T WANT TO ROMANCE EITHER OF THOSE THINGS. GOOD LORD. lol ::confused::D

[Ralei]

I also had to look up the word redemption because I don't think we're all using it the same way. Redemption is paying for something. Arcann isn't redeemed because he shows remorse and knows he did bad things. That's not paying for squat. Redemption would be paying for his crimes with his life either by death or imprisonment, just like Anakin or Jesus (the two obvious redemption stories that come to mind).

 

Arcann being allowed to walk around free is him being FORGIVEN by the Outlander and somehow all the Alliance members. He's not REDEEMED himself at all. How do you redeem yourself for killing and oppressing trillions of people? I guess that's another argument, but I don't think that kinda-sorta helping kill Vaylin is gonna tip the scales very much lol

[Eshvara]

He does say he's beyond redemption. And perhaps that's true. I much rather rampage the universe with Arcann however. I liked him the most pre kotet.

 

Not gonna lie!

Edited October 18, 2017 by Eshvara

[Asmodesu]

redeemed is just simple way for players describing it, joining the alliance and helping the Outlander he caused all that destruction over is his act of attempting to start to atone for what he's done, and of course his story stuff stopped before anyone gets to see him do anything. As usual. and he says he's beyond redemption so it's not really a redemption arc, it is a second chance for him however.

 

Arcann as dark-side is rage-controlled Arcann. Force amplifies emotions and even jedi do stupid stuff, even to the point of murdering large groups of people, when they 'fall'. He's controlled by that, the Voss healing healed the rage from him, allowing him to have a different outlook and recognise the consequences of what he's done. After that he mentions multiple times his fear of falling back into the man he was as Emperor, the man that killed his brother (even as dark side he can barely admit that, often stumbling on the words. regret. . Mainly when the Commander bring sup Nathema, Arcann states he can't go, because of the risk of losing himself again.

 

It's the little things that make the character interesting to me, I see a lot more depth there then is generally bandied around.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Asmodesu

[Tadagyt]

even jedi do stupid stuff, even to the point of murdering large groups of people, when they 'fall'.

 

Not just the jedi. Malcolm sacrificed Ruan and Duro just to keep the black cipher codes... sure, Satele and Theron saved Duro when they found out, but Ruan wasn't that lucky.

That's from the SWTOR book Annihilation.

[BlackSilverRoar]

Good guys turn bad, bad guys turn good - that's Star Wars. At least, Arcann was never a whiny meh acted character like Mannakin Skywalker. He always seemed at odds/ pissed at Valkorion, rather than his utter tool. Also, he always had that alpha quality, and was far more mature and objective than Annakin/ Vader - who had his temper tantrums.

 

To me, Arcann is a much more interesting character.

(The OP made a lot of really good points, btw.)

 

 

As for why he is redeemed, I'll use the Xena Warrior Princess analogy (there are plenty others): she commuted atrocities in her past, then sought redemption. She had a [long] journey as a good gal (with some companions), helping A LOT of people. Bad turned good 》 it happens. It's not just a one way street, the other way.

Edited October 19, 2017 by Willjb

[Lunafox]

Good guys turn bad, bad guys turn good - that's Star Wars. At least, Arcann was never a whiny meh acted character like Mannakin Skywalker. He always seemed at odds/ pissed at Valkorion, rather than his utter tool. Also, he always had that alpha quality, and was far more mature and objective than Annakin/ Vader - who had his temper tantrums.

 

To me, Arcann is a much more interesting character.

(The OP made a lot of really good points, btw.)

 

 

As for why he is redeemed, I'll use the Xena Warrior Princess analogy (there are plenty others): she commuted atrocities in her past, then sought redemption. She had a [long] journey as a good gal (with some companions), helping A LOT of people. Bad turned good 》 it happens. It's not just a one way street, the other way.

 

At least Anakin had good reasons for say, killing all the Tuskan raiders. They killed his mom, he avenged her death. Arcaan threw a fit because he felt outplayed by the Outlander and burned five planets worth of people, their homes and cities to the ground. I don't think he ever had an 'alpha' quality to him. In the video, even as children, he lagged behind his brother in everything. Even in the game, there were times, he had to backtrack cause he feared ticking off Vaylin...he'd say something, she'd give him the look and he'd back track...'not you of course, or except you...' that kind of stuff. Not really alpha material there if he's cowing to his more powerful crazy sister.

 

Also Anakin wanted nothing more than to save his wife. He worried about his close family, like his mother, he worried about losing Padme and wanted to save her from what he thought was certain death. Who did Arcann care about? No one that we saw. He might have cared for his brother for a while, but he ended up killing him. Killed his dad. At least Anakin cared about his family and even after he was corrupted into Vader, he took it hard when the Emperor lied to him about Padme's fate.

 

Thus far, I think there are more parallels between Arcann and Kylo than Arcann and Vader/Anakin. Kylo throws fits just like Arcann does and Kylo, like Arcann doesn't really seem to care about much other than himself and his personal obsession.

[Tadagyt]

Arcaan threw a fit because he felt outplayed by the Outlander and burned five planets worth of people, their homes and cities to the ground.

 

As the DS inquisitor says: Murder and mayhem await! LOL --been leveling a SIN and that quote came to my mind.

[Lunafox]

As the DS inquisitor says: Murder and mayhem await! LOL --been leveling a SIN and that quote came to my mind.

 

Yeah, mine says that too, but she hasn't killed trillions.

[IoNonSoEVero]

At least Anakin had good reasons for say, killing all the Tuskan raiders. They killed his mom, he avenged her death. Arcaan threw a fit because he felt outplayed by the Outlander and burned five planets worth of people, their homes and cities to the ground. I don't think he ever had an 'alpha' quality to him. In the video, even as children, he lagged behind his brother in everything. Even in the game, there were times, he had to backtrack cause he feared ticking off Vaylin...he'd say something, she'd give him the look and he'd back track...'not you of course, or except you...' that kind of stuff. Not really alpha material there if he's cowing to his more powerful crazy sister.

 

Also Anakin wanted nothing more than to save his wife. He worried about his close family, like his mother, he worried about losing Padme and wanted to save her from what he thought was certain death. Who did Arcann care about? No one that we saw. He might have cared for his brother for a while, but he ended up killing him. Killed his dad. At least Anakin cared about his family and even after he was corrupted into Vader, he took it hard when the Emperor lied to him about Padme's fate.

 

Thus far, I think there are more parallels between Arcann and Kylo than Arcann and Vader/Anakin. Kylo throws fits just like Arcann does and Kylo, like Arcann doesn't really seem to care about much other than himself and his personal obsession.

 

This. Anakin wanted to save his wife and baby. He didn't kill the Tusken Raiders for fun but because of what they did to his mom. When he told the Jedi that he was worried about someone, their answer was to shrug and tell him to just stop being attached to that person. Palpatine on the other hand pretended to care and to offer him a way to save the woman he loved.

 

I think it's also important that if you look at the way Anakin was treated by the Jedi in general, it wasn't very nice. They didn't bother getting his mom out of slavery and just expected him to leave Tatooine and never think about her again, much less care. Obi-Wan never has a kind word for him. The Jedi Council decides from the moment they see him that there's something "dark sided" about him. They are awful to his padawan, to the point where even when she's invited to rejoin the Jedi, she declines.

 

Palpatine's the only authority-type figure that really seems to listen and care, and thus, Anakin's pretty much a sitting duck for him to manipulate.

 

Arcann on the other hand cares for no one, and comes across very much as Kylo Ren does - a spoiled emo brat.

[BlackSilverRoar]

At least Anakin had good reasons for say, killing all the Tuskan raiders. They killed his mom, he avenged her death. Arcaan threw a fit because he felt outplayed by the Outlander and burned five planets worth of people, their homes and cities to the ground. I don't think he ever had an 'alpha' quality to him. In the video, even as children, he lagged behind his brother in everything. Even in the game, there were times, he had to backtrack cause he feared ticking off Vaylin...he'd say something, she'd give him the look and he'd back track...'not you of course, or except you...' that kind of stuff. Not really alpha material there if he's cowing to his more powerful crazy sister.

 

Also Anakin wanted nothing more than to save his wife. He worried about his close family, like his mother, he worried about losing Padme and wanted to save her from what he thought was certain death. Who did Arcann care about? No one that we saw. He might have cared for his brother for a while, but he ended up killing him. Killed his dad. At least Anakin cared about his family and even after he was corrupted into Vader, he took it hard when the Emperor lied to him about Padme's fate.

 

Thus far, I think there are more parallels between Arcann and Kylo than Arcann and Vader/Anakin. Kylo throws fits just like Arcann does and Kylo, like Arcann doesn't really seem to care about much other than himself and his personal obsession.

 

^I disagree. It seemed like Arcann did what he did partly as a deterrence of the Outlander's meddling. Mess with him and he'll make everybody pay for it; it's nothing new in war. Vader got pissed and cut his son's hand off, couldn't control his outburst even in his initial Ep.IV scene with Leia; Annakin was whiny and immature in his Ep.II days, complaining endlessly about one thing or another up to Ep.III. Arcann is a less emotional/ dispassionate, colder and more objective: more of a predator.

 

Your video comments are skewed and speculative: it doesn't show ANY proof to him "falling behind", if you're trying to somehow spin the scene with only him and Thexan fighting Zakuul Knights, Roman style, and their victories. It looked like the brothers were helping each other and growing a bond, as shown throughout multiple scenes. But, Annakin [admits] he's a slow learner, and he does a lousy job in his Ep.II to III fights: he's all over the place, and losing lightsabers, limbs and Death Stars that he failed to defend. Such a tough guy fighting younglings. While, Arcann kept bringing home trophies after trophies.

 

 

Also, in Episode IV, Vader cows to Grand Moff Tarkin telling him what to do (furthermore, Sidious); never see Valkorion tell Arcann to do anything. Even Tarkin was more objective than Vader, who like Arcann, used fear to entice people to fall in line and send a message to his enemies - blowing up Alderan with the Death Star. Arcann was at least diplomatic with his sister, not to offend an strong ally, which was a smart move. Rather than Vader, who pisses his allies off - brilliant. Vader is an overglorified hack.

 

 

 

 

I can agree to disagree. But, if people are going to try to skew Arcann, don't think that Vader is above scrutiny.

Edited October 19, 2017 by Willjb

[Lunafox]

^I disagree. It seemed like Arcann did what he did partly as a deterrence of the Outlander's meddling. Mess with him and he'll make everybody pay for it; it's nothing new in war. Vader got pissed and cut his son's hand off, couldn't control his outburst even in his initial Ep.IV scene with Leia; Annakin was whiny and immature in his Ep.II days, complaining endlessly about one thing or another up to Ep.III. Arcann is a less emotional/ dispassionate, colder and more objective: more of a predator.

 

Your video comments are skewed and speculative: it doesn't show ANY proof to him "falling behind", if you're trying to somehow spin the scene with only him and Thexan fighting Zakuul Knights, Roman style, and their victories. It looked like the brothers were helping each other and growing a bond, as shown throughout multiple scenes. But, Annakin [admits] he's a slow learner, and he does a lousy job in his Ep.II to III fights: he's all over the place, and losing lightsabers. While, Arcann kept bringing home trophies after trophies.

 

Also, in Episode IV, Vader cows to Grand Moff Tarkin telling him what to do (furthermore, Sidious); never see Valkorion tell Arcann to do anything. Even Tarkin was more objective than Vader, who like Arcann, used fear to notice people to fall in line and send a message to his enemies - blowing up Alderan with the Death Star. Arcann was at least diplomatic with his sister, not to offend an strong ally, which was I smart move. Rather than Vader, who pisses his allies off - brilliant.

 

 

 

 

I can agree to disagree. But, if people are going to try to skew Arcann, don't think that Vader is above scrutiny.

 

That's the joy of a discussion. And I disagree with you as well lol. Vader had legitimate reasons for his actions, he cared about others. I've seen no evidence of Arcann caring about anyone.

 

I don't see my view of the video as skewed, every scene showed Thexan was the superior pupil in every discipline. In the first polearm scene, Arcann is soundly defeated. Thexan prevailed and kicked the crap out of the Zakuul Knight. And with siblings there is rivalry. It had to smart that Thexan was always better. As a person too, because he would turn back and help his weaker, less talented brother. Thexan was also the first to construct his lightsaber while Arcann looked on with both admiration and envy. Even Valkorian says that envy and jealousy are Arcann's greatest faults. Then there are the scenes where the twins are out on their campaigns. Arcann was badly hurt, Thexan was not. At every turn Arcann was less than Thexan.

 

Arcann didn't bring his trophies home alone, it was in partnership with his brother and if Thexan hadn't bailed him out, he would've been dead on the battlefield.

 

You never see Valkorian order him, but it's a bit hard to order someone when they refuse to speak to you and just glare at you with disapproval. Even Senya said, Valkorion wouldn't talk to any of them.

 

I also disagree with your point about the Outlander. Arcann stole years of their life, and destroyed civilizations. It made sense for the Outlander to want take back what was stolen. Arcann didn't have to erect battle stations and oppress the Empire and the Republic. He didn't have to go to their capitol and starter worlds and raze them either. He could have been content to have captured his 'father's killer' and left it at that, but instead of blaming one person, he takes it out against trillions of people who didn't have anything to do with it.

 

So, agree to disagree. You see him as this great guy, I don't.

[IoNonSoEVero]

The other point with Vader vs. Arcann remains that Vader took the initiative to sacrifice himself for Luke. That was his redemption. Luke may have talked to him to give him hope, but he was the one who had to take that step to sacrifice himself and save his child, at a great cost to himself. And even before that you see Vader trying to change...trying to reach out to Luke instead of killing him.

 

Arcann is pulled from the rubble and taken to Voss by his mommy for a magic ceremony. There is nothing there he does of his own volition to redeem himself. There is no sacrifice. There is notbing but a magic removal of his anger and his assurance that he has changed.

[BlackSilverRoar]

That's the joy of a discussion. And I disagree with you as well lol. Vader had legitimate reasons for his actions, he cared about others. I've seen no evidence of Arcann caring about anyone.

 

I don't see my view of the video as skewed, every scene showed Thexan was the superior pupil in every discipline. In the first polearm scene, Arcann is soundly defeated. Thexan prevailed and kicked the crap out of the Zakuul Knight. And with siblings there is rivalry. It had to smart that Thexan was always better. As a person too, because he would turn back and help his weaker, less talented brother. Thexan was also the first to construct his lightsaber while Arcann looked on with both admiration and envy. Even Valkorian says that envy and jealousy are Arcann's greatest faults. Then there are the scenes where the twins are out on their campaigns. Arcann was badly hurt, Thexan was not. At every turn Arcann was less than Thexan.

 

Arcann didn't bring his trophies home alone, it was in partnership with his brother and if Thexan hadn't bailed him out, he would've been dead on the battlefield.

 

You never see Valkorian order him, but it's a bit hard to order someone when they refuse to speak to you and just glare at you with disapproval. Even Senya said, Valkorion wouldn't talk to any of them.

 

I also disagree with your point about the Outlander. Arcann stole years of their life, and destroyed civilizations. It made sense for the Outlander to want take back what was stolen. Arcann didn't have to erect battle stations and oppress the Empire and the Republic. He didn't have to go to their capitol and starter worlds and raze them either. He could have been content to have captured his 'father's killer' and left it at that, but instead of blaming one person, he takes it out against trillions of people who didn't have anything to do with it.

 

So, agree to disagree. You see him as this great guy, I don't.

 

^One scene where he gets hit once by a guard when he was a kid doesn't validate anything. We don't see the moment before - perhaps he was taking on more guards than Thexan - thus, your comments about milking that are PURELY speculative. You're spinning it. Arcann was clearly more mentally taxed, which I think it was - because of his father, than Thexan, who wasn't disturbed: that's reasonable. And more skewing》 [Arcann] used the tool to put the crystal in the saber, while all Thexan did was hold it. Thexan came to console Arcann, with troopers who were saving him, which was [far] less severe than Sidious CLEARLY saving Vader's life in Ep.III. Furthermore, Vader isn't even capable of making or even modifying his own suit! - Hack, big time. Also, Valkorion referred not to Arcann's physical ability in his comment, to be fair.

 

"Arcann stole years of their life, and destroyed civilizations." - rather than Vader who kept getting his @ss kicked across the galaxy.

Arcann was in charge of the most powerful empire in the galaxy, so it's a different situation than Sidious' reign in his empire - we can only speculate.

 

But, yeah, you see Vader as this great warrior when I think anything but.

 

To each their own, I suppose.

Edited October 19, 2017 by Willjb

[Lunafox]

The other point with Vader vs. Arcann remains that Vader took the initiative to sacrifice himself for Luke. That was his redemption. Luke may have talked to him to give him hope, but he was the one who had to take that step to sacrifice himself and save his child, at a great cost to himself. And even before that you see Vader trying to change...trying to reach out to Luke instead of killing him.

 

Arcann is pulled from the rubble and taken to Voss by his mommy for a magic ceremony. There is nothing there he does of his own volition to redeem himself. There is no sacrifice. There is notbing but a magic removal of his anger and his assurance that he has changed.

 

I agree, Vader sacrificed because he could see the Emperor trying to manipulate Luke into the same life he had. Vader's redemption was achieved by his sacrifice and love for his son, which at the end, he understood and regretted what he'd done.

[Asmodesu]

Well Arcann did protect his mother from Vaylin's attack when he was almost spent, before she took off with him in the shuttle etc. So saying he would never care about anyone, well he did on screen, even if just once.

[Lunafox]

^One scene where he gets hit once by a guard when he was a kid doesn't validate anything. You're spinning it. Arcann was clearly more mentally taxed, which I think was - because of his father, than Thexan, who wasn't disturbed. That's more skewing: Arcann put the crystal in the saber, while all Thexan did was hold it. Thexan came to console Thexan, with troopers who were saving him, which was [far] less severe than Sidious CLEARLY saving Vader's life in Ep.III. Furthermore, Vader isn't even capable of making or even modifying his own suit! - Hack, big time. Also, Valkorion referred not to Arcann's physical ability in his comment, to be fair.

 

"Arcann stole years of their life, and destroyed civilizations." - rather than Vader who kept getting his @as kicked across the galaxy.

Arcann was in charge of the most powerful empire in the galaxy, so it's a different situation than Sidious' reign in his empire - we can only speculate.

 

But, yeah, you see Vader as this great warrior when I think anything but.

 

To each their own, I suppose.

 

Clearly the crystal scene is up to interpretation, you have yours and I have mine. When you put all the scenes together as they were shown in the video, the takeaway was the Thexan was the superior warrior and person. I don't think Arcann was taxed more, just showing early indications of his anger issues and lack of control. Which Thexan had, as you said yourself, he wasn't as disturbed about it. He coped, so again, Thexan is more emotionally mature than Arcann, both as a child and as an adult. Thexan coped when their father didn't act impressed over their victory over the Imps and Pubs. Arcann couldn't cope, and attacked...ended up killing his brother. Arcann a problem child that grew into a problem man-child.

 

Anakin's injuries on Mustafar...yes, they were worse, he lost both legs and his left arm to Obi-wan and yes the Emperor saves him. (Personally, this scene vexes me, because I feel Obi-wan should have ended him, instead of walking away to let him suffer...not very Jedi-like of Obiwan...the Emperor could've used his ritual to keep someone important to him from dying or bring him back, but this is for another discussion) Anyway, I'd say losing an arm and an eye and part of your face is bad enough. Thexan had to save him. Both needed saving, so in that they're equal.

 

Where is it said that Arcann made or modified his own mask? He ordered it to be intimidating (per the story "Brothers") but he didn't make it or augment it himself. Valkorian didn't have to highlight Arcann's inferiority because that was already established by the video and story. But I did think it was interesting to highlight his envy and jealousy and compare it to the old gods.

 

Arcann's empire didn't last...whether because of Arcann, or Vaylin or the Outlander, or story circumstances we don't know of. In the current time frame, the Empire was the big deal and big bad and now it's The First Order.

 

But as you say, to each their own, it's been interesting reading your pov.

Edited October 19, 2017 by Lunafox

[Lunafox]

Well Arcann did protect his mother from Vaylin's attack when he was almost spent, before she took off with him in the shuttle etc. So saying he would never care about anyone, well he did on screen, even if just once.

 

I do remember that, now that you mention that, but as you say, it was just the one time and I wonder if he truly cared, or if she was a convenient ally. I hope it was the former, a decent villain needs (at least) one redeeming quality.

[BlackSilverRoar]

Clearly the crystal scene is up to interpretation, you have yours and I have mine. When you put all the scenes together as they were shown in the video, the takeaway was the Thexan was the superior warrior and person. I don't think Arcann was taxed more, just showing early indications of his anger issues and lack of control. Which Thexan had, as you said yourself, he wasn't as disturbed about it. He coped, so again, Thexan is more emotionally mature than Arcann, both as a child and as an adult. Thexan coped when their father didn't act impressed over their victory over the Imps and Pubs. Arcann couldn't cope, and attacked...ended up killing his brother. Arcann a problem child that grew into a problem man-child.

 

Anakin's injuries on Mustafar...yes, they were worse, he lost both legs and his left arm to Obi-wan and yes the Emperor saves him. (Personally, this scene vexes me, because I feel Obi-wan should have ended him, instead of walking away to let him suffer...not very Jedi-like of Obiwan...the Emperor could've used his ritual to keep someone important to him from dying or bring him back, but this is for another discussion) Anyway, I'd say losing an arm and an eye and part of your face is bad enough. Thexan had to save him. Both needed saving, so in that they're equal.

 

Where is it said that Arcann made or modified his own mask? He ordered it to be intimidating (per the story "Brothers") but he didn't make it or augment it himself. Valkorian didn't have to highlight Arcann's inferiority because that was already established by the video and story. But I did think it was interesting to highlight his envy and jealous and compare it to the old gods.

 

Arcann's empire didn't last...whether because of Arcann, or Vaylin or the Outlander, or story circumstances we don't know of. In the current time frame, the Empire was the big deal and big bad and now it's The First Order.

 

But as you say, to each their own, it's been interesting reading your pov.

 

^Don't get me wrong, I like Anakin, well Ep.3 on; he's sympathetic even when he's Vader (Ep.4 on: to some degree.) But when people compare Arcann to Vader: I'll put Vader/Anakin in his place.

 

But, yeah, it was an interesting conversation.

Edited October 19, 2017 by Willjb

[IoNonSoEVero]

I do remember that, now that you mention that, but as you say, it was just the one time and I wonder if he truly cared, or if she was a convenient ally. I hope it was the former, a decent villain needs (at least) one redeeming quality.

 

I tend to think it is convenience. He is protecting his ride out of there.

[BlackSilverRoar]

^ I agree with what you said, Vero, about the Jedi earlier: they were very callous and really should've helped Anakin's mom. What padawan in right mind would leave their mother in slavery and be able to train and be fully focused, in good conscience?! D*ck move, Jedi, especially from an organization acting like they were so caring. They were willing the barter whatever for more ship parts, but deciding to leave Schimi (or whatever her name was) Skywalker to the vultures. Also, in Episode 2 we even see and hear Yoda talking about how arrogant and pseudo-pious some of the older Masters have gotten, like that librarian. There was definitely decay in the Jedi Order. Edited October 19, 2017 by Willjb

[Lunafox]

^Don't get me wrong, I like Anakin, well Ep.3 on; he's sympathetic even when he's Vader (Ep.4 on: to some degree.) But when people compare Arcann to Vader: I'll put Vader/Anakin in his place.

 

But, yeah, it was an interesting conversation.

 

Yeah, that's cool. I probably like Anakin more than most...well, when he's not acting whiny, that part bugs me, just like it does with Kylo, but overall, I do enjoy Anakin/Vader.

 

 

I tend to think it is convenience. He is protecting his ride out of there.

I think so too, and I also agree with you about what you said about the Jedi before, and as Willjb says below:

 

^ I agree with what you said, Vero, about the Jedi earlier: they were very callous and really should've helped Anakin's mom. What padawan in right mind would leave their mother in slavery and be able to train and be fully focused, in good conscience?! D*ck move, Jedi, especially from an organization acting like they were so caring. They were willing the barter whatever for more ship parts, but deciding to leave Schimi (or whatever her name was) Skywalker to the vultures. Also, in Episode 2 we even see and hear Yoda talking about how arrogant and pseudo-pious some of the older Masters have gotten, like that librarian. There was definitely decay in the Jedi Order.

 

I agree with you guys on that. I liked the Jedi well enough until the prequels and even Yoda made me angry. I think they should've found a way to help Shmi, it wasn't right they left her in slavery and also in keeping a young child completely away and out of contact with his mum for 10 years. With the Jedi of that time, it was like a self-fulfilling prophecy, they always treated Anakin with suspicion and distrust. It's hard to be loyal to a group that treat you like an outsider all the time. They were cold to him, treated him like an outsider, which made it very easy for Palpatine to swoop in like a beloved grandfatherly figure and mentor. Then, even though they treated him that way, they expected that he should turn on his 'friend' and spy on him for them. That was low, in my thinking. As you say, the Jedi order was rotting from within and they had as much of a hand in how things played out with Anakin as he did, because fundamentally, I think Anakin was a good kid and a good person, he always meant well and wanted to save his loved ones.

[BlackSilverRoar]

Yeah, that's cool. I probably like Anakin more than most...well, when he's not acting whiny, that part bugs me, just like it does with Kylo, but overall, I do enjoy Anakin/Vader.

 

 

I think so too, and I also agree with you about what you said about the Jedi before, and as Willjb says below:

 

 

 

I agree with you guys on that. I liked the Jedi well enough until the prequels and even Yoda made me angry. I think they should've found a way to help Shmi, it wasn't right they left her in slavery and also in keeping a young child completely away and out of contact with his mum for 10 years. With the Jedi of that time, it was like a self-fulfilling prophecy, they always treated Anakin with suspicion and distrust. It's hard to be loyal to a group that treat you like an outsider all the time. They were cold to him, treated him like an outsider, which made it very easy for Palpatine to swoop in like a beloved grandfatherly figure and mentor. Then, even though they treated him that way, they expected that he should turn on his 'friend' and spy on him for them. That was low, in my thinking. As you say, the Jedi order was rotting from within and they had as much of a hand in how things played out with Anakin as he did, because fundamentally, I think Anakin was a good kid and a good person, he always meant well and wanted to save his loved ones.

^I agree; good assessment.