Discussion Topic: Bolster Changes in PvP

[indelible]

I have to agree. You take the gear part out of the equation you have no gear gaps and everyone is viable from day one due to the bolster effect. I think people would be thrilled to all of a sudden have alts be viable again for PVPing both new alts and old. I think you would find a surge of new players flocking into PVP happy to have the 'constraints' of a heavy gearing time table to consider for viability in PVP. You can use a character token and be PVPing the same day on a level playing field. I think PVP would blow up significantly if they went this route, making quece times that much faster and with a happier PVP player base too boot. I honestly don't see a down side to the PVP community, to say nothing about what it would do for community relations between PVP base and BW.

 

OK, do the same with raiding. Remove gear from raiding, bolster everyone. Make alts viable again in ops!

 

Or not, because that would kill raiding. Just like removing gear would kill the core community that are stable. What happens if you remove a sense of progression from any game mode in an MMORPG is that you kill the core of the game mode and you increase the content demands of those that remain. So Bioware would have to invest significantly more money keeping the game fresh, because no progression = faster content churn = short life cycle. They're not going to do that, are they? The population might boom for a brief period of time, but then it would crash again to lower lows than everyone seems to perceive now.

 

I fail to see why PvP is being victimised and tortured into dropping a central draw of an MMORPG to keep a small minority happy. Seriously, if gear is totally nerfed out of PvP it will lead to yet another population decline and it will cut out chunks of the population that do flashpoints, ops and uprising merely to get the better gear for PvP.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

When you can make a post without misrepresenting the game's history, I'll take the time to offer you a more thorough response. When you claim that there has never been gear progression in PvP in swtor and then you go on to talk about PvP gear progression that was present right at the start of the game's life cycle, you're setting yourself up to look like you're being intentionally dishonest and misleading.

 

Let there be no confusion.

 

I am wholeheartedly and adamantly stating, I do not consider PVP Expertise gearing that existed prior to 5.0 "gear progression". Furthermore, until these last few weeks, I have never even seen the term "gear progression" used in this game before, in 6 years I've been playing.

 

Where you are getting the impression I have ever stated or even intimated that " PvP gear progression that was present right at the start of the game's life cycle" is beyond me, and I challenge you offer evidence of me doing so.

Unless you are confusing the mentioning of the system of battlebags that was briefly in place early in the game [rng gearing] which was an abysmal failure, but I never made mention of battlebags with regard to PVP.

 

I am categorically stating now, I do not believe there was ever a period at any point that PvP gear progression was present in PVP in this game. I do not consider PVP Expertise gear to constitute progression in any real sense of the meaning that normally associated with the term in MMOs. 2 or 3 days, imo, does not constitute progression. If you made gearing as it is presently the work of 2 or 3 days as well, I'd venture to say you would see all objection to gear gaps and BIS gearing for PVP cease and desist immediately. [From PVPers, Raiders would go through the rough, and I'd be shocked if there were more than 5 progression raiders who didn't unsub by the end of the first day of such a change and I'd unsub the second I heard such ridiculousness].

 

You can make any argument you like in defense of BIS gearing in PVP, and you are entitled to believe it's okay, I don't think you are wrong by doing so, but what I think and what you think is irrelevant in the big picture. In the big picture, PVPers do not want "progression gearing"/ BIS gearing in PVP. I fail to see why we need to go any further than that. They do not want it, there is no precedent for it in this game, it's only been this way since 5.1 [and now it's 5.2, that doesn't seem like much of a precedent to me].

 

Saying PVPers are wrong for not wanting BIS gearing in this system imposed on them is absolutely no different that Raiders objection to gear being taken out of Operations. Is there even one person in this game that thinks it was unreasonable that raiders objected to gear being taken out of Operations?

 

It's literally, the opposite side of the same coin.

 

They put gear back into Operations [for the most part], time to take it out of PVP. Fair is fair.

Edited July 8, 2017 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

OK, do the same with raiding. Remove gear from raiding, bolster everyone. Make alts viable again in ops!

 

Or not, because that would kill raiding. Just like removing gear would kill the core community that are stable. What happens if you remove a sense of progression from any game mode in an MMORPG is that you kill the core of the game mode and you increase the content demands of those that remain. So Bioware would have to invest significantly more money keeping the game fresh, because no progression = faster content churn = short life cycle. They're not going to do that, are they? The population might boom for a brief period of time, but then it would crash again to lower lows than everyone seems to perceive now.

 

I fail to see why PvP is being victimised and tortured into dropping a central draw of an MMORPG to keep a small minority happy. Seriously, if gear is totally nerfed out of PvP it will lead to yet another population decline and it will cut out chunks of the population that do flashpoints, ops and uprising merely to get the better gear for PvP.

 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but, didn't they do that very thing? I seem to recall whenever I did Operations in 5.0, no matter how many bosses we killed, no one peice of gear was to be found. Not on the first boss, nor the second, third, or even the last.

 

Bolster of the type that is being suggested for PVP has existed in this game before, thereby making a precedent for the legitimacy of the proposal.

 

Bolster of the type you are proposing for Operations, has never existed in this game before, thereby there is no precedent for it, nor is their any precedent for not needing any gear for Operations. Not only that, Raiding and "progression gearing" go hand in hand. If you made a proposal for Operations to no longer need gear, and everyone would be bolster to BIS gear levels without the need to go through the trouble of gearing, you would not find one progression raider who would want it, and you would not find one progression raider who would stay subbed if they instituted such a bolster in Operations.

 

Being as though the entire basis of my view point is based on long term precedent and the actual wishes of the people involved with regard to what they want their gaming experiences to be like.

 

I propose taking a vote.

 

Let's first asking PVPers. Do you want Bolster instituted in PVP that would negate the need for BIS gear in the PVP enviornment?

 

Than let's ask PVEers [Raiders]. Do you want Bolster instituted in PVP that would negate the need for BIS gear in the Raid enviornment?

 

Than let's tally that all up and let majority rule and get what they want.

 

Here's what I predict would likely be the results of such a vote [i could be wrong of course, this is just my opinion].

 

The PVP Vote would be 95% in favor of instituting bolster to BIS values in PVP. [i'd postulate that most of the remaining 5% of those who voted against the BIS bolster in PVP would be of the type that weren't in favor of the bolster because now they'd actually require skill in order to attain BIS gear because they'd at the very least have to do HM Operations and possibly NiM if they were unwilling to PVP at all. Which means, no more basic attack rotations, no more standing in the corner for as long as you could get away with it, no more not needing to be able to break 2k DPS, no more getting rewarded for intentional failure and loss due to any cause].

 

The PVE [Raider} Vote would be 99% against BIS bolster in Operations on all difficulty levels. [i'd postulate that most of the remaining 1% of those who voted for BIS bolster in Operations did so on accident, with a small margin of those who for whatever reason actually thought it sounded like a good idea].

 

Precedent matters. The wishes of the majority matter. Common sense matters.

 

I don't behoove any one the right to their opinion, even when that opinion is drastically against the majority, I do behoove anyone the right to impose their extreme minority view on the majority of their fellow players and their wishes when precedent in favor of the majority.

 

For some reason, and I don't for a second think it's out of any ill intentions on your part, you are of the mistaken belief that a majority of PVPers are in favor of BIS gearing in PVP. I say this honestly respecfully, you just happen to be mistaken. The majority of PVPers do not want BIS gearing in PVP. I won't necessarily say a majority want bolster to BIS levels, as it may be some measure of a split between bolster to BIS levels and a return to PVP expertise gear. I think there is a somewhat greater inclination towards BIS bolster, but I haven't seen too many people speak out against PVP gear being returned. Again, in either of these two options, precedent prevails as they both have exist in the game before.

 

Let me just add this. If they institute either of these two options in favor of PVPers wishes, it would be incompatible at the same time to still allow BIS gear "progression" in PVP as it now exists. At the same time, I can see it's value as a means of keeping more people in the PVP quece who enjoy both PVP and PVE. For myself, if BIS gearing in PVE is viable, that's where I'm going to go to do it. I do love PVP too, but, I love gearing and I love progression raiding and I'm going to go to PVE if that option avails me the better method of doing so. Leaving an equal method of BIS gearing in PVP would cause me to do more of an even split between progression raiding and PVP, so there could be a case made to leave a decent manner of gearing in PVP if their is concern for lowering the PVP player base. But better minds that mine should be put to such considerations. I am mostly a moron after all =]

Edited July 8, 2017 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[mhobin]

At this point in the game PvP should have the lowest barriers of entry possible. We need to encourage play, not hide the mode behind a long drawn out gear progression.

 

I want pops and competitive matches in both ranked and unranked. Gear tiers do not contribute to that.

[Pearlie]

At this point in the game PvP should have the lowest barriers of entry possible. We need to encourage play, not hide the mode behind a long drawn out gear progression.

 

I want pops and competitive matches in both ranked and unranked. Gear tiers do not contribute to that.

 

This assessment is as succinct as it is accurate.

[stoopicus]

At this point in the game PvP should have the lowest barriers of entry possible. We need to encourage play, not hide the mode behind a long drawn out gear progression.

 

I want pops and competitive matches in both ranked and unranked. Gear tiers do not contribute to that.

 

THANK you.

[Evolixe]

This assessment is as succinct as it is accurate.

 

Do enlighten us.

[Icykill_]

At this point in the game PvP should have the lowest barriers of entry possible. We need to encourage play, not hide the mode behind a long drawn out gear progression.

 

I want pops and competitive matches in both ranked and unranked. Gear tiers do not contribute to that.

 

Exactly

[wainot-keel]

Make it 246, so the difference between "entry" level and top level gear for pvp is minimum, like it was in 4.0, where the top gear was just a small bonus, and what mattered the most was team effort and personal skill.

[KnightTyler]

Hey folks,

 

For this week’s discussion topic, let’s talk about Bolster! This has been a hot-button item since the launch of 5.0 due to various changes which have been made. Here is a bit of a history on what we have done so far:

When we launched Eternal Throne Bolster increased everyone’s item rating up to 250 (which was 8 higher than the highest possible gear rating of 242 at the time). This meant that gear was irrelevant in PvP as Bolster made an equal playing field. However, it is our design intent that players in all gameplay have some form of gear progression and so in Game Update 5.1 we lowered the effect of Bolster in PvP to 232. To compensate for the launch of Tier 4 gear we increased Bolsters effect in PvP to item rating 238.

 

There have been numerous feedback threads on both sides of the fence on this topic, but it seems the larger consensus is that players would like to see a higher bolster rating in PvP to lower the overall gear gap. With that in mind we want to present 3 possible options and see what you think:

1. Bolster is equal to item rating 238. - This is how it works today, this effectively puts you slightly above Tier 2 gear.
   
2. Bolster is equal to item rating 240. – This would place Bolster equal to the start of Tier 3 gear. There would now be an 8 rating difference between Bolster and the highest tier of gear (248). For reference this is identical to the gap that existed for Bolster prior to 5.0.
   
3. Bolster is equal to item rating 242. – This would place Bolster at the top end of Tier 3 gear, meaning only Tier 4 gear is above it.
   

 

Let us know what you think? Do you like Bolster where it is? Do you want to see it go up?

 

-eric

 

 

Option 3 if we have to choose.

 

Maybe Valor could be reworked into a "prestige" like system where every time a new season is over, valor is reset to 0 and you have to level it up to be able to enter ranked PvP? Hitting max Valor could increase your bolster to max tier, which is currently tier 4. Of course the experience to max Valor would need to be reduced so that people could access it in a fairly short amount of time(reasonable), but it would force people to play unranked in the beginning and give a sense of progression every season as you work your way to the top.

[Alssaran]

At this point in the game PvP should have the lowest barriers of entry possible. We need to encourage play, not hide the mode behind a long drawn out gear progression.

 

I want pops and competitive matches in both ranked and unranked. Gear tiers do not contribute to that.

 

This.

 

At this point in the PvP lifecycle, you should be encouraging people to PvP with as many characters as possible. This game's PvP community simply isn't on a level that would support long gear grinds and high entry requirements for ranked. And without any system to balance teams around gear and skill rating, warzones can become a one-sided mess.

 

I remember a Hypergate match the other day where my team consisted mostly of new players at 230 gear, which obviously meant 236 boosted stats, and the enemy team had mostly 242-248 equipped players with lots of more hp, crit chance and overall DPS. And when 75-80% of the warzone is fighting over objective pylons, that 12 point gap does make a difference. Such things, which are encouraged by having long gear grinds without a balanced queue system to attempt and balance the teams, can quickly kill warzone participation.

 

Right now, the game's population simply doesn't support such crazy tests like long gear grinds and immense stat differences.

[Lirtoo]

I hate grinding new gear after every patch update, but when the work is done it would feel like a waste of time if bolster was close to the top tier. I would not mind having bolster in regular WZ, but in Ranked it should not be bolster at all. Ranked is like OPS master mode. No bolster.

[Evolixe]

I hate grinding new gear after every patch update, but when the work is done it would feel like a waste of time if bolster was close to the top tier. I would not mind having bolster in regular WZ, but in Ranked it should not be bolster at all. Ranked is like OPS master mode. No bolster.

 

Ok, but then you're not allowed to enter untill you have full 248 or whatever the max is.

 

If you're going to put up any argument to this whatsoever, then lets just keep the playing field fair and square shall we?

 

 

All this would do is fragment the queues even more than they already are. We just can't afford that.

We want as many people as possible playing these ranked modes but without bolster it's just going to turn into an even bigger nightmare than it already is. PvP should be fair game. Gear has no place at all.

Edited July 9, 2017 by Evolixe

[Pearlie]

Do enlighten us.

 

I don't need to. Other fella did.

[Icykill_]

Make it 246, so the difference between "entry" level and top level gear for pvp is minimum, like it was in 4.0, where the top gear was just a small bonus, and what mattered the most was team effort and personal skill.

 

Actually that's in accurate. Bolster was always set higher than the ranked gear. ie if you went into a WZ with 208 gear on it would bolster stats higher than out of the WZ.

Considering 208 was the highest ranked gear it is easy to work out that Bolster was higher than it. That means 246 isn't high enough for it to be like it was in 4.x. For that to happen it needs to be higher than 248.

Here is a detailed explanation of why it should be -

 

Sorry this is going to be a long post as Bio want better feed back than one liners. I will be saving and editing along the way as a precaution of not losing the work. (It may require some proof reading by me)

 

I'd like to make a couple comments based on points that have been made in the last few pages. Entry lvl gear (and Bolster) for pvp is a nightmare. I actually ended up on teams yesterday where we all had it on and the other team was close to BiS. I'm sure we all know how that went . To make matters just a little worse they were in premades and with the amount of people in queues these days we popped against them about 75% of the time. This killed the queue eventually because people got sick of being smashed. (There were actually good players on our teams, but that meant nothing, even against average BiS players). This is bad for pvp and doesn't help anyone at all, even if you have BiS gear on, you'll have no one to play against, so you have no pvp.

I also witnessed people who had BiS gear on who popped into our teams and leave and as soon as they saw we had on low gear. . This skews the gear gap even further because they keep requeuing till they get other geared players. That means all the lower geared players end up playing BiS players most of the time. Obviously this is a problem because its demoralising to lower geared and the grind is so long that it becomes infuriating and more and more people rage quit, myself included when my lvl of frustration becomes too high (I then log off).

I want to add by saying there are a few BiS players actively trolling people with low gear. They laugh and belittle people because they are smashing them and will target the lowest geared players on the team, no matter what the class. I've seen them run past other players and even ignore people capping just to troll 😡

 

So to the Bolster topic at hand. I took a fresh lvl 70 alt into pvp.

208 pvp armor on to retain my set bonus.

200 ear and implants

208 pvp relics

220 weapons.

Weapons, armor and relics were augmented with 228 Augments (relics 208)

 

I assessed these with both augments in and out.

 

For a comparison I also did this with -

168 pvp gear (which I still had)

190 pve gear

200 pve gear

230 teir one gear

I then compared the stats bolstered

 

All items were the same stat mix before bolstered.

Even though Bolster is set above all those gear lvls, I can tell you from comparing them that they don't Bolster the same and this is because each gear lvl is slightly higher than the next. (168 pvp gear maybe bugged as I got weird results)

 

This is exactly what would happen if Bolster was set at 250 and above the highest BiS gear. It's also exactly what I used to see happen prior to 5.0 when we had reg and ranked pvp gear and Bolster was set above ranked gear.

 

What should happen and I expect would happen (as long as all these teirs don't mess it up) if Bolster was set above 250 we would end up with three stat lvls the same as we did prior to 5.0

The lowest of those three would be the "sweet spot". The second you Bolster to a reg position and the third to a ranked position.

 

ie in 4.x we had the following gear/stat lvl

190 was the sweet spot to get the best stats from pve gear and not lose expertise (which is no longer in the game)

204 pvp gear was reg

208 pvp gear was ranked

 

As I've said in a few posts now, having Bolster above BiS does not negate the effort put into getting it. There will still be an advantage to getting it and you are rewarded with better stats. But the gap will be smaller.

The reason to do this is Bolster will never actually give you the stats at the same lvl as if you are wearing the exact gear bolster is set at. It's a shame I can't do exact testing on this to show you because the Bolster lvls aren't set at measurable gear lvls at the moment.

 

If Bolster is set at 250 and long as the teirs don't mess up the calculations. I predict 230 will be the basic sweet spot for entry lvl pvp gear. It will give close to what the mid level will give, but with a very small percentage lower.

The next will be 242 because 234 is too close to 230 and the difference between the two will be minimal. It will still be valid outside of pvp, so it shouldn't be removed because it nearly skips a lvl of Bolster in pvp.

That means 242 will be the mid lvl sweet spot for Bolster.

Obviously that means 248 is the BiS.

 

Now you may all ask how is that really that much different to now or if Bolster is raised to just below BiS? Good quest.

With a Bolster set at 250, it will try to boost stats to 250, but will allow for a difference between the different gear.

What we end up with is BiS a very small percentage above 242. Then 242 is a small percentage above 230. The gaps between these "real" gear lvls is actually reduce by Bolster and will be much small than current, but will allow for a closer playing field. If the Devs wanted an even closer playing field they could raise Bolster even higher than 250 and this would make those percentages smaller again. The same as when 5.0 released.

 

Remember when 5.0 released, the highest gear was 242, this means there was a much higher lvl of Bolster than there would be now if raised to 250 and those compressed lower lvls became closer together. If they were to make Bolster 256-258 the percentages between those lvls would be closer to what they were and would be hardly noticeable.

At 250 Bolster, I believe we will see a slightly increased percentage for BiS than at 5.0 release. This should be enough to satisfy those who spent the time min maxing to BiS as they will still have a small advantage.

 

If they want a 99.99% lvl playing field they could actually set Bolster so high that there would be no real noticeable difference between lvl 200 and 248. This is what happens in sub 70 regs. If you don't believe me, go do some regs. The lower the gear lvl the easier it is to gear as Bolster works harder, the closer you get to lvl 70 the least it works and that's when you must try very hard to min max, it's so hard in fact (if you don't know how) that it's easier to run with really low gear and let Bolster do it.

 

I really wish I was better at maths and had collected raw data back in 3.x and 4.x so I can show all the maths experts here what my results mean.

 

So to sum up. At 250 Bolster -

 

BiS will still give you the best gear and reward those who put in the effort

Mid lvl teir gear will still give you the second best

Entry lvl teir gear is... entry lvl

The difference is a smaller percentages between them. This mean people can still be competitive against other players in reg (which is really what this is about). Considering regs is a real mix of player skill and experience, this is where it's most important because the current system allows BiS players to demolish Teir one and even teir two players.

 

Obviously ranked is whole other kettle of fish and personally I believe there should be a gear lock out like we had in 4.x. If you don't meet a gear standard then you can't queue. This is not much different than NiM OPs where people with much lower gear than the Devs designed the OP will wipe unless they were OP gods to start with (we don't have those in pvp anymore or atleast they are so rare that they are mythical, but imagine one in BiS)

 

Lastly.

Bio should -

Make Bolster 250

Reduce the time taken to go from mid teir gear to BiS in PVP. I can give reasons, but this post is long enough and I think we've give Bio the reasons that gearing needs to be faster. But if you want me to I can give the reasons. Just ask and I can write another essay 😉

 

Edited July 9, 2017 by Icykill_

[Wimbleton]

Actually that's in accurate. Bolster was always set higher than the ranked gear. ie if you went into a WZ with 208 gear on it would bolster stats higher than out of the WZ.

Considering 208 was the highest ranked gear it is easy to work out that Bolster was higher than it. That means 246 isn't high enough for it to be like it was in 4.x. For that to happen it needs to be higher than 248.

Here is a detailed explanation of why it should be -

 

 

 

Wat?? Max gear was 70661 inside and outside of a warzone.

[Icykill_]

Wat?? Max gear was 70661 inside and outside of a warzone.

 

That is not correct... you are only looking at health

Edited July 12, 2017 by Icykill_

[Foambreaker]

This thread is pointless, they showed with the class balance threads that feedback is not used.

 

They are just stroking our egos while they do whatever they want.

[Lundorff]

This thread is pointless, they showed with the class balance threads that feedback is not used.

 

They are just stroking our egos while they do whatever they want.

 

Yes, yes it is. It was pointless from the start as level 242 was their max, and clearly what we are intended to be grateful for. This is SOE level of mismanagement.

[indelible]

Right now, the game's population simply doesn't support such crazy tests like long gear grinds and immense stat differences.

 

No one has suggested there should be a laborious gear grind in PvP. What has been suggested is that a sense of progression SHOULD be maintained, even if slight, and that removing gear entirely would actually have a detrimental impact on the game as a whole ( because it would, because it has in every other MMO that has tried it ).

 

Beyond this, the gear grind in SWTOR only became even vaguely laborious in 5.0 with the introduction of GC ( the reliance on RNG ) and the removal of loot drops in FPs and Ops. The latter change hurt the PvE community immensely and drove players away, and I have no doubt that a very substantial core in the PvP community would react in the same way; they would see that a fundamental element of what an MMORPG is about has been deprecated in favour of an approach that is not in keeping with the philosophy at the heart of these games. Those players would move to other games that more adequately cater to that philosophy. Let's not pretend that SWTOR has had a punishing grind for gear in PvP for very long; at the start of its lifecycle, completing weeklies and dailies, and further playing intently for a few hours a day, would net you two-three pieces of PvP gear a week, and it was very easy to get 5+ items in a week if you spent more than 5 or 6 hours a day in the game. And the second tier of PvP gear was all you really needed to compete. It is only recently that the "remove gear" argument has gained any real traction. There used to be some distinction in the PvP community, much like there is in the raiding community and the GSF community, but now... PvP is just that game mode you go to when you have nothing better to do.

 

I can understand why people would want PvP in any game to purely be about skill, but there must be an assessment of such efforts based on the context that PvP is framed in. PvP in MMORPGs is a very different construct to PvP in a MOBA and PvP in an FPS ( which is why the various comparisons in this thread between SWTOR's PvP and Overwatch or LoL are fundamentally flawed ). There must be an acknowledgement that in a game like this, gear is an important part of a character's progression and a key way in which player engagement is maintained. That's why gear drops were added back to ops, and that's why they'll almost certainly be added back to FPs with more frequency in short order.

 

I mean, it's no real bother to me. I enjoy SWTOR for many different reasons, but if at any point changes come down that fundamentally alter my enjoyment, I'll go to a different game that more thoroughly caters to what I expect of an MMO. One of those expectations, one of the most important expectations, is gear progression that has some impact, that matters in some way, in every game mode I chose to play. If that is removed, I'll move on *shrugs*. I obviously don't want that to happen however as I've invested a great deal of time and money into this game aha

Edited July 10, 2017 by indelible

[t-darko]

Well I've come to terms with that I won't get full top tier gear somewhere in the near future . . . on any toon.

 

I've come to term with anyhow you tweak bolster I won't get top tier gear in the near future . . . on any toon.

 

I've come to term with that I as a casual pvper just isn't welcome to get top tier gear on any toon any time soon . . .

 

I've even come to terms with that it wasn't like this before, I've come to terms with the 180 degree turn on the idea of fun accessibility pvp used to enjoy just isn't there anymore . . .

Edited July 10, 2017 by t-darko

[MeNaCe-NZ]

No one has suggested there should be a laborious gear grind in PvP. What has been suggested is that a sense of progression SHOULD be maintained, even if slight, and that removing gear entirely would actually have a detrimental impact on the game as a whole ( because it would, because it has in every other MMO that has tried it ).

 

Examples? Take it a step further maybe, where did those games go wrong? Did they just remove the gear grind and offer nothing up as an alternative? Were these games already on the way out? I mean it's easy just to say things but pretty hard to support them it would seem especially when more people seem to be in favor of removing gear grind entirely than not. That tells me it would beneficial, not detrimental.

 

Even many of those in favor of having a grind have stated that as their preference but if there was no grind and it all was skill they would still participate in PVP.

 

Beyond this, the gear grind in SWTOR only became even vaguely laborious in 5.0 with the introduction of GC ( the reliance on RNG ) and the removal of loot drops in FPs and Ops.

 

It was always laborious to PVP with gear from my personal perspective. It's somewhat bias of course because I enjoy games that I can pick up and play for my PVP, it's competitive against other people and I don't want to feel I'm disadvantaged solely because I've got different gear. PVE on the other hand is more a personal challenge, it's not even close to being the same thing or concept so I'm not sure why PVP and PVE kept being compared as though they are.

 

The latter change hurt the PvE community immensely and drove players away, and I have no doubt that a very substantial core in the PvP community would react in the same way; they would see that a fundamental element of what an MMORPG is about has been deprecated in favour of an approach that is not in keeping with the philosophy at the heart of these games.

 

The PVE change was detrimental because you still needed gear to the do the higher end PVE content, not because "oh damn I don't have to grind anymore". Removing a gear grind from PVP puts everyone on level footing and being able to jump straight into the content and enjoy it. The PVE change meant even more grinding of a ridiculous level just to get to the point you could jump into the content to enjoy it.

Nice try at trying to make the 2 issues sound like they are the same but they are completely different.

 

Those players would move to other games that more adequately cater to that philosophy.

 

Nonsense, what do you have to possibly support this view? Where are all thep eople saying they would stop PVPing if such a change was made? I've read this thread for example and there are numerous more people stating they are more likely to PVP if there was no grind than there are people stating they would stop PVPing. Would you personally stop PVPING if you had no gear grind anymore? If this gear grind was replaced by a cosmetic grind or other reward based system (as I still feel play should be rewarded so there are goals).

At this stage you just seem to be making assumptions and making up stories to support your argument.

 

 

Let's not pretend that SWTOR has had a punishing grind for gear in PvP for very long; at the start of its lifecycle, completing weeklies and dailies, and further playing intently for a few hours a day, would net you two-three pieces of PvP gear a week, and it was very easy to get 5+ items in a week if you spent more than 5 or 6 hours a day in the game.

 

It's punishing to all those that still view what you are stating as inferior to no grind at all. We want a better system, not a slightly less grindy system.

 

It is only recently that the "remove gear" argument has gained any real traction. There used to be some distinction in the PvP community, much like there is in the raiding community and the GSF community, but now... PvP is just that game mode you go to when you have nothing better to do.

 

Not true at all, it's come up a few times in the past when PVP popularity has been discussed and that only lures in the non PVP players when a dev post reminds us that PVP even exists in this game and we have an opportunity to point out why we don't PVP.

 

I can understand why people would want PvP in any game to purely be about skill, but there must be an assessment of such efforts based on the context that PvP is framed in. PvP in MMORPGs is a very different construct to PvP in a MOBA and PvP in an FPS ( which is why the various comparisons in this thread between SWTOR's PvP and Overwatch or LoL are fundamentally flawed ).

 

How is different? Why does it need to be different? You are basically taking a niche activity in some MMO games, that fail to attract large audiences, and saying it needs to be different to PVP models that prove successful and draw in millions of players.

Moba's even in a gameplay sense aren't massively different to PVP in this game, I'm not entirely sure what your point is here or how you're trying to make it. Those games prove a non gear based system with vanity rewards can and does work.

Your argument seems to be "this is an MMO this is how it should be" even though we've had a massively declining population as a result. Are you saying we shouldn't innovate and try grow the game because it's an MMO and you can't do that because it's an MMO? That's how it's sounding and it's a nonsense argument.

 

There must be an acknowledgement that in a game like this, gear is an important part of a character's progression and a key way in which player engagement is maintained. That's why gear drops were added back to ops, and that's why they'll almost certainly be added back to FPs with more frequency in short order.

 

Again gear drops were added back to ops because you still HAD to have gear to beat the content. The GC grind was insane just to get to a point you could attempt the content. That has nothing to do with if they just bolstered everyone and we could do whatever level of content we felt like ... that might very well prove successful for all we know, again with appropriate secondary things to aim for as a result of doing the content.

 

 

I mean, it's no real bother to me. I enjoy SWTOR for many different reasons, but if at any point changes come down that fundamentally alter my enjoyment, I'll go to a different game that more thoroughly caters to what I expect of an MMO.

 

Which many people are already doing due to how MMOs are fundamentally designed. They move away from MMOs altogether (it's a shrinking market) or to MMOs that offer innovation to fix the tired and old concepts of MMO gameplay that they weren't enjoying.

Keeping the status quo isn't growing the games numbers, they are diving to what is no doubt the lowest levels ever seen. The status quo won't work.

 

One of those expectations, one of the most important expectations, is gear progression that has some impact, that matters in some way, in every game mode I chose to play. If that is removed, I'll move on *shrugs*. I obviously don't want that to happen however as I've invested a great deal of time and money into this game aha

 

And it's inevitable that in any game when you make a major change if you lose 5 people to gain/retain 20 ... that's just how it's got to be. Also I've found in personal experience those that often say "if you do X change I'll quit" enver actually end up quitting as they experience said change and realize it was never as bad as they thought and even more fun in some cases.

[Cernex]

Bolster all to the same gear ilevel. The ability to earn gear through pvp is drastically slower than previously, and I understand why given the GC boxes and the attempt to incentivize players to play other avenues of the game. Unfortunately, the hardcore PvPers feel they've been slighted against because that's the gameplay they used to enjoy and dominate over the rest of us. As a commoner I fall in the range of making it all at the same gear ilevel (likely above any currently available gear), as I feel this will enhance the PvP play for the hardcore folks and still give us commoners at shot a win every once in a while.

 

Cernex

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[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Bolster all to the same gear ilevel. The ability to earn gear through pvp is drastically slower than previously, and I understand why given the GC boxes and the attempt to incentivize players to play other avenues of the game. Unfortunately, the hardcore PvPers feel they've been slighted against because that's the gameplay they used to enjoy and dominate over the rest of us. As a commoner I fall in the range of making it all at the same gear ilevel (likely above any currently available gear), as I feel this will enhance the PvP play for the hardcore folks and still give us commoners at shot a win every once in a while.

 

Cernex

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The ability to earn gear through PVP is not slower than previuosly, Previuosly you couldn't earn PVE/BIS gear doing PVP at all before 5.0. Before than it was PVP gear. Unless that's what you are referring to and I misunderstood you. Compared to how fast you could earn PVP gear, earning BIS gear through UCs gained by PVP is very much slower, yeah. Night and day. You use to be able to get a full set of PVP gear in two or three days.

 

If you used to play PVP before 5.0 and you went into WZs in PVE gear than yeah, they would demolish you, but you weren't supposed to use PVE gear in PVP, it wasn't designed for PVP, PVP gear was. That wasn't an unfair advantage, that was not using the right gear. You didn't go into Operations in PVP gear and expect to as good as people in PVE gear because PVP gear wasn't designed for PVE. So it was really the exact same thing. If you didn't use the appropriate gear for the game type [pve/pvp], than that was the persons fault for going in unprepared for the content they would be doing, ya know?

 

I was a progression raider prior to 5.0 so I had both a PVE gear set for Raiding and a PVP gear set for PVPing. That's just what you did if you did both PVE and PVP before 5.0 and it was a lot better that way.

 

The bolster in PVP idea would be the best way to go about it for all concerned, no doubt, and most people agree with you on that.

Edited July 11, 2017 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

<delete> Edited July 11, 2017 by WayOfTheWarriorx