5.4 Changes Speculation

[Bird_of_Thunder]

So what do we think the changes to Fury/Concentration and Carnage/Combat will be? It seems like we're at a good place right now so I don't really know what they would change, but maybe people with more experience at higher level gameplay have an idea of what it'll be.

 

Maybe something to help with resource management?

Edited July 22, 2017 by Bird_of_Thunder

[shyroman]

Carnage is getting nerfed 100%, its damage is really high. Really high burst, really high sustained and really high aoe.

[ottffsse]

yeah they will basically swap places most likely in terms of sustained dps. if devs are sensible they will keep carnage with the highest burst (don't nerf burst numbers/potential) but will nerf overall sustain.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

yeah they will basically swap places most likely in terms of sustained dps. if devs are sensible they will keep carnage with the highest burst (don't nerf burst numbers/potential) but will nerf overall sustain.

 

If Fury gets better dps than Carnage [which is shouldn't because Fury is the true burst spec in reality and Carnage is the psedo burst spec] Carnage will becomes obselete in every way. It will mean the end of Carnage without question.

 

Here's the break down as I see it and others do as well, so to speak from what people have been posting on this subject in various threads [both Carnage and Fury players] - [i cut and pasted this here from another thread]

 

 

Fair enough. I can't say I have a complaint with that

 

But once again, that doesn't apply in PVP. That's why this whole thing is such a shame. The adjustments being made to the classes lack the single most important consideration in determining where a spec should be in the DPS pecking order - Common sense.

 

You have to take everything a spec brings to the table into account, common sense.

 

For example you can say Fury has less burst damage than Carnage and that is true to a point, because there are also times when Fury has better burst damage than Carnage because there are no damage penakties to Fury's Burst at any time, their burst is reliable and you can count on it's damage. One small delay, can make all the difference as to whether Carnage gets it's burst out in time to fit it into the window. The times that it does, yes, the burst is bigger than Fury, but the times it doesn't than the burst is less than Fury, so you have to bare that in mind, there is a balance sort of thing for Carnage, it isn't always going to be able to put out it's burst for it's maximum damage values. Simply put, Fury's burst is frontloaded, they can count on it every single time they use a burst attack, Carnage can't always do that. This is what makes the spec so challanging, attempting to perfectly execute a series of attacks to fit into a 3 second window under circumstances that are almost constantly trying not to let the Carnage Marauder do so.

 

No one is stunning you while your dummy parsing, just like. No one is rooting you, you are never out of range, you are never slowed, you are never being attacked by multiple assailants at the same time, you are never being forced to move due to mechanics and you are never having to try and survive.

 

Again, I'm all for Fury getting a boost, but we have to be fair here, there is a reason it has always been the lower dps spec and that is exactly because it is the burst spec, because it is front loaded, and requires no set up and cannot have it's burst shut down. Its more mobile, its the best melee spec in the game for staying on target because it has two leaps, is not effected by CC like the other two specs are and isn't beholden to a set rotation which is a huge boon. Carnage is not forgiving of mistakes, you mess up even a little, you get delayed even a little, it's a massive DPS loss and it wouldn't be so bad if it was always within your power to avoid interruptions or delays or mechanics, but it isn't. So therefore, there are definitely going to be times when you cannot get your burst out and those delays can't be made up for, because once that window is over, they don't have any burst at all until the window comes back around again.

 

Carnage is the quasi-burst spec and Fury is the Burst spec, and I haven't seen one person yet to say they disagreed with that appraisal, players off both specs agree on that.

 

No matter what though, even if they do the right and acknowledge that in fact and practice the above us true and Fury is the burst spec, Fury should still get a boost. Carnage should not get a boost, but its DPS shouldn't be nerfed because its the Mara burst spec because it isn't. If it was, I would not object, but I cannot in good conscience let the arbitrary declaration that it is the burst spec go unchallenged. It was just as unfair when they did it to Snipers.

 

Regarding Ruthless Aggressor, if they wanted to nerf that some, I'd have no objection to that if people feel it's a bit too strong. Gotta be fair to everyone.

 

But, they're gonna do what they want, the only choice we have in response is whether or not we continue to give them money. That's a choice everyone has to make for themself.

 

Fair is fair, and wrong is wrong, anyway you cut it.

The

 

Edited July 22, 2017 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[MuskyBoy]

I imagine they will change the ferocity window to have the 100% armor pen for the next 3 abilities to stop the clipping (maybe over six secs stop stacking between phases). That should bring down the sustained enough to the desired levels. Edited July 22, 2017 by MuskyBoy

[orangenee]

It's Bioware, they love a good nerf. Also anything that needs fixing but they can't be bothered with will be "working as intended".

 

After many moons of ME 3 MP I know them well.

 

Now I'm new to this game entirely so I likely won't notice but my first toon is a Marauder Carnage guy.............so we'll see what happens.

[Bird_of_Thunder]

If Fury gets better dps than Carnage [which is shouldn't because Fury is the true burst spec in reality and Carnage is the psedo burst spec] Carnage will becomes obselete in every way. It will mean the end of Carnage without question.

 

Here's the break down as I see it and others do as well, so to speak from what people have been posting on this subject in various threads [both Carnage and Fury players] - [i cut and pasted this here from another thread]

 

 

 

 

But once again, that doesn't apply in PVP. That's why this whole thing is such a shame. The adjustments being made to the classes lack the single most important consideration in determining where a spec should be in the DPS pecking order - Common sense.

 

You have to take everything a spec brings to the table into account, common sense.

 

For example you can say Fury has less burst damage than Carnage and that is true to a point, because there are also times when Fury has better burst damage than Carnage because there are no damage penakties to Fury's Burst at any time, their burst is reliable and you can count on it's damage. One small delay, can make all the difference as to whether Carnage gets it's burst out in time to fit it into the window. The times that it does, yes, the burst is bigger than Fury, but the times it doesn't than the burst is less than Fury, so you have to bare that in mind, there is a balance sort of thing for Carnage, it isn't always going to be able to put out it's burst for it's maximum damage values. Simply put, Fury's burst is frontloaded, they can count on it every single time they use a burst attack, Carnage can't always do that. This is what makes the spec so challanging, attempting to perfectly execute a series of attacks to fit into a 3 second window under circumstances that are almost constantly trying not to let the Carnage Marauder do so.

 

No one is stunning you while your dummy parsing, just like. No one is rooting you, you are never out of range, you are never slowed, you are never being attacked by multiple assailants at the same time, you are never being forced to move due to mechanics and you are never having to try and survive.

 

Again, I'm all for Fury getting a boost, but we have to be fair here, there is a reason it has always been the lower dps spec and that is exactly because it is the burst spec, because it is front loaded, and requires no set up and cannot have it's burst shut down. Its more mobile, its the best melee spec in the game for staying on target because it has two leaps, is not effected by CC like the other two specs are and isn't beholden to a set rotation which is a huge boon. Carnage is not forgiving of mistakes, you mess up even a little, you get delayed even a little, it's a massive DPS loss and it wouldn't be so bad if it was always within your power to avoid interruptions or delays or mechanics, but it isn't. So therefore, there are definitely going to be times when you cannot get your burst out and those delays can't be made up for, because once that window is over, they don't have any burst at all until the window comes back around again.

 

Carnage is the quasi-burst spec and Fury is the Burst spec, and I haven't seen one person yet to say they disagreed with that appraisal, players off both specs agree on that.

 

No matter what though, even if they do the right and acknowledge that in fact and practice the above us true and Fury is the burst spec, Fury should still get a boost. Carnage should not get a boost, but its DPS shouldn't be nerfed because its the Mara burst spec because it isn't. If it was, I would not object, but I cannot in good conscience let the arbitrary declaration that it is the burst spec go unchallenged. It was just as unfair when they did it to Snipers.

 

Regarding Ruthless Aggressor, if they wanted to nerf that some, I'd have no objection to that if people feel it's a bit too strong. Gotta be fair to everyone.

 

But, they're gonna do what they want, the only choice we have in response is whether or not we continue to give them money. That's a choice everyone has to make for themself.

 

Fair is fair, and wrong is wrong, anyway you cut it.

The

 

My take is that's the direction BW wants the specs to be heading, which could be a sign of the adjustments we'll be seeing in 5.4. That's just my guess though, after all that same post was talking about the goals (more or less) for PvP in the future.

[Exocor]

I hope for some intelligent changes. Obviously, most PvEers prefer Carnage over Fury. Moreover many of them prefer Fury over Carnage in PvP. A classic damage buff- or nerf to any of them would make one obsolet for both, pve and pvp. Edited July 23, 2017 by Exocor

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

I hope for some intelligent changes. Obviously, most PvEers prefer Carnage over Fury. Moreover many of them prefer Fury over Carnage in PvP. A classic damage buff- or nerf to any of them would make one obsolet for both, pve and pvp.

 

Yeah, that's a good way of looking at the situation. No doubt. Let's be fair to everyone instead of at the expense of another.

 

Well said.

Edited July 23, 2017 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[Equeliber]

Fury is completely useless in PvE. It's nothing more than a spec for farming heroics. I hope they change that. Need to be careful though, it has been performing pretty well in PvP, too many buffs and it will be way too strong.

[Bonzenaattori]

In my opinion, Combat before the Zen whore complex was way more fun!

 

Theres a reason Combat was a top spec before a bucket full of alacrity was dunked over Sentinel's head. THE CLASS HAS GOOD SYNERGY

now its so grossley diluted, it just ruins it for everyone who wants to play this class

Personally, I dont care about Combat anymore.

Until they fix this wayward Zen medley, this class is just constantly held back by singularity mechanics

 

Personally, I'm more interested in Vigilance Guardian spec and Concentration spec.

Though I fear even if they buff those specs, I get the feeling they'll be so dumbfcked it will just remove the fun from playing those specs

Edited July 23, 2017 by Bonzenaattori

[Beyrahl]

Fury is fine

So I don't know what changes could be coming to it.

Carnage however I hope they fix the ****** animation for gore, or do something with precision window.

[Bird_of_Thunder]

In my opinion, Combat before the Zen whore complex was way more fun!

 

Theres a reason Combat was a top spec before a bucket full of alacrity was dunked over Sentinel's head. THE CLASS HAS GOOD SYNERGY

now its so grossley diluted, it just ruins it for everyone who wants to play this class

Personally, I dont care about Combat anymore.

Until they fix this wayward Zen medley, this class is just constantly held back by singularity mechanics

 

Personally, I'm more interested in Vigilance Guardian spec and Concentration spec.

Though I fear even if they buff those specs, I get the feeling they'll be so dumbfcked it will just remove the fun from playing those specs

 

What's the issue with Zen exactly? It's just a base Alacrity increase for 6 attacks which is really helpful during Precision burst windows

[Bird_of_Thunder]

Fury is fine

So I don't know what changes could be coming to it.

Carnage however I hope they fix the ****** animation for gore, or do something with precision window.

 

Fury is fine in PvP but it underperforms severely in PvE, which means it'll likely see a DPS increase at the expense of raw burst. Carnage is just gonna get straight up damage-nerfed but hopefully they give us something to compensate in the form of something that increases burst potential

[FerkWork]

The Devs have stated on multiple occasuons that Carnage is the burst spec while Anni is the sustained and Fury filling the middle ground. Carnage has been overperforming in raids making it the go to spec for pretty much every fight. I can see Carnage being dropped to about 9.8-10k range on the dummy and hopefully a nerf to its ridiculously strong AoE. Most likely Fury will see a buff putting it around 10.1-10.2k on the dummy. This will maybe make Fury an advantageous option on some fights.

[BraverDre]

The Devs have stated on multiple occasuons that Carnage is the burst spec while Anni is the sustained and Fury filling the middle ground. Carnage has been overperforming in raids making it the go to spec for pretty much every fight. I can see Carnage being dropped to about 9.8-10k range on the dummy and hopefully a nerf to its ridiculously strong AoE. Most likely Fury will see a buff putting it around 10.1-10.2k on the dummy. This will maybe make Fury an advantageous option on some fights.

 

I think carnage target dps should be lower than 10k since its dps has to be on the same level with madness sorcs and +2.5% from range burst like arcenal. So 9,5k would be a good target dps for carnage

Edited July 24, 2017 by BraverDre

[FerkWork]

I think carnage target dps should be lower than 10k since its dps has to be on the same level with madness sorcs and +2.5% from range burst like arcenal. So 9,5k would be a good target dps for carnage

 

It would sit at the same level as IO and Engi at 9.8-10k. Putting it at 9.5 would be below Virulence, Lightning and MM each in 2.5 or 5% less category. Does Madness need a buff to reach their target sure but unbalancing the another spec doesn't do that.

[teclado]

Others have said it: Carnage sustained is getting nerfed, Fury sustained is getting buffed. There's little mystery here. They told us that Carnage is the burst spec, Fury is the quasi-burst spec. As such, Fury should have slightly better sustained. Currently, Carnage has better sustained. So that imbalance is getting fixed.

 

I'd be pretty stoked to see Fury as a legitimate choice in operations. It's been out of the discussion for...well, not sure it has ever been a legit option.

 

We're probably going to see tons of Fury Maras in PvP now. Not quite the return of Smash, but a definite candidate for new FotM once Merc DCDs get nerfed (assuming they will). Otherwise it's still going to be Merc overlords.

Edited July 24, 2017 by teclado

[BraverDre]

It would sit at the same level as IO and Engi at 9.8-10k. Putting it at 9.5 would be below Virulence, Lightning and MM each in 2.5 or 5% less category. Does Madness need a buff to reach their target sure but unbalancing the another spec doesn't do that.

 

I totally agree with u.

[Samoth_Nomad]

What frustrates me is that while Combat has good sustained on a dummy, it is usually not the case on op bosses that tend to be quite unfriendly to melee. I really just wish they'd leave it alone, or nerf AoE, and buff Conc AoE to make that the go to AoE spec. That way we'd go back to the old Watchman=sustained, Combat=burst, concentration= AoE

[BraverDre]

Carnage should get a 700dps nerf. Its dps outperforms any class in NiM. Edited July 26, 2017 by BraverDre

[Lotsanerv]

What frustrates me is that while Combat has good sustained on a dummy, it is usually not the case on op bosses that tend to be quite unfriendly to melee. I really just wish they'd leave it alone, or nerf AoE, and buff Conc AoE to make that the go to AoE spec. That way we'd go back to the old Watchman=sustained, Combat=burst, concentration= AoE

 

I hear you, but top parsing dps spots in boss fights for this patch are mostly combat/carnage. Go have a look at the stats and top parsers for each boss fight. If they're looking at dummy parsing only, it's going to be a mess with a lot of class specs, not just carnage/combat. Either way, it's looking like Fury will be the new flavor for those who don't like keeping up with dots. Carnage is the most challenging and exciting to play, and it only rewards well-tuned players with really high parses, so it'll be a shame to see it relegated to the #3 spot. It's the way it goes, I guess.

[Hoppinswtor]

Carnage should get a 700dps nerf. Its dps outperforms any class in NiM.

 

Carnage needs a 700 dps nerf, Fury needs a 300 dps buff, and Anni needs a slight dps nerf (50-100). Anni should still be the highest parsing spec in the game in 5.4 due to the nature of marauders (reasonably challenging, purely dps melee class).

 

As an aside, let's not forget about those operatives. Cocealment and lethality need to be nerfed by 300 and 500 dps respectively. Deception needs some kind of nerf as well; a good crit parse for deception should be 10k, not 10.5k.

Edited July 30, 2017 by Hoppinswtor

[Hombad]

I Hope that the (very likely) nerf to Carnage comes in the form of a nerf to Ataru Form proc damage, or Massacre damage, so as not to ruin the 'feel' of the spec (fast, demanding, high skill requirement etc.).

 

I'll be extremely disappointed if we see nerfs to Gore/DB, or even worse, a removal/rebalancing of 'clipping.'

 

I think Fury as it is designed currently is really problematic for distinguishing the three Marauder specs into 3 tiers of 'Burst' vs 'sustained.' I think some fundamental redesign of it (independent of Rage) is required more than any buffs or nerfs.

[Threjyan]

I Hope that the (very likely) nerf to Carnage comes in the form of a nerf to Ataru Form proc damage, or Massacre damage, so as not to ruin the 'feel' of the spec (fast, demanding, high skill requirement etc.).

 

I'll be extremely disappointed if we see nerfs to Gore/DB, or even worse, a removal/rebalancing of 'clipping.'

 

I think Fury as it is designed currently is really problematic for distinguishing the three Marauder specs into 3 tiers of 'Burst' vs 'sustained.' I think some fundamental redesign of it (independent of Rage) is required more than any buffs or nerfs.

 

they will proly do like they did with other classes: nerf the dmg values - as about the clipping, since twin saber and dipatch have time travels it will prolly be more dificult to "fix it"