A preferred player’s perspective on Population decline

[Tsillah]

Point remains had there never been a form of F2P this game would no longer be here. It struggles with population at it is with F2P (thus I'm all for allowing F2P into more warzones and operations and finding a different means to get them paying - mostly so I get more value from my sub with more people to play against/with) so without it ... there just wouldn't be enough population to sustain it.

 

Well that was my point. Population became a real issue and F2P was needed at that point. I just wish that what led up to that never happened so that F2P wouldn't have been necessary.

 

They really did make a lot of poor decisions and I think they thought that they could get away with starting up kinda basic like WoW did at first and then add to it as time went along. They should've put a product out that actually rivalled WoW and use that as a starting platform to build on.

 

Pretty much every other MMO since WoW has made this mistake of not starting at what was already out there but starting below part with a couple of unique selling points to pull people in. But as soon as people hit the limitations compared to other MMOs they start getting annoyed and leave, because as far as QoL and general amenities and options in the game, these MMOs all start below par and so none of them could even begin to compete with WoW.

 

Now they are looking for a different style with things like Destiny, Warframe and Anthem etc. They see the mix of ARPG/Shooter with MMO elements as the new thing. Not sure how well it will work and BioWare have a chance here with Anthem but will it?

 

Very little is known so far but it's been confirmed that in the city you're in 1st person and outside in 3rd. We've seen footage and outside you'll be in full Javelin armour with helmet. My suspicion is that the character creation process will be very limited and that you'll barely be able to see your own face because of the mix of 1st person perspective and helmets in 3rd. If I'm right, then people like myself who like the character creator process, will be disappointed. It will therefore not compete with games where you can create your own character.

 

Things like that will turn people off on a game. Put a few surprises like that in there and you'll lose a big part of the demographic and then the MMO side of things will be in trouble also.

 

They just need to start games at a higher level of quality. Mass Effect: Andromeda proved yet again that releasing the game before it's ready enough is a big loss of sales. After a few patches with lots of fixes the game is pretty good, but who cares now? People have generally moved on.

 

So what happened with SWTOR is something they haven't really learned from as a company. It's just hard to see them do this game after game.

[DarthSpuds]

Players might not be asking for the "entire game" for free, but we see many players asking for the incentives to subscribe be removed or lessened and that those parts of the game in which they participate be made available for FREE.

 

There are NO incentives to Sub.

That's not how the EA/Bioware model works.

 

The EA/Bioware model work by disincentivising people from not subbing.

 

Look at what is locked away when you are F2P - extra Skill Bars (for crying out loud Skill bars are basic essentials of MMORPGs, they should NEVER be a paid for extra), the ability to color sync your gear, the ability to hide the head slot.

 

Heck even Command Ranks should be Free to all players - gearing up at end-game is a basic function of MMORPGs.

 

There are ALL basic function that SHOULD be Free to EVERY SINGLE player, F2P, Preferred or VIP.

 

And then there should be ACTUAL incentives for Subbing.

2x CXP Gains.

Modified Loot Table on Command Crates to avoid the 90% Trash we all disintegrate.

Subscribers SHOULD get anything they buy from the Cartel Marker automatically "unlocked" on all of their existing toons.

 

Make the Subscription be something more than just the basic game that every other game company includes for free.

 

All The Best

[Ratajack]

There are NO incentives to Sub.

That's not how the EA/Bioware model works.

 

The EA/Bioware model work by disincentivising people from not subbing.

 

Look at what is locked away when you are F2P - extra Skill Bars (for crying out loud Skill bars are basic essentials of MMORPGs, they should NEVER be a paid for extra), the ability to color sync your gear, the ability to hide the head slot.

 

Heck even Command Ranks should be Free to all players - gearing up at end-game is a basic function of MMORPGs.

 

There are ALL basic function that SHOULD be Free to EVERY SINGLE player, F2P, Preferred or VIP.

 

And then there should be ACTUAL incentives for Subbing.

2x CXP Gains.

Modified Loot Table on Command Crates to avoid the 90% Trash we all disintegrate.

Subscribers SHOULD get anything they buy from the Cartel Marker automatically "unlocked" on all of their existing toons.

 

Make the Subscription be something more than just the basic game that every other game company includes for free.

 

All The Best

 

I guess that all boils down to perspective. In reality, not being rewarded is not the same as being punished, though.

 

If Johnny wants to play the victim and claim that he is being "punished" for not subscribing and playing for FREE, nothing is going to stop him from doing so.

 

Billy subscribes because he feels he is being rewarded for doing so.

 

 

Hypothetically, BW gives away the game for FREE to the freeloaders and adds additional incentives to subscribe.

 

Billy is happy with the rewards he receives now for subscribing, so additional incentives would be more likely to be accepted as additional rewards.

 

Johnny, who plays the victim and claims he is being "punished" will likely only see those additional incentives as "punishments" if he doesn't receive those additional rewards.

 

 

Choosing to play the victim and claiming to be "punished" by not receiving rewards does not make it so.

 

 

Johnny doesn't do his homework or study for tests, while his brother Billy does his homework and studies for tests. Johnny fails the class and Billy gets an "A". Their mother takes Billy to the movies for getting an "A", but Johnny does not get to go. Is Johnny being punished or is Billy being rewarded?

[ladyalchemist]

Why do you pay now? You seemed to say "I don't do any of the stuff that actually costs money to do but I pay anyway" but no doubt I'm missing something?

 

I pay because I believe in supporting the game I play in this manner - and that what I do actually DOES cost money to develop and maintain. It also provides an escape from some annoyances and doesn't limit my alts that I wish to play. The point I made is not that I wanted to play for free - it is that if the changes that the poster suggested were made, then it would give me more incentive NOT to subscribe. The idea being that his intention, and others' here, were to provide incentive to move TO the subscriber model... not away from it. My point is that his suggestions - and some others here - would provide incentive to do the opposite.

 

There is more to the game than just endgame. Or it might be better to say that there is more than one or two types of endgame in an MMO.

 

EDIT: Edited for clarification.

Edited July 18, 2017 by ladyalchemist

[ladyalchemist]

Really? You have absolutely no idea why this model has proliferated in online MMOs?

 

There are a number of very real reasons, the most notable being:

 

1) the proliferation of mobile gaming has been on a free-2-play+microtransactions business model. And more and more people are not only indulging in mobile gaming, they have a preference for the business model. So.. if you want to retain players, and or pull in new players... you adjust to the changing needs and wants of the potential player base.

 

2) there are many more MMOs on the market these days and more and more players "play the field" and hence can and will have multiple MMOs installed and playing them at some regular interval. Can you not understand how this sort of nomadic play style would prefer a business model that allows them to selectively defray costs to access said MMOs?

 

There is a common theme with these flexible access models. They are designed to give a player a range of choice in how they access game content, and what game content they pay microtransactions to access. This gives players a lot more flexibility, and the player simply needs to assess for themselves what facet of the access model they choose to select.

 

Either you missed my point or I wasn't clear enough... or maybe a little of both. For that I apologize. I did mention I understood the business aspects of it - what fails me completely is gamers willing to accept the decline in the quality of gaming it always brings with it. I was gaming long before the F2P model and can attest to the higher quality of gaming that existed then from experience. Maybe it is the current culture we live in with an entitled, self-centered "I want it all now with little or no cost to myself" point of view. This is what fuels the cash shop, after all: "Look at me and what I got! ...and I got it only on the 5th crate!" Thing is, they are paying much more to get it than if it existed to be obtained within the game and they had to play the game to get it... you know, how it used to be. They are shooting themselves in the foot - and doing it happily.

 

So ya, I can understand a business making this decision... I don't understand gamers putting up with it. But I am a gamer from the Dark Ages, too (shamless DAOC pun). I remember occasions where you were fighting a tough mob to reach a node (or something similar) and folks running by would help you knock it down before going on their merry way. I remember folks actually stopping and letting you hit the node because you had arrived first, then waiting for the respawn for themselves. And I remember doing that often for others.

 

And I still do it - I did it several times over the last two days on the Gree event... the surprise in the other players was palpable. You could see it in their play without them even stating a word. Out of those 5 or 6 times only one stayed to help me with my try at it. I didn't need it, but noticed and appreciated it. It saved a little time and generated good will -

it felt good. So ya, gamers like this still exist... we are just a minority now it seems. That is sad, don't you think?

Edited July 18, 2017 by ladyalchemist

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Well that was my point. Population became a real issue and F2P was needed at that point. I just wish that what led up to that never happened so that F2P wouldn't have been necessary.

 

Possibly or a comprehensive, well thought out F2P model at the start.

 

They really did make a lot of poor decisions and I think they thought that they could get away with starting up kinda basic like WoW did at first and then add to it as time went along. They should've put a product out that actually rivalled WoW and use that as a starting platform to build on.

 

Pretty much every other MMO since WoW has made this mistake of not starting at what was already out there but starting below part with a couple of unique selling points to pull people in. But as soon as people hit the limitations compared to other MMOs they start getting annoyed and leave, because as far as QoL and general amenities and options in the game, these MMOs all start below par and so none of them could even begin to compete with WoW.

 

True enough in an MMO sense but I wonder if they hedged their bets on "but we have 8 class stories, all these sole players we will attract surely want to do all 8 of them right?" when in reality most people probably only did one in their initial play through, found little else to do and moved on.

 

It was (and still is depending on how much gaming time you get) a big commitment to run through the class story in regards to time so getting to the end and deciding to do it all again instead of trying other things out there was imo a choice that people made to try the other things out there.

They might have stuck around if there were fresh things to do on their "savior/destroyer of the galaxy" character once they got to the end but there really wasn't.

 

This is why I don't buy BWA's line of not expecting so many people to blow through 100's of hours content so fast, they miscalculated in thinking people wanted to. In my own case I've never run back to back class stories and still have some to do. By the time I finished my first I wanted to try the MMO content and got a lot of time out of that (as it was post 2.0 at this stage) and by the time I finished my next I'd done all the MMO content and didn't want to repeat any of the linear expansions so I went and played something else.

 

Over time you start to miss the gameplay and are happy for another run through on a new class but back to back ... imo that's a niche portion of the player base.

 

 

Now they are looking for a different style with things like Destiny, Warframe and Anthem etc. They see the mix of ARPG/Shooter with MMO elements as the new thing. Not sure how well it will work and BioWare have a chance here with Anthem but will it?

 

If they do it well it will. Destiny was successful with a pitiful story, horrible match making and fairly fun gameplay reminiscent of halo. If Anthem can get those things right it can really slide into this market well.

 

Very little is known so far but it's been confirmed that in the city you're in 1st person and outside in 3rd. We've seen footage and outside you'll be in full Javelin armour with helmet. My suspicion is that the character creation process will be very limited and that you'll barely be able to see your own face because of the mix of 1st person perspective and helmets in 3rd. If I'm right, then people like myself who like the character creator process, will be disappointed. It will therefore not compete with games where you can create your own character.

 

They've never really endeavored to target the true at heart MMO player in these games though. More the CoD type player with carrot of "epicness" and more customization. To date I don't think any game has nailed the MMO/Shooter hybrid at all or even come close really. Destiny was close but they really feel down in the basics. Destiny 2 sounds like an improvement but after Destiny 1 (I love story and ease of getting into raids when there is story attached - 1 lacked both) I'll certainly be waiting for a discounted price (or awesome player reviews this time).

 

 

They just need to start games at a higher level of quality. Mass Effect: Andromeda proved yet again that releasing the game before it's ready enough is a big loss of sales. After a few patches with lots of fixes the game is pretty good, but who cares now? People have generally moved on.

 

I LOVED that Andromeda had a sales drop over expectations. Too often **** is getting released in unfinished states but people buy it anyway then ***** and moan about it. I never bought this for this reason, I'll pick it up one day for $5-10 when it's also patched but I refuse to support the gaming practice of half finished products anymore.

 

It was great to see more people finally start to stick to their morals and avoid buying the product for the reasons they would criticize it (or return it etc.) - if we never do this things will never change. If people buy it anyway then a game can get all the criticism in the world but if it makes the company good money your encourage them to rinse and repeat.

Battlefront was a prime example of this and it exceeded sales expectations (though I admittedly had fun with it and got my monies worth I see where people were coming from to a degree).

Bet ya BF2 sells well too just from hype, star wars and marketing.

 

So what happened with SWTOR is something they haven't really learned from as a company. It's just hard to see them do this game after game.

 

Well to be fair this game had A LOT of content put out with it, it just possibly wasn't the right content. Better idea - 2 or 4 class stories (so at least half), tons of end game MMO content and add class stories from there. Would that have worked better? Who knows, I'm guessing it might have though.

Andromeda was an example of an unfinished game, SWToR was pretty good. Lots of bugs yes but for a game of the scope it had a lot of content which meant a lot of bugs. Andromeda was just shameful.

Before that ... no problem with BW games personally, I loved all the DA games, ME games and keep going backward I believe I've played all their games and enjoyed them thoroughly and felt quality was there.

I'll no doubt play Andromeda when it's cheap enough and enjoy that too - certainly get my money worth.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

I pay because I believe in supporting the game I play in this manner. It also provides an escape from some annoyances and doesn't limit my alts that I wish to play. The point I made is not that I was to play for free - it is that if the changes that the poster suggested were made, then it would give me more incentive NOT to subscribe. The idea being that his intention, and others' here, were to provide incentive to move TO the subscriber model... not away from it. My point is that his suggestions - and some others here - would provide incentive to do the opposite.

 

There is more to the game than just endgame.

 

I agree there needs to be incentives to subscribe. I also think they are wrong right now. The incentives as it stands don't even seemingly incentive you yourself to sub that much, you do so because you want to support the game and that's awesome.

However too many people have felt jaded from this game and the direction it's taken over the years so a lot of that good faith subscribing is out the window for most.

 

I personally only ever sub lately to try out new content and get access to my credits. For me personally the restrictions on operations and warzones make me not want to sub as I know I'll have stuff all people to play with.

And that's the thing - by limiting who I can play with in an MMO they are effectively devaluing my sub as what I want to do outside of story relies on having people to play with.

 

I feel there are better ways to do things that give everyone unlimited access to raids/warzones. Already they limited GC to sub only (which is bloody pointless since non subs can't do that content that GC benefits anyway) so maybe something in that regard? For example subs get 250 bolster in warzones and non subs get lowest level of bolster meaning they need to actually have to earn gear to be competitive (and no, you don't cut them off from earning gear i.e. GC - that's just stupid), same for operations - perhaps subs get bolster for all types of ops (optional).

 

I would have slow leveling put back in for class stories for non subs too, a big carrot imo was exp boosting your way through the story. All they've done now is give away the best part of the game and people can happilyl eave after wards (or 1 time sub for all expansions).

 

This game as I see it makes some really silly decisions around how it markets itself and looks to turn a profit, things could be done so much better.

[jpscjpsc]

Well that was my point. Population became a real issue and F2P was needed at that point. I just wish that what led up to that never happened so that F2P wouldn't have been necessary.

 

They really did make a lot of poor decisions and I think they thought that they could get away with starting up kinda basic like WoW did at first and then add to it as time went along. They should've put a product out that actually rivalled WoW and use that as a starting platform to build on.

 

Pretty much every other MMO since WoW has made this mistake of not starting at what was already out there but starting below part with a couple of unique selling points to pull people in. But as soon as people hit the limitations compared to other MMOs they start getting annoyed and leave, because as far as QoL and general amenities and options in the game, these MMOs all start below par and so none of them could even begin to compete with WoW.

 

Now they are looking for a different style with things like Destiny, Warframe and Anthem etc. They see the mix of ARPG/Shooter with MMO elements as the new thing. Not sure how well it will work and BioWare have a chance here with Anthem but will it?

 

Very little is known so far but it's been confirmed that in the city you're in 1st person and outside in 3rd. We've seen footage and outside you'll be in full Javelin armour with helmet. My suspicion is that the character creation process will be very limited and that you'll barely be able to see your own face because of the mix of 1st person perspective and helmets in 3rd. If I'm right, then people like myself who like the character creator process, will be disappointed. It will therefore not compete with games where you can create your own character.

 

Things like that will turn people off on a game. Put a few surprises like that in there and you'll lose a big part of the demographic and then the MMO side of things will be in trouble also.

 

They just need to start games at a higher level of quality. Mass Effect: Andromeda proved yet again that releasing the game before it's ready enough is a big loss of sales. After a few patches with lots of fixes the game is pretty good, but who cares now? People have generally moved on.

 

So what happened with SWTOR is something they haven't really learned from as a company. It's just hard to see them do this game after game.

 

What people seem to forget is that even WoW wasn't WoW at first release. What I mean by that is it wasn't this massive theme park of max level rides like it is today. It took much much longer to level and the game was more about getting to max level than being at max level. Pretty much all MMOs start out like this.

 

The trouble with SWTOR at release was so little to do at max level while it was too quick to get there. Had they slowed down progress or spent more time on end game FPs/Ops over the class stories then it would have been a bigger success. With success comes money and they'd have had the cash to then expand their max level theme park.

[ladyalchemist]

The Jawa came later actually. I missed that one cause I unsubbed for a couple of months before F2P came in to try out GW2 (which was a big disappointment.

 

But let me share this video with you

It shows you a player showing off the server selection. Do mind this was in the early access still, so before the official live date when even more players started and he is only showing the NA servers.

 

Look at it and compare it to what's left today...feel free to cry.

 

 

Edit: Another interesting link: http://swtorhumanrelations.com/2011/12/12/swtor-server-list/ Please note that when people say there used to be around 200 servers, this is not just an exaggeration but there really were that many.

 

Take a look at the party jawa description. It was awarded to players who were subbed when F2P was launched. I actually looked at it when I rolled a new toon this time around and wondered why I kept getting saddled with this crappy thing. And they sad that the players voted for this reward. I never believed it. You only saw them pulled out a few days after they were rewarded and then raely again.

 

I started playing the game within the first two months of launch. I remember the days of many servers, server ques, and multiple instances on the fleet. Of many times having to coordinate your party into the same instance before doing what you were going to do. It was one of the first things I noticed coming back to game... only one instance on the fleet and seeing single digit numbers there in the wee hours.

 

I havent contended your observations of population decline, but I didn't expect to see those old numbers upon a return to a mature game. I also think the game could use a population boost... just not a boost consisting of a bunch of entitled leechers. If they wish to play, they should subscribe. Give newbies a trial. I like that suggestion someone made about a trial of the beginner planet plus the next and level to 20. After that, put up your sub or hit the road. I can't believe the crap here of folks thinking that they should only pay for the "endgame content" and then want to give away some of that. Completely boggles the mind.

 

EDIT: sry for sp errors. posted from my phone. Edited quickly for spelling and grammer, so I lrobably didn't get them all. Screen too small for the eyes.

Edited July 18, 2017 by ladyalchemist

[MeNaCe-NZ]

What people seem to forget is that even WoW wasn't WoW at first release. What I mean by that is it wasn't this massive theme park of max level rides like it is today. It took much much longer to level and the game was more about getting to max level than being at max level. Pretty much all MMOs start out like this.

 

The trouble with SWTOR at release was so little to do at max level while it was too quick to get there. Had they slowed down progress or spent more time on end game FPs/Ops over the class stories then it would have been a bigger success. With success comes money and they'd have had the cash to then expand their max level theme park.

 

WoW might not have been WoW at release but WoW didn't have WoW to compete against at release (and the rest too).

 

I mean it was the first MMO after all right?

 

For it's time it was quite lacking in any sort of major competition to the scale and size that it was and it just grew from there without anything in the way of competition. By the time similar competition did arrive well it already had such a major lead.

[Marmeladix]

pls allow me to rephrase >

 

Nethrazhur, you shared with us your perspective of a preferred player on population decline across all Swtor servers. We thank you for sharing. This is the polite thing to do.

 

But we do not care. Your perspective means nothing for us. We would prefer to never know the perspective of any preferred player. Is not only that you do not matter, but anything you may say makes no difference to us. For us in fact you are a nuisance, along with all pref and f2p that do not step into sub within a reasonable period of time, which we would prefer to be under 3 months. We prefer you restrain yourself from clogging this site we pay to keep, with your futile, pointless and void considerations regarding our work, our business, our decisions, our money and our ownership. It is only your pref and f2p guilt that our servers are stuffed mils of tera of data generating lag, of abandoned accounts that we pay for to preserve, for the slim chance that maybe 1 in 1000 will return someday to sub for at least one month. We did carry you on our backs for too long now, no more free milk, enough is enough. You can either pay the fee to earn the dignity of being a Swtor sub, or you can crawl back into your hole to do whatever you prefer and can afford to do. We have always been more than fair and we expect you to pay fair or to get square.

 

Have a NIce day sir!

 

= is it correct formulated BW ?

[Dilemmas]

What people seem to forget is that even WoW wasn't WoW at first release. What I mean by that is it wasn't this massive theme park of max level rides like it is today. It took much much longer to level and the game was more about getting to max level than being at max level. Pretty much all MMOs start out like this.

 

The trouble with SWTOR at release was so little to do at max level while it was too quick to get there. Had they slowed down progress or spent more time on end game FPs/Ops over the class stories then it would have been a bigger success. With success comes money and they'd have had the cash to then expand their max level theme park.

 

I think that while WoW may not have been what it is today, what was there in vanilla was good enough that a massive community of people still have the strong desire to play vanilla WoW on private servers, and there's a well-known demand for Blizzard to introduce legacy servers to satiate this in some legitimate way. I don't see this ever being the case for SWtOR because what SWtOR had to offer in vanilla was nowhere near as compelling, and could never gain a lasting following.

[Jedi_riches]

Look at what is locked away when you are F2P - extra Skill Bars (for crying out loud Skill bars are basic essentials of MMORPGs, they should NEVER be a paid for extra), the ability to color sync your gear, the ability to hide the head slot.

 

Why? none of this is essential they are basically the 'frills' of the original game you don't use every ability you have so just take off what is not used.

 

Heck even Command Ranks should be Free to all players - gearing up at end-game is a basic function of MMORPGs.

 

There are ALL basic function that SHOULD be Free to EVERY SINGLE player, F2P, Preferred or VIP.

 

Again why? only subs have access to end game content so what exactly are they gearing up for?

[DarthSpuds]

Again why? only subs have access to end game content so what exactly are they gearing up for?

 

Well d'uh. That's my point.

 

Content should be available to ALL players.

 

A sub should offer benefits over and above "basic content".

 

All The Best

[Jedi_riches]

Well d'uh. That's my point.

 

Content should be available to ALL players.

 

A sub should offer benefits over and above "basic content".

 

All The Best

 

Honestly I feel F2P and Preferred get a hell of a lot more than they deserve anyway F2P and Preferred are exactly where they should be. I don't think there is much Bioware could offer me on top of what I get as a Sub NOW so you make the Sub the new F2P level there would be ZERO need for me to sub and I don't think I would be alone here, there maybe a population increase doing it this way but that means nothing to Bioware if the income levels go down.

Edited July 18, 2017 by Jedi_riches

[ladyalchemist]

I agree there needs to be incentives to subscribe. I also think they are wrong right now. The incentives as it stands don't even seemingly incentive you yourself to sub that much, you do so because you want to support the game and that's awesome.

However too many people have felt jaded from this game and the direction it's taken over the years so a lot of that good faith subscribing is out the window for most.

 

I personally only ever sub lately to try out new content and get access to my credits. For me personally the restrictions on operations and warzones make me not want to sub as I know I'll have stuff all people to play with.

And that's the thing - by limiting who I can play with in an MMO they are effectively devaluing my sub as what I want to do outside of story relies on having people to play with.

 

I feel there are better ways to do things that give everyone unlimited access to raids/warzones. Already they limited GC to sub only (which is bloody pointless since non subs can't do that content that GC benefits anyway) so maybe something in that regard? For example subs get 250 bolster in warzones and non subs get lowest level of bolster meaning they need to actually have to earn gear to be competitive (and no, you don't cut them off from earning gear i.e. GC - that's just stupid), same for operations - perhaps subs get bolster for all types of ops (optional).

 

I would have slow leveling put back in for class stories for non subs too, a big carrot imo was exp boosting your way through the story. All they've done now is give away the best part of the game and people can happilyl eave after wards (or 1 time sub for all expansions).

 

This game as I see it makes some really silly decisions around how it markets itself and looks to turn a profit, things could be done so much better.

 

I like what you have said in a couple of your posts. Your responses are very thought out as well as thought provoking. I agree that they - and other MMO developers - have not captured the heart of the true MMO player. But the MMO player is as varied as there are flavors of ice cream. The significant portion that SWTOR left out were the farmers. These are the folks who log in everyday to tend their plot of land or other industry - and then participate in a few FPs, Heroics, or ops... maybe even some pvp. Will they ever be the top raiders/pvpers? Of course not... but they provide the bodies that some posters here are referring to as "content". This is a major way to find a steady population... ones that aren't entitled leeches. How hard would it be to make space on some of these planets to do those kinds of activities? Water farming (or something that biochem needs) on Tatooine, for example. Other industries could provide other items that crafters/endgamers need. This is something that they could still do.

 

The other thing that I think they really fell down on was housing. I've lost count of how many folks have asked me to come look at their spread... Its all over the forum about how people like to decorate and then to display their hard work... So they provided housing that is isolated in separate instas instead of making space for communities where people can walk through as well as socialize in - think of Christmas time when many just get into the car and go for a drive to look at the lights. Yeah, they provided a way to publicly list your place - but how many times have you looked at more than the top one or two on the listing? If you make your MMO so that people can find community, then they will come and stay - and they will happily spend their $15 bucks a month doing it. DAOC did it right and that was back in the early 2000s. Whole guilds were able to locate close together near their guild house. I spent many hours just riding my horse through and looking at the creativity and identifying possibilities for my place.

 

F2P is really a lie when it comes right down to it. There is very little "Free" in F2P. That's why the cash shop is so integral in the F2P model. It separates the leeches, along with everyone else, from their money. "Free-to-Pay" is a very descriptive term that I heard many times. It feels alot like a bait and switch - "Come play our game for free" and when you get there the company has their hand out every time you turn around. This is why I don't understand players putting up with it - but as long as people spend their money in this way, a company will deliver this kind of model to capture that revenue. And people blindly accept this as a normal part of their gaming experience.

 

I don't buy it. And I don't buy the "Let's give them more for free so they come play our game. We only spend money to make new content and new flashy things to put in the cash shop. So that's all we should charge anyone for anyway." $15 bucks a month is not alot to put together to enjoy hours of enjoyment each month. I don't feel even a twinge of heartache for those who won't subscribe to the online game(s) they wish to play.

 

I agree with your point about slow leveling - but also return the challenge to playing the lower levels as well. But not just for newbies... I think the challenge should be there for everyone. When I make a new class it is extremely difficult to really learn the whole class in the current structure. Its in those low levels that one really learns their class inside and out. I say don't dumb down the game into easy mode. Working through the challenges of the lower levels is what contributes to a better player at the higher levels. Making a game easy mode is not a way to retain players. Taking away the challenge reduces the fun factor.

[Dilemmas]

Personally, I would have been happy if SWtOR went with the ''buy to play'' model, had paid expansions or DLC, free access to all content that had been paid for, a cosmetic cash shop and optional subscription for fast-track benefits + a trickle of premium currency and minor QoL stuff like ESO's craft bag. Edited July 18, 2017 by Dilemmas

[ladyalchemist]

There are NO incentives to Sub.

That's not how the EA/Bioware model works.

 

The EA/Bioware model work by disincentivising people from not subbing.

 

Look at what is locked away when you are F2P - extra Skill Bars (for crying out loud Skill bars are basic essentials of MMORPGs, they should NEVER be a paid for extra), the ability to color sync your gear, the ability to hide the head slot.

 

Heck even Command Ranks should be Free to all players - gearing up at end-game is a basic function of MMORPGs.

 

There are ALL basic function that SHOULD be Free to EVERY SINGLE player, F2P, Preferred or VIP.

 

And then there should be ACTUAL incentives for Subbing.

2x CXP Gains.

Modified Loot Table on Command Crates to avoid the 90% Trash we all disintegrate.

Subscribers SHOULD get anything they buy from the Cartel Marker automatically "unlocked" on all of their existing toons.

 

Make the Subscription be something more than just the basic game that every other game company includes for free.

 

All The Best

 

This is the problem with perspective. People like me - and there are many - believe that "the basic game" is what we subscribe to play. What you want for free is exactly what the company should be charging people a subscription for. But I detest the F2P model. I think there should be MORE restrictions on the F2P crowd, not less. I'm talking about a level cap of about 20 or so. Restriction to maybe the first two planets, but certainly nothing past the first chapter. The limitation to amounts of toons and gear are already there unless you pay - but then you become preferred. Restriction to one mount and speeder level - which is captured by the level cap. I like the credit cap as well.

 

But the Preferred customer is a different subject - I think that it should cost much more that a one time $5 investment to reach such a status. Some additional percs such as the ability to sync gear color, hide head slot, etc. might be in order here... but agree with gear and xp limitations - and no CXP.

 

There is an old saying: "You get what you pay for". Subscribe.You shouldn't be playing for free what it takes many manhours to develop and maintain. Subscribe.

[Andryah]

Either you missed my point or I wasn't clear enough... or maybe a little of both. For that I apologize. I did mention I understood the business aspects of it - what fails me completely is gamers willing to accept the decline in the quality of gaming it always brings with it. I was gaming long before the F2P model and can attest to the higher quality of gaming that existed then from experience. Maybe it is the current culture we live in with an entitled, self-centered "I want it all now with little or no cost to myself" point of view. This is what fuels the cash shop, after all: "Look at me and what I got! ...and I got it only on the 5th crate!" Thing is, they are paying much more to get it than if it existed to be obtained within the game and they had to play the game to get it... you know, how it used to be. They are shooting themselves in the foot - and doing it happily.

 

So ya, I can understand a business making this decision... I don't understand gamers putting up with it. But I am a gamer from the Dark Ages, too (shamless DAOC pun). I remember occasions where you were fighting a tough mob to reach a node (or something similar) and folks running by would help you knock it down before going on their merry way. I remember folks actually stopping and letting you hit the node because you had arrived first, then waiting for the respawn for themselves. And I remember doing that often for others.

 

I understand. I too am a long time player of MMOs, since late 90s. And you are correct that all MMOs used to be subscriber only. But it also was a much smaller player base then what plays in the market today. A lot of that is due to the surge in MMO players once WoW caught on and presented a much smoother and more enjoyable leveling experience, and set a new standard in the industry. That literally brought millions of new players into MMOs. n Remember leveling in DAoC (sans a buff bot)? Compared to WoW at launch.... DAoC was extremely tedious and lacked the fun of a true bread crumb quest based leveling to cap. In this regard, DAoC actually copied and applied a lot of what WoW did to try to stay relevant in the post WoW release MMO landscape.

 

But that was a long time ago and player tastes in that much larger MMO player base has changed over time as has the proliferation of mobile gaming and the newer business models that came with it. Inevitably, those business models did bleed through to MMOs, beginning with LoTRO many years ago. Had LoTRO tried the model and it failed miserably, then that probably would have been the end of the shift in trend. But the exact opposite happened, and players largely embraced it. It had no real downside as players that preferred to subscribe and have full access could still continue to do so. So it continued to meet the needs of the die hard subscribers, while expanding player base by giving others options to enter the game with less financial commitment.

 

Now.. years later... most MMOs are running flexible access models. Each is a bit different, but they all have the same motivation and appeal with a wide range of MMO players. I agree with you that us "old gummers" in the MMO market are NOT the main focus for these flexible access models. But I also understand that we are a minority in the market and it is up to us to adapt to changing business models if we want to play MMOs. I get your point about "why do players put up with it"... but the fact is... MMOs are not a democracy and players do not dictate commercial terms and conditions of access and play. And in reading comments in yet another thread about flexible access models... clearly a lot of players have become accustomed to options other then subscribing... because they are demanding more content and features WITHOUT paying. At the end of the day, we as players either are interested in what is offered, and choose to play under the terms offered, or we do not. If the majority of MMO players in todays MMO market preferred subscriber only business models, it is logical to assume that is the patch studios would go as it is a much more simple model for them to administer. The fact that flexible access has swamped out subscriber only in the market though... pretty well shows that it is embraced by a wide range of MMO players across the various titles and studios.

Edited July 18, 2017 by Andryah

[Ratajack]

I think that while WoW may not have been what it is today, what was there in vanilla was good enough that a massive community of people still have the strong desire to play vanilla WoW on private servers, and there's a well-known demand for Blizzard to introduce legacy servers to satiate this in some legitimate way. I don't see this ever being the case for SWtOR because what SWtOR had to offer in vanilla was nowhere near as compelling, and could never gain a lasting following.

 

There are many factors for that, IMO.

 

The cataclysm expansion changed the word of Azeroth. Zones are different now, and quests changed or were removed, etc.

 

The introduction of cross ream queuing and the later introduction of cross realm zones had a drastic negative impact on the sense of server community on every server due the loss of behavioral accountability.

 

People are looking through rose colored nostalgia glasses.

 

 

Even in this game, though, we have people asking for a return to, and a continuation of, the "vanilla" stories.

Edited July 18, 2017 by Ratajack

[Tsillah]

What people seem to forget is that even WoW wasn't WoW at first release. What I mean by that is it wasn't this massive theme park of max level rides like it is today. It took much much longer to level and the game was more about getting to max level than being at max level. Pretty much all MMOs start out like this.

 

Amazing way of completely missing the point. Pretty much all MMOs do indeed start out like this and they all make that same mistake as I mentioned. Have you perhaps noticed that pretty much all these MMOs didn't get close to the success of WoW?

 

Of course WoW didn't start that way and it took years to get there, but these other MMOs starting coming out when WoW was already in a solid position. And by deluding themselves by thinking they could do the same bare start as WoW they never really got close to competing with WoW.

 

That was the whole point I was making. Once it's been done and a certain standard is reached, that is the standard. Starting lower than the benchmark is just not very smart and no MMO therefore managed to rival WoW. If you want to compete with WoW you need to have a higher standard for your game release.

 

They all thought by bringing something cool or specific they could corner that market but the shiny wears off soon enough and then what you have left is an MMO that doesn't even come close to what's already out there. SWTOR had story and Star Wars, but within a month the mass exodus started and within a year most servers were already closed.

 

Why?

 

Because in my view they made a game with some cool shinies but forgot that they were competing with seasoned MMOs that were the benchmark and they didn't even get close to meeting it.

[Tsillah]

Possibly or a comprehensive, well thought out F2P model at the start.

The main reason I don't like F2P is because it allows a lot more gold seller traffic. Before F2P came in there were basically no spam messages. I think I saw one spam message in an in game mail. I reported it and it was never heard of again.

 

For that reason alone, I like to avoid F2P in MMOs.

 

But there is one more...

 

F2P also meant a cash shop. One of the most nefarious things ever made in the MMO genre as far as I'm concerned is cartel packs. High priced gambling packs that particularly in combination with a content drought after 3.0 came out meant that they also doubled as high priced surrogate content that subs had to pay for as well.

 

Currently it still is a disgusting method of running stronghold decoration supplies. I actually love decorating but because it costs hundreds of dollars/euros for each pack that comes out or hundreds of millions of credits in game to buy them, it's just really not moral anymore.

 

I do not believe in F2P, not because of the F2P players but because of gold sellers and excessive greed from the game company. The worst was that people spending that much on cartel packs didn't even translate into investment into new group content.

 

True enough in an MMO sense but I wonder if they hedged their bets on "but we have 8 class stories, all these sole players we will attract surely want to do all 8 of them right?" when in reality most people probably only did one in their initial play through, found little else to do and moved on.

Yes, I'm pretty sure they did. That's what I mean with rose tinted glasses. When the release of SWTOR was announced on E3 or Gamescom in 2011 they showed a teaser trailer. One of the things that was put in that trailer with big letters was the word RAIDS.

 

So guess what you are going to attract into your player base with that kind of advertising? And it said RAIDS...the game released with 1.

 

Now I actually didn't even get near a raid in my first month, but I heard all about how crap it was so I decided not to hurry. By the time I got there and started EV the first times when it was still tough, the last boss was still bugging out most of the time either resetting mid fight or not dropping loot if you did beat him after 5 tries.

 

The second ops that was released (KP) was released quickly but the damage was done and it didn't please the people who came for the raids either so they kept leaving.

 

BW Austin were just arrogant thinking they new best and so it took months before they even acknowledged there was a problem. I still remember the threads from people that were asking if they saw it right that BW was closing over 100 servers. Now we have 17 servers, but most of the 200 servers were already closed in 2012. And even with 17 servers there are people asking for merges because a bunch of them are very low population.

 

I still like the game for the positives in it, but BW has done more to the game than for the game it feels like sometimes.

[Dilemmas]

There are many factors for that, IMO.

 

The cataclysm expansion changed the word of Azeroth. Zones are different now, and quests changed or were removed, etc.

 

The introduction of cross ream queuing and the later introduction of cross realm zones had a drastic negative impact on the sense of server community on every server due the loss of behavioral accountability.

 

People are looking through rose colored nostalgia glasses.

 

 

Even in this game, though, we have people asking for a return to, and a continuation of, the "vanilla" stories.

 

Change always provokes the desire for the past, but when WoW launched; it launched with enough content to tide people over until they added more; and they did add more, steadily, year by year they added large amounts of content to what is now considered ''vanilla'' WoW. Before even their first actual expansion, they built upon the base game until there was a solid foundation. A foundation that a considerable amount of players today are content to revisit. This was not even close to the case with SWtOR. You can search for ''WoW content at launch'' to find the content timeline, compare it to SWtOR and see for yourself.

 

Nostalgia plays a part, but if it were merely rose tinted vision then it wouldn't last long enough to sustain communities like Nostalrius.

 

WoW was not the first MMO, but it redefined the shape of the genre and created a new standard. When SWtOR decided to imitate WoW, it couldn't afford to be a mechanical imitation with a half-assed roadmap and shoddy, lackluster delivery post-launch.

Edited July 18, 2017 by Dilemmas

[Jamtas]

Here's a major difference.

 

WoW started at X, then got more popular and had X+Y numbers. Since then there have been ebb and flows.

 

SWTOR started at X

 

It then became X - Y. Then X - Y - Z. Now it is X - A.

 

Point here is SWTOR never grew its base from release. It never returned to X or passed it. It has less subs now then it did when it started. It may be more than X months ago but it never grew as a game. It has settled into the spot of subs where it will most likely remain unless they invest back into it considerably to make noise in industry and gain new people. That doesn't seem to be in the cards so I think if you enjoy the game, resign yourself to that knowledge and go from there in expectations.

Edited July 18, 2017 by Jamtas

[Andryah]

Even in this game, though, we have people asking for a return to, and a continuation of, the "vanilla" stories.

 

Well.. to be honest... "vanilla" will always be a popular flavor... both in real life and inside the faux real life of MMOs.

 

In fact.. vanilla remains THE most popular flavor of ice cream, followed by chocolate.

Edited July 18, 2017 by Andryah