Operative/ Scoundrel DPS nerf

[BraverDre]

I look forward to see both specs to get nerfed in 5.4.Its DPS is way higher than target dps. Merc and sorc dpsers do around 9.5k and operatives do above 11k. Please BIOWARE balance melee dps specs as soon as possible. The gap is huge comparing to rDPS. Thank you. Edited July 12, 2017 by BraverDre

[verfallen]

I look forward to see both specs to get nerfed in 5.4.Its DPS is way higher than target dps. Merc and sorc dpsers do around 9.5k and operatives do above 11k. Please BIOWARE balance melee dps specs as soon as possible. The gap is huge comparing to rDPS. Thank you.

 

they've always stated they were slating the biggest issues 1st and balancing the rest in a patch, but most likely leth's dps is going to be brough down a bit,

 

Conc needs to be adjusted carefully, since while its currently a pretty decent spec in pvp, its one step off the cliff if not done right.

 

You can probably expect leth to be brough down to roughly 10-10,1k dps and conc to 9,6-9.7kish.

 

But its clear their "target" dps which is represented by ranged sustained and burst melee is around 9.6k.

 

so expect big nerfs to deception , carnage and Leth, moderate nerf to annihilation and concealment in term of sustained dps. How they adjust the later will be delicate tough.

 

AP, veng and fury/rage are roughly on target as it is I'd guess.

[sumquy]

I look forward to see both specs to get nerfed in 5.4.Its DPS is way higher than target dps. Merc and sorc dpsers do around 9.5k and operatives do above 11k. Please BIOWARE balance melee dps specs as soon as possible. The gap is huge comparing to rDPS. Thank you.

 

nothing from you but non-stop *********** and moaning and crying about how bad sorcs are, and sorcs need a huge buff, and it's unfair to sorcs. now you have the gall to come on here and push for operatives to get nerfed because, for the first time since launch, they have a small moment in the sun? you're looking forward to it, huh? you are a huge hateful *** hole... but in this specific case you are not completely wrong. the problem is that dps is too high across the board. they have started by nerfing the ranged, but before it is done, i suspect we will see nerfs to some of the top performing melee dps too.

Edited July 12, 2017 by sumquy

[Rion_Starkiller]

Right? This is the first time in this game that Lethality/ Ruffian has truly been decent. Conc/Scrapper is finally a threat and not just a troll spec.

[BraverDre]

they've always stated they were slating the biggest issues 1st and balancing the rest in a patch, but most likely leth's dps is going to be brough down a bit,

 

Conc needs to be adjusted carefully, since while its currently a pretty decent spec in pvp, its one step off the cliff if not done right.

 

You can probably expect leth to be brough down to roughly 10-10,1k dps and conc to 9,6-9.7kish.

 

But its clear their "target" dps which is represented by ranged sustained and burst melee is around 9.6k.

 

so expect big nerfs to deception , carnage and Leth, moderate nerf to annihilation and concealment in term of sustained dps. How they adjust the later will be delicate tough.

 

AP, veng and fury/rage are roughly on target as it is I'd guess.

 

I totally agree with u.

[BraverDre]

Right? This is the first time in this game that Lethality/ Ruffian has truly been decent. Conc/Scrapper is finally a threat and not just a troll spec.

 

it's not devent. Its OverPowered. Look at parsley... operatives NEED A HUGE NERF

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

 

so expect big nerfs to deception , carnage and Leth, moderate nerf to annihilation and concealment in term of sustained dps. How they adjust the later will be delicate tough.

 

AP, veng and fury/rage are roughly on target as it is I'd guess.

 

If Deception and Carnage are in the "on target" bracket already, why should they be nerfed?

 

I say leave Operatives alone for the moment. Their theoretical DPS seldom applies and in PVP they have to use GCDS for self heals and rolls and CC often which when doing so causes DPS to be forgone at those times. When you see Operative high on the damage in PVP scoreboards it's usually from dots and even that isn't common place.

Edited July 13, 2017 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[mrwayn]

If Deception and Carnage are in the "on target" bracket already, why should they be nerfed?

 

I say leave Operatives alone for the moment. Their theoretical DPS seldom applies and in PVP they have to use GCDS for self heals and rolls and CC often which when doing so causes DPS to be forgone at those times. When you see Operative high on the damage in PVP scoreboards it's usually from dots and even that isn't common place.

Carnage and Deception are clearly not "on target". They should be doing roughly the same dps as ranged sustained (so balance/madness for example) yet they do way more damage than that. Biowares "target dps" seems to be slightly below 10k (maybe 9.7k or so) judging to what they brought madness (should be on target), pyro, hatred (should be slightly above target). So carnage, deception and even concealment are clearly over their target. Expecting nerfs is reasonable.

 

Ps: Not saying I'm agreeing with BW's approach, but if they want to stay true to their statements, they will have to go in this direction.

[rylanadionysis]

hahahahahahahaa

[Threjyan]

I look forward to see both specs to get nerfed in 5.4.Its DPS is way higher than target dps. Merc and sorc dpsers do around 9.5k and operatives do above 11k. Please BIOWARE balance melee dps specs as soon as possible. The gap is huge comparing to rDPS. Thank you.

 

do u think BW got it wrong and they actually wanted to bring iomerc and madness sorc to ~10500? where operative is where it should be?

[StoneClaw_]

OP is obviously just bait but, the question of operative nerf is a good one.

 

If DPS on lethality/ruffian is to be nerfed, it should probably only affect single target abilities, since their aoe is already pretty dodgy.

 

Energy management on lethality/ruffian is a tricky subject since they never have to use adrenaline probe/cool head (and maybe they should), although it's questionable whether this should be changed, since energy management doesn't make a great deal of sense on a sustained DPS class.

[BraverDre]

OP is obviously just bait but, the question of operative nerf is a good one.

 

If DPS on lethality/ruffian is to be nerfed, it should probably only affect single target abilities, since their aoe is already pretty dodgy.

 

Energy management on lethality/ruffian is a tricky subject since they never have to use adrenaline probe/cool head (and maybe they should), although it's questionable whether this should be changed, since energy management doesn't make a great deal of sense on a sustained DPS class.

 

I agree with you. Bioware should nerf the dps and tweak the energy management.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Carnage and Deception are clearly not "on target". They should be doing roughly the same dps as ranged sustained (so balance/madness for example) yet they do way more damage than that. Biowares "target dps" seems to be slightly below 10k (maybe 9.7k or so) judging to what they brought madness (should be on target), pyro, hatred (should be slightly above target). So carnage, deception and even concealment are clearly over their target. Expecting nerfs is reasonable.

 

Ps: Not saying I'm agreeing with BW's approach, but if they want to stay true to their statements, they will have to go in this direction.

Melee Burst/Ranged Sustained Damage Dealers (at the target DPS)

 

Advanced Prototype Powertech / Tactics Vanguard

Carnage Marauder / Combat Sentinel

Concealment Operative / Scrapper Scoundrel

Deception Assassin / Infiltration Shadow

Engineering Sniper / Saboteur Gunslinger

Innovative Ordnance Mercenary / Assault Specialist Commando

Madness Sorcerer / Balance Sage

Rage Juggernaut / Focus Guardian

 

Not every spec has attacks that do the same damage as every other spec in a category. So these variances are related to different the DPS targets to some degree.

 

Not every spec should do the same damage inside or outside a cateogory. You have to look at the big picture because all the different abilites a spec has effects the DPS. A spec that has self heals shouldn't do as much damage than a spec with little to no self heals. The more self heals a spec has the less DPS they should do. If you have heals and I dont and we do the same damage, you've just created an inbalance and lessens the desirability of the spec with the less self heals.

 

DPS balance should be conducted on a spec by spec basis, taking into consideration the above mentioned self heals, and mobility, CC kit, DCDs, defensive abilities, group utility, escapes, what the spec represents in terms of role and basis, the ability to off heal or off tank, role options,ranged, difficulty of play, the skill needed to perform the spec optimally, perma-stealth.ect. After that is done a DPS level appropriate to these considerations should than be assigned.

 

You have specs that are not in the correct category which balancing is being based upon [ Ishare your view on the way they are going about this]. There is no way that I can see of achieving DPS balances using the formula they gave in their approach strategy. No ones gonna be happy when the 'class balance' is completed, we're all gonna get ripped apart to varying degrees.

Edited July 13, 2017 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[mrwayn]

Melee Burst/Ranged Sustained Damage Dealers (at the target DPS)

 

Advanced Prototype Powertech / Tactics Vanguard

Carnage Marauder / Combat Sentinel

Concealment Operative / Scrapper Scoundrel

Deception Assassin / Infiltration Shadow

Engineering Sniper / Saboteur Gunslinger

Innovative Ordnance Mercenary / Assault Specialist Commando

Madness Sorcerer / Balance Sage

Rage Juggernaut / Focus Guardian

 

Exactly what I'm saying... All the classes that you listed should do the same dps according to BW. Yet the gap between the lowest of them and the highest is huge...

"At the target dps" doesn't mean they are fine now, it means they should be doing the "target dps" BW claims to have. From what we can tell from the buff/nerfs of 5.3, the "target dps" is around 9.6-9.8k. Which means all the classes you mentioned should be doing that amount of dps.

Edited July 13, 2017 by mrwayn

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Exactly what I'm saying... All the classes that you listed should do the same dps according to BW. Yet the gap between the lowest of them and the highest is huge...

"At the target dps" doesn't mean they are fine now, it means they should be doing the "target dps" BW claims to have. From what we can tell from the buff/nerfs of 5.3, the "target dps" is around 9.6-9.8k. Which means all the classes you mentioned should be doing that amount of dps.

 

 

I do not feel any cateogory should have every one in it doing the same amount of damage because of the aforementioned considerations of a specs abilities that have an effect on DPS/Survival. If theyre gonna do the same amount of damage than they should also have the same amount of survival and heals. If you have more healing than I do, you should do less damage than I do. That's balance on both sides of the scale.

 

If everyone is getting a DPS nerf than yes, I agree these specs should be included, but if not all specs are being nerfed than it would be inappropriate to nerf them.

 

This is all because of the rDPS nerf, not because those specs are overperforming. They were consided the most balanced specs in the game until the nerfs started. No one was complaining about the DPS of the OP rdps specs.

 

 

You nerf the specs that are overperorming not that one's that aren't and you bring the DPS of the OP specs to a similar level of those not overperofming.. If you do both you haven't changed a thing because the differences are relative and the gap between them stays the same.

[omaan]

I look forward to see both specs to get nerfed in 5.4.Its DPS is way higher than target dps. Merc and sorc dpsers do around 9.5k and operatives do above 11k. Please BIOWARE balance melee dps specs as soon as possible. The gap is huge comparing to rDPS. Thank you.

 

Concealment spec has low dps actually, your writing wrong. Lethality may be opped but i haven't seen many playing it good lol. Bioware ignore this guy

[Equeliber]

A spec that has self heals shouldn't do as much damage than a spec with little to no self heals. The more self heals a spec has the less DPS they should do. If you have heals and I dont and we do the same damage, you've just created an inbalance and lessens the desirability of the spec with the less self heals.

 

 

That is such a load of ********, Grim. When a DPS is taken into an ops, he is there for doing damage. Not healing.

 

According to your logic, Madness sorcs are perfectly fine and viable for all Nim ops? They can't pass most of heavy dps checks but, yay, they heal themselves, so it's fine!

 

Selfheals are JUST A PART OF THEIR DCDs. That's it. In no way that should impact their dps output.

 

And if we talk about PvP. Again, specs like Hatred should have lower dps cause have 1-1.5 HPS of selfhealing? Yeah, right. Hatred dies like Pyro PT. Can't even 1v1 anyone. Self heals matter so much... Totally.

[Rion_Starkiller]

it's not devent. Its OverPowered. Look at parsley... operatives NEED A HUGE NERF

 

Only 1 utility makes it appear to be OP. It's the one that grants you a free UH / TA with Trick Move / Holotraverse every 35s. TM/HT is not on the GCD, so you can use it every 35s as part of your rotation to grant a free UH /TA, and thus an extra Brutal Shots / Cull.

 

Your opener can give you tons of Brutal Shots / Culls at the start of combat. (in scoundrel terms bc i can't remember all the operative terms) PBS from Stealth (+1 UH) > Blaster Whip (+1 UH) > VS > SB > BS > BS > BW > BS > TM+BS > Pugnacity+BS > PBS > BW > BS > BS.

 

But your dots will fall off before you can complete this rotation. One of these days, I will get around to trying an all crit-power build.

Edited July 13, 2017 by Rion_Starkiller

[sumquy]

Not every spec has attacks that do the same damage as every other spec in a category. So these variances are related to different the DPS targets to some degree.

 

Not every spec should do the same damage inside or outside a cateogory. You have to look at the big picture because all the different abilites a spec has effects the DPS. A spec that has self heals shouldn't do as much damage than a spec with little to no self heals. The more self heals a spec has the less DPS they should do. If you have heals and I dont and we do the same damage, you've just created an inbalance and lessens the desirability of the spec with the less self heals.

 

DPS balance should be conducted on a spec by spec basis, taking into consideration the above mentioned self heals, and mobility, CC kit, DCDs, defensive abilities, group utility, escapes, what the spec represents in terms of role and basis, the ability to off heal or off tank, role options,ranged, difficulty of play, the skill needed to perform the spec optimally, perma-stealth.ect. After that is done a DPS level appropriate to these considerations should than be assigned.

 

You have specs that are not in the correct category which balancing is being based upon [ Ishare your view on the way they are going about this]. There is no way that I can see of achieving DPS balances using the formula they gave in their approach strategy. No ones gonna be happy when the 'class balance' is completed, we're all gonna get ripped apart to varying degrees.

 

yes. i wrote a long post about exactly this in the pvp forum, but it did not get much interest. essentially, trying to balance the classes around the dps/heals output without considering the effectiveness of different dcds will make a mess of pvp.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

That is such a load of ********, Grim. When a DPS is taken into an ops, he is there for doing damage. Not healing.

 

According to your logic, Madness sorcs are perfectly fine and viable for all Nim ops? They can't pass most of heavy dps checks but, yay, they heal themselves, so it's fine!

 

Selfheals are JUST A PART OF THEIR DCDs. That's it. In no way that should impact their dps output.

 

And if we talk about PvP. Again, specs like Hatred should have lower dps cause have 1-1.5 HPS of selfhealing? Yeah, right. Hatred dies like Pyro PT. Can't even 1v1 anyone. Self heals matter so much... Totally.

 

To be fair, yeah, it's not as much of issue in PVE, because you are always going to have a healer with you. I should have made a distinction between PVE and PVP. My comments were regarding PVP mostly. Sorry I wasn't clear on that.

 

I don't think Sorcs are fine. In fact while I do believe DPS is 'healing' too much on their own, I have stated previously that I think DPS sorcs should be an exception and they should have the best self-heals of all the DPS specs. Sorcs need it more.23wsx But at the same time I don't feel everyone should have the same DPS because there are other things that matter, even in PVE [dirty rez, DCDs [i.e.merc/sniper] off heals can help a tank stay standing a few seconds more, range, role switch, etc.]. But even still, every spec in the game should be able to meet any DPS/HPS checks that any content requires as a minimum.

 

PVE and PVP both matter, and this is just another example of the inability to balance the classes in both PVE and PVP all with the same stroke. What you do to one effects the other.

 

I do believe that the more heals a spec has the less dps they should be able to do, but, at the same time,I very much see Sorcs as an exception. But you can't compare a sorc's dps to a Operatives DPS its night and day.

 

An argument can be made however along the same lines of your quote "Grim. When a DPS is taken into an ops, he is there for doing damage. Not healing." That a healer is there to heal, not DPS, does that mean a healer should never DPS if the group is not in dire need of heals for a moment here and there? Doesn't that added DPS, limited as it may be still have an effect on an outcome potentially?

 

If the heal comes from a DCD, it's not a DPS loss, but if it's a spammable self heal that does cost you DPS and it should. You have to take everything into account. Thats why mercs and snipers DCDs are so out of wack. A merc can stand in stupid a hell of a lot more than a DPS sorc can all while reflecting damage back at the boss while taking no damage whatsoever and it not effect his DPS.

 

But in PVE, nobody cares if survivability is through the roof, it helps the group, PVP is another matter though.

 

And for the record, I'm not saying Operatives should be nerfed. I don't think they should be but I do think there are other classes more deserving of higher DPS.

Edited July 13, 2017 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[BraverDre]

cmon guys look at parsley. Operatives shouldn't be doing 11k on 2.5 dummy. Sorc in madness and merc arsenal do around 9.2 - 9.6k

 

NERF NERF mDPS.

Edited July 13, 2017 by BraverDre

[TheMadProphet]

I look forward to see both specs to get nerfed in 5.4.Its DPS is way higher than target dps. Merc and sorc dpsers do around 9.5k and operatives do above 11k. Please BIOWARE balance melee dps specs as soon as possible. The gap is huge comparing to rDPS. Thank you.

 

Your salty tears feed me you bad.

[Aetideus]

According to their reasoning, Lethality is the top candidate for DPS buff. Hatred being in the same group got one.

[BraverDre]

Your salty tears feed me you bad.

 

Get ready to reroll if u play an operative. They started balancing classes and they need to finish it by nerfing mDPS that overperforming. Hahah lol I am not crying I am just leaving my feedback. Feel free to leave ur feedback after they nerf classes in 5.4

Edited July 14, 2017 by BraverDre

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Get ready to reroll if u play an operative. They started balancing classes and they need to finish it by nerfing mDPS that overperforming. Hahah lol I am not crying I am just leaving my feedback. Feel free to leave ur feedback after they nerf classes in 5.4

 

They're going to rip every class in the game apart. Don't worry, no one will be happy before to long.