Slicing post-nerf, please look at the numbers BW

[Pansophist]

That is very true. Oh well, unfortunatly I think this subject has died for me. I've said all I can. I only hope the Developers take what has been said here repeatedly to heart and do something in the coming weeks.

 

The subject has died for most of the people attempting to talk logically The rest just attempt to talk in circles and flame people who chose to take up slicing. This in turn makes it less enjoyable to discuss options, thereby avoiding the issue.

 

As it stands, these threads will eventually slow down and die. BioWare won't have to do anything except re-evaluate the situation at a later time frame. This time frame will most likely be in another month when the majority of players have started to hit 50 and complain about the ridiculous cost of things as simple as equipment repair.

 

The casual players will fall off, as casual players are just that - casual. Why would they stick around for it.

 

It truly does make me sad that the first patch included such a knee-jerk reaction to I'm sure what was considered a PR 'nightmare' at BioWare due to the massive level 10-30s twittering them and posting in these forums about how 'OP' slicing is.

 

I have a habit of putting my money where my mouth is. This is no different. I was excited about this game, it allowed for me and my more casual friends to play together. Ordered the LCE and everything, signed up for a 6month sub, then cancelled. A game floundered with knee-jerk reactions is never good, and another MMO 'abusive relationship' is not well worth it

 

Edit: I am not saying I won't re-sub once they release a statement. The first whiff I get of an explanation I'll be re-subbing that minute

Edited December 29, 2011 by Pansophist

[Donger]

The subject has died for most of the people attempting to talk logically The rest just attempt to talk in circles and flame people who chose to take up slicing. This in turn makes it less enjoyable to discuss options, thereby avoiding the issue.

 

As it stands, these threads will eventually slow down and die. BioWare won't have to do anything except re-evaluate the situation at a later time frame. This time frame will most likely be in another month when the majority of players have started to hit 50 and complain about the ridiculous cost of things as simple as equipment repair.

 

The casual players will fall off, as casual players are just that - casual. Why would they stick around for it.

 

It truly does make me sad that the first patch included such a knee-jerk reaction to I'm sure what was considered a PR 'nightmare' at BioWare due to the massive level 10-30s twittering them and posting in these forums about how 'OP' slicing is.

 

I have a habit of putting my money where my mouth is. This is no different. I was excited about this game, it allowed for me and my more casual friends to play together. Ordered the LCE and everything, signed up for a 6month sub, then cancelled. A game floundered with knee-jerk reactions is never good, and another MMO 'abusive relationship' is not well worth it

 

Edit: I am not saying I won't re-sub once they release a statement. The first whiff I get of an explanation I'll be re-subbing that minute

 

Same here. I canceled yesterday. It would take just a few seconds to layout a small post explaining the path forward, goals of slicing, deal with it chumps we got your moniez, something.

 

Decent game with a good foundation to become epic later on, but the lack of any dev input on the forum and the slamming nerf turns me way off. Why bother to get to 50 with something you've spent a lot of time to get maxed only to have it nerfed hard into being useless. I understand it will happen with new content, its the MMO way. Not, right after a release with no warning and no explanation.

[Pansophist]

Same here. I canceled yesterday. It would take just a few seconds to layout a small post explaining the path forward, goals of slicing, deal with it chumps we got your moniez, something.

 

Decent game with a good foundation to become epic later on, but the lack of any dev input on the forum and the slamming nerf turns me way off. Why bother to get to 50 with something you've spent a lot of time to get maxed only to have it nerfed hard into being useless. I understand it will happen with new content, its the MMO way. Not, right after a release with no warning and no explanation.

 

SWG all over again.

 

It's not the nerf that bothers me as much as the fact that the nerf itself was an overwhelming reaction to a populace that do not understand the situation.

 

Think about it. If they plan on doing this every time a group decides to twitter-bomb their support, do you really want to invest time and money in that? Would anyone? Like I said, it's an abusive relationship

 

Now, it's different if they did it and then communicated with the community.

[Volki]

There's something inherently distasteful about Bioware pandering to a vocal minority, and equally distasteful about that minority arrogantly proclaiming that I should be forced to play the game their way or not at all. I choose not al all.

 

Before, I was able to create alternate characters to play (and have fun doing so since this is a game) and was able to supply them with credits to gear properly and advance their crafting professions and play in a way that was fun to me.

 

No longer.

 

Arrogant and Hitleresque nobodies with little else to do than spend hours mind numbingly on boring, repetitive tasks have proclaimed on the forums that we should all be just like them because it fulfills not only their arrogance and psychological "control issues" but also their need to play in a mind numbing way. And Bioware listened, oddly, and implemented an absurd, rushed, thoughtless and uncalled for "nerf" that now makes Slicing useless.

 

Rather than listen to a dozen or so "control freaks", Bioware should be insuring that the millions who subscribed have fun playing the game. That "is" the "idea" of a "game", is it not?

 

I'll consider coming back when Bioware reverses this "pander to the arrogant" nerf.

 

 

*** Edit

 

The arrogant control freaks were still able to play in a mind numbing way pre-nerf. No one forced them to take Slicing. There was an option for them and for players like myself to take Slicing or not. This option no longer exists. Now, I'm forced to play the game "just like they" envision it should be played. Well, I'm not.

 

This has totally "put me off" to the game. I'm not interested in the storyline anymore, etc. Way to go.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Volki

[Zakkana]

SWG all over again.

 

I'm also reminded of WoW's great hunter castration right before the Burning Crusade. Mages were crying in the forums because Hunters were chewing them up in the battlegrounds because everyone wanted to be a Welfare Warlord. So what happened? Hunters got "rebalanced" for level 70 when level 70 was not even possible.

[Raximillian]

Maybe this will help.

 

In a real (modern) economy, you have: (highly simplified)

 

Raw materials. (self explanatory)

Finished goods. (products ready for the consumer to use)

Man hours. (time spent by individuals to gather materials of produce finished goods)

Currency. (an agreed upon medium that can be exchanged for any of the above.)

 

You buy man hours currency to gather materials.

You buy more man hours to convert those materials into finished goods.

You sell finished goods to consumers.

The consumers buy those finished goods by selling man hours.

 

Growth is limited by any of these factors. Take away man hours less is produced so you can't sell it. Take away currency and the rate of exchange is hampered by haggling and backorders as people wait to accumulate it to purchase. remove materials and your man hours produce nothing to sell.

 

SW:TOR doesn't have a "man hours" really. even time spent by the player and invested by crew missions are another variable that behaves differently than "man hours" would in the real world. It's more like a fiscal quarter that happens to be a different length of time for everyone involved.

 

Materials and finished goods have an easy analog in... materials and finished goods. (unsurprisingly)

 

Credits... Credits serve as both the man hours (as they produce materials, and finished goods, and via slicing could produce more of themselves to function as "man hours.") and the currency, which is what seems to be tripping people up.

 

The slicing nerf is having the same effect on the economy as if someone were to make it illegal to work more than 20 hours a week.

 

No money, no overtime, production is severely hampered, there's an initial glut of unsold goods on the market because no one buys, but that dwindles as less is produced to sell because of production, and less people are willing to buy because they have less money to spend. Even those with large amounts of money are in trouble as their fixed expenditures must still be met, and the finished goods they need are simply not available to buy, leading to rising prices, so you have not deflation but inflation in cost, as overall wealth goes down.

 

Yes, there is an initial glut of supply which makes you think "oh the market will adjust." What happens when you lose money on all the other gathering and crafting skills? Not like before when you lost it via incompetence and overspending, but because there is literally no one there buying your goods and finished products sell for less than the rtaw materials cost to produce?

 

Gold sellers, that's what happens. they realize they can make real money off of a fake economy that is floundering because of a lack of raw currency. Believe it or not, Gold farmers are excellent game economists--it helps them go where the real money is and stay in business.

 

Sound familiar? Check your server right now. That's what's happening.

 

An influx of raw credits is what is needed to motivate the economy, and to keep it going as it matures, and indeed a baseline return (minimum wage!) is what helps to standardize prices and prevent overinflation.

 

You have two choices: Slicing as a minimum wage mechanic that grants an influx of raw credits, or goldsellers who steal accounts, scam their customers and pollute the game with unregulated amounts of money as the influx of raw credits. you're going to have one or the other.

 

And before you start QQing, yeah, slicing was minimum wage. If you lost money gathering and crafting "then you are bad and should feel bad," as the meme goes. Your complaints are equivalent to the guy who mines gold in his back yard and presses it into toilet paper complaining that his car got repossessed while the McDonald's employee can go see a movie after he pays his rent and car payment.

 

You don't (and did not) have less earning potential, you have just far outspent the greater potential you had on things you didn't need.

 

I can see how an injection of cash can help to get the economy moving. I would still prefer to let it ramp up slower, but I agree that such an injection can be effective. It can get the production/farming gears moving, and that is a good thing. And if that is BWs intention, then it is fine, no problem there.

 

What I still do not agree with, it was done through a single trade skill. If they just wanted to inject money to get the economy rolling, they could make lockboxes return at random from ANY mission type. Have slicing mission bring some other item into the market. Consolidating all the credit income into a single profession to indirectly fuel other professions is not a good idea to me. It would eventually need to be changed anyway once the economy gets rolling.

 

So I can agree with the idea of getting the economic gears moving, but just not the way it was done through a single tradeskill.

[Zakkana]

Probably close to 300 pages on this matter... and the only posts on it from BW are signposts. Nice.

[Aximand]

With Treasure hunting, you can oftentimes come out on top after vendoring. To answer your question. Sorry, I had to get one of my guildies to test it a couple times to be sure.

 

It is not near as dramatic as slicing was, but it is still a profit. And this is purely vendoring, let alone selling items on the GTN (which apparently is very difficult to do post-nerf, so I am discounting that for the time being).

 

I know for a fact that I'm not selling anywhere near the amount of items on the GTN as I was before the patch.

[Mostrarskegg]

Say nothing for the fact that the GTN is broken and you can't search or find what you are looking for properly.

 

Nice listening to the whiners BW. If slicing was only available to smugglers, then nerf it. It's available to all. Let everyone roll a toon and take up slicing.

[MajorSanchez]

Simplest fix ever:

 

Put slicing back to normal. Only have one character per server per account able to have it as a crew skill. No goldfarmer abuse. No overuse. The economy still stays the way it is and should be. People can still afford to buy **** from crafters, lv50 repair costs, skill costs, speeder licenses, etc.

Edited December 29, 2011 by MajorSanchez

[Pansophist]

Simplest fix ever:

 

Put slicing back to normal. Only have one character per server per account able to have it as a crew skill. No goldfarmer abuse. No overuse. The economy still stays the way it is and should be. People can still afford to buy **** from crafters, lv50 repair costs, skill costs, speeder licenses, etc.

 

Aw, now you're just making too much sense

 

In all seriousness, that would actually be a surprisingly easy and simple fix. I still say professions should be level capped in addition, though.

[Zakkana]

Simplest fix ever:

 

Put slicing back to normal. Only have one character per server able to have it as a crew skill. No goldfarmer abuse. No overuse. The economy still stays the way it is and should be. People can still afford to buy **** from crafters, lv50 repair costs, skill costs, speeder licenses, etc.

 

Per faction. Unless they open up mailing across factions on the same account.

[MajorSanchez]

Aw, now you're just making too much sense

 

In all seriousness, that would actually be a surprisingly easy and simple fix. I still say professions should be level capped in addition, though.

 

We all spent the exact same amount of time getting our skills up to 400. If you spend the time to level it, you should have the opportunity to use it to its fullest extent.

 

Per faction. Unless they open up mailing across factions on the same account.

Sure, I guess. Although people that play both sides on the same server kinda irk me, but that's a whole 'nother thing.

Edited December 29, 2011 by MajorSanchez

[Knarthak]

Yeah, I mean it kind of feels like a useless skill at this point. I'm thinking about dumping it in favor of something else.

[sotaka]

We all spent the exact same amount of time getting our skills up to 400. If you spend the time to level it, you should have the opportunity to use it to its fullest extent.

 

Doesn't really make much sense. I am actually in the camp of agree with the people who would've preffered a hard cap based off levels (Hell, the missions are already in level brakets!)

 

Even with 1 per character, the only difference would become that it would become a required skill with no input really required. At least by basing it off level, they require you to be playing the system.

 

But then the issue if they allowed 'only one character' would become 'but I Have it on my character X at level Y that I don't want to use! Do I have to delete him and level it AGAIN just to have reliable income?"

 

The best anology to this system is how, IIRC, certain banks where saying they were 'holding up the economy, and if they were to fall, the economy would fail as well.'

 

===NO ONE GROUP/PERSON/ETC SHOULD BE THE SOLE CONTROL OF THE ECONOMY===

 

Ever. Under any circumstances. That is ASKING for failure, on a global scale.

 

Now, I might be remembering it wrong. I only really learned about it because - world events are not my forte, don't read the news enough, and I've been working on it ever since. IIRC, this was on European Banks, but the Government (BioWare) stepped in and fixed the situation.

 

There are still issues, of course, but what world doesn't?

 

And as a closing note: I still pull 50k/hr minimum playing my level 28 Bounty Hunter Slicer. Been doing it for the days since the nerf and I pull in that much consistently. Almost got enough just putting in 1-2 hours a night for my level 40 speeder for both me AND my closest friend. That's 420k I saved up at level 28.

Sure, I guess. Although people that play both sides on the same server kinda irk me, but that's a whole 'nother thing.

[Rawrifficus]

I'll just share my 2 cents in here that I enjoyed slicing simply because it enabled me to do all the crafts on my own and never worry about using the GTN. I really don't understand why everyone thinks forcing people to participate in the GTN with all the power traders is a good idea. Does no one understand that it always, ALWAYS ends up with only a few people completely dominating the items sold?

 

Also why do so many people enjoy paying the ridiculous prices people sell things for on the AH in all of these MMOs. I sure don't which is why I enjoy being self sufficient and slicing allowed me to do that.

 

Farming money is not fun and is something these games need to begin moving away from and slicing was a good start.

 

My suggestion is allow two different forms of currency.

 

PvE money - only usable by characters on your account all things bought with this money are BoP any items created with mats bought with this money are always BoP.

 

This would completely eliminate the need for purchasing gold from gold farmers for mounts/bank slots etc. (which to my knowledge is what the majority of people who purchase gold use it for.)

 

PvP money - can be traded, purchase off the AH etc just the same as it is now for those that enjoy working the AH.

 

Without slicing I really do not see anyone being able to do much besides purchase their skills. Quest credits are not nearly enough to be able to do a craft and..anything else in the game.

[MajorSanchez]

But then the issue if they allowed 'only one character' would become 'but I Have it on my character X at level Y that I don't want to use! Do I have to delete him and level it AGAIN just to have reliable income?"

 

I have slicing on my main. I have no alts. It is (was) the only thing keeping my Sentinel in the green. The only thing keeping me affording new skills, repair costs, new armor, new companion armor, speeder costs, etc.

 

If you've ever played a Sent, you'd know what I'm talking about.

 

And as a closing note: I still pull 50k/hr minimum playing my level 28 Bounty Hunter Slicer. Been doing it for the days since the nerf and I pull in that much consistently. Almost got enough just putting in 1-2 hours a night for my level 40 speeder for both me AND my closest friend. That's 420k I saved up at level 28.

 

Even following the most profitable mission guides I'm making maybe 10k an hour at 400 slicing. I can make more than that running space missions.

[Zakkana]

Even following the most profitable mission guides I'm making maybe 10k an hour at 400 slicing. I can make more than that running space missions.

 

Im only at 3.1k after 70 runs and 11.6 hours of not being able to use my companions.

[foulcault]

see I don't get all this. As a player that looks thru the forums but not as hardcore as many here I think the nerf was good.

 

1) My understanding is slicing is a gathering skill. These are pure profit cause you have to hunt down an item, met the required skill level, and then harvest. Items are harvest points are not the same item everytime but normally the same crew skill.

 

2) Missions for any gathering or mission skill were not meant to profit but to give you items you could resell and to further your skill levels. You didn't make back 100% cause you got to level your skill for part of that loss.

 

 

However maybe slicing should be unnerfed with just the following changes put in place

 

1) Missions no longer provide a skill boost. You get ample money back in exchange for not gaining a level in slicing.

 

2) Gathering points provide nothing but increase level. Nodes will be capped on both ends now allowing high end items to be gatehred by low end people and spots cannot be camped to lift a person from 1 - 400 in one zone. Kinda how crafters can't craft the same item 400 times.

[Cyrosage]

Continued to slice since patch. Just hit 400, only doing the ones that cost about 1400 credits (due to the failure rate putting me in the hole). A 1400 credit mission was returning 1500 credits if I was lucky.

 

Also.. just hit level 30. The price of skills is expensive! I used to buy all kinds of stuff off the GTN. Now I save for skills and repairs and essentials. I went from upper middle class (not rich but could buy mostly what I wanted within reason) to broke and can't afford to level a crafting skill with only one gathering profession cuz I'd have to buy the rest.

 

It was OP originally when you factor in a bunch of alts splicing constantly. There is no reason 30 minutes without my companion should not net me something worth 30 minutes of time though. While questing, I make several thousand selling the grey junk items in 30 minutes, while my companion sits in the splicing mission break room laughing.

[Zakkana]

Also.. just hit level 30. The price of skills is expensive! I used to buy all kinds of stuff off the GTN. Now I save for skills and repairs and essentials. I went from upper middle class (not rich but could buy mostly what I wanted within reason) to broke and can't afford to level a crafting skill with only one gathering profession cuz I'd have to buy the rest.

 

Exactly. My slicer's sole purpose was to support the crafting of my other 3 characters. Now their progression has ground to a halt. My spending has stopped completely because now I have to save up for these god-aweful sinks Bioware put in.

[WakeZero]

I have a habit of putting my money where my mouth is. This is no different. I was excited about this game, it allowed for me and my more casual friends to play together. Ordered the LCE and everything, signed up for a 6month sub, then cancelled. A game floundered with knee-jerk reactions is never good, and another MMO 'abusive relationship' is not well worth it

 

Yep, this is the only way to show a company their errors. Stop giving them money. If Bioware wants to keep touting their 1-2 Million player base after everyone is done with their first month of free play time... they better learn to treat their players better.

 

I just cancelled my subscription too. I don't need to pay to be abused by nerf sticks, I can get abuse for free in other games or real life.

[Zakkana]

Yep, this is the only way to show a company their errors. Stop giving them money. If Bioware wants to keep touting their 1-2 Million player base after everyone is done with their first month of free play time... they better learn to treat their players better.

 

I just cancelled my subscription too. I don't need to pay to be abused by nerf sticks, I can get abuse for free in other games or real life.

 

Yeah. Sad part is I am having more fun playing a DOS game from 1994 right now than I am playing SWTOR.

[Nahela]

2 hour mission that cost 2500, net 2600 credits and a green augment. Seriously?

[Randomness]

Pretty sure if you spent an hour in the field harvesting nodes you'd come out well ahead. I recall the one time I had slicing (back in a beta where it actually gave materials for cybertechs!) I could get 100ish credits per loot point on Dromund Kass. And there were plenty of loot points.