Theories on the Order & Traitor (Umbara spoilers)

[Dracofish]

I've mentioned before the idea of Theron's betrayal being a ploy for characters that have a good relation with him, while being sincere for characters that have alienated him time and again. I think it's totally within reason for him to witness the choices of a "darker" Outlander over the Zakuul storyline, and each "bad" choice pushes him toward this mental breakdown in which he appears out of character but has actually, as the story pointed out, just become massively disillusioned.

 

 

 

There are actually more than a few "Dark" choices that Theron approves of (such as killing Saresh).

Edited September 8, 2017 by Dracofish

[Asmodesu]

Unfortunately, if you choose Emperor/Empress, his canned line boils down to calling you a dictator and that you'd throw him in the brig, "or worse," even if you're his lover. That was a "one size fits all" kick in the gut. Thankfully, my main, a pragmatic Darth Nox, won't be taking the throne because she believes in the concept of a ruling Council, and that absolute power corrupts absolutely.

 

I just wanted to say that my 2 story testing Empress' - definitely took that throne to rule characters never received that line from Theron. They both got his "I wanted to tell you but I knew you would try to talk me down" line instead. Only one was romancing him, I theorise his lines depend on the dialogue you take towards him in Umbara,

The only character of mine that got the "prison, or worse" line was my one that force choked him to see that other version of his chat, which was actually my sole testing character (out of 5) who did not take the throne, since my peacekeeper here is a mustache twirly villain for everything except that end of kotet choice, mostly because I had a thought during kotet that bioware would try to go the lazy route and pin every evil/good lines variation solely to that choice flag. Umbara proved me incorrect, when I'm playing anyway, weirdly enough.

None of my mains have gotten through KotFE, I just have these 5 characters to test the waters of story so to speak.

 

So both ones of mine that took throne got his lighter line, my peacekeeper got his "you'd kill me" type line. Which I found rather cool, and interesting. Which is why I mentioned i theorise it's actually tied to possibly your first reaction to his stuff on the train.

Edited September 8, 2017 by Asmodesu

[IoNonSoEVero]

That's actually an interested correlation. I hadn't made it myself, so thanks. I suppose it's possible for Valkorion to have a hand in this, but the way the Devs have mentioned him in interviews and behind the scenes, it does indicate that Valkorion is truly done for good. Normally I wouldn't be upset to see his return, but such a point has been made that he was truly gone for good at the end of KOTET that it would bother me to see him return.

 

He's gone for good, but I wonder if it's at all possible if he did something before he checked out to cause lasting damage later on. Because he seems pretty smug in his belief that there's a traitor when you're on the elevator to the Eternal Throne, and then there's that line. And from what Theron says, and the end of KOTET, he's literally been plotting against you since the moment you defeated Valkorion.

 

Theron was by himself for a while on Nathema, and we know that Valkorion was too distant from the Outlander to interact with them while they were in the vault. However, he was strong enough to still talk to the Outlander on the *surface* and in the shuttle.Thus, even when he couldn't be with Lana and the Outlander, Valkoiron would have been able to hang out with Theron.

 

Soooo...any chance that while the Outlander and Lana were off on Nathema, Valkorion doctored Theron's implants or planted something in his brain?

 

...Or that Nathema itself made him go mad or pick up some squirrely ideas? He didn't have the same control over the Force that Lana and (some) Outlanders had, so it would be harder for him to resist it, and he does say he feels the void...

Edited September 8, 2017 by IoNonSoEVero

[Dracofish]

I just wanted to say that my 2 story testing Empress' - definitely took that throne to rule characters never received that line from Theron. They both got his "I wanted to tell you but I knew you would try to talk me down" line instead. Only one was romancing him, I theorise his lines depend on the dialogue you take towards him in Umbara,

The only character of mine that got the "prison, or worse" line was my one that force choked him to see that other version of his chat, which was actually my sole testing character (out of 5) who did not take the throne, since my peacekeeper here is a mustache twirly villain for everything except that end of kotet choice, mostly because I had a thought during kotet that bioware would try to go the lazy route and pin every evil/good lines variation solely to that choice flag. Umbara proved me incorrect, when I'm playing anyway, weirdly enough.

None of my mains have gotten through KotFE, I just have these 5 characters to test the waters of story so to speak.

 

So both ones of mine that took throne got his lighter line, my peacekeeper got his "you'd kill me" type line. Which I found rather cool, and interesting. Which is why I mentioned i theorise it's actually tied to possibly your first reaction to his stuff on the train.

 

Very interesting. I ran the FP with my two testers, a Republic-aligned Peacekeeper Knight, and an Empire-aligned Empress Warrior, both romancing him, both Dark 1. They both took the same exact convo options with him and the Peacekeeper got the "I wanted to tell you" line while the Empress got the "you'd throw me in the brig, or worse" comment.

Edited September 8, 2017 by Dracofish

[Asmodesu]

Very interesting. I ran the FP with my two testers, a Republic-aligned Peacekeeper Knight, and an Empire-aligned Empress Warrior, both romancing him, both Dark 1. They both took the same exact convo options with him and the Peacekeeper got the "I wanted to tell you" line while the Empress got the "you'd throw me in the brig, or worse" comment.

 

hmm so it's possible that if there is no variation between the characters except for the throne or ally choice, then that is what chooses it, and possible any after nudge the flag one way or the other. All 3 of mine (so far through) are light V, as useless as that term is now, but made different choices between the throne choice to Umbara itself, but were the same prior to.

all 3 are Sw's:

character 1 - empress, allied with republic, did not spy on the alliance, romanced, asked if his love was an act, got "i wanted to tell you/so much for your dreams of peace" lines

character 2 - peacekeeper, imp allied, spied on alliance, romanced, force choked Theron, got "you'd throw me in prison."

character 3- empress, imperial ally, i can't remember the spies part right now.. likely a no spying, not romanced, tried to just talk to him (no threats etc on umbara), got "i wanted to tell you/so much for your dreams of peace" lines.

 

So no idea what the actual flag is then, for the two branches of attitude from Theron (and PC), I just know that it wasn't just throne/alliance one, for me at least since the empress can get the nicer lines off him. Or my two did.

edit: I have 2 more testers yet to go through though, will try and remember what they do and get then. I'm curious now.

Edited September 8, 2017 by Asmodesu

[Dracofish]

hmm so it's possible that if there is no variation between the characters except for the throne or ally choice, then that is what chooses it, and possible any after nudge the flag one way or the other. All 3 of mine (so far through) are light V, as useless as that term is now, but made different choices between the throne choice to Umbara itself, but were the same prior to.

 

character 1 - empress, allied with republic, did not spy on the alliance, romanced, asked if his love was an act, got "i wanted to tell you/so much for your dreams of peace" lines

character 2 - peacekeeper, imp allied, spied on alliance, romanced, force choked Theron, got "you'd throw me in prison."

character 3- empress, imperial ally, i can't remember the spies part right now.. likely a no spying, not romanced, tried to just talk to him (no threats etc on umbara), got "i wanted to tell you/so much for your dreams of peace" lines.

 

So no idea what the actual flag is then, for the two branches of attitude from Theron (and PC), I just know that it wasn't just throne/alliance one, for me at least since the empress can get the nicer lines off him. Or my two did.

edit: I have 2 more testers yet to go through though, will try and remember what they do and get then. I'm curious now.

 

I'd hate to think it could boil down to class. The only other difference between my two characters is that the Peacekeeper Knight took the spy option and the Empress Warrior did not. So if that choice had any effect, my Warrior should have gotten the "I wanted to tell you" line. Because I tend to play a mildly Dark Jedi (Dark 1), most of the other choices they made throughout the chapters were the same (other than the two big Iokath choices and the throne).

Edited September 8, 2017 by Dracofish

[Asmodesu]

I'd hate to think it could boil down to class. The only other difference between my two characters is that the Peacekeeper Knight took the spy option and the Empress Warrior did not. So if that choice had any effect, my Warrior should have gotten the "I wanted to tell you" line. Because I tend to play a mildly Dark Jedi (Dark 1), most of the other choices they made throughout the chapters were the same (other than the two big Iokath choices and the throne).

 

No, not class all 3 of mine were Sith warriors and got between them both outcomes, I forgot but edited in too late xD

Edited September 8, 2017 by Asmodesu

[kukumburr]

Most of your post does have a good basis. But there is a lot that could be interpreted a different way. I mean, we know Theron has significant trust issues, even with people in the Alliance. Remember when Lana got him captured on Rishi? And if this order had been observing, and had become aware of Theron's issues, they could manipulate him into seeing things their way... but that's just one perspective.

 

I've mentioned before the idea of Theron's betrayal being a ploy for characters that have a good relation with him, while being sincere for characters that have alienated him time and again. I think it's totally within reason for him to witness the choices of a "darker" Outlander over the Zakuul storyline, and each "bad" choice pushes him toward this mental breakdown in which he appears out of character but has actually, as the story pointed out, just become massively disillusioned.

 

On another note, I do like the idea of the double-meaning to Theron's line. I never considered that before, and it would an awesome thing for that to be legit. Though maybe you're unaware, but for "darker" character, his line is actually something like "We both know you would have thrown me in a cell or worse if I had confronted you earlier." Which again could be fodder for Light v Dark alignments equaling a Ploy v Sincere betrayal.

 

It could be the Order manipulating Theron, but the whole big speech thing still feels out of character to me even if he meant what he said. I don't really see him as the type to make a big speech about morality. Although I did play through Umbara on one of my darkside throne-taking characters that was never particularly nice to Theron and it does sound more justified for sure.

 

I could see them doing the real betrayal for players that pushed him too far but fake betrayal for other people thing but I'm not totally sold on it. It'd be interesting but I also don't see how Theron could think joining some shady group that wears skull masks and black robes is the path to galactic peace. And the way he says "I'm sorry, Commander" at the end even if you're awful to him. Plus he leaves the Adegan crystals no matter what (although that could be part of the Order's plans somehow). But yeah it's definitely possible.

 

And while Theron does have trust issues for sure, once you have earned his trust he seems like the type to be 100% loyal. I might be wrong but his whole obsessive loyalty to Teff'ith even though she always claimed to hate him makes me think he's unlikely to turn once he commits. Although a really dark insane character would certainly push anyone's limit so who knows.

 

I hadn't seen that line difference for darker characters so that's neat. Although in that case I suppose he could be assuming you wouldn't try to actually stop him from risking himself. Or like you said the betrayal could be real.

[Dracofish]

No, not class all 3 of mine were Sith warriors and got between them both otucomes, I forgot but edited in too late xD

 

Hmm, then the one character I have similar to yours -

 

Warrior (Dark 1)

Empress (1st choice post-throne was the "send aid" choice)

Empire (urged him not to kill his father)

No Spy

Took all "nice" and romance lines during Umbara

 

She got the "you'd throw me in the brig" line

 

Now I'm starting to think it boils down to alignment, which is a crock.

 

I just realized, I can replay it, can't I? I'll have to do that.

Edited September 8, 2017 by Dracofish

[Asmodesu]

Hmm, then the one character I have similar to yours -

 

Warrior

Empress (1st choice post-throne was the "send aid" choice)

Empire

No Spy

Took all "nice" and romance lines during Umbara

 

She got the "you'd throw me in the brig" line

 

I just realized, I can replay it, can't I? I'll have to do that.

 

I didn't think story one choices could be replayed. However! I had to go double check and I incorrectly remembered the alliance on Iokath for second empress, both empress' allied with the republic. not one imp one rep... I wonder if this is the difference. Sorry trying to narrow it down for peace of mind xD since my characters are messy in choices lmao.

and all 3 of mine were Light V , and got both outcomes with Theron's lines.

Edited September 8, 2017 by Asmodesu

[IoNonSoEVero]

I've only brought my main through Umbara: SW, has gone back and forth but is LS aligned right now. Peacekeeper, helped Zakuul. Allied with Empire, didn't spy on the Alliance, and accused Acina of being the spy (but didn't say so to her face). She didn't threaten Theron on the train and got the nicer speech.

 

During KOTET/KOTFE she did make some choices Theron disapproved of and commented on later - shooting down Senya's ship and killing Kaliyo.

 

I'm wondering if the way one deals with Theron's dad has an impact? My SW basically avoided bashing Malcom in front of Theron, and when Malcom died, she gave Theron a moment and then told him she was there to support him. She got a "thanks, that means a lot" and a "Theron approves."

Edited September 8, 2017 by IoNonSoEVero

[Dracofish]

I didn't think story one choices could be replayed. However! I had to go double check and I incorrectly remembered the alliance on Iokath for second empress, both empress' allied with the republic. not one imp one rep... I wonder if this is the difference. Sorry trying to narrow it down for peace of mind xD since my characters are messy in choices lmao.

and all 3 of mine were Light V , and got both outcomes with Theron's lines.

 

If it turns out that Empire vs Republic has an effect, that's a crock too because even he admits that they're both pretty much the same at that point...unless it's because of his father.

[Dracofish]

I've only brought my main through Umbara: SW, has gone back and forth but is LS aligned right now. Peacekeeper, helped Zakuul. Allied with Empire, didn't spy on the Alliance, and accused Acina of being the spy (but didn't say so to her face). She didn't threaten Theron on the train and got the nicer speech.

 

During KOTET/KOTFE she did make some choices Theron disapproved of and commented on later - shooting down Senya's ship and killing Kaliyo.

 

I'm wondering if the way one deals with Theron's dad has an impact? My SW basically avoided bashing Malcom in front of Theron, and when Malcom died, she gave Theron a moment and then told him she was there to support him. She got a "thanks, that means a lot" and a "Theron approves."

 

I can confirm that my SW made all the same moves on Iokath, so that's not it. And during the expansions, they didn't kill anybody and Arcann is alive with both. The Peacekeeper who DID shoot at Senya's ship got the nice line.

 

It's starting to sound more and more like it's a bunch of things that effect it.

Edited September 8, 2017 by Dracofish

[Asmodesu]

If it turns out that Empire vs Republic has an effect, that's a crock too because even he admits that they're both pretty much the same at that point...unless it's because of his father.

 

I'm confusing myself. No I was correct in my first list for the 3 characters' choices. one empress went republic, one imperial in alliance. i checked the 4th that only just got to Umbara by accident xD she's the other, but rep allying, empress but hasn't started story-first run of flashpoint yet. Sorry.

 

So yeah, I no longer have any idea in guessing what, and how many, affects which branch the dialogue takes. I think it is a lot of things, not one though

Edited September 8, 2017 by Asmodesu

[IoNonSoEVero]

I can confirm that my SW made all the same moves on Iokath, so that's not it. And during the expansions, they didn't kill anybody and Arcann is alive with both. The Peacekeeper who DID shoot at Senya's ship got the nice line.

 

It's starting to sound more and more like it's a bunch of things that effect it.

 

Huh. It is definitely sounding like a lot of different things, not just one specific trigger for the flag. Mine killed Senya/Arcann, Saresh, and Scorpio, as well - although Theron was cool with my killing the latter two in the game.

[Kataret]

And while Theron does have trust issues for sure, once you have earned his trust he seems like the type to be 100% loyal. I might be wrong but his whole obsessive loyalty to Teff'ith even though she always claimed to hate him makes me think he's unlikely to turn once he commits. Although a really dark insane character would certainly push anyone's limit so who knows.

 

New point: Will we see characters like Teff'ith, Marcus Trant, or Gnost-Dural? They're all former associates of Theron. It's very likely Satele will return in some capacity, but it also appears to be a great way to bring in some of these new characters to the game's roster. We spent some time back in the Empire on Dromund Kaas in KOTET. This could be our way of getting some additional insight into the Republic now. I don't think we got nearly enough of the Republic with Malcom on Iokath.

[Kataret]

New Theron Theory.... Theron starts Valkorion's revenge!!

 

Flashback to Valkorion's last words...

"Remember me... when your Alliance burns to ash!"

Flashforward to Theron Shan's betrayal...

"Ever since you defeated Valkorion, everything I've done has been towards one goal...

the total destruction of the Eternal Alliance!"

 

*Gasp!*

I Didn't think much of this idea at first, but this could indicate some foreshadowing... who knows.

[fmsffm]

Well, I'm inclined to take this tweet as a hint that the infitration theory might be right.

[Tannenfels]

Goooood... Gooooood... Fascinating reading. The Force is definitely strong with you, my young apprentice. Edited September 9, 2017 by Tannenfels

[kukumburr]

New point: Will we see characters like Teff'ith, Marcus Trant, or Gnost-Dural? They're all former associates of Theron. It's very likely Satele will return in some capacity, but it also appears to be a great way to bring in some of these new characters to the game's roster. We spent some time back in the Empire on Dromund Kaas in KOTET. This could be our way of getting some additional insight into the Republic now. I don't think we got nearly enough of the Republic with Malcom on Iokath.

 

I don't know if they'll actually do it but I would LOVE to see those characters and learn more about the state of the Republic. I'd kind of like to see Jonas Balkar again too since they're friends and we know they've kept in contact.

 

I'm also curious about what's going to happen with the Empire now that Acina can either be alive or dead. Are they going to get a new leader regardless or will they make your choice matter more? And if so I wonder who would take over for Acina if you chose Republic. Vowrawn maybe?

 

I'd like to see more of Malcom too if you chose Republic, but I guess it's not as big of a deal if he's dead since either way the new Chancellor is still the leader. I hope they actually make that choice mean a lot though. It really felt like there wasn't enough time with him.

[Kataret]

I'm also curious about what's going to happen with the Empire now that Acina can either be alive or dead. Are they going to get a new leader regardless or will they make your choice matter more? And if so I wonder who would take over for Acina if you chose Republic. Vowrawn maybe?

 

New theory....

 

"There remain Sith who do not approve of the alliance I offer. They cling tight to the old ways."

- Empress Acina

 

1. The Sith Empire will become an enemy in the upcoming storyline, regardless of the choice made on Iokath. They will be the center stage enemy while the Order operates in the background.

 

2. How this happens? One way or another, the Empire gets a new leader. If you sided with the Republic, Acina is dead. If you sided with the Empire, there is further dissent in the Sith ranks as they dissatisfied with, as they see it, their Empress "bowing" to the Eternal Alliance (This is the idea of the quote above).

 

3. This was all the Order's plan: to leave the Empire leaderless. One of the Order's members, Darth Jadus, returns to the Empire and manages to seize command. He redirects their strength against the Alliance. If you sided with the Empire on Iokath, Acina will be ousted from the Empire and join the Alliance as a permanent companion.

 

4. The Republic situation. If you sided with them on Iokath, then you have a powerful ally in the fight against the Empire and Order. However, if you sided against the Republic, then your Alliance is facing a war on three fronts. It is one more reason Theron implored you to side with the Republic on Iokath: he knew the Empire would betray you, and thus wanted you to have the Republic as an ally when that happened.

 

5. As the Alliance is hammered by the Empire (and maybe the Republic), the Order uses its extensive knowledge and influence to sabotage the operations of the Eternal Alliance. It's possible they also uncovered information on Iokath about defeating the Eternal Fleet. Keep in mind that at the start of the War for Iokath storyline, there was a mysterious (and partially unexplained) signal that managed to shutdown the entire Fleet temporarily.

 

6. Maybe Theron reveals his infiltration to help the Commander defeat the Order so that their sabotage efforts fail.... Not sure. Also, if you're being gunned at by both Empire and Republic, maybe more opportunities to lose allies or companions.

 

I really wasn't entirely sure where I was going with this, but there's just a bunch of theories linked together. There's still a ton of details that I couldn't include, but this was just a few ideas.

Edited September 9, 2017 by Kataret

[fishpeople]

I Didn't think much of this idea at first, but this could indicate some foreshadowing... who knows.

 

Valkorian is influencing the events still? or did he screw us over by putting Vaylin (and Arcann) in our heads?

[OldVengeance]

If we had Vaylin AND Arcann in our heads, wouldn't we know it by now? They probably wouldn't even be getting along with eachother.

[Keta]

Hmm, then the one character I have similar to yours -

 

Warrior (Dark 1)

Empress (1st choice post-throne was the "send aid" choice)

Empire (urged him not to kill his father)

No Spy

Took all "nice" and romance lines during Umbara

 

She got the "you'd throw me in the brig" line

 

Now I'm starting to think it boils down to alignment, which is a crock.

 

I just realized, I can replay it, can't I? I'll have to do that.

 

It can't be alignment. I have a Sit Sorcress, Light 5, empress, romancing Theron, first act was aid. Got the throw me in the brig comment. Sit Inquisitor, Dark 4, peacekeeper, romancing Theron, first act was aid, She also got the throw me in the brig comment. One force choked (?) him in the train the other did not. *shrug*

[IoNonSoEVero]

Valkorian is influencing the events still? or did he screw us over by putting Vaylin (and Arcann) in our heads?

 

I still think he could have messed with Theron in some critical way when he was in the shuttle, waiting alone on Nathema. He says he can feel the void before they land, we know that Valkorion was able to still communicate with the Commander on the shuttle, and when Lana and the Commander went off to explore the planet, he wouldn't have had anyone to protect him. It's a story point all players would have had regardless of who they killed/sent away, too.

 

There's an entire group of creepy people in robes on Nathema who were able to both drive Vaylin insane and help break her conditioning...perhaps there's our Order.

 

ETA: Found the Into the Void chapter on YouTube and had another look: the people in robes surrounding Vaylin, helping with this ritual, are in long black robes with some sort of large silver belt buckle - very similar to the member of the "order" seen on Theron's holo...

Edited September 9, 2017 by IoNonSoEVero