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Quarterly Producer Letter for Q2 2024 ×

I have a bad feeling about the new meta...

Zolxtren

By Zolxtren
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Zolxtren

Zolxtren

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Posted (edited)
Can't be worse than it's been with Mercs and Snipers.

 

Ranged superiority is more acceptable? Or is this where you say that Mercs and Snipers aren't OP as hell?

 

They are OP as hell

 

BUT right now there are

 

Mercs Snipers maras Asassins and skanks tanks Most of the players

 

but if they nerf all the ranged to Sorc level DMG and def CD wise...

 

then the only thing you will see are Maras Assassins Ops more maras even more maras some extra assassin and more maras with a pint of Ops and Skank tank....

 

its funny how skank Tank is allways Viable not Broken OP or UP but Viable most of the times... tough...

 

im just wonder where this gonna end up... especialy when they start balancing the Utilities after the dmg stuff are done..

Edited by Zolxtren
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orillah

orillah

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Posted
Man...Just relax, nothing really are gonna change with 5.3 :/ And who knows how long it will take for another "balance" changes. Finally class imbalance and gearing problems are not even the worst thing in this expansion, i never had so much bugs and glithes, especially dsync piss me off alot =(
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mmmbuddah

mmmbuddah

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Can't be worse than it's been with Mercs and Snipers.

 

Ranged superiority is more acceptable? Or is this where you say that Mercs and Snipers aren't OP as hell?

 

It can be much worse. As seen before the ranged classes got their super buffs. If you ever played a commando befor 4,0, or a sniper before 4,0, they were just punching bags for melee classes for years on end .

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themachinemann

themachinemann

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it'll depend on changes to utilities. hopefully they can get that balance right.

 

ranged classes will still be playable, the question is whether the average player could be bothered. ranged classes have a major benefit: RANGE. however (if the past 5 years have taught us anything), many don't use that properly, and so end up facetanking and demand more dcd's to accommodate their facetanking, and after the buff skilled players jump to that class and become so much more difficult to kill.

 

 

So, as a brief history of ranged classes:

1) noobs wanted to play sorc more. devs buffed sorc. elite players became gods at sorc. everyone played sorc. non-sorcs complained about god-mode sorcs. other classes were buffed so sorc dps specs were no longer special.

2) merc had been mediocre in pvp for a while, despite owning the top parsing spec at one time. devs buffed merc. elite players became gods at merc. skank tanks countered mercs quite effectively. noobs asked for more defense. devs buff again. merc becomes god mode.

3) sniper was always a high powered class, elite players took great pride in the high skill cap and consistency in g-r. devs tried to make it more appealing to average players by adding more defense, but went all salt bae and accidentally added a bit too much.

 

now, for some reason, facetanking is so much easier than positioning and kiting (go figure). if utilities are changed, fotm reroll mercs won't be able to adapt and probably switch to melee.

 

they haven't announced any utility changes yet, so we'll have to wait and see

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Thaladan

Thaladan

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Posted (edited)

the only real change will be the number of sorcheal, drastically reduced.

 

mercs will continue at least until BW touch utilities or not, because many merc are surely full geared and the survivability will stay op.

Edited by Thaladan
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WayOfTheWarriorx

WayOfTheWarriorx

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Awww poor ranged, yes, they've been so wrongly persecuted. A more melee centric meta is so inherently intolerable, the total and utterly ranged dominance since 5.0 dropped was so moderate and unassuming and effected no one in any noticable manner.

 

To think of all these Melee that will be running around, who weren't buffed in the slightest, the lack of decent [or any] self heals, the way they will never be in attack range wherein ranged will always be able to attack back, all the ccs and slows that ranged will be suffering, how all the melee firing squads will line up to lay waste to all those poor ranged totally unaffected by plasma probe, all the poor ranged that won't be gettiing controlled by insane CC packages that are so able to nullify ranged, all the FOTM Melee classes that don't exist, all the H2Fs and strong self heals that melee don't have, how unfair of an advantage melee will have over ranged because ranged have 7.5 times the attack range than melee do, how all those slows will stop ranged from getting in attack range of melee, how trinity breaking Assassins, Marauders, and PTs are. All those AOE slows melee can spam 100% of the time that also do damage and prevent any channeling of objectives. The way melee cannot be interupted when they roll into an enemy held square with a cancel debuff in OPG!! All those melee that can't be jumped to while they sit on top of pipes 5 miles in the sky laying waste to everything under them with their lightsaber throws with a max range of 10'. All those extra lives that melee have. All those GOD/Tank like DCDs melee have. How unsuitable DCDs with relect/heal/invulnerability will be against all the overbuffed melee that will 'rule' in 5.3. All those DCDs melee have that benefit their team members as well as themselves, in like manner. All those very short 3 minute cooldowns on many of their DCDs.

 

All those off heals and off-healing they'll be doing. All that survivability that melee classes are so known for. To say nothing about all those buffs Juggs, Marauders, and PTs received post 4.0 like Mercs and Snipers did.

 

#Buff Mercs and Snipers

#Nerf PTs and Juggs.

 

They should leave things as they are, it's so much better than 5.3 will be. Class balance is perfect right now.

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Foambreaker

Foambreaker

Posted
Posted
They are OP as hell

 

BUT right now there are

 

Mercs Snipers maras Asassins and skanks tanks Most of the players

 

but if they nerf all the ranged to Sorc level DMG and def CD wise...

 

then the only thing you will see are Maras Assassins Ops more maras even more maras some extra assassin and more maras with a pint of Ops and Skank tank....

 

its funny how skank Tank is allways Viable not Broken OP or UP but Viable most of the times... tough...

 

im just wonder where this gonna end up... especialy when they start balancing the Utilities after the dmg stuff are done..

 

Your complaining about sins being OP?

 

You must get owned by everyone :p

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Elusive_Thing

Elusive_Thing

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Posted
Your complaining about sins being OP?

 

You must get owned by everyone :p

Especially Deception is just fantastically middle-of-the-pack. At least to me the spec feels balanced (extremely balanced considering how this game usually handles balance issues).

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Glocko

Glocko

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Posted (edited)

The only reason you see skank tanks is because the other Jugg specs are not viable at all. 75% of those skank tanks would rather be playing a straight Jugg DPS spec. The nerfing of OP sorc single target heals will make the skank tank less viable. So now all those Juggs will go play their sins and Marauders

 

And I guess your definition of viable is confined to regs based on garbage AOE dmg and the protection given in 8 man smash fests on voidstar and odessa

Edited by Glocko
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mike_carton

mike_carton

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When I read the original post, my first thought was "There's a statement of the blindingly obvious!" But it looks like it isn't that obvious to all. The argument is not that the ranged DPS classes should be the Meta. The argument is that the development team's predispositions shouldn't dictate a Meta.

 

Just look at what the target citizenship categories for various DPS Disciplines are, according to the developers. The underlining is mine.

Damage Groupings for Damage Dealing Disciplines

Melee Sustained Damage Dealers (up to +5% of target DPS)

•Annihilation Marauder / Watchman Sentinel

•Hatred Assassin / Serenity Shadow

•Lethality Operative / Ruffian Scoundrel

•Pyrotech Powertech / Plasmatech Vanguard

•Vengeance Juggernaut / Vigilance Guardian

Melee Quasi-Burst Damage Dealer (up to +2.5% of target DPS)

•Fury Marauder / Concentration Sentinel

Melee Burst/Ranged Sustained Damage Dealers (at the target DPS)

•Advanced Prototype Powertech / Tactics Vanguard

•Carnage Marauder / Combat Sentinel

•Concealment Operative / Scrapper Scoundrel

•Deception Assassin / Infiltration Shadow

•Engineering Sniper / Saboteur Gunslinger

•Innovative Ordnance Mercenary / Assault Specialist Commando

•Madness Sorcerer / Balance Sage

•Rage Juggernaut / Focus Guardian

Ranged Quasi-Sustained Damage Dealer (down to -2.5% of target DPS)

•Virulence Sniper / Dirty Fighting Gunslinger

Ranged Burst Damage Dealers (down to -5% of target DPS)

•Arsenal Mercenary / Gunnery Command

•Lightning Sorcerer / Telekinetics Sage

•Marksmanship Sniper / Sharpshooter Gunslinger

Anyone who's being playing "Sorcerer-Lightning || Sage-Telekinetics," "Sniper-Marksman || Gunslinger-Sharpshooter," or "Powertech-Pyrotech || Vanguard-Plasmatech" these past few months knows what they are; they're citizenship classes. You're a fifth-class citizen if you enter PvP as a Telekinetics Sage. They're going to enshrine it in the game's constitution, so to speak; like the the three-fifths clause was.

 

Looking at that list, it'd be difficult to argue that the new, post-5.3 meta will comprise Sages and Sharpshooters. As myself and others have argued elsewhere, the ideal would be a much smaller DPS spread between the Disciplines making the choice one of class story and fighting style. Specifically targeted countervailing Combat Proficiencies or differentiated skills (between PvE and PvP) can then offset the disadvantages of the lowest DPS Disciplines (No, "Raid Utility" or "AoE DPS" don't cut it.)

 

The currently proposed system puts the Developer Thumb on the scale and pre-determines a specific Meta Game. Guild Wars did a lot of things right years ago, including making almost all classes reasonably viable in endgame PvP and PvE.

Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. Douglas Adams.
Edited by mike_carton
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mike_carton

mike_carton

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ranged classes have a major benefit: RANGE.

 

That is not true and the current statistics prove that that is not true. If it were to be true,

 

 

  • Theorycrafter numbers for Melee would be high as they currently are
     
     
  • Actual DPS numbers from StarParse would show ranged and Melee DPS numbers to be close. This is not true. DPS numbers gathered by StarParse from actual Ops encounters show Melee DPS numbers to be greater than Ranged DPS numbers.

 

What the above shows is that the supposed advantage ranged Disciplines have is not materializing in Ops boss encounters; already, today in 5.2, the melee classes have better DPS than ranged classes.

Edited by mike_carton
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WayOfTheWarriorx

WayOfTheWarriorx

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Posted
That is not true and the current statistics prove that that is not true. If it were to be true,

 

 

  • Theorycrafter numbers for Melee would be high as they currently are
     
     
  • Actual DPS numbers from StarParse would show ranged and Melee DPS numbers to be close. This is not true. DPS numbers gathered by StarParse from actual Ops encounters show Melee DPS numbers to be greater than Ranged DPS numbers.

 

What the above shows is that the supposed advantage ranged Disciplines have is not materializing in Ops boss encounters; already, today in 5.2, the melee classes have better DPS than ranges classes.

 

Using Parsley as a means of gauging class balance is not at all accurate. The best parses you find on parsley are the best of the best. They have inordinate amounts of critical hits, extremely low miss chances, and lucky rng across the board from damage rolls to relic procs at idea times and in many cases a good amount of fluff damage from adds.

 

BW uses the dummy parse to guage DPS, right or wrong, realistic or not, that is what they use. If you check on parsley on dummy parses you will find that in most cases ranged parse better than melee.

 

People don't upload bad parses on parsley. They upload the best of the lot. Using that as any indication of where a class stands in the pecking order of DPS or where your average everyday players should be at is misleading and unrealistic.

 

Of course skill plays it's part, but all parses good or bad are influenced heavily on rng. Crit chances, miss chances, too hit rolls, damage rolls, relic procs, raid buffs, even how well the healers are healing the DPS allowing them to stand in stupid for longer times than they reasonably should. All the skill in the world is not going to help a player who's landed on 29% crit hits and had a 12.5% miss chance. RNG = luck, or bad luck.

 

 

There are two valid uses for parsley. Looking at what other players are using in their rotations to get better ideas for their own play and for bragging rights.

 

If you go by Parsley, Combat Sentinels perform worse than Carnage marauders, despite that they are literally the same exact class and spec in every single way save for the way the animations look.

 

If you go by parsley, Lighting Sorcs do not need a DPS buff they are parsing in the 10.3k range and that goes for Madness sorcs as well to a lesser extent.

 

If you go by Parsley Lethality Operatives need a DPS nerf because they are parsing in the 11k range which exceeds their suggested DPS range.

 

There are operation fights that have Ranged with the highest DPS parses as well.

 

In game, if you do any PVP at all, to say that ranged has anything other than great advantage would be not only untruthful but self-serving.

 

Furthermore, that melee are parsing higher on some fights than ranged is, given the amount of parses that are on parsley being an extremely small amount of you consider how many people actually play the spec across all servers is proof positive of nothing. It could just as easily be that the players with the highest DPS parse on a fight are a better player than the ranged player. Likely or not, it's possible. If that were not the case there wouldn't be certain Operation boss fights that have a ranged spec with the highest DPS on parsley.

 

People are confusing the issue with uptime with DPS. No one is saying that melee does bad damage, they are saying the suffer from greater unavoidable downtime than ranged do and that is a simply fact. Even if the melee are doing better DPS they are still suffering from more downtime than ranged are.

 

You don't make class balance decisions based on the top 5% performers of a class/spec. That's like making boxing rules in a sparing gym based on what Mike Tyson was able to do.

 

Most players will not perform to the skill level the top players in the game can. You average player, even your average skilled player is effected by such things and just because you have two exceptional people perhaps performing exceedingly well doesn't mean that has anything innately to do with the class persay, they are simply extremely skilled individuals.

 

Ask yourself this. Why can't every single Lethality Operative parse at 11k? If we check on parsey, there are two Lethality Operatives that hit 11k. Two. In the whole entire game, two.

 

Is that the expectation you have for every lethality OP? Why are 99% of Lethality Ops unable to hit 11k? Should raid leaders not except into thier raid team Lethality OPs who can't hit 11k because they are 'bad' at the spec?

 

In closing, Parsley is not used by BW or has any connection to it at all. Parsley is a 3rd party website that has no baring on what BW does with the game.

 

There have been exploit after exploit after exploit in this game over the years, People have found way to gain unfair advantages. Even now their is one that exists in the Lightning spec.

 

People help each other all the time to get better parses, healers let DPS stand in stupid just so the DPSer can crank up the DPS, is this how most players in live raids are going to be able to operate? Should we judge the classes abilities based on such outside assistance from other players helping a friend maximize a parse?

 

Should we asssume that none of the parses are influenced by other classes raid buffs that a singular character may not have on his own? Doesn't bloodthirst, and alacrity raid buffs effect classes that aren't Marauders or Mercs?

 

That is precisely why the dummy parse is used as a standard, because it is the only way to insure on even playing field with a player not being able to be effected by the assistance or mechanization of any other player.

 

If Joe sorc gets a 10k parse because he had bloodthirst put on him but Jane sorc didn't have the benefit of the bloodthirst, can you really say that Joe Sorc is the better sorc because he got the higher parse?

 

Dummy parses are the only way you can judge a class solely based on what it can do all on it's own. If a Marauder is getting healed through a fight, those heals are being recycled into DPS.

 

Everytime I PVP, I thank the healers that looked out for me, and if I get a pat on the shoulder cuz I managed to do some good DPS I always say that the healer should share in that because there is no way I could have put out the DPS I did had it not been for their heals.

 

There are some excellent, exceptionally skilled players out there that are worthy of great praise for their individual skill. Some use parsley, some don't. They cannot be used as a standard for the class, because most people will never reach their level of skill. Turning a blind eye to RNG's part in the best parses you see would account for design flaws in class balances.

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mike_carton

mike_carton

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Posted (edited)
Using Parsley as a means of gauging class balance is not at all accurate

 

I'm not using Parsely. I explicitly mentioned in my post Starparse and its collection of actual Ops data in real-time.

 

That invalidates all of your post.

Edited by mike_carton
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