Is it wrong that, revisiting SoR, made me think what the hell went wrong w KotFE?

unibim · June 30, 2017

I don't like explaining every single detail of everything anyway. I think it's boring.

What an amazing writer that dislikes details of story. 11/10 IGN.

DarthSpuds · June 30, 2017

To me the real explanation behind the 3rd faction was the decline of servers population and lack of budget. As such the imbalance between the factions became an issue and you had to streamline the story into a one fits all..

And managed to demonstrate beyond doubt that it doesn't.

All The Best

BenKatarn · June 30, 2017

*snip*

First of all Charles, I am very thankful for you making this post, because it helps clear up several things that I would most definately consider to be plotholes.

The big issue I'm having with this explaination, however, is that it is coming from a forum post years later instead of the actual game itself. Another recent post of yours cleared up that you essentially cut out an entire third of the story because of how KOTFE was received and wanted to come to end earlier than planned. It makes certain plotlines or suggested plot ideas even more useless in hindsight. For instance, the entire subplot of SCORPIO seizing the Eternal Throne to grant the GEMINI captains free will feels very redundant when it gets undone midway through KOTET, but that is a discussion for another day.

Ultimately, my biggest problem with KOTFE and KOTET is something I know a lot of other players think:

Vitiate and Valkorion are not and should not be the same person. Honestly, I would have preferred an explaination like what happened with Revan to the end result (i.e. when the Knight struck down the Emperor, his soul was split apart and Valkorion, who was another puppet / child remained active and formed another personality for himself, while the actual Sith Emperor is still sleeping / somewhere else).

Vitiate and Valkorion are too different for me to properly reconcile the idea that they are meant to be the same person. Valkorion feels like a completely different character from the Emperor we have met in the Jedi Knight and Sith Warrior stories. The goals of Vitiate and Valkorion don't mix well and I cannot shake the feeling that Valkorion was originally conceived as a completely separate character who was later turned into another form of Vitiate, as if someone came up with the concept of the Eternal Empire, thought it was a great idea, but the only way to put it into the game itself was by saying it was another project of Vitiate's. This, to me, is the equivalent of saying "A Wizard did it".

Nothing of the characterization we have of Vitiate, primarily through Lord Scourge (whatever happened to him?!), seems to be present in Valkorion. According to Scourge, "domination holds appeal to him. Only power". This to me seems very much at odds with Valkorion, who seems to want nothing but dominate. He wants to lead the Eternal Empire, dominate the galaxy and be worshipped as a savior and God. If Scourge is to be believed, Vitiate cares about none of these things. His very own line that you wanted to quote, "I will spend eternity becoming everything: a farmer, an artist, a simple man. When the last living thing in the universe finally dies, I will enjoy peace, and wait for the cycle to begin again" just doesn't work for Valkorion.

Vitiate appears to be a being, who has become so immensely powerful and removed from other living beings that he just wants to see everything end and start all over again. This appears to also be mirrored by comments from Tol Braga in the Knight story.

By comparison, Valkorion seems very... stereotypical. He's manipulator who promises to be good and beneficial to you and your cause, only to stab you in the back as the most opportune moment. It seems unforgivable to me that a character who seems so interesting and complex like Vitiate to end up being nothing more than... a Darth Zash 2.0. People saw it coming from several lightyears away, all while the marketing for KOTFE was like, "is he good or is he evil? Who knows! We will find out eventually! You might be surprised!"

Anyway, a few more points I'd like to go through:

As years go by, he becomes more and more dissatisfied with the Sith Empire he's created. He finds himself increasingly distanced from the Sith philosophy that first brought him to power and sees it as a dead end (as he expresses several times in KOTFE/KOTET) and, with the immense power at his disposal, begins striking out in search of something better. This is when his "long periods of silence" begin.

Here is my problem with this: The Sith Empire barely considers the Emperor to be a person anymore, he is essentially their deity, immortal, all-knowing, all-powerful. We know that Vitiate already rebuilt part of his Empire's power structure in the Revan novel when he purges the Dark Council entirely and starts over again. I don't see why he couldn't do that the Sith Empire as well. We know he has servants who are completely devoted to him and would die for him on his very command. Even of dissatisfied with the "ancient dogma", I would assume that the Sith Empire is still somehow worthwhile enough to utilize in some way.

Besides, what about all the groundwork that Vitiate laid over the course of the centuries until the Sith Empire emerged from the darkness of space? The sleeper agents, the Children of the Emperor etc?

(I don't think it's much of a stretch to believe that he could avoid destroying Zakuul, which is waaaay out at the outer edge of the galaxy, when using a ritual that he himself is creating over many, many years, but that should've been something we at least let Jedi Knight players ask.)

First of all, Vitiate's plan seems to have been set in motion long before the "long periods of silence" that you mention, because Darth Nyriss is already aware of his machinations in the Revan novel, three centuries before the game even takes place. That would mean that wasn't on his radar back then and he would have consumed the entire galaxy regardless of it. Likewise, his quote to the Knight strongly implies that he is tired of this galaxy as a whole and wants to look for more interesting things elsewhere. I really don't see how the Zakuulans are any better than the Sith, because in both cases he was surrounded by sycophants who served his every whim. I cannot see this same man who would consume trillions of sentient beings to further his own power to be that much into being a benevolent ruler to some backwater planet at the edge of known space. Because again, the Sith Empire already treated him like a deity. Or are you saying that he wanted a more "docile" populace to rule over?

Then, Vitiate abruptly stops the war, proposes a treaty claiming seemingly-random planets, and starts the Cold War. An obscure step in his plan to complete the ritual? Makes sense, though if we look at how old Valkorion's children appear to be, they'd be getting born right around this time... coincidence?

So you are saying that Revan's efforts to "temper his hate", as he puts it, while his prisoner had absolutely no part in this? That would diminish Revan's role in this even further.

His ritual is thwarted, and he is too weak to dominate another body or risk Valkorion until he's reinvigorated by Revan's plot in SoR

Question: what was going on with Valkorion while the Sith Emperor was out cold? Did he just sit on the Eternal Throne for months unmovingly, and no one dared to approach him to see if he was alright? Since it's stated in KOTET that Valkorion was "hollowed out" by Vitiate to serve as his vessel, I don't assume that the original Valkorion persona came back for a bit, or that "Valkorion" was on auto-pilot for a while. That also makes me wonder if the Hand knew about Zakuul and Valkorion.

Or is this perhaps what is portrayed in "Sacrifice", since Valkorion appears with blue eyes for the entirety of the trailer, right until Arcann strikes down Thexan and they turn the orange-red he has in the actual game? Was that the moment in which Vitiate "reasserted" control over Valkorion?

For this, we just have to look at the last person who ever stood up to Vitiate at anywhere near the level that the player's character did on Ziost: Revan. When Revan took a crack at him, Vitiate locked him up for centuries, picking and prodding at his mind the entire time. So we know that Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion doesn't destroy people who are a legitimate threat to him; he's fascinated by them. He entraps them, studies them, manipulates them, and corrupts them. (He did it to Vaylin, too! And Dramath!)

I'm not sure in regards to Vaylin. I think KOTET makes a very convincing case that Vaylin was simply a threat to him because of her very unnatural Force aptitude and the potential to become even stronger than him. He caged Vaylin's damaged mind via the rituals on Nathema to "disciple" her. I cannot help but wonder if Vaylin would not have been a better host body for him than the Outlander, ESPECIALLY an Outlander who is not a Force user. Also, from what I recall from my last read of "Revan", I can't recall that the Emperor ever really considered Revan a threat, but more of an oddity that piqued his interest for a bit. Vaylin on the other hand was a Force user with tremendous raw power and the potential to very well surpass him.

He arranges his own "death", whether by the player's hand or Arcann's, and invades the player's mind.

Question: what would have happened if Arcann didn't literally stab Valkorion in the back following the Outlander choosing to submit to Valkorion in chapter 1 of KOTFE? Would he have taken the Outlander's body then and there? Personally I would have considered the Outlander becoming Valkorion's new right hand a more interesting turn of events than how it actually played out. Likewise seeing Valkorion stringing Arcann along all this time feels a bit wrong from a story point of view. Looking back to "Sacrifice", it always seemed to me that he was expecting something "more" from Arcann than just military victories by use of brute force. The fact that he didn't mature at all until he is potentially recruited by the Outlander doesn't help either. Afterall, Thexan seemed a lot more balanced than his brother and the "Brothers" shortstory at least suggested that Thexan was closer to being in Valkorion's "favor" than his brother as a result.

To say "Oh, I totally knew my son would freak out because I neglected him and try to kill me so I could set in motion my plan to possess this other person to bring him down, have this them be heralded as a hero and then take over their body to take their place", kind of feels cheap. *If* he knew all this, why go through all these lengths when he could just get rid of Arcann and then either possess or recruit the Outlander then and there? Because Valkorion was so bored that he wanted to experience the "hero's journey" so badly? Am I a bad person for feeling that is "bad writing"?

Beyond that, I don't like explaining every single detail of everything anyway. I think it's boring. It's boring to write, and it's (almost always) boring to experience as a player. It's fun to read in a Wookieepedia article sometimes! But I don't think it's the job of the story to lay out every single thing (the movies certainly don't do so).

I feel that this is the reason why a lot of people have been rather disappointed with "Bioware storytelling" over the last few years, be it with Mass Effect, Dragon Age or SWTOR. A story has to make sense, follow established rules and laws and be coherrent. I am obviously aware that the story of KOTFE and KOTET certainly wouldn't have happened at all (or in this way at least) if everything about the game had stayed on course from when it first went live, what with class stories etc. But when an author states that what people perceive as plot holes us just "mystery for later" or an essential shrug, I can't help but shake my head.

I recently saw a video on YouTube regarding the writing process at Bioware (as described by Alexis Kennedy) and how it essentially results in "pussyfooting" writers instead of completely tearing scripts to shreds, looking for things that don't work or make no sense. There should be more "brutal honesty" in the writing process to filter out bad ideas than "a friendly roast". And I feel this didn't happen enough with the last few expansions. Then again, I do understand that SWTOR as an MMO is in a somewhat different position from a singleplayer game like Mass Effect. Both have deadlines of course, but something like Mass Effect can be delayed if need be, whereas SWTOR is constantly "in development" while people play it, and these people will jump ship sooner or later when nothing new comes out.

Lastly, and this is specific to this particular situation, but the only real source that could give the player all of this information directly is Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion himself. There's clearly no reason he would tell someone about a lot of these things if his goal is to seduce and destroy them, so we used more indirect means to reference them where it made sense.

Correct, but on the other hand having an "unreliable narrator" can be a very infuriating storytelling device for players if handled incorrectly. For instance, Varric from Dragon Age 2 is most definately an unreliable narrator, ESPECIALLY when Hawke is not on good terms with him, but in the end his unreliableness is nice additive to the overall story (since it's told as one giant flashback), but that is certainly not the case with Valkorion. It feels as if he is being cryptic just be cryptic... or because he enjoys seeing the Outlander struggle with all the things he says.

---

Again, I am grateful for you taking the time to visit this thread and taking in the feedback. It would be great if this could go on for a bit longer so that we can get a bit more insight into the story and the things that people either disliked or couldn't understand.

Edited June 30, 2017 by BenKatarn

Forren-Midosea · June 30, 2017

snip![/url]
Though as others have clarified, I haven't been the Lead Writer since late 2015

The biggest issue kotfe has is just one thing, it was dull because of "returning companions". No jokes. Atleast for me. If you had more resource and time to put all MAJOR story about Valkorion in to one storyline, in one expansion, it would be much better. Returning companions would work great if their quests were side story, story arcs etc. This would be a damn great expansion if delivered all at once. Was always saying to friends that if BW released all the story in 4.0 it would be a greater expansion than SOR (story wise).

BTW, Revan was always saying that true sith are hiding, so i was greatly disapointed seeing Zakuul filled with humans, not pure bloods.

Edited June 30, 2017 by Forren-Midosea

LordAppius · June 30, 2017

Hey, that's the line I was going to quote!

Since Valkorion is one of the biggest discussion points lately, and it's been a while so I feel like it's free range to discuss, I'll just lay out everything we had in mind for Vitiate/Valkorion and y'all can have something concrete to discuss and/or kick me about

**HEAVY SPOILERS BELOW**

Centuries before our story begins, Tenebrae becomes Vitiate, becomes Emperor of the Sith, and leads the survivors of the Sith into exile to Dromund Kaas. He rules directly for many years.

As years go by, he becomes more and more dissatisfied with the Sith Empire he's created. He finds himself increasingly distanced from the Sith philosophy that first brought him to power and sees it as a dead end (as he expresses several times in KOTFE/KOTET) and, with the immense power at his disposal, begins striking out in search of something better. This is when his "long periods of silence" begin.

He discovers Zakuul, which is in a comparatively primitive state (by Star Wars tech standards, anyway) and dominates Valkorion, as he describes in KOTET Chapter 2. He learns the ancient legends of the gods, of the Eternal Fleet, etc, and investigates them with his considerabe resources. By this point, he has certainly already started the collection of rare and powerful technologies and artifacts that we find in the Arcanum, his vault on Nathema, etc. He (or perhaps agents working for him, such as the Servants) finds the Eternal Fleet disabled in deep space and is able to seize control of it (based on how ARIES talks, we can be fairly sure that neither Valkorion nor his agents ever visited Iokath itself).

The technology of the Fleet helps him raise Zakuul still further. In his Valkorion persona, he constructs a more stable society that he finds more interesting, one that has more potential to let him explore different experiences for centuries to come (his quote above and his many claims of Zakuul being the bestest thing ever). So now, he just needs to ensure that he'll live forever, and that nothing else will threaten his new creation. The ritual (the one the Jedi Knight ultimately stops) will serve both purposes, so he sets that plan in motion, kicking off the Great Galactic War between the Sith Empire and the Republic. (I don't think it's much of a stretch to believe that he could avoid destroying Zakuul, which is waaaay out at the outer edge of the galaxy, when using a ritual that he himself is creating over many, many years, but that should've been something we at least let Jedi Knight players ask.)

Then, Vitiate abruptly stops the war, proposes a treaty claiming seemingly-random planets, and starts the Cold War. An obscure step in his plan to complete the ritual? Makes sense, though if we look at how old Valkorion's children appear to be, they'd be getting born right around this time... coincidence?

Senya tells us that Valkorion started becoming colder and more distant as the children grew up, so we can surmise that he's splitting his attention again during this period. The assault of Sel-Makor and the final attack by the Jedi Knight take a lot out of him. His ritual is thwarted, and he is too weak to dominate another body or risk Valkorion until he's reinvigorated by Revan's plot in SoR - otherwise, he would've surely done so. He could've used the Fleet to cause the necessary deaths, but he wasn't ready to reveal its power to the galaxy yet - more on that shortly.

The events of Shadow of Revan give him the boost he needs to become active again - and he does so in spectacular fashion on Ziost, all while playing up his "evil destroyer of everything" Vitiate persona to the max. He's greatly reinvigorated, he's dealt a significant blow to the Sith Empire (which had been rapidly increasing in strength after Rise of the Hutt Cartel), and he's baited the player and their allies in one fell swoop. All of which leads inexorably to the confrontation in the throne room in the beginning of KOTFE - but why?

For this, we just have to look at the last person who ever stood up to Vitiate at anywhere near the level that the player's character did on Ziost: Revan. When Revan took a crack at him, Vitiate locked him up for centuries, picking and prodding at his mind the entire time. So we know that Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion doesn't destroy people who are a legitimate threat to him; he's fascinated by them. He entraps them, studies them, manipulates them, and corrupts them. (He did it to Vaylin, too! And Dramath!)

So, to review: Valkorion has been revitalized; he's got a tremendously powerful fleet; he's got the Republic in the weakest state it's been since the treaty of Coruscant and the Sith Empire not far behind; he's discovered a new threat that can actually take a shot at him; and he's got a wife who's left him and children that he finds deeply disappointing (see pretty much any time he ever deigns to speak to them) in line to take over his supposedly perfect society. Time to solve all of his problems at once!

He spurs his son's bloodlust and ambition by setting him and the fleet loose on the galaxy (now that they're definitely in no state to resist the fleet's power or endanger Zakuul). He lures his new enemy into a trap and captures them. He arranges his own "death", whether by the player's hand or Arcann's, and invades the player's mind. Arcann and Vaylin do exactly what he expects, which is to generally muck up the galaxy and establish themselves as tyrants in need of overthrowing. And then he arranges and guides the player in doing just that, all the while laying the groundwork for dominating their mind at the moment of their victory and commanding a newly-reshaped galaxy as a heroic liberator - an all-new experience to try out. Too bad it didn't work out for him

So, all of this leads to a perfectly reasonable question: why didn't we just come out and say this in the game?

First, we only have so much room to tell a story, so we have to pick what seems most crucial. If a detail isn't vital to understanding the plot or really entertaining or personal, then we don't have time to spend talking about it. Maybe we assessed things wrong, or aimed to cover too much ground in too little time so too much was left out - perfectly fair feedback, and something I would certainly take moving forward. But in principle, there will always be details we don't explain purely because we don't have time to do so.
Beyond that, I don't like explaining every single detail of everything anyway. I think it's boring. It's boring to write, and it's (almost always) boring to experience as a player. It's fun to read in a Wookieepedia article sometimes! But I don't think it's the job of the story to lay out every single thing (the movies certainly don't do so). Plus...
Mysteries are fun, and I like leaving at least a few things up to players to work out, theorize, or decide for themselves. Surely it's more fun to leave some things to the imagination?
Selfishly, it's good for us as writers to leave some things vague so that we can expand or change them later. For example, I never said anything about Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion's original body anywhere up above, because I think it'd be a pretty cool plot element to explore someday. Maybe we won't get around to it, maybe we will, but if it's something that we can't give a lot of love now and want to do later, I won't hesitate to leave it out so that we have room to do so. Plus, as this thread plainly demonstrates, people don't like it when you retcon past details, so if those details aren't there to retcon...
Lastly, and this is specific to this particular situation, but the only real source that could give the player all of this information directly is Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion himself. There's clearly no reason he would tell someone about a lot of these things if his goal is to seduce and destroy them, so we used more indirect means to reference them where it made sense.

So, there's my giant post about Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion and our reasons for going about it as we did. Having a reason to do something doesn't make it the right thing to do, of course, so I'm happy to hear everyone's feedback and take it in mind going forward. But, as usual, please be cool about it and be respectful to one another

Though as others have clarified, I haven't been the Lead Writer since late 2015

Thank god..... The game is a train wreck followed by a second one...

Next time ask the players what we want... The last 2 expansions i have no words to describe how bad, lacklusting and uninteresting and shallow they were. And still continue to be, since the game continues to deliver horrible story and "content"

menofhorror · June 30, 2017

I think honestly the biggest problem of the swtor story since 3.0 was this quote you made: "Beyond that, I don't like explaining every single detail of everything anyway."

It's not boring for the player to get a full grasp of what's going on.

Costello · June 30, 2017

Hey, that's the line I was going to quote!

Since Valkorion is one of the biggest discussion points lately, and it's been a while so I feel like it's free range to discuss, I'll just lay out everything we had in mind for Vitiate/Valkorion and y'all can have something concrete to discuss and/or kick me about

**HEAVY SPOILERS BELOW**

Centuries before our story begins, Tenebrae becomes Vitiate, becomes Emperor of the Sith, and leads the survivors of the Sith into exile to Dromund Kaas. He rules directly for many years.

As years go by, he becomes more and more dissatisfied with the Sith Empire he's created. He finds himself increasingly distanced from the Sith philosophy that first brought him to power and sees it as a dead end (as he expresses several times in KOTFE/KOTET) and, with the immense power at his disposal, begins striking out in search of something better. This is when his "long periods of silence" begin.

He discovers Zakuul, which is in a comparatively primitive state (by Star Wars tech standards, anyway) and dominates Valkorion, as he describes in KOTET Chapter 2. He learns the ancient legends of the gods, of the Eternal Fleet, etc, and investigates them with his considerabe resources. By this point, he has certainly already started the collection of rare and powerful technologies and artifacts that we find in the Arcanum, his vault on Nathema, etc. He (or perhaps agents working for him, such as the Servants) finds the Eternal Fleet disabled in deep space and is able to seize control of it (based on how ARIES talks, we can be fairly sure that neither Valkorion nor his agents ever visited Iokath itself).

The technology of the Fleet helps him raise Zakuul still further. In his Valkorion persona, he constructs a more stable society that he finds more interesting, one that has more potential to let him explore different experiences for centuries to come (his quote above and his many claims of Zakuul being the bestest thing ever). So now, he just needs to ensure that he'll live forever, and that nothing else will threaten his new creation. The ritual (the one the Jedi Knight ultimately stops) will serve both purposes, so he sets that plan in motion, kicking off the Great Galactic War between the Sith Empire and the Republic. (I don't think it's much of a stretch to believe that he could avoid destroying Zakuul, which is waaaay out at the outer edge of the galaxy, when using a ritual that he himself is creating over many, many years, but that should've been something we at least let Jedi Knight players ask.)

Then, Vitiate abruptly stops the war, proposes a treaty claiming seemingly-random planets, and starts the Cold War. An obscure step in his plan to complete the ritual? Makes sense, though if we look at how old Valkorion's children appear to be, they'd be getting born right around this time... coincidence?

Senya tells us that Valkorion started becoming colder and more distant as the children grew up, so we can surmise that he's splitting his attention again during this period. The assault of Sel-Makor and the final attack by the Jedi Knight take a lot out of him. His ritual is thwarted, and he is too weak to dominate another body or risk Valkorion until he's reinvigorated by Revan's plot in SoR - otherwise, he would've surely done so. He could've used the Fleet to cause the necessary deaths, but he wasn't ready to reveal its power to the galaxy yet - more on that shortly.

The events of Shadow of Revan give him the boost he needs to become active again - and he does so in spectacular fashion on Ziost, all while playing up his "evil destroyer of everything" Vitiate persona to the max. He's greatly reinvigorated, he's dealt a significant blow to the Sith Empire (which had been rapidly increasing in strength after Rise of the Hutt Cartel), and he's baited the player and their allies in one fell swoop. All of which leads inexorably to the confrontation in the throne room in the beginning of KOTFE - but why?

For this, we just have to look at the last person who ever stood up to Vitiate at anywhere near the level that the player's character did on Ziost: Revan. When Revan took a crack at him, Vitiate locked him up for centuries, picking and prodding at his mind the entire time. So we know that Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion doesn't destroy people who are a legitimate threat to him; he's fascinated by them. He entraps them, studies them, manipulates them, and corrupts them. (He did it to Vaylin, too! And Dramath!)

So, to review: Valkorion has been revitalized; he's got a tremendously powerful fleet; he's got the Republic in the weakest state it's been since the treaty of Coruscant and the Sith Empire not far behind; he's discovered a new threat that can actually take a shot at him; and he's got a wife who's left him and children that he finds deeply disappointing (see pretty much any time he ever deigns to speak to them) in line to take over his supposedly perfect society. Time to solve all of his problems at once!

He spurs his son's bloodlust and ambition by setting him and the fleet loose on the galaxy (now that they're definitely in no state to resist the fleet's power or endanger Zakuul). He lures his new enemy into a trap and captures them. He arranges his own "death", whether by the player's hand or Arcann's, and invades the player's mind. Arcann and Vaylin do exactly what he expects, which is to generally muck up the galaxy and establish themselves as tyrants in need of overthrowing. And then he arranges and guides the player in doing just that, all the while laying the groundwork for dominating their mind at the moment of their victory and commanding a newly-reshaped galaxy as a heroic liberator - an all-new experience to try out. Too bad it didn't work out for him

So, all of this leads to a perfectly reasonable question: why didn't we just come out and say this in the game?

First, we only have so much room to tell a story, so we have to pick what seems most crucial. If a detail isn't vital to understanding the plot or really entertaining or personal, then we don't have time to spend talking about it. Maybe we assessed things wrong, or aimed to cover too much ground in too little time so too much was left out - perfectly fair feedback, and something I would certainly take moving forward. But in principle, there will always be details we don't explain purely because we don't have time to do so.
Beyond that, I don't like explaining every single detail of everything anyway. I think it's boring. It's boring to write, and it's (almost always) boring to experience as a player. It's fun to read in a Wookieepedia article sometimes! But I don't think it's the job of the story to lay out every single thing (the movies certainly don't do so). Plus...
Mysteries are fun, and I like leaving at least a few things up to players to work out, theorize, or decide for themselves. Surely it's more fun to leave some things to the imagination?
Selfishly, it's good for us as writers to leave some things vague so that we can expand or change them later. For example, I never said anything about Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion's original body anywhere up above, because I think it'd be a pretty cool plot element to explore someday. Maybe we won't get around to it, maybe we will, but if it's something that we can't give a lot of love now and want to do later, I won't hesitate to leave it out so that we have room to do so. Plus, as this thread plainly demonstrates, people don't like it when you retcon past details, so if those details aren't there to retcon...
Lastly, and this is specific to this particular situation, but the only real source that could give the player all of this information directly is Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion himself. There's clearly no reason he would tell someone about a lot of these things if his goal is to seduce and destroy them, so we used more indirect means to reference them where it made sense.

So, there's my giant post about Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion and our reasons for going about it as we did. Having a reason to do something doesn't make it the right thing to do, of course, so I'm happy to hear everyone's feedback and take it in mind going forward. But, as usual, please be cool about it and be respectful to one another

Though as others have clarified, I haven't been the Lead Writer since late 2015

While it is possible to retcon Valkorian in it makes no sense from the Vitiate character arc.

He master minds a war against the republic unleashing his children his loyal soldiers even deploying his wraith and his hand and yet he has:

The power to consume all life on planets (he is at the height of his power) as opposed to Ziost as expressed by Marr when the ritual on Yavin failed and he was only partially successful.

Had an eternal fleet and Zakuul which were able to easily defeat the Republic and Isotope 5 fueled Empire as nothing they had to compete. So with the combined might of his Sith Empire and his Eternal Empire would have been able to wipe out the republic and bring about the deaths he needed. Yet the Eternal empire is strangely absent, worse case if killing the republic didn't do enough damage he could have turned the fleet on the empire which would be just as useless against them as they 3 years later.

Was in control of the Eternal Empire and Valkorian while trapped on Voss. Yes he was a little distant from Senya but he wasn't missing during this time. So why didn't he send his fleet and army to rescue his body but instead relied on the Sith to save him a servant of the empire he no longer cared about.

As a side note only really applicable to the Sith Warrior but why is he bothering with Servant 1 to 12 and the Wrath when he no longer cares about the Sith Empire or their ways. He seems to have a very personal connection with the warrior and the knight given his not meant to care. Hell it makes Baras right in what he did and the warrior the idiot.

Nor is it explained why Marr and State say his definitely dead in RotHC, when his alive and well with his own body, say he doesn't have a body in SoR when he clearly does. It can be said they were wrong and made a mistake but then anything can be said to be wrong and a mistake and we end up where it was all just a dream. Or why he doesn't send the Eternal Fleet in to stop Revan on Yavin and turn it into a complete blood bath to fuel his rebirth rather than leave it up to others which has far less guarantee of working.

Further leaving open the question of how much more immortal he hoped to be, over and above being a world devouring super force god that lives forever, can't be killed no matter the best efforts of the original story and why 3 Zakuul kids were so great compared to all the other children of the empire.

Not to mention how bipolar he appears, is he the benevolent god emperor of Zakuul who the people worship and adore, who in the words of the traitor 'has always been good to Zakuul' and whose people are unwavering loyal to him and his kids yet before 5.2 is over the hero, the outlander, the saviour of the galaxy is already being betrayed for the 5th time since he go frozen in Carbonite (Arcann (if you side with him), Heralds, SCORPIO, Koth (if you do something when his not even around), Saresh/Minister whatever his name, Senya (and the people of Voss who try to heal a guy that ordered the destruction of 5 worlds just because, even while your fighting to save them). I'm sure there are more betrayals culminating with republic and empire trying to take a super weapon to use on you. Yet this same benevolent god wants to wipe out all life in the galaxy (though now all life except one planet) which includes his own Sith Empire who his written off as a lost cause after spending 1000 years guiding them and having them build his empire.

And while mystery is good I feel we have never answered the question from Chapter One, A mistake has been made but by whom? Was this a dig from the writing team at whoever made the decision that Valkorian and Vitiate should be the same person despite how that made so little sense from the original story. And that despite some vague references to Valkorian being the Sith Emperor it had almost no impact on the story with perhaps the biggest commission being for the Wrath who was supposedly his chosen yet Vitiate had long ago given up on the Sith and their ways so it seems what that was all about is a little confusing or why he was looking to corrupt the Jedi Knight when he was already grooming his three new children and is not meant to be caring about the sith and the jedi. As his found a new better way.

Edited June 30, 2017 by Costello

NSaynKnutt · June 30, 2017

/SNIP

Thank you so much for that!

I, like many others, found Valkorian confusing, mainly because the impression I got from playing SoR and the Warrior story (I haven't finished the Knight story) was that he only had one body at a time. And then suddenly he turns up on Zakuul with three grown children and I'm like, okaaaay, when did that happen? I realize it's not realistic for Valkorian to lay out all of his plans to the player, but somewhere, maybe in the final level where you are Valkorian, it should have been pointed out that he was living in two places at once. There's the line about the Empire being his "distraction" from Zakuul, but I still couldn't figure out how that worked with him being in a physical form somewhere else at the same time.

Also, a little nitpicky thing that I noticed: You don't explain that Senya and Valkorian were actually married until the final battle where she calls him "husband." The codex entry just calls her his "consort." I assumed they were unmarried lovers until that line in the last chapter and I was like

It didn't need any extra dialogue, but if the codex entry had said "wife" instead of "consort" it would have been a million times clearer.

LordAppius · June 30, 2017

They won't admit the 2 latest expansions were a total fu*k up....

everyone here is stating the most obvious points that bioware did not take into consideration.

When you finished Ziost, as the Wrath, Vitiate said "you are still precious to me", that seems what i say to a girl everytime i tell her "i will call you tomorrow babe. I will 100 % call you!"

The expansions makes no head or tails, they are not related to the previous stuff. The only thing that is remotedly linked is Marr appearing when you start 4.0, but then they just kill him right away. If Bioware killed Satele no one would actually care about it, let me rephrase, some ppl would not, but not as many as those that were pissed with Marr getting one shoted as a newb (yeah his boddy was all screwed up, but he still died a shameful death ....)

I don't have high hopes about the upcoming "expansion". That hope died with 5.0, well what remained from it after enduring 4.0 month after month.

indelible · June 30, 2017

Selfishly, it's good for us as writers to leave some things vague so that we can expand or change them later. For example, I never said anything about Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion's original body anywhere up above, because I think it'd be a pretty cool plot element to explore someday. Maybe we won't get around to it, maybe we will, but if it's something that we can't give a lot of love now and want to do later, I won't hesitate to leave it out so that we have room to do so. Plus, as this thread plainly demonstrates, people don't like it when you retcon past details, so if those details aren't there to retcon...

Seem like this might be a heavy handed hint as to where the story is going to go next? So I'll ask the question to end all questions: is He Who Has Many Names actually dead (in the definitive "no longer the big bad guy" sense, won't be coming back, his story is done, etc)???

Edited June 30, 2017 by indelible

Ylliarus · June 30, 2017

Hey, that's the line I was going to quote!

Since Valkorion is one of the biggest discussion points lately, and it's been a while so I feel like it's free range to discuss, I'll just lay out everything we had in mind for Vitiate/Valkorion and y'all can have something concrete to discuss and/or kick me about

**HEAVY SPOILERS BELOW**

Centuries before our story begins, Tenebrae becomes Vitiate, becomes Emperor of the Sith, and leads the survivors of the Sith into exile to Dromund Kaas. He rules directly for many years.

As years go by, he becomes more and more dissatisfied with the Sith Empire he's created. He finds himself increasingly distanced from the Sith philosophy that first brought him to power and sees it as a dead end (as he expresses several times in KOTFE/KOTET) and, with the immense power at his disposal, begins striking out in search of something better. This is when his "long periods of silence" begin.

He discovers Zakuul, which is in a comparatively primitive state (by Star Wars tech standards, anyway) and dominates Valkorion, as he describes in KOTET Chapter 2. He learns the ancient legends of the gods, of the Eternal Fleet, etc, and investigates them with his considerabe resources. By this point, he has certainly already started the collection of rare and powerful technologies and artifacts that we find in the Arcanum, his vault on Nathema, etc. He (or perhaps agents working for him, such as the Servants) finds the Eternal Fleet disabled in deep space and is able to seize control of it (based on how ARIES talks, we can be fairly sure that neither Valkorion nor his agents ever visited Iokath itself).

The technology of the Fleet helps him raise Zakuul still further. In his Valkorion persona, he constructs a more stable society that he finds more interesting, one that has more potential to let him explore different experiences for centuries to come (his quote above and his many claims of Zakuul being the bestest thing ever). So now, he just needs to ensure that he'll live forever, and that nothing else will threaten his new creation. The ritual (the one the Jedi Knight ultimately stops) will serve both purposes, so he sets that plan in motion, kicking off the Great Galactic War between the Sith Empire and the Republic. (I don't think it's much of a stretch to believe that he could avoid destroying Zakuul, which is waaaay out at the outer edge of the galaxy, when using a ritual that he himself is creating over many, many years, but that should've been something we at least let Jedi Knight players ask.)

Then, Vitiate abruptly stops the war, proposes a treaty claiming seemingly-random planets, and starts the Cold War. An obscure step in his plan to complete the ritual? Makes sense, though if we look at how old Valkorion's children appear to be, they'd be getting born right around this time... coincidence?

Senya tells us that Valkorion started becoming colder and more distant as the children grew up, so we can surmise that he's splitting his attention again during this period. The assault of Sel-Makor and the final attack by the Jedi Knight take a lot out of him. His ritual is thwarted, and he is too weak to dominate another body or risk Valkorion until he's reinvigorated by Revan's plot in SoR - otherwise, he would've surely done so. He could've used the Fleet to cause the necessary deaths, but he wasn't ready to reveal its power to the galaxy yet - more on that shortly.

The events of Shadow of Revan give him the boost he needs to become active again - and he does so in spectacular fashion on Ziost, all while playing up his "evil destroyer of everything" Vitiate persona to the max. He's greatly reinvigorated, he's dealt a significant blow to the Sith Empire (which had been rapidly increasing in strength after Rise of the Hutt Cartel), and he's baited the player and their allies in one fell swoop. All of which leads inexorably to the confrontation in the throne room in the beginning of KOTFE - but why?

For this, we just have to look at the last person who ever stood up to Vitiate at anywhere near the level that the player's character did on Ziost: Revan. When Revan took a crack at him, Vitiate locked him up for centuries, picking and prodding at his mind the entire time. So we know that Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion doesn't destroy people who are a legitimate threat to him; he's fascinated by them. He entraps them, studies them, manipulates them, and corrupts them. (He did it to Vaylin, too! And Dramath!)

So, to review: Valkorion has been revitalized; he's got a tremendously powerful fleet; he's got the Republic in the weakest state it's been since the treaty of Coruscant and the Sith Empire not far behind; he's discovered a new threat that can actually take a shot at him; and he's got a wife who's left him and children that he finds deeply disappointing (see pretty much any time he ever deigns to speak to them) in line to take over his supposedly perfect society. Time to solve all of his problems at once!

He spurs his son's bloodlust and ambition by setting him and the fleet loose on the galaxy (now that they're definitely in no state to resist the fleet's power or endanger Zakuul). He lures his new enemy into a trap and captures them. He arranges his own "death", whether by the player's hand or Arcann's, and invades the player's mind. Arcann and Vaylin do exactly what he expects, which is to generally muck up the galaxy and establish themselves as tyrants in need of overthrowing. And then he arranges and guides the player in doing just that, all the while laying the groundwork for dominating their mind at the moment of their victory and commanding a newly-reshaped galaxy as a heroic liberator - an all-new experience to try out. Too bad it didn't work out for him

So, all of this leads to a perfectly reasonable question: why didn't we just come out and say this in the game?

First, we only have so much room to tell a story, so we have to pick what seems most crucial. If a detail isn't vital to understanding the plot or really entertaining or personal, then we don't have time to spend talking about it. Maybe we assessed things wrong, or aimed to cover too much ground in too little time so too much was left out - perfectly fair feedback, and something I would certainly take moving forward. But in principle, there will always be details we don't explain purely because we don't have time to do so.
Beyond that, I don't like explaining every single detail of everything anyway. I think it's boring. It's boring to write, and it's (almost always) boring to experience as a player. It's fun to read in a Wookieepedia article sometimes! But I don't think it's the job of the story to lay out every single thing (the movies certainly don't do so). Plus...
Mysteries are fun, and I like leaving at least a few things up to players to work out, theorize, or decide for themselves. Surely it's more fun to leave some things to the imagination?
Selfishly, it's good for us as writers to leave some things vague so that we can expand or change them later. For example, I never said anything about Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion's original body anywhere up above, because I think it'd be a pretty cool plot element to explore someday. Maybe we won't get around to it, maybe we will, but if it's something that we can't give a lot of love now and want to do later, I won't hesitate to leave it out so that we have room to do so. Plus, as this thread plainly demonstrates, people don't like it when you retcon past details, so if those details aren't there to retcon...
Lastly, and this is specific to this particular situation, but the only real source that could give the player all of this information directly is Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion himself. There's clearly no reason he would tell someone about a lot of these things if his goal is to seduce and destroy them, so we used more indirect means to reference them where it made sense.

So, there's my giant post about Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion and our reasons for going about it as we did. Having a reason to do something doesn't make it the right thing to do, of course, so I'm happy to hear everyone's feedback and take it in mind going forward. But, as usual, please be cool about it and be respectful to one another

Though as others have clarified, I haven't been the Lead Writer since late 2015

This just skyrocketed by already insanely high adoration of Vitiate/Valkorion... wow, I wish we'd have this somehow in the game explained to us but at least we got it with this post. Amazing and epic post, Valkorion really is my all-time favourite Star Wars character, he may surpass Sidious even now that I read this. Amazing!

JonnAndCo · June 30, 2017

Three thoughts:

First, I really enjoyed your post Charles Boyd. An overview such as this immerses me even deeper into the story. Please do this again sometime in the future.

Secondly, I am glad you left a few mysteries out there. Hopefully we get to explore them again some day.

Lastly, I am concerned that condensing the expansions will leave us shortchanged when our missing crew members finally return. I agree they have been gone too long, but we deserve more then a "Long time no see. Let's rock!" sort of reunion.

Thanks for sharing.

indelible · June 30, 2017

Thank you so much for that!

I, like many others, found Valkorian confusing, mainly because the impression I got from playing SoR and the Warrior story (I haven't finished the Knight story) was that he only had one body at a time. And then suddenly he turns up on Zakuul with three grown children and I'm like, okaaaay, when did that happen? I realize it's not realistic for Valkorian to lay out all of his plans to the player, but somewhere, maybe in the final level where you are Valkorian, it should have been pointed out that he was living in two places at once. There's the line about the Empire being his "distraction" from Zakuul, but I still couldn't figure out how that worked with him being in a physical form somewhere else at the same time.

Also, a little nitpicky thing that I noticed: You don't explain that Senya and Valkorian were actually married until the final battle where she calls him "husband." The codex entry just calls her his "consort." I assumed they were unmarried lovers until that line in the last chapter and I was like

It didn't need any extra dialogue, but if the codex entry had said "wife" instead of "consort" it would have been a million times clearer.

I don't think he ever was in two places at once. He was either on Zakuul as Valkorion, or he was in the Sith Empire as Vitiate. I think that once he became Valkorion and took on Zakuul, his manifestations in the Sith Empire were merely puppets he controlled via the force rather than distinct "copies" of his spirit. Either he did this via moving between bodies, or he remained in Valkorion's body and simply "projected" himself via the control of an avatar.

indelible · June 30, 2017

Thank god..... The game is a train wreck followed by a second one...
Next time ask the players what we want... The last 2 expansions i have no words to describe how bad, lacklusting and uninteresting and shallow they were. And still continue to be, since the game continues to deliver horrible story and "content"

This criticsm is so weird, given that the reviews for the game skyrocketed in scores with both 4.0 and 5.0.

Ylliarus · June 30, 2017

I don't think he ever was in two places at once. He was either on Zakuul as Valkorion, or he was in the Sith Empire as Vitiate. I think that once he became Valkorion and took on Zakuul, his manifestations in the Sith Empire were merely puppets he controlled via the force rather than distinct "copies" of his spirit. Either he did this via moving between bodies, or he remained in Valkorion's body and simply "projected" himself via the control of an avatar.

I'd pretty much envision it like this, like his main conciousness was in Valkorion and significant portions in his Voices, but those were mere puppets while the Valkorion body was the one he resided in mainly.

MeNaCe-NZ · June 30, 2017

Hey, that's the line I was going to quote!

Since Valkorion is one of the biggest discussion points lately, and it's been a while so I feel like it's free range to discuss, I'll just lay out everything we had in mind for Vitiate/Valkorion and y'all can have something concrete to discuss and/or kick me about

**HEAVY SPOILERS BELOW**

Centuries before our story begins, Tenebrae becomes Vitiate, becomes Emperor of the Sith, and leads the survivors of the Sith into exile to Dromund Kaas. He rules directly for many years.

As years go by, he becomes more and more dissatisfied with the Sith Empire he's created. He finds himself increasingly distanced from the Sith philosophy that first brought him to power and sees it as a dead end (as he expresses several times in KOTFE/KOTET) and, with the immense power at his disposal, begins striking out in search of something better. This is when his "long periods of silence" begin.

He discovers Zakuul, which is in a comparatively primitive state (by Star Wars tech standards, anyway) and dominates Valkorion, as he describes in KOTET Chapter 2. He learns the ancient legends of the gods, of the Eternal Fleet, etc, and investigates them with his considerabe resources. By this point, he has certainly already started the collection of rare and powerful technologies and artifacts that we find in the Arcanum, his vault on Nathema, etc. He (or perhaps agents working for him, such as the Servants) finds the Eternal Fleet disabled in deep space and is able to seize control of it (based on how ARIES talks, we can be fairly sure that neither Valkorion nor his agents ever visited Iokath itself).

The technology of the Fleet helps him raise Zakuul still further. In his Valkorion persona, he constructs a more stable society that he finds more interesting, one that has more potential to let him explore different experiences for centuries to come (his quote above and his many claims of Zakuul being the bestest thing ever). So now, he just needs to ensure that he'll live forever, and that nothing else will threaten his new creation. The ritual (the one the Jedi Knight ultimately stops) will serve both purposes, so he sets that plan in motion, kicking off the Great Galactic War between the Sith Empire and the Republic. (I don't think it's much of a stretch to believe that he could avoid destroying Zakuul, which is waaaay out at the outer edge of the galaxy, when using a ritual that he himself is creating over many, many years, but that should've been something we at least let Jedi Knight players ask.)

Then, Vitiate abruptly stops the war, proposes a treaty claiming seemingly-random planets, and starts the Cold War. An obscure step in his plan to complete the ritual? Makes sense, though if we look at how old Valkorion's children appear to be, they'd be getting born right around this time... coincidence?

Senya tells us that Valkorion started becoming colder and more distant as the children grew up, so we can surmise that he's splitting his attention again during this period. The assault of Sel-Makor and the final attack by the Jedi Knight take a lot out of him. His ritual is thwarted, and he is too weak to dominate another body or risk Valkorion until he's reinvigorated by Revan's plot in SoR - otherwise, he would've surely done so. He could've used the Fleet to cause the necessary deaths, but he wasn't ready to reveal its power to the galaxy yet - more on that shortly.

The events of Shadow of Revan give him the boost he needs to become active again - and he does so in spectacular fashion on Ziost, all while playing up his "evil destroyer of everything" Vitiate persona to the max. He's greatly reinvigorated, he's dealt a significant blow to the Sith Empire (which had been rapidly increasing in strength after Rise of the Hutt Cartel), and he's baited the player and their allies in one fell swoop. All of which leads inexorably to the confrontation in the throne room in the beginning of KOTFE - but why?

For this, we just have to look at the last person who ever stood up to Vitiate at anywhere near the level that the player's character did on Ziost: Revan. When Revan took a crack at him, Vitiate locked him up for centuries, picking and prodding at his mind the entire time. So we know that Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion doesn't destroy people who are a legitimate threat to him; he's fascinated by them. He entraps them, studies them, manipulates them, and corrupts them. (He did it to Vaylin, too! And Dramath!)

So, to review: Valkorion has been revitalized; he's got a tremendously powerful fleet; he's got the Republic in the weakest state it's been since the treaty of Coruscant and the Sith Empire not far behind; he's discovered a new threat that can actually take a shot at him; and he's got a wife who's left him and children that he finds deeply disappointing (see pretty much any time he ever deigns to speak to them) in line to take over his supposedly perfect society. Time to solve all of his problems at once!

He spurs his son's bloodlust and ambition by setting him and the fleet loose on the galaxy (now that they're definitely in no state to resist the fleet's power or endanger Zakuul). He lures his new enemy into a trap and captures them. He arranges his own "death", whether by the player's hand or Arcann's, and invades the player's mind. Arcann and Vaylin do exactly what he expects, which is to generally muck up the galaxy and establish themselves as tyrants in need of overthrowing. And then he arranges and guides the player in doing just that, all the while laying the groundwork for dominating their mind at the moment of their victory and commanding a newly-reshaped galaxy as a heroic liberator - an all-new experience to try out. Too bad it didn't work out for him

So, all of this leads to a perfectly reasonable question: why didn't we just come out and say this in the game?

First, we only have so much room to tell a story, so we have to pick what seems most crucial. If a detail isn't vital to understanding the plot or really entertaining or personal, then we don't have time to spend talking about it. Maybe we assessed things wrong, or aimed to cover too much ground in too little time so too much was left out - perfectly fair feedback, and something I would certainly take moving forward. But in principle, there will always be details we don't explain purely because we don't have time to do so.
Beyond that, I don't like explaining every single detail of everything anyway. I think it's boring. It's boring to write, and it's (almost always) boring to experience as a player. It's fun to read in a Wookieepedia article sometimes! But I don't think it's the job of the story to lay out every single thing (the movies certainly don't do so). Plus...
Mysteries are fun, and I like leaving at least a few things up to players to work out, theorize, or decide for themselves. Surely it's more fun to leave some things to the imagination?
Selfishly, it's good for us as writers to leave some things vague so that we can expand or change them later. For example, I never said anything about Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion's original body anywhere up above, because I think it'd be a pretty cool plot element to explore someday. Maybe we won't get around to it, maybe we will, but if it's something that we can't give a lot of love now and want to do later, I won't hesitate to leave it out so that we have room to do so. Plus, as this thread plainly demonstrates, people don't like it when you retcon past details, so if those details aren't there to retcon...
Lastly, and this is specific to this particular situation, but the only real source that could give the player all of this information directly is Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion himself. There's clearly no reason he would tell someone about a lot of these things if his goal is to seduce and destroy them, so we used more indirect means to reference them where it made sense.

So, there's my giant post about Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion and our reasons for going about it as we did. Having a reason to do something doesn't make it the right thing to do, of course, so I'm happy to hear everyone's feedback and take it in mind going forward. But, as usual, please be cool about it and be respectful to one another

Though as others have clarified, I haven't been the Lead Writer since late 2015

Awesome post Charles. I personally think does a great job of putting some of the more unreasonable haters around here in their place. Good job.

MeNaCe-NZ · June 30, 2017

Thank god..... The game is a train wreck followed by a second one...
Next time ask the players what we want... The last 2 expansions i have no words to describe how bad, lacklusting and uninteresting and shallow they were. And still continue to be, since the game continues to deliver horrible story and "content"

Yet here you are ... BWA thanks you for your money for something you seemingly dislike with such disdain, making money has never been easier it seems.

Eshvara · June 30, 2017

Awesome post Charles. I personally think does a great job of putting some of the more unreasonable haters around here in their place. Good job.

I suppose you're not talking about Kiregan Freem:rak_02:

Ok, that wasn't funny.

Edited June 30, 2017 by Eshvara

Ylliarus · June 30, 2017

So, all of this leads to a perfectly reasonable question: why didn't we just come out and say this in the game?

First, we only have so much room to tell a story, so we have to pick what seems most crucial. If a detail isn't vital to understanding the plot or really entertaining or personal, then we don't have time to spend talking about it. Maybe we assessed things wrong, or aimed to cover too much ground in too little time so too much was left out - perfectly fair feedback, and something I would certainly take moving forward. But in principle, there will always be details we don't explain purely because we don't have time to do so.
Beyond that, I don't like explaining every single detail of everything anyway. I think it's boring. It's boring to write, and it's (almost always) boring to experience as a player. It's fun to read in a Wookieepedia article sometimes! But I don't think it's the job of the story to lay out every single thing (the movies certainly don't do so). Plus...
Mysteries are fun, and I like leaving at least a few things up to players to work out, theorize, or decide for themselves. Surely it's more fun to leave some things to the imagination?
Selfishly, it's good for us as writers to leave some things vague so that we can expand or change them later. For example, I never said anything about Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion's original body anywhere up above, because I think it'd be a pretty cool plot element to explore someday. Maybe we won't get around to it, maybe we will, but if it's something that we can't give a lot of love now and want to do later, I won't hesitate to leave it out so that we have room to do so. Plus, as this thread plainly demonstrates, people don't like it when you retcon past details, so if those details aren't there to retcon...
Lastly, and this is specific to this particular situation, but the only real source that could give the player all of this information directly is Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion himself. There's clearly no reason he would tell someone about a lot of these things if his goal is to seduce and destroy them, so we used more indirect means to reference them where it made sense.

I'd be very down for that, I think it could provide an amazing narrative that would also allow us to dive in deeper into how the Sith Empire of old looked like and expand the lore of it. Also, it would be the perfect comeback moment for Scourge or Kira or even both. I'd also say that it would be a good moment to finish the Hand of the Emperor arc we had with the Sith Warrior and tie that loose end, as to this day we have no clue what had happened with them. The last time we saw them was on Rishi with the Opticron droids and Vowrawn (sidenote: please make him the next Sith Emperor, I beg you or have him reform and lead the Dark Council).

Edited June 30, 2017 by Ylliarus

menofhorror · June 30, 2017

I'd be very down for that, I think it could provide an amazing narrative that would also allow us to dive in deeper into how the Sith Empire of old looked like and expand the lore of it. Also, it would be the perfect comeback moment for Scourge or Kira or even both. I'd also say that it would be a good moment to finish the Hand of the Emperor arc we had with the Sith Warrior and tie that loose end, as to this day we have no clue what had happened with them. The last time we saw them was on Rishi with the Opticron droids and Vowrawn (sidenote: please make him the next Sith Emperor, I beg you or have him reform and lead the Dark Council).

Definitely agree with that.

Quraswren · July 1, 2017

Nobody cares, fix the game.

BINGO ^

It was a mediocre, plot hole filled trollop of a story and an even worse play through with a spawn infested right on you joke.

Yes, please fix the game and steer clear of the one story for all because you're not good enough at it.

Jdast · July 1, 2017

BINGO ^

It was a mediocre, plot hole filled trollop of a story and an even worse play through with a spawn infested right on you joke.

Yes, please fix the game and steer clear of the one story for all because you're not good enough at it.

You can take this how you will but...I rejoined the game 7 months ago after a 4 year absence. I joked with my boyfriend when I saw your name as the most recent poster. I said:

If Quraswren writes a post totally crapping all over the game, you cook and clean dishes tonight. Sadly, he was smart enough not to take the bet. He said to me, "isn't he the one who constantly *****es?"

Point being: I don't know you from Adam but...

From some posters, I know I will get a lecture about forum etiquette.

From some posters, I know I will get a lecture about how they have been victimized.

From some posters, I know it's all about old jedi robes and tracer missile animations.

But after six short months I know that EVERY single post of yours is going to be about how this game sucks, which begs a question that need not even be asked...

Regards,

Dasty

Edited July 1, 2017 by Jdast

HuaRya · July 1, 2017

Hey, that's the line I was going to quote!

Since Valkorion is one of the biggest discussion points lately, and it's been a while so I feel like it's free range to discuss, I'll just lay out everything we had in mind for Vitiate/Valkorion and y'all can have something concrete to discuss and/or kick me about

Inspiring and fun read Charles. Thank you.

ZionHalcyon · July 1, 2017

Hey, that's the line I was going to quote!

Since Valkorion is one of the biggest discussion points lately, and it's been a while so I feel like it's free range to discuss, I'll just lay out everything we had in mind for Vitiate/Valkorion and y'all can have something concrete to discuss and/or kick me about

**HEAVY SPOILERS BELOW**

Centuries before our story begins, Tenebrae becomes Vitiate, becomes Emperor of the Sith, and leads the survivors of the Sith into exile to Dromund Kaas. He rules directly for many years.

As years go by, he becomes more and more dissatisfied with the Sith Empire he's created. He finds himself increasingly distanced from the Sith philosophy that first brought him to power and sees it as a dead end (as he expresses several times in KOTFE/KOTET) and, with the immense power at his disposal, begins striking out in search of something better. This is when his "long periods of silence" begin.

He discovers Zakuul, which is in a comparatively primitive state (by Star Wars tech standards, anyway) and dominates Valkorion, as he describes in KOTET Chapter 2. He learns the ancient legends of the gods, of the Eternal Fleet, etc, and investigates them with his considerabe resources. By this point, he has certainly already started the collection of rare and powerful technologies and artifacts that we find in the Arcanum, his vault on Nathema, etc. He (or perhaps agents working for him, such as the Servants) finds the Eternal Fleet disabled in deep space and is able to seize control of it (based on how ARIES talks, we can be fairly sure that neither Valkorion nor his agents ever visited Iokath itself).

The technology of the Fleet helps him raise Zakuul still further. In his Valkorion persona, he constructs a more stable society that he finds more interesting, one that has more potential to let him explore different experiences for centuries to come (his quote above and his many claims of Zakuul being the bestest thing ever). So now, he just needs to ensure that he'll live forever, and that nothing else will threaten his new creation. The ritual (the one the Jedi Knight ultimately stops) will serve both purposes, so he sets that plan in motion, kicking off the Great Galactic War between the Sith Empire and the Republic. (I don't think it's much of a stretch to believe that he could avoid destroying Zakuul, which is waaaay out at the outer edge of the galaxy, when using a ritual that he himself is creating over many, many years, but that should've been something we at least let Jedi Knight players ask.)

Then, Vitiate abruptly stops the war, proposes a treaty claiming seemingly-random planets, and starts the Cold War. An obscure step in his plan to complete the ritual? Makes sense, though if we look at how old Valkorion's children appear to be, they'd be getting born right around this time... coincidence?

Senya tells us that Valkorion started becoming colder and more distant as the children grew up, so we can surmise that he's splitting his attention again during this period. The assault of Sel-Makor and the final attack by the Jedi Knight take a lot out of him. His ritual is thwarted, and he is too weak to dominate another body or risk Valkorion until he's reinvigorated by Revan's plot in SoR - otherwise, he would've surely done so. He could've used the Fleet to cause the necessary deaths, but he wasn't ready to reveal its power to the galaxy yet - more on that shortly.

The events of Shadow of Revan give him the boost he needs to become active again - and he does so in spectacular fashion on Ziost, all while playing up his "evil destroyer of everything" Vitiate persona to the max. He's greatly reinvigorated, he's dealt a significant blow to the Sith Empire (which had been rapidly increasing in strength after Rise of the Hutt Cartel), and he's baited the player and their allies in one fell swoop. All of which leads inexorably to the confrontation in the throne room in the beginning of KOTFE - but why?

For this, we just have to look at the last person who ever stood up to Vitiate at anywhere near the level that the player's character did on Ziost: Revan. When Revan took a crack at him, Vitiate locked him up for centuries, picking and prodding at his mind the entire time. So we know that Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion doesn't destroy people who are a legitimate threat to him; he's fascinated by them. He entraps them, studies them, manipulates them, and corrupts them. (He did it to Vaylin, too! And Dramath!)

So, to review: Valkorion has been revitalized; he's got a tremendously powerful fleet; he's got the Republic in the weakest state it's been since the treaty of Coruscant and the Sith Empire not far behind; he's discovered a new threat that can actually take a shot at him; and he's got a wife who's left him and children that he finds deeply disappointing (see pretty much any time he ever deigns to speak to them) in line to take over his supposedly perfect society. Time to solve all of his problems at once!

He spurs his son's bloodlust and ambition by setting him and the fleet loose on the galaxy (now that they're definitely in no state to resist the fleet's power or endanger Zakuul). He lures his new enemy into a trap and captures them. He arranges his own "death", whether by the player's hand or Arcann's, and invades the player's mind. Arcann and Vaylin do exactly what he expects, which is to generally muck up the galaxy and establish themselves as tyrants in need of overthrowing. And then he arranges and guides the player in doing just that, all the while laying the groundwork for dominating their mind at the moment of their victory and commanding a newly-reshaped galaxy as a heroic liberator - an all-new experience to try out. Too bad it didn't work out for him

So, all of this leads to a perfectly reasonable question: why didn't we just come out and say this in the game?

First, we only have so much room to tell a story, so we have to pick what seems most crucial. If a detail isn't vital to understanding the plot or really entertaining or personal, then we don't have time to spend talking about it. Maybe we assessed things wrong, or aimed to cover too much ground in too little time so too much was left out - perfectly fair feedback, and something I would certainly take moving forward. But in principle, there will always be details we don't explain purely because we don't have time to do so.
Beyond that, I don't like explaining every single detail of everything anyway. I think it's boring. It's boring to write, and it's (almost always) boring to experience as a player. It's fun to read in a Wookieepedia article sometimes! But I don't think it's the job of the story to lay out every single thing (the movies certainly don't do so). Plus...
Mysteries are fun, and I like leaving at least a few things up to players to work out, theorize, or decide for themselves. Surely it's more fun to leave some things to the imagination?
Selfishly, it's good for us as writers to leave some things vague so that we can expand or change them later. For example, I never said anything about Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion's original body anywhere up above, because I think it'd be a pretty cool plot element to explore someday. Maybe we won't get around to it, maybe we will, but if it's something that we can't give a lot of love now and want to do later, I won't hesitate to leave it out so that we have room to do so. Plus, as this thread plainly demonstrates, people don't like it when you retcon past details, so if those details aren't there to retcon...
Lastly, and this is specific to this particular situation, but the only real source that could give the player all of this information directly is Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion himself. There's clearly no reason he would tell someone about a lot of these things if his goal is to seduce and destroy them, so we used more indirect means to reference them where it made sense.

So, there's my giant post about Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion and our reasons for going about it as we did. Having a reason to do something doesn't make it the right thing to do, of course, so I'm happy to hear everyone's feedback and take it in mind going forward. But, as usual, please be cool about it and be respectful to one another

Though as others have clarified, I haven't been the Lead Writer since late 2015

Kudos. THAT makes sense.

But here's the main issue. While you painted a great picture, there were NONE of those breadcrumbs to even HINT that Vitiate was more than a world eater.

Because while yes, you have that line, keep in mind also according to the previous story with the Jedi Knight, Vitiate's plan was to consume all life in the galaxy, and then become a god, creating a new galaxy with his power AND THEN trying out being a farmer, living different lives. That was the progression players were lead to believe prior to KOTFE.

And it's fine and all to say you don't want to spell everything out and love to leave some things of mystery, however in a decent mystery there are always bread crumbs left behind that when you go back and play it again you go AHA and see how it connects.

If there were some real hints other than that one line about Vitiate holding that same dissatisfaction in the vanilla game then I could buy into what you're selling here but there was none of that. The context for the farmer line had already been given in the greater purpose of the story.

What you said could certainly work however it's going to require going back and actually leaving hints of this in the vanilla game. And frankly despite your playing it up of him just putting on the show for Ziost, it just isn't convincing. That's because the way the emperor acted has been consistent all the way through Ziost.

I'm not saying that what you put out there can't work. In the context you gave everything it's certainly can. However there are not enough hints in the vanilla game that point to any sort of that being a possibility.

Let's be frank for a minute. The original development team never intended for the emperor to go down the path that was chosen for him in Knights of the Fallen Empire. That team has long since been replaced with a different team for the most part. The new team has taken the story in directions that are different than what the original creators had intended which is why much of some of these stories revolving around the emperor come across disjointed from the original game.

I understand creative changes happen and teams can come and go as well as people, but respect to the original Source material is a must if you want to write a quality story for the game. Therefore if you are planning on taking the game in a different and unexpected direction that requires some leg work put into the vanilla part of the game to care for where you are taking it better context as you are going in the direction the creators of the original levels 1 through 50 stories never intended.

Again I am not saying that you have to stick to their original Vision but you have to give the players enough bread crumbs to lead us willingly into the direction you want to take us and not by dragging us kicking and screaming there and blame the plot inconsistencies on "mystery".

Edited July 1, 2017 by ZionHalcyon

HKtheindomitable · July 1, 2017

Hey, that's the line I was going to quote!

Since Valkorion is one of the biggest discussion points lately, and it's been a while so I feel like it's free range to discuss, I'll just lay out everything we had in mind for Vitiate/Valkorion and y'all can have something concrete to discuss and/or kick me about

**HEAVY SPOILERS BELOW**

Centuries before our story begins, Tenebrae becomes Vitiate, becomes Emperor of the Sith, and leads the survivors of the Sith into exile to Dromund Kaas. He rules directly for many years.

As years go by, he becomes more and more dissatisfied with the Sith Empire he's created. He finds himself increasingly distanced from the Sith philosophy that first brought him to power and sees it as a dead end (as he expresses several times in KOTFE/KOTET) and, with the immense power at his disposal, begins striking out in search of something better. This is when his "long periods of silence" begin.

He discovers Zakuul, which is in a comparatively primitive state (by Star Wars tech standards, anyway) and dominates Valkorion, as he describes in KOTET Chapter 2. He learns the ancient legends of the gods, of the Eternal Fleet, etc, and investigates them with his considerabe resources. By this point, he has certainly already started the collection of rare and powerful technologies and artifacts that we find in the Arcanum, his vault on Nathema, etc. He (or perhaps agents working for him, such as the Servants) finds the Eternal Fleet disabled in deep space and is able to seize control of it (based on how ARIES talks, we can be fairly sure that neither Valkorion nor his agents ever visited Iokath itself).

The technology of the Fleet helps him raise Zakuul still further. In his Valkorion persona, he constructs a more stable society that he finds more interesting, one that has more potential to let him explore different experiences for centuries to come (his quote above and his many claims of Zakuul being the bestest thing ever). So now, he just needs to ensure that he'll live forever, and that nothing else will threaten his new creation. The ritual (the one the Jedi Knight ultimately stops) will serve both purposes, so he sets that plan in motion, kicking off the Great Galactic War between the Sith Empire and the Republic. (I don't think it's much of a stretch to believe that he could avoid destroying Zakuul, which is waaaay out at the outer edge of the galaxy, when using a ritual that he himself is creating over many, many years, but that should've been something we at least let Jedi Knight players ask.)

Then, Vitiate abruptly stops the war, proposes a treaty claiming seemingly-random planets, and starts the Cold War. An obscure step in his plan to complete the ritual? Makes sense, though if we look at how old Valkorion's children appear to be, they'd be getting born right around this time... coincidence?

Senya tells us that Valkorion started becoming colder and more distant as the children grew up, so we can surmise that he's splitting his attention again during this period. The assault of Sel-Makor and the final attack by the Jedi Knight take a lot out of him. His ritual is thwarted, and he is too weak to dominate another body or risk Valkorion until he's reinvigorated by Revan's plot in SoR - otherwise, he would've surely done so. He could've used the Fleet to cause the necessary deaths, but he wasn't ready to reveal its power to the galaxy yet - more on that shortly.

The events of Shadow of Revan give him the boost he needs to become active again - and he does so in spectacular fashion on Ziost, all while playing up his "evil destroyer of everything" Vitiate persona to the max. He's greatly reinvigorated, he's dealt a significant blow to the Sith Empire (which had been rapidly increasing in strength after Rise of the Hutt Cartel), and he's baited the player and their allies in one fell swoop. All of which leads inexorably to the confrontation in the throne room in the beginning of KOTFE - but why?

For this, we just have to look at the last person who ever stood up to Vitiate at anywhere near the level that the player's character did on Ziost: Revan. When Revan took a crack at him, Vitiate locked him up for centuries, picking and prodding at his mind the entire time. So we know that Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion doesn't destroy people who are a legitimate threat to him; he's fascinated by them. He entraps them, studies them, manipulates them, and corrupts them. (He did it to Vaylin, too! And Dramath!)

So, to review: Valkorion has been revitalized; he's got a tremendously powerful fleet; he's got the Republic in the weakest state it's been since the treaty of Coruscant and the Sith Empire not far behind; he's discovered a new threat that can actually take a shot at him; and he's got a wife who's left him and children that he finds deeply disappointing (see pretty much any time he ever deigns to speak to them) in line to take over his supposedly perfect society. Time to solve all of his problems at once!

He spurs his son's bloodlust and ambition by setting him and the fleet loose on the galaxy (now that they're definitely in no state to resist the fleet's power or endanger Zakuul). He lures his new enemy into a trap and captures them. He arranges his own "death", whether by the player's hand or Arcann's, and invades the player's mind. Arcann and Vaylin do exactly what he expects, which is to generally muck up the galaxy and establish themselves as tyrants in need of overthrowing. And then he arranges and guides the player in doing just that, all the while laying the groundwork for dominating their mind at the moment of their victory and commanding a newly-reshaped galaxy as a heroic liberator - an all-new experience to try out. Too bad it didn't work out for him

So, all of this leads to a perfectly reasonable question: why didn't we just come out and say this in the game?

First, we only have so much room to tell a story, so we have to pick what seems most crucial. If a detail isn't vital to understanding the plot or really entertaining or personal, then we don't have time to spend talking about it. Maybe we assessed things wrong, or aimed to cover too much ground in too little time so too much was left out - perfectly fair feedback, and something I would certainly take moving forward. But in principle, there will always be details we don't explain purely because we don't have time to do so.
Beyond that, I don't like explaining every single detail of everything anyway. I think it's boring. It's boring to write, and it's (almost always) boring to experience as a player. It's fun to read in a Wookieepedia article sometimes! But I don't think it's the job of the story to lay out every single thing (the movies certainly don't do so). Plus...
Mysteries are fun, and I like leaving at least a few things up to players to work out, theorize, or decide for themselves. Surely it's more fun to leave some things to the imagination?
Selfishly, it's good for us as writers to leave some things vague so that we can expand or change them later. For example, I never said anything about Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion's original body anywhere up above, because I think it'd be a pretty cool plot element to explore someday. Maybe we won't get around to it, maybe we will, but if it's something that we can't give a lot of love now and want to do later, I won't hesitate to leave it out so that we have room to do so. Plus, as this thread plainly demonstrates, people don't like it when you retcon past details, so if those details aren't there to retcon...
Lastly, and this is specific to this particular situation, but the only real source that could give the player all of this information directly is Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion himself. There's clearly no reason he would tell someone about a lot of these things if his goal is to seduce and destroy them, so we used more indirect means to reference them where it made sense.

So, there's my giant post about Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion and our reasons for going about it as we did. Having a reason to do something doesn't make it the right thing to do, of course, so I'm happy to hear everyone's feedback and take it in mind going forward. But, as usual, please be cool about it and be respectful to one another

Though as others have clarified, I haven't been the Lead Writer since late 2015

Gratitude: Thanks for posting this. It has been so difficult for myself and others to try to explain the story.

Observation: I find it interesting how many completely missed this stuff. It really is obvious. Some will replay KotFE and kick themselves when they realize just how obvious it is.

Theory: I can only assume that many meatbags went in with the attitude of "They don't know what they're doing, so if one thing doesn't make sense, then none of it does!" (or something to that effect).

Statement: If one steps back and tries to put it all together, removing all bias about anything, it's easy to understand and put together. Playing it several times and not skipping each time helps too.

Acknowledgement: I can fully understand that if one plays parts of it here and there with large gaps of time between playing, one can completely miss everything.

Clarification: My point is this: This post is a sigh of relief to those that did pick up on all of this (whether right away, or after playing it a few times) and attempted to help those that didn't, make sense of it. Now we can link them to your post instead. It's nice to see some of those that didn't get it understand it now and appreciate it more. Thank you so so much for this post.

(Yup, I'm an evil selfish being with a sense of superiority. But what do you expect from an assassination droid that is perfectly constructed and far superior to any meatbag?)

Is it wrong that, revisiting SoR, made me think what the hell went wrong w KotFE?

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