Discussion Topic: Bolster Changes in PvP

[olagatonjedi]

Still failing to see why that's a bad thing. As I've pointed out numerous times and I don't think a single person has countered - you can have better carrots than gear from the grind, vanity rewards prove far more popular in most other games than simple stat gearing - especially for PVP.

 

Which in general comes from the PVE element (for whatever reason) - we like to feel like we are getting stronger in our story and able to take on larger threats but the key there is "story". When it comes to PVP we want to defeat our fellow players (in very simple terms) and those who are competitive amongst us want to know we have done so on a level playing field to know we are truly better than that other person.

 

They are different aspects entirely, this is why some games now release purely PVP and some purely PVE.

People are always looking for an edge to help them be more successful. This includes both PvE as well as PvP - in the form of strategy and gear upgrades, among other things. Vanity items dont help get any edge. I'm curious to see where you get the idea that vanity items have been proven to be more popular, because people have been joining mmos with pvp, including gear progression for years, before vanity items were even a thought as a reward. The evidence proves contrary to your statement. Furthermore, you generalize way too much by saying that competitive players want to know they win on a level playing field. Competitive players just want to win - period.

 

The traditional MMO concept is on it's way out, games need to evolve or basically go the way of most of the MMOs that have come before. [/Quote]

I completely agree here, and have noticed it for about 10 years. The world moves faster now, and instant gratification is becoming more and more prevalent. People dont have 8 hrs daily to spend on raiding or progressing. That is my guess as to why CXP and GC was implemented - so people can acquire end game gear through another means that doesnt require bulk hours of time ina row. I can log in 20 times for 15 mins each to complete quests and still have a chance to acquire BIS gear, just as the player who logs in for 5 straight hours and puts in the same time. Life often doesnt allow everyone that type of time commitment, but people still want to be given a chance to progress their toon if they log in at all - win win for bioware for recognizing and implementing something to reward everyones time.

 

Having other "draws" than stat gearing is proven to be a big draw in PVP by all the other hugely successful PVP games that don't use stat gearing. People don't come to MMOs to PVP, they come for the stories and the PVE and then they either get into PVP from there or have it as a side activity.

Many people choose an MMO for reasons that include that PvP will be a part of it, because they can progress their toon to get an advantage.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

People are always looking for an edge to help them be more successful. This includes both PvE as well as PvP - in the form of strategy and gear upgrades, among other things. Vanity items dont help get any edge.

 

SOME people are yes, others enjoy the challenge. Me for example - I would rather fight you on level pegging than have me have a statistical advantage over you because if/when I beat you I'm going to know that most likely only happened due to that edge. For me that's not exciting or fun.

 

If I beat you easily because I'm more skilled then I know each match you play you will get better, I could even teach and help you. With gear grind all I've got to say "errr go grind more - you'll get there one day" - how many people is that going to drive away I wonder? Answer - many (this thread alone shows many who won't/don't grind and won't bother if statistically disadvantaged), PVP population in this game ( and most MMOs to be fair) is abysmal though granted the entire population of this game has taken a dive.

 

 

 

I'm curious to see where you get the idea that vanity items have been proven to be more popular, because people have been joining mmos with pvp, including gear progression for years, before vanity items were even a thought as a reward.

 

Think every other popular PVP game out there - your LoL, Dota 2, overwatch, cod etc..

Heck even mobas basically took the MMO PVP concept and put it into a non MMO environment and EVOLVED from there. Key word being evolved there - MMOs PVP are stuck in their ways with this gear progression nonsense and suffering as a consequence.

 

The evidence proves contrary to your statement.

 

The evidence is a dying game with dwindling PVP participation. See how those PVP servers are dead? See the complaints about queue times ... I'm not sure how long you've been playing for but PVP pops are utterly horrific to how they were a couple of years ago and are only getting worse. I'm sure the ONLY reason they pop semi regularly on populated servers now is because of PVE players wanting easier gear and that in itself is making PVP less fun with AFK players, players not trying much etc.

 

So where is this contrary evidence you speak of? You, like many before you, are just basically saying "this is how MMOs do it and it's popular" yet have nothing to show PVP growing in these games at all, plenty of evidence to show it dying though as per the above.

 

Furthermore, you generalize way too much by saying that competitive players want to know they win on a level playing field. Competitive players just want to win - period.

 

You accuse me of generalizing and then do the same thing? Read this thread - there are many competitive players who blatantly state they don't like the gear gap and get no joy out rolling players they have a stat advantage over.

 

To me it sounds like you are putting your own short comings onto others.

 

 

I completely agree here, and have noticed it for about 10 years. The world moves faster now, and instant gratification is becoming more and more prevalent. People dont have 8 hrs daily to spend on raiding or progressing. That is my guess as to why CXP and GC was implemented - so people can acquire end game gear through another means that doesnt require bulk hours of time ina row.

 

To be fair here ... CXP/GC is WAY worse method of gearing than what we had before imo in terms of speed. Previously I could get top end non set bonus PVE gear far quicker with comms/crystals. Now it would take 100-200+ (I gave up calculating when they decided tier 4 was a good idea) hours to do the same thing. Granted that GC now lets anyone get set bonus gear but that's only a boon to PVE players who couldn't or wouldn't raid (who don't actually need the gear funnily enough).

PVP gearing was far faster than what GC made it too - PVP had it's own gear and you could gear up in BiS in anywhere from 5-20 hours of play depending on how you went about it. Much quicker than 100's of hours required now.

 

 

I can log in 20 times for 15 mins each to complete quests and still have a chance to acquire BIS gear, just as the player who logs in for 5 straight hours and puts in the same time.

 

That's outright false. If you are starting from tier 1 ... how exactly do you have the same chance? You are conveniently forgetting the grind to get to tier 4 in the first place. Many haven't got off tier 1/2 because they either unsubbed at the insane grindyness of it or plain left and as long as that system is there they won't be back.

 

So not only do we have PVP gearing which many don't want at all (or at least max bolster would be nice to 250) it's not the worst grinding for PVP gear ever in this game (unless it was worse at launch?)

 

 

Life often doesnt allow everyone that type of time commitment, but people still want to be given a chance to progress their toon if they log in at all - win win for bioware for recognizing and implementing something to reward everyones time.

 

Go read the trend analysis on mirror.torstatus.com that I put up , it's not win/win - it's lose/lose, they are losing players, the game is going downhill in regards to population. Less players generally = less money being spent.

 

 

Many people choose an MMO for reasons that include that PvP will be a part of it, because they can progress their toon to get an advantage.

 

Yet where are all these people in this thread defending their right to keep the advantage? I think we should count the number defending it on 2 hands vs everyone else posting over 70+ pages.

[Icykill_]

@olagatonjedi

 

I don't understand why you are arguing and being so contentious to everyone. You seem to just be taking the opposite stand to everyone and challenging them. I can understand if you have something to add that is relevant and is opposite, but you aren't doing that. All you are doing is challenging others who are making relevant posts and starting arguments.

[Foambreaker]

@olagatonjedi

 

I don't understand why you are arguing and being so contentious to everyone. You seem to just be taking the opposite stand to everyone and challenging them. I can understand if you have something to add that is relevant and is opposite, but you aren't doing that. All you are doing is challenging others who are making relevant posts and starting arguments.

 

I've been a developer for 28 years and people like that get ignored along with:

• People who keep posting the same thing over and over because they think the last post "wins"
  
• People who think discrediting another poster makes them right
  
• All CAPS
  
• Annoying colors
  
• 500 lines of BS with no facts, the more BS it takes to explain, the less true it is
  

[olagatonjedi]

PVP population in this game ( and most MMOs to be fair) is abysmal though granted the entire population of this game has taken a dive.

MMO PvP populations always take a dive. They never sustain, which I'm certain is why PvP in MMO's gets very little, regular attention even from the start of the game.

 

Think every other popular PVP game out there - your LoL, Dota 2, overwatch, cod etc..

Heck even mobas basically took the MMO PVP concept and put it into a non MMO environment and EVOLVED from there. Key word being evolved there - MMOs PVP are stuck in their ways with this gear progression nonsense and suffering as a consequence.

The games you mention are not based within an MMO. Perhaps when the population of players go into the game knowing there is no gear progression, vanity items may serve as an adequate reward system. When character progression is the staple of the entire game, not so much.

 

The evidence is a dying game with dwindling PVP participation. See how those PVP servers are dead? See the complaints about queue times ... I'm not sure how long you've been playing for but PVP pops are utterly horrific to how they were a couple of years ago and are only getting worse. I'm sure the ONLY reason they pop semi regularly on populated servers now is because of PVE players wanting easier gear and that in itself is making PVP less fun with AFK players, players not trying much etc.

This trend is not new to SWTOR, nor is it new to MMO's in general. I've played many different PvP MMO's, always starting on PvP servers, or including myself in the PvP activity available in the game, and I have seen the same exact trend 100% of the time. It happens, and every one of these games has tried something different to retain the population, but nothing works effectively. There are a plethora of reasons for this that cannot be solved with one change.

 

So where is this contrary evidence you speak of? You, like many before you, are just basically saying "this is how MMOs do it and it's popular" yet have nothing to show PVP growing in these games at all, plenty of evidence to show it dying though as per the above.

The evidence is people joining MMO's with PvP knowing that gear progression is one aspect of the competitiveness involved. Nearly all, if not all, of the popular MMO's that included PvP had a very high player base interested in checking it out, knowing they would need to build their toon to be effective in PvP. Just as people joining LoL, DOTA, MOBAs know that gear progression isn't.

 

 

You accuse me of generalizing and then do the same thing? Read this thread - there are many competitive players who blatantly state they don't like the gear gap and get no joy out rolling players they have a stat advantage over.

Yet they still started playing an MMO with gear-progressive PvP, and still have active subs, LOL.

 

To be fair here ... CXP/GC is WAY worse method of gearing than what we had before imo in terms of speed. Previously I could get top end non set bonus PVE gear far quicker with comms/crystals. Now it would take 100-200+ (I gave up calculating when they decided tier 4 was a good idea) hours to do the same thing. Granted that GC now lets anyone get set bonus gear but that's only a boon to PVE players who couldn't or wouldn't raid (who don't actually need the gear funnily enough).

PVP gearing was far faster than what GC made it too - PVP had it's own gear and you could gear up in BiS in anywhere from 5-20 hours of play depending on how you went about it. Much quicker than 100's of hours required now.

For PvP, perhaps it takes longer. But overall, gearing is available to everyone at a much faster rate, assuming you don't limit yourself to one aspect of the game. If you do, that is your choice. But don't blame Bioware for your choice to not do other things that you're paying a subscription for. Do you also choose to drive your car in 1st gear, never take the freeway? Same difference. Bioware is giving you multiple avenues to gear up and match your competitors - you (and others) are the limiting factor. Displacement of blame, in this case, doesn't make sense.

 

That's outright false. If you are starting from tier 1 ... how exactly do you have the same chance? You are conveniently forgetting the grind to get to tier 4 in the first place. Many haven't got off tier 1/2 because they either unsubbed at the insane grindyness of it or plain left and as long as that system is there they won't be back.

If my 15 minutes are used productively (my choice, your choice), I absolutely have the same opportunity to build cxp to acquire gear and gain tiers. Do you just sit on the fleet while in queue, or do you do stuff while waiting around? I'm gonna take a wild guess here.....

 

Go read the trend analysis on mirror.torstatus.com that I put up , it's not win/win - it's lose/lose, they are losing players, the game is going downhill in regards to population. Less players generally = less money being spent.

Honestly, I can't view it. Tried going to the site, and it says site is down. Does it measure subscribers or in-game population?

 

I don't understand why you are arguing and being so contentious to everyone. You seem to just be taking the opposite stand to everyone and challenging them. I can understand if you have something to add that is relevant and is opposite, but you aren't doing that. All you are doing is challenging others who are making relevant posts and starting arguments.

Ahh, you want to be able to have a voice, but not allow others to. Suppression never lasts, bro. Check history.

 

As an educator, my goal is education and enlightenment. Never give up on someones potential.

Edited August 1, 2017 by olagatonjedi

[Caeliuxrules]

i've been a developer for 28 years and people like that get ignored along with:

• people who keep posting the same thing over and over because they think the last post "wins"
  
• people who think discrediting another poster makes them right
  
• all caps
  
• annoying colors
  
• 500 lines of bs with no facts, the more bs it takes to explain, the less true it is
  

 

I like

color!!

 

🍇🍈🍉🍊🍋🍌🍍🍎🍏🍐🍑🍒🍓🍅🍆🌽🌶🍄🌰🍞

Edited August 1, 2017 by Caeliuxrules

[Icykill_]

I like

color!!

 

🍇🍈🍉🍊🍋🍌🍍🍎🍏🍐🍑🍒🍓🍅🍆🌽🌶🍄🌰🍞

 

You seem a bit fruity too 😂

[MeNaCe-NZ]

MMO PvP populations always take a dive. They never sustain, which I'm certain is why PvP in MMO's gets very little, regular attention even from the start of the game.

 

So you've just justified all the more reason to do things differently to the standard MMO. Clearly what they do doesn't work well in player retention or growth so all you are really doing is supporting my point on things needing to change.

 

One of those changes should be 250 bolster or not stat gearing based on feedbac ksaying most who bothered to give feedback do not want it (reddit supported this too - 2 mediums, same majority opinion).

 

The games you mention are not based within an MMO.

 

Besides the point. PVP is PVP and if just because you are an MMO is no reason to not use the PVP as a major selling point of your game.

 

Perhaps when the population of players go into the game knowing there is no gear progression, vanity items may serve as an adequate reward system. When character progression is the staple of the entire game, not so much.

 

But that's a staple of an MMORPG which is primarily for the RPG or story/PVE part of the game. No logical argument presented so far implies this is how it should or must be for PVP.

 

This trend is not new to SWTOR, nor is it new to MMO's in general. I've played many different PvP MMO's, always starting on PvP servers, or including myself in the PvP activity available in the game, and I have seen the same exact trend 100% of the time.

 

All the more evidence that PVP gearing fails then.

 

It happens, and every one of these games has tried something different to retain the population, but nothing works effectively. There are a plethora of reasons for this that cannot be solved with one change.

 

So you have examples of large scale MMORPGs that have tried not having stat based gearing and failed then?

 

 

The evidence is people joining MMO's with PvP knowing that gear progression is one aspect of the competitiveness involved. Nearly all, if not all, of the popular MMO's that included PvP had a very high player base interested in checking it out, knowing they would need to build their toon to be effective in PvP. Just as people joining LoL, DOTA, MOBAs know that gear progression isn't.

 

Well you are utterly grasping at straws there because you have no numbers to support that view. Granted I haven one to the contrary except anecdotal evidence that I know a lot of people play and have played this game and very few seem to take part in the PVP aspect of the game otherwise pops would be far more numerous.

 

Every time a thread pops up why people don't PVP the reasons are the community attitude (******es basically) or having to gear - there are other minor reasons but those seem to be the main ones.

 

As for those other games their population is likely a large multitude more than this games and they only have 1 game type - PVP. Seems if games like this, that have bloody star wars, can't cash in on that sort of enjoyment of PVP it's clearly doing something wrong.

 

 

 

Yet they still started playing an MMO with gear-progressive PvP, and still have active subs, LOL.

 

Many are saying they don't and won't PVP with the system the way it is though ... read t he thread, stop just pretending you know what has been said in it.

 

For PvP, perhaps it takes longer. But overall, gearing is available to everyone at a much faster rate, assuming you don't limit yourself to one aspect of the game.

 

Utter ********, only getting to BiS is or set bonus and only for PVE, it is still slower for PVP.

Funny thing with PVE Set bonus or BiS is you don't actually need it for content unless you are doing operations. All other content bar HM/NiM operations could be done on top end non set bonus gear.

 

Only way you can gear faster now than before 5.0 is via operations where they increased the amount of drops from prior to 5.0.

 

 

If you do, that is your choice. But don't blame Bioware for your choice to not do other things that you're paying a subscription for. Do you also choose to drive your car in 1st gear, never take the freeway? Same difference. Bioware is giving you multiple avenues to gear up and match your competitors - you (and others) are the limiting factor. Displacement of blame, in this case, doesn't make sense.

 

Your point here is moot because you stated a fallacy that gearing is faster now. You sure seem to love trapping yourself in these logic traps.

 

 

If my 15 minutes are used productively (my choice, your choice), I absolutely have the same opportunity to build cxp to acquire gear and gain tiers. Do you just sit on the fleet while in queue, or do you do stuff while waiting around? I'm gonna take a wild guess here.....

 

Your 15 minutes vs their 4 hours ... you DO NOT have the same chance at getting the BiS gear at the same speed. Whilst you will be tier 1 they will be tier 4 ... where is your BiS coming from that gives you the same chances at the same speed? It seems you forgot the nonsense argument you wrote in the first place and are now trying to argue some complete other point.

 

Honestly, I can't view it. Tried going to the site, and it says site is down. Does it measure subscribers or in-game population?

 

Population trend based on server status.

[Kalarie]

I've been a developer for 28 years and people like that get ignored along with:

• People who keep posting the same thing over and over because they think the last post "wins"
  
• People who think discrediting another poster makes them right
  
• All CAPS
  
• Annoying colors
  
• 500 lines of BS with no facts, the more BS it takes to explain, the less true it is
  

 

I PAY AS MUCH ATTENTION TO MY POSTS AS BW DOES!!!

 

But i'm too lazy for 500 lines of BS so that's all you get

[Caeliuxrules]

@Icy

 

http://m.quickmeme.com/img/68/681a0c8d8463f18ac903d012fac5451879206a171547946bc0e884eb13c29b6e.jpg

 

😂😂😂😂 🍇🍈🍉🍊🍋🍌🍍🍎🍏🍐🍑🍒🍓🍅

[Transcendent]

Still failing to see why that's a bad thing. As I've pointed out numerous times and I don't think a single person has countered - you can have better carrots than gear from the grind, vanity rewards prove far more popular in most other games than simple stat gearing - especially for PVP.

 

See this is something I agree with you on, also, why even remove the gearing carrot when that can also be kept for those who want to use the gear in PvE content? Just add more carrot.

 

Surely a bunch of carrots is better than just one carrot?

 

As a new player entering PvP, having such a gear disparity on top of lack of experience is surely disheartening?

[MeNaCe-NZ]

See this is something I agree with you on, also, why even remove the gearing carrot when that can also be kept for those who want to use the gear in PvE content? Just add more carrot.

 

Surely a bunch of carrots is better than just one carrot?

 

As a new player entering PvP, having such a gear disparity on top of lack of experience is surely disheartening?

 

I've no problem with that at all, providing the bolster is set to BiS so gearing for PVP ideally becomes obsolete ... just an ice reward there in gear to use for PVE on top of more rewards.

[cybearr]

The bolster should be 240 tops. I went in with my alt in a full 240 gear to unranked and didnt even notice that i wasnt properly geared considering the availability of 246 mods. Bolster to 242 makes all the t3 gear what i got for hard earned uc irrelevant so it would be a slap in the face. Another thing: at first i hated the rng system but now that i have taken out the full 248 gear for my main i kinda got used to it. Regarding leveling alts. I think for pvp ppl should only use 3 toons. I read a guy a few pages back and he said he has 30+ lvl70 alts??? For rp, sure, If there is more of these guys its no wonder that half of ppl in warzone dont know how to maximise the use of their chars or have crap gear and basically uncarriable cause they are pretty much cannon fodder. Raising the bolster to 240 would solve the low gear problem but wouldnt make t3 gear irrelevant. T2 therefore should be dirt cheap but the uc prices of t3 and 4 should stay the same. But the uc reward for a win in wz should be raised to 10 and kept at 3 if its a loss. This might motivate the dead weight pvpers to pull their weight and try to win. Cause sometimes they r just farming numbers and dont care about objectives. Also i think raising the daily uc reward for pvp what u r doing anyway is a very good idea. Oh and the gear rating gate should be applied to all mm fps uprisings, hm ops, (again 240 min) and for ranked pvp 242.

Thing is that those ppl who are serious about pvp and passionate about it, want some improvement in the players' skill and u only develop that thru practice, if u throw a 242 or 250 bolster at every nab, they wont make the effort to be a good pvp player. Not to mention that its not fun losing in pvp when you know that half of ur team didnt even try. That for me is the opposite to fun.

[olagatonjedi]

So you've just justified all the more reason to do things differently to the standard MMO. Clearly what they do doesn't work well in player retention or growth so all you are really doing is supporting my point on things needing to change.

 

One of those changes should be 250 bolster or not stat gearing based on feedbac ksaying most who bothered to give feedback do not want it (reddit supported this too - 2 mediums, same majority opinion).

 

 

 

Besides the point. PVP is PVP and if just because you are an MMO is no reason to not use the PVP as a major selling point of your game.

 

 

 

But that's a staple of an MMORPG which is primarily for the RPG or story/PVE part of the game. No logical argument presented so far implies this is how it should or must be for PVP.

 

 

 

All the more evidence that PVP gearing fails then.

Check the League of Legends population trend in the US. It has dropped nearly 35% over the past 2 years. For a vanity-based reward system, that doesn't seem like a very good trend on it's own, regardless of how it compares to SWTOR.

 

So you have examples of large scale MMORPGs that have tried not having stat based gearing and failed then?

LOTRO monster play didn't have stat-based gearing. It's population is suffering as well.

 

Well you are utterly grasping at straws there because you have no numbers to support that view. Granted I haven one to the contrary except anecdotal evidence that I know a lot of people play and have played this game and very few seem to take part in the PVP aspect of the game otherwise pops would be far more numerous.

Everyone posting on this thread/forum has an active account with SWTOR in it's current state, correct?

 

Every time a thread pops up why people don't PVP the reasons are the community attitude (******es basically) or having to gear - there are other minor reasons but those seem to be the main ones.

I disagree. I would say the biggest reason for PvP downfall is class balance, with FotM classes. That leads into gearing concerns because they feel they need to be max geared in order to compete with those FotM classes.

 

Many are saying they don't and won't PVP with the system the way it is though ... read t he thread, stop just pretending you know what has been said in it.

And many people are still queuing. Play the game instead of just reading threads.

 

Utter ********, only getting to BiS is or set bonus and only for PVE, it is still slower for PVP.

Funny thing with PVE Set bonus or BiS is you don't actually need it for content unless you are doing operations. All other content bar HM/NiM operations could be done on top end non set bonus gear.

 

Only way you can gear faster now than before 5.0 is via operations where they increased the amount of drops from prior to 5.0.

As I said, if you are going to limit yourself to only 1 aspect of the game, you can't use that as a valid excuse for why gearing up is taking your longer than someone who is participating in 100% of what the game offers.

 

Your 15 minutes vs their 4 hours ... you DO NOT have the same chance at getting the BiS gear at the same speed. Whilst you will be tier 1 they will be tier 4 ... where is your BiS coming from that gives you the same chances at the same speed? It seems you forgot the nonsense argument you wrote in the first place and are now trying to argue some complete other point.

4 hours is 4 hours, regardless of how it's broken down. There is plenty of content in the game to progress your toon with a 4 hour chunk vs a bunch of small periods of time throughout the day.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Check the League of Legends population trend in the US. It has dropped nearly 35% over the past 2 years. For a vanity-based reward system, that doesn't seem like a very good trend on it's own, regardless of how it compares to SWTOR.

 

Where do you get your numbers from for that?

 

https://dotesports.com/league-of-legends/league-of-legends-number-of-players-14488

 

Userbase continues to grow

 

https://www.smurfs.gg/blog/players-2017

 

Userbase continues to grow

 

Yet you somehow have stats showing it shrinking by 35% that flies in the face of what the devs stated between 2014 and 2016 ... curious...

 

LOTRO monster play didn't have stat-based gearing. It's population is suffering as well.

 

A 10 year old game that didn't have a strong following for years is struggling with population?! Color me surprised.

 

 

Everyone posting on this thread/forum has an active account with SWTOR in it's current state, correct?

 

Yet many aren't happy, are threatening to leave and those that have left outnumbers those that have stayed by a large margin.

 

I disagree. I would say the biggest reason for PvP downfall is class balance, with FotM classes. That leads into gearing concerns because they feel they need to be max geared in order to compete with those FotM classes.

 

No doubt class balance plays a part and drives more people away from PVP who were already using it but it has little to do with the casuals who just aren't interested in playing due to gear gaps and grinds to get around them. So one issue driving people away and another failing to attract fresh players.

 

And many people are still queuing. Play the game instead of just reading threads.

 

And more are not, open your eyes and get your head out of the stand. Queue times are the worst they've ever been.

 

As I said, if you are going to limit yourself to only 1 aspect of the game, you can't use that as a valid excuse for why gearing up is taking your longer than someone who is participating in 100% of what the game offers.

 

Your strawman argument is skipping the whole concept of defending what you originally said. You stated basically that people could get BiS gear at the same rate even if one person basically plays 1/16th of the other player. You have not justified this and are now just talking nonsensical ********.

 

4 hours is 4 hours, regardless of how it's broken down. There is plenty of content in the game to progress your toon with a 4 hour chunk vs a bunch of small periods of time throughout the day.

 

And 15 minutes is not 4 hours ... ZOMG really!

[olagatonjedi]

Where do you get your numbers from for that? [/Quote]

https://www.unrankedsmurfs.com/blog/how-many-lol-players-are-on-each-server

 

A 10 year old game that didn't have a strong following for years is struggling with population?! Color me surprised.

Lotro didnt have a strong following huh? Is that really your argument? Just hilarious. It has been said to have nearly the following of Star Wars due to the longstanding, in depth lore of the realm.

 

Yet many aren't happy, are threatening to leave......

People who threaten to leave are still members, many of which are still paying recurring subs for a product they continue to complain about. That makes a lot of sense. Obviously they dont hate it enough to actually follow through with the threats of leaving.

 

No doubt class balance plays a part and drives more people away from PVP who were already using it but it has little to do with the casuals who just aren't interested in playing due to gear gaps and grinds to get around them. So one issue driving people away and another failing to attract fresh players.

Information available to review does not definitively allow this conclusion. Thats your opinion.

 

Your strawman argument is skipping the whole concept of defending what you originally said. You stated basically that people could get BiS gear at the same rate even if one person basically plays 1/16th of the other player. You have not justified this and are now just talking nonsensical ********.

 

 

 

And 15 minutes is not 4 hours ... ZOMG really!

You may need to go back and re-read my initial post regarding playtimes. Nowhere did i compare gearing in 15 minutes to 4 hours. I said 4 hours playtime in 15 minute intervals can allow players to gear up nearly as much as 4 hours of bulk playtime due to the cxp/gc system. This shows that anyone who uses their time productively can gear out fairly quickly, because the system allows it, better than in the past loot systems where BiS items were generally limited to raiding.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

https://www.unrankedsmurfs.com/blog/how-many-lol-players-are-on-each-server

 

What there supports your statement? Nothing I see. Come on, quote it.

 

Lotro didnt have a strong following huh? Is that really your argument? Just hilarious. It has been said to have nearly the following of Star Wars due to the longstanding, in depth lore of the realm.

 

Where? Where is it shown that this game has anywhere near the same following as this game in recent years? You sure do like to make up nonsense.

 

 

People who threaten to leave are still members, many of which are still paying recurring subs for a product they continue to complain about. That makes a lot of sense. Obviously they dont hate it enough to actually follow through with the threats of leaving.

 

Considering how far the population trend has dropped this year alone I would say many have followed through on it but hey keep pretending they don't the game is just as healthy as it's been for the last few years before it right? Heh.

 

Information available to review does not definitively allow this conclusion. Thats your opinion.

 

The information on bolster being to low and gearing being a deterent is in this thread from actual players. Open your eyes and try reading it ... of course you would need get your head out of the sand to do so.

 

You may need to go back and re-read my initial post regarding playtimes. Nowhere did i compare gearing in 15 minutes to 4 hours. I said 4 hours playtime in 15 minute intervals can allow players to gear up nearly as much as 4 hours of bulk playtime due to the cxp/gc system. This shows that anyone who uses their time productively can gear out fairly quickly, because the system allows it, better than in the past loot systems where BiS items were generally limited to raiding.

 

Right so you're saying ... than someone who plays for 4 hours can gear as fast as someone else who plays for 4 hours? BiS gear for PVP prior to 5.0 4 hours was 4 hours no matter how you split it - how is GC any better (it's worse, it takes longer overall to gear).

 

If you are arguing from a PVE sense then there is no comparison because you could only get BiS from operations so you could not get that with 15 minute stints and if you are going to cfompare yourself gearing in 15 minute stints from "questing" to someone running operations for their 4 hours (as it was before because surely we have to compare to how it was before right) then there is a night and day difference in speed because the raider can be obtaining BiS straight away for their 4 hours where as your 4 hours won't come close to BiS until you reach rank 4.

[olagatonjedi]

What there supports your statement? Nothing I see. Come on, quote it.

It's there. Surely someone who is lobbying for change in an MMO, which can potentially affect thousands of players, can figure out how to read a couple charts.

 

Where? Where is it shown that this game has anywhere near the same following as this game in recent years? You sure do like to make up nonsense.

The conversation wasn't regarding strictly recent years. It was regarding player participation with and without a gear-centric PvP system in place. Again, you seem to have forgotten the content of the conversation.

 

Considering how far the population trend has dropped this year alone I would say many have followed through on it but hey keep pretending they don't the game is just as healthy as it's been for the last few years before it right? Heh.

How many subs have dropped this year?

 

The information on bolster being to low and gearing being a deterent is in this thread from actual players.

Again, you lost the context. Where in this thread does it show that bolster is of greater concern than class balance? Without even looking, I can guarantee you there are more posts on the swtor forums regarding class balance issues than there are regarding bolster issues. I'm not saying bolster isn't an issue, I'm of the opinion that it's not the biggest issue. Context....again.

 

Right so you're saying ... than someone who plays for 4 hours can gear as fast as someone else who plays for 4 hours? BiS gear for PVP prior to 5.0 4 hours was 4 hours no matter how you split it - how is GC any better (it's worse, it takes longer overall to gear).

 

If you are arguing from a PVE sense then there is no comparison because you could only get BiS from operations so you could not get that with 15 minute stints and if you are going to cfompare yourself gearing in 15 minute stints from "questing" to someone running operations for their 4 hours (as it was before because surely we have to compare to how it was before right) then there is a night and day difference in speed because the raider can be obtaining BiS straight away for their 4 hours where as your 4 hours won't come close to BiS until you reach rank 4.

I'm sure it wasn't your intention, but you just agreed with multiple points I've made. Thanks! Point 1 - gearing to BiS is faster now. Point 2 - gearing to BiS is faster if you participate in multiple facets of the game. No one can lose CXP, so, in general, you will inevitably become max tier if you put in the same overall amount of time it would've taken someone to partially gear up prior to cxp/gc (even if you are just doing PvP). Furthermore, since you end up at max tier, you have less additional time needed when additional tiers, whereas with the old systems, the old gear basically became obsolete the moment upgrades were made

 

At this point, though, you don't appear to be interested in an open-minded discussion regarding the need for changes, or need for no changes. Regardless of proof, statistics, or lack thereof on your side, you are dead-set on your opinion (no matter how unproven it is), which means further conversation with you is pointless. Fight your fight, and I will mine, but I have no reason to continue rebutting claims directly to you, so i will continue to converse directly to the thread, rather than to you. Good day.

Edited August 5, 2017 by olagatonjedi

[Icykill_]

At this point, though, you don't appear to be interested in an open-minded discussion regarding the need for changes, or need for no changes. Regardless of proof, statistics, or lack thereof on your side, you are dead-set on your opinion (no matter how unproven it is), which means further conversation with you is pointless. Fight your fight, and I will mine, but I have no reason to continue rebutting claims directly to you, so i will continue to converse directly to the thread, rather than to you. Good day.

 

And you aren't dead set on your views?

Some of us have played since launch and can tell how badly the population has dropped this year.

I for one have unsubbed and it runs out this month and so many of my fellow pvpers have done the same. We don't need statistics because we can see with our two eyes the situation. If anyone in this conversation is close minded it's you.

I've personally got first hand experience doing Bolster testing and had a sticky thread on gearing before 5.0. If I still had all my screen shots I'd post them to demonstrate what I've been saying about Bolster and to support my belief that it should be 248-250.

How much testing have you done? I've done about 100 hours.

[DavidAtkinson]

And you aren't dead set on your views?

Some of us have played since launch and can tell how badly the population has dropped this year.

I for one have unsubbed and it runs out this month and so many of my fellow pvpers have done the same. We don't need statistics because we can see with our two eyes the situation. If anyone in this conversation is close minded it's you.

I've personally got first hand experience doing Bolster testing and had a sticky thread on gearing before 5.0. If I still had all my screen shots I'd post them to demonstrate what I've been saying about Bolster and to support my belief that it should be 248-250.

How much testing have you done? I've done about 100 hours.

 

 

Your post is so wrong in every aspect.

 

First of all bolster SHOULD NOT BE 250 248 ! EVER !

 

Are you serious ? After all the grind PVP-ers have been doing to gear up, you're telling me that bolster should be 248 ? Really ?

 

And what's the point of having 4 tiers of gear if any junkie who rolls a new 70 char is bolstered to bis ASAP ? Please explain to me what's the point to all of it.

 

Bolster should be 240 242 maximum. End of the story.

 

They should make earpieces and implatns legacy wide. IF I got on 1 char, I should use them on all, but that's kinda it.

 

248 needs a little of work but giving everything out for free isn't the best choice either.

 

 

PS: The population has been dropping every ear and it continued to drop this year too for many reasons and gearing isn't the major reason for it.

 

 

The game is getting old, running on an engine from my grandpa's time with little to no new meaningful content. As every product, this game needs to remain competitive on the market

 

It has taken a very wrong direction when the continuation of 8 class stories was ditched for a ONE story for all mode.

 

It cannot attract big numbers of people if the other MMO's are 1 or 2 steps ahead. The only reason it's still running is because it's star wars.

 

 

Before you even start: Yes it sucks that I cannot play 20 alts in PVP and I am playing only 2 alts. But I adapted to it. I suggest you do the same.

Edited August 6, 2017 by DavidAtkinson

[olagatonjedi]

And you aren't dead set on your views?

Actually, no, Im not. I have my opinions of course, but I have been willing to understand why, but more importantly where, the opinions of others have come from. The discussion has covered a variety of things, none of which have lead to any substantial, valid proof, from those demanding changes, showing that 1) there is an issue worth addressing to the point of maxxing bolster, and 2) there is a large export of player subs due to PVP inadequacies (vs all the other inadequacies of the game), and 3) how the changes suggested in this thread have faired positively in other, similar games that would show reason to implement them. I have provided statistical studies invalidating some claims, i have offered examples of alternate games that have faced similar pvp population challenges and werent able to successfully retain them, but never concluded what the reason was because no data is available for that. Ultimately this thread is an opinion thread, since nobody can prove anything. Yet everyone has their solid, steadfast claims and are unwilling to be reasoned with or unwilling to understand their limitations regard a holistic view of the game.

 

Some of us have played since launch and can tell how badly the population has dropped this year.

I for one have unsubbed and it runs out this month and so many of my fellow pvpers have done the same. We don't need statistics because we can see with our two eyes the situation. [/Quote]

You are limited by your pvp view. Low population in PvP, in a PvE-based MMO doesnt necessarily have everything to do with the state of PVP. If more PVE content is available, or more incentive is offered in other aspects of the game, obviously people will flock to that content, at the expense of another aspect - possibly PvP. Something people often overlook is the fact that you cant do two things at once. If im raiding, I cant be PvPing. If I am in the middle of a class story, FP, heroic, im less likely to enter the pvp match that pops because i will lose my progress in the pve instance.

 

 

I've personally got first hand experience doing Bolster testing and had a sticky thread on gearing before 5.0. If I still had all my screen shots I'd post them to demonstrate what I've been saying about Bolster and to support my belief that it should be 248-250.

How much testing have you done? I've done about 100 hours.

I would love to see your tests, and scientific method used, and results of yoir tests. I can tell you how much PvP experience I have, but my experience, just like everyone elses experience, is unique to your playtime, class, gear, etc. I could tell you, but it should be taken with a grain of salt because my experiences will be different than the next person. Furthermore, if i had enough reason to, I could skew my PVP experience whatever way I want to prove whatevwr point I want. That is one if the reason i would like to see someone show some actual, transparent proof of their experiences, tests, etc.

Edited August 6, 2017 by olagatonjedi

[MeNaCe-NZ]

It's there. Surely someone who is lobbying for change in an MMO, which can potentially affect thousands of players, can figure out how to read a couple charts.

 

It's not supporting your statement at all, you are making up stories and can't even clarify. Burden or proof is on you ...

 

The conversation wasn't regarding strictly recent years. It was regarding player participation with and without a gear-centric PvP system in place. Again, you seem to have forgotten the content of the conversation.

 

I literally said recent years so you are basically again making up stories and have no evidence ... I doubt at any point lotro had a higher population than this game when bother were live.

 

 

How many subs have dropped this year?

 

Plenty more than new players coming on board according to torstatus.

 

 

Again, you lost the context. Where in this thread does it show that bolster is of greater concern than class balance? Without even looking, I can guarantee you there are more posts on the swtor forums regarding class balance issues than there are regarding bolster issues. I'm not saying bolster isn't an issue, I'm of the opinion that it's not the biggest issue. Context....again.

 

The entire thread? Read it. Rarely at all does anyone complain about class balance being the biggest issue unless like you they are pushing to keep stat gearing or low bolster.

 

Funny how you start your part there with "thread" and end it with "forums" though, moving the goal posts much?

 

 

 

I'm sure it wasn't your intention, but you just agreed with multiple points I've made. Thanks! Point 1 - gearing to BiS is faster now.

 

No, it's not, this is proven.

 

Point 2 - gearing to BiS is faster if you participate in multiple facets of the game.

 

No, operations are faster.

 

No one can lose CXP, so, in general, you will inevitably become max tier if you put in the same overall amount of time it would've taken someone to partially gear up prior to cxp/gc (even if you are just doing PvP).

 

No, pure PVP gearing to BiS was much faster than now 0 you must be new.

 

 

 

At this point, though, you don't appear to be interested in an open-minded discussion regarding the need for changes, or need for no changes. Regardless of proof, statistics, or lack thereof on your side, you are dead-set on your opinion (no matter how unproven it is), which means further conversation with you is pointless. Fight your fight, and I will mine, but I have no reason to continue rebutting claims directly to you, so i will continue to converse directly to the thread, rather than to you. Good day.

 

At this point you're talking made up nonsense as you have the entire thread.

[olagatonjedi]

stuff

Im still waiting for specific numbers of subscription drops. Even further sub drops because of bolster issues. You keep claiming it, just like most of the stuff you claim, but still cant provide any data to prove it. Do you still believe the earth is flat, too?

[Jdast]

Olag,

 

Just know that some of us agree with you. One can completely discount Menace's hypocritical views (s/he always screams for proof, despite providing none when called upon, which is why Menace earned the first spot on my ignore list).

 

Icy is a different creature from her friend nearby (meaning New Zealand). And, so we are clear, I love New Zealanders -- best vacation I ever had! And, personally, I think Kiwis are adorable. With that said, Icy cares deeply about PvP, and has tested a number of bugs related to the bolster system. Many of those posts have been useful, including her most recent one.

 

But Icy's testing of bugs, etc., has nothing to do with the broader philosophical debate at hand. She has employed the classic debate technique of deflection: she thinks because she has a sticky from a while back and that she has pointed out some bugs that...

 

She speaks for the PvP community and what we want, what motivates us. She and Menace even went so far as to say they KNOW what the majority of PvPers want.

 

I respect Icy (Menace not so much), but it has been pointed out many, many times that she, meaning Icy, is not our PvP Ambassador. I could quote the people from various posts, but you get it. With that said, Icy can't seem to recognize how condescending and patronizing it is when she claims to speak for us.

 

TL;DR: I agree with you Olag. They may overwhelm you with verbosity, but substance-wise, know at least some of us agree with you.

 

The broader irony is that...even if they speak for the majority (which they cannot prove), they think it's a good idea for the masses to dictate development.

 

Regards,

 

Dasty

Edited August 6, 2017 by Jdast

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Your post is so wrong in every aspect.

 

First of all bolster SHOULD NOT BE 250 248 ! EVER !

 

Are you serious ? After all the grind PVP-ers have been doing to gear up, you're telling me that bolster should be 248 ? Really ?

 

So you are saying they should keep the sinking ship system in place because a few people grinded for it whilst many more were put off from PVP, if not the game entirely? The system should just stay in place, let those few who bother grinding play PVP amongst themselves, who cares if it's an archaic and flawed system that drives more people away from PVP than it will attract.

 

And what's the point of having 4 tiers of gear if any junkie who rolls a new 70 char is bolstered to bis ASAP ? Please explain to me what's the point to all of it.

 

There is no point to having 4 tiers of gear for PVP except to target the OCD players and drive the casuals awauy, it is up on the top 10 list of stupidest things they've done to this game.

 

Bolster should be 240 242 maximum. End of the story.

 

For you, for the majority they would prefer 250. Read the thread.

 

They should make earpieces and implatns legacy wide. IF I got on 1 char, I should use them on all, but that's kinda it.

 

Lol right lets cater to just your whims now. On one hand you don't want anyone else to get what you got from your grinding but now you want all your other toons to get easy street with legacy gear heh.

 

248 needs a little of work but giving everything out for free isn't the best choice either.

 

It might not be difficult work but it's more than a "little" work. I actually feel incredibly sorry for anyone who has purposely grinded out 248 gear ... what a waste of life. I get some can target it through raiding and the grind is nowhere near as bad and others have gotten 248 gear just from their normal play but for those that actually targeted it and grinded it ... wow, thanks for supporting a ****** system and making BWA think it's actually what the players want.

 

I say GG for you when they add tiers 5 and 6 later on this year.

 

PS: The population has been dropping every ear and it continued to drop this year too for many reasons and gearing isn't the major reason for it.

 

Gearing is A reason for it though, it deters more people than it attracts. Why put in systems that drive more people away than it keeps or attracts? It's just poor business sense.

 

 

Before you even start: Yes it sucks that I cannot play 20 alts in PVP and I am playing only 2 alts. But I adapted to it. I suggest you do the same.

 

Or, as they said, they will unsub and that's one left person who you to PVP with. One less person means thatl ittle less chance of timely queue pops. It all adds up but have fun sitting in your stronghold decorating or trolling gen chat or whatever floats ya boat whilst you wait for those queue pops.

I'm sure that player will be having fun playing something else and when they realize how much better it can be elsewhere, they likely won't be back.