The Community Seer/Corruption Challenge...

[Bristol]

Mr. Kanneg,

 

After Eric dropped the bomb on Seer Sages and Corruption Sorcerers here, there has been a somewhat-civilized conversation back and forth for nearly 40 pages at last count.

 

How I parse the thread is this:

 

The PvP community loves the change and the PvE community despises it.

 

 

As a PvE Seer Sage, I absolutely, positively, without a doubt abhor the changes as laid out. Apparently, PvP is completely ruined by leaving the Seer and Corruption Advanced Classes as is. On the flip side of your planned decimation of my favorite class will see a Seer/Corruption in PvE become a horrid class to PvE with.

 

I welcome a challenge and will trudge on with my neutered Seer if, in the vein of accepting challenges, you and your team live-streaming either an 8M HM Explosive Conflict in maximum full 236 gear with at least 1 gimped Seer Sage or Corruption Sorcerer and/or 8M NiM Dread Palace in maximum full 242 gear, again with at least 1 hamstrung Seer Sage or Corruption Sorcerer as the healer. Ideally, afterwards, you would also make available the combat logs for each person on the team so that the Seer/Corruption community can either (a) whimper in our own personal pitty pools as we wish we were only half as good at playing our classes as your development team, or (b) shout from the rooftops that I TOLD YOU THAT YOU OVER-NUKED MY FAVORITE CLASS!!!

 

I have dropped the gauntlet sir, and await to test the mettle of the one who valiantly accepts the challenge.

 

 

PS: If you're still feeling generous, maybe the following week, live-stream a Seer Sage doing KotFE Chapter 1 on Veteran Mode, I'll even let you use a level 50 companion and the best gear that you can get from drops during both the KotFE and KotET stories.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Bristol

[Rob_Knight]

Mr. Kanneg,

 

After Eric dropped the bomb on Seer Sages and Corruption Sorcerers here, there has been a somewhat-civilized conversation back and forth for nearly 40 pages at last count.

 

How I parse the thread is this:

 

The PvP community loves the change and the PvE community despises it.

 

 

As a PvE Seer Sage, I absolutely, positively, without a doubt abhor the changes as laid out. Apparently, PvP is completely ruined by leaving the Seer and Corruption Advanced Classes as is. On the flip side of your planned decimation of my favorite class will see a Seer/Corruption in PvE become a horrid class to PvE with.

 

I welcome a challenge and will trudge on with my neutered Seer if, in the vein of accepting challenges, you and your team live-streaming either an 8M HM Explosive Conflict in maximum full 236 gear with at least 1 gimped Seer Sage or Corruption Sorcerer and/or 8M NiM Temple of Sacrifice in maximum full 242 gear, again with at least 1 hamstrung Seer Sage or Corruption Sorcerer as the healer. Ideally, afterwards, you would also make available the combat logs for each person on the team so that the Seer/Corruption community can either (a) whimper in our own personal pitty pools as we wish we were only half as good at playing our classes as your development team, or (b) shout from the rooftops that I TOLD YOU THAT YOU OVER-NUKED MY FAVORITE CLASS!!!

 

I have dropped the gauntlet sir, and await to test the mettle of the one who valiantly accepts the challenge.

 

Could not agree more my fellow sage/sorcerer. i prefer the class. i have made my disgust know to the devs via private message and open post. I could name everything wrong with the post about class balance that was sent from the combat team and the post about the healing changes . i have found that it does not matter. There are a lot of clueless (insert insult here) individuals that work on thsi game. i have stuck it out way to long. already canceled sub. been going to starter planets and giving away money to random players. That way the new player have can buy something nice on their way to the same realization i have about this game - well maybe (i have seen the "new" level of quality in the new players lately and WOW. This game may be for them.

PS Will still come to the forums from time to time to get a good laugh at the changes that they keep instituting until i get tired of laughing.

Take care fellow Sagers/Sorcerers

[Chelz]

You guys just start playing Sage/Sorc healer's or something? They have been nerfing us for 5 years. This is nothing new for us. Although I will admit that we have had it pretty good for a year and a half or so, although you had to know this was coming, no? That sage/sorc nerf train is never late!

 

I can only speak for myself when I say this but I could care less how they nerf them. I will adapt. 85% of this game imo comes down to your skill with you spec and has nothing at all to do with the gear you have on or the nerfs/buffs they implement. So stop complaining and adapt.

[Quraswren]

I find hte changes to be appalling.

 

Spending all that time getting my sage to 300. Spending that time gearing my sage well beyond 300 and doing the bulk of all that while PVE. Now I have to take the blunt end of the nerf bat 8+ months later because of bw's incompetence when the changed things this expansion.

 

We're supposed to trust them in the data they collect when this is what it brings 8+ months down the road? What a waste.

 

Now, because of pvp, that time spent is turned into a joke and a waste. Because of pvp, I know have to deal with bw's overhanded nerfs making it a complete waste of time to continue on with that character.

 

I'm sure bw or others will just say, deal with it or play another toon. Sorry, the sage has always been my main from the beginning and so the one character I play on takes a massive hit to abilities because of pvp making me shelve that one toon.

 

Thats a big disappointment. Big enough to make me second guess this game.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Quraswren

[Bristol]

You guys just start playing Sage/Sorc healer's or something? They have been nerfing us for 5 years. This is nothing new for us. Although I will admit that we have had it pretty good for a year and a half or so, although you had to know this was coming, no? That sage/sorc nerf train is never late!

 

I can only speak for myself when I say this but I could care less how they nerf them. I will adapt. 85% of this game imo comes down to your skill with you spec and has nothing at all to do with the gear you have on or the nerfs/buffs they implement. So stop complaining and adapt.

 

The first character that I ever made and the one that I played most of my time in beta with was a Seer Sage. It was only due to too many healers in my launch guild that my 1st 50 was a Guardian, but my 2nd was a Seer Sage and after most guildies quit in the subsequent months, I happily made my primary my Seer Sage and it has remained that way ever since.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Bristol

[dscount]

SORC Heals myself and I've never given up on my main. Even most of my ALTS are Sage/Sorc. I'm very concerned they are walking into 5.3 with a LOT of very unpopular changes to every class (most of them). This will not go well when it comes to folks wanting to stick around if all the hard work doing CXP is wasted.

 

I'm not happy about the changes they propose. I can handle a 5% or maybe even a 10% change, but if this is to balance out PVP related issues then they need to tweek the TTK and leverage the existing PVP settings.

 

My bigger issue - I spent a LOT of cartel coins to get my CXP to 300 and absolutely refuse to change my class to FOTM. I'll stop playing instead and come back in a year when they "FIX" this stupidity. I've a month left on my TEMP SUB since I came back long enough to check on the game. (Not impressed) They apparently have not learned that making massive unpopular changes is not a good idea. The entire 5.x CXP and "RNG is exciting" already cost them a LOT of sub's and we barely have enough players online to play right now.

 

Years ago they promised they would fix Melee unfriendly fights and actually TEST them. Never did see that Ravengers fight with mostly MARA fighters happen. (Looking at Mr. Musco) I'd love to see them do a run with DUAL Sage/Sorc healers on Ravengers, ToS and even any NiM S&V/DP/DF/EC for good measure. Using these changes. Go ahead - gear up with 242 fully AUG'd out even. I want to see them do this.

 

Right now Daily SM OPS barely QUE pop - when they do I'm finding myself surrounded by complete morons (most the time) that can't even follow simple instructions (STAND HERE on Giant Holo when your color is on floor). I'm not only HEALING myself out of FORCE, but having to DPS as well just to clear a simple SM Operation. Now I'm having my nuts cut off because someone else can't kill me in PVP (Which I don't play due to the sheer lack of balanced teams - Not players, but matchmaking of balanced teams).

Edited June 26, 2017 by dscount

[Bristol]

With the aid of parsely.io, I just complied some Effective Healing per Second (eHPS) numbers for all of the Hard Mode Operations.

 

Google Sheet with Bulk Data

 

Summary of Highest eHPS per healing advanced Class:

Medicine Operative: 18,242 eHPS (8M HM Malaphar [TOS]) {100.00%}

Bodyguard Mercenary: 16,751 eHPS (8M HM Nefra, Who Bars the Way [DF]) {-8.17%}

Corruption Sorcerer: 15,823 eHPS (8M HM Nefra, Who Bars the Way [DF]) {-13.26%}

 

Summary of Highest Total HPS per healing advanced Class:

Medicine Operative: 22,984 HPS (8M HM Malaphar [TOS]) {100.00%}

Corruption Sorcerer: 19,399 HPS (8M HM Nefra, Who Bars the Way [DF]) {-15.27%}

Bodyguard Mercenary: 18,556 HPS (8M HM Nefra, Who Bars the Way [DF]) {-19.27%}

 

.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Bristol

[Macarrin]

I have two sages I'm fairly active with, one a seer and the other balance. The dps sage was about to become a seer himself, because I felt that as a healer I'd be of more benefit to my team, but I'm the first to admit that I am not the best at sage healing. For some reason I can't do as well as I can on my commandos. Frankly, if they're making them even harder for the average nub to use, I'm out of luck - and options. I don't want to trash them, they're my lowest parsing dps toons, and soon I won't be able to heal my way out of a wet paper bag with them. I suppose the only option left is to use them for crafting and farming. I guess it's a relief, since that's two less toons out of my 38 70's to worry about gearing up.

[VirtualMorrigan]

Not me. I'm done with this game if this goes live. I like being on heals and detest Merc/Op as a playstyle. I'm definitely not going to jump to another spec, bend over backwards and grind equiopment again just because BW nerfed my group content class to the ground. I've honestly had it.

 

"Listening to the players" my arse.

 

You don't have to be subscribed to rp.

[Nightblazer]

Makes me wonder if the rest of the healing disciplines will all get nerfed as well.

[kodrac]

So if there was already one thread was there a need for this one?

[RagnarAugustus]

You guys just start playing Sage/Sorc healer's or something? They have been nerfing us for 5 years. This is nothing new for us. Although I will admit that we have had it pretty good for a year and a half or so, although you had to know this was coming, no? That sage/sorc nerf train is never late!

 

I can only speak for myself when I say this but I could care less how they nerf them. I will adapt. 85% of this game imo comes down to your skill with you spec and has nothing at all to do with the gear you have on or the nerfs/buffs they implement. So stop complaining and adapt.

 

I've been a Sorc main for raiding since back in the 2.0 days and we've been nerfed time and again solely based on PVP complaints. It's time they stop nerfing Sorcs\Sages and find a way to balance PVP seperately from PVE. I've adapted to each and every nerf\change - even when other sorc corruption raiders thew in the towl and switch classes - but I'm at the end of my rope, when does the PVP community have to adapt instead of merely demanding nerf after nerf?

 

We're finally getting new and frankly challenging HM raid content on Iokath so a solid healer is very much needed. Let's stop the nerfing madness.

[Stellarcrusade]

 

The PvP community loves the change and the PvE community despises it.

 

 

The PvP community does not love the change, only snipers/mercs do. And if people know it or not yet, it will be devestating for PvP balance because only snipers/mercs will really be viable for pvp anymore, without any healers the classes that actually need healing will not be viable either. After the intial smoke clears, it will be funny to see PvP implode.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Stellarcrusade

[VirtualMorrigan]

And, as expected, not another word from Bioware after the post announcing the nerfs.

 

Such a fine, shining example of tansparency, improved communication and working with the community.

[Bonzenaattori]

Mr. Kanneg,

 

After Eric dropped the bomb on Seer Sages and Corruption Sorcerers here, there has been a somewhat-civilized conversation back and forth for nearly 40 pages at last count.

 

How I parse the thread is this:

 

The PvP community loves the change and the PvE community despises it.

 

 

As a PvE Seer Sage, I absolutely, positively, without a doubt abhor the changes as laid out. Apparently, PvP is completely ruined by leaving the Seer and Corruption Advanced Classes as is. On the flip side of your planned decimation of my favorite class will see a Seer/Corruption in PvE become a horrid class to PvE with.

 

I welcome a challenge and will trudge on with my neutered Seer if, in the vein of accepting challenges, you and your team live-streaming either an 8M HM Explosive Conflict in maximum full 236 gear with at least 1 gimped Seer Sage or Corruption Sorcerer and/or 8M NiM Dread Palace in maximum full 242 gear, again with at least 1 hamstrung Seer Sage or Corruption Sorcerer as the healer. Ideally, afterwards, you would also make available the combat logs for each person on the team so that the Seer/Corruption community can either (a) whimper in our own personal pitty pools as we wish we were only half as good at playing our classes as your development team, or (b) shout from the rooftops that I TOLD YOU THAT YOU OVER-NUKED MY FAVORITE CLASS!!!

 

I have dropped the gauntlet sir, and await to test the mettle of the one who valiantly accepts the challenge.

 

 

PS: If you're still feeling generous, maybe the following week, live-stream a Seer Sage doing KotFE Chapter 1 on Veteran Mode, I'll even let you use a level 50 companion and the best gear that you can get from drops during both the KotFE and KotET stories.

 

Pretty sure nobody likes the changes.

So sorry your precious class is getting nerfed, I really feel for you. As a Sentinel main who has suffered losing the most in this entire game, not only functionally but also mechanically.. I can say I feel your pain.

I really hope somebody within the team has the insight to understand that they are not only nerfing the class beyond comprehension, but that they're also repeating a past mistake, which received a lot of backlash and was given terrible justification like "we feel every class does too much damage". Hopefully they'll see past their short sighted ideal of "class balance" and realize it just won't work like this

Edited July 1, 2017 by Bonzenaattori

[Volxen]

Mr. Kanneg,

 

After Eric dropped the bomb on Seer Sages and Corruption Sorcerers here, there has been a somewhat-civilized conversation back and forth for nearly 40 pages at last count.

 

How I parse the thread is this:

 

The PvP community loves the change and the PvE community despises it.

 

 

As a PvE Seer Sage, I absolutely, positively, without a doubt abhor the changes as laid out. Apparently, PvP is completely ruined by leaving the Seer and Corruption Advanced Classes as is. On the flip side of your planned decimation of my favorite class will see a Seer/Corruption in PvE become a horrid class to PvE with.

 

I welcome a challenge and will trudge on with my neutered Seer if, in the vein of accepting challenges, you and your team live-streaming either an 8M HM Explosive Conflict in maximum full 236 gear with at least 1 gimped Seer Sage or Corruption Sorcerer and/or 8M NiM Dread Palace in maximum full 242 gear, again with at least 1 hamstrung Seer Sage or Corruption Sorcerer as the healer. Ideally, afterwards, you would also make available the combat logs for each person on the team so that the Seer/Corruption community can either (a) whimper in our own personal pitty pools as we wish we were only half as good at playing our classes as your development team, or (b) shout from the rooftops that I TOLD YOU THAT YOU OVER-NUKED MY FAVORITE CLASS!!!

 

I have dropped the gauntlet sir, and await to test the mettle of the one who valiantly accepts the challenge.

 

 

PS: If you're still feeling generous, maybe the following week, live-stream a Seer Sage doing KotFE Chapter 1 on Veteran Mode, I'll even let you use a level 50 companion and the best gear that you can get from drops during both the KotFE and KotET stories.

 

There are plenty of PVPers (myself included) that are adamantly opposed to the sage/sorc healing nerfs that are coming. As a progression raider and a PVPer, I think these nerfs will be absolutely devastating to both aspects of the game. I think the nerfs will lead to a shortage of healers in both the PVE/raiding and PVP communities. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people in the PVP community that think they should be able to kill everyone instantly, which is why they are celebrating these nerfs.

 

The PVP community has always been very divided on this issue. There are those that believe that only DPS, burst, and focus fire should matter in warzones. And there are those that believe that each role in the trinity (tank, healer, and DPS) should be equally viable in warzones. Unfortunately the former group got what they wanted with the 5.3 nerfs.

[VirtualMorrigan]

Unfortunately, there are a lot of people in the PVP community that think they should be able to kill everyone instantly, which is why they are celebrating these nerfs.

 

Ah, just wait until they are the ones to be killed instantly, because no one bothers to run a healer and heal them, and the'll chnage their tune. Then of course we'll get the whining about population decline in PVP, of course, that no one can explain...

[jagertharn]

With the aid of parsely.io, I just complied some Effective Healing per Second (eHPS) numbers for all of the Hard Mode Operations.

 

Google Sheet with Bulk Data

 

Summary of Highest eHPS per healing advanced Class:

Medicine Operative: 18,242 eHPS (8M HM Malaphar [TOS]) {100.00%}

Bodyguard Mercenary: 16,751 eHPS (8M HM Nefra, Who Bars the Way [DF]) {-8.17%}

Corruption Sorcerer: 15,823 eHPS (8M HM Nefra, Who Bars the Way [DF]) {-13.26%}

 

Summary of Highest Total HPS per healing advanced Class:

Medicine Operative: 22,984 HPS (8M HM Malaphar [TOS]) {100.00%}

Corruption Sorcerer: 19,399 HPS (8M HM Nefra, Who Bars the Way [DF]) {-15.27%}

Bodyguard Mercenary: 18,556 HPS (8M HM Nefra, Who Bars the Way [DF]) {-19.27%}

 

.

 

You do realize that Parsley doesn't differentiate between hard mode and nightmare with operations? And most, if not all first bosses are solo healable, so the numbers are inflated. Then you also have to take into account group raid awareness. Are they standing in stuff they aren't supposed to? If yes, then the healer will have boosted hps/ehps numbers.

[mike_carton]

Eric, Keith,

 

Any response to this, in the new spirit of increased communication?

[VirtualMorrigan]

Eric, Keith,

 

Any response to this, in the new spirit of increased communication?

 

Good one.

 

I think our response will be the implied middle finger in the patch notes.

[merovejec]

Eric, Keith,

 

Any response to this, in the new spirit of increased communication?

 

They wont reply to this.

Edited July 11, 2017 by merovejec

[Khiriath]

Mr. Kanneg,

 

After Eric dropped the bomb on Seer Sages and Corruption Sorcerers here, there has been a somewhat-civilized conversation back and forth for nearly 40 pages at last count.

 

How I parse the thread is this:

 

The PvP community loves the change and the PvE community despises it.

 

 

As a PvE Seer Sage, I absolutely, positively, without a doubt abhor the changes as laid out. Apparently, PvP is completely ruined by leaving the Seer and Corruption Advanced Classes as is. On the flip side of your planned decimation of my favorite class will see a Seer/Corruption in PvE become a horrid class to PvE with.

 

I welcome a challenge and will trudge on with my neutered Seer if, in the vein of accepting challenges, you and your team live-streaming either an 8M HM Explosive Conflict in maximum full 236 gear with at least 1 gimped Seer Sage or Corruption Sorcerer and/or 8M NiM Dread Palace in maximum full 242 gear, again with at least 1 hamstrung Seer Sage or Corruption Sorcerer as the healer. Ideally, afterwards, you would also make available the combat logs for each person on the team so that the Seer/Corruption community can either (a) whimper in our own personal pitty pools as we wish we were only half as good at playing our classes as your development team, or (b) shout from the rooftops that I TOLD YOU THAT YOU OVER-NUKED MY FAVORITE CLASS!!!

 

I have dropped the gauntlet sir, and await to test the mettle of the one who valiantly accepts the challenge.

 

 

PS: If you're still feeling generous, maybe the following week, live-stream a Seer Sage doing KotFE Chapter 1 on Veteran Mode, I'll even let you use a level 50 companion and the best gear that you can get from drops during both the KotFE and KotET stories.

 

Nope. I want to see them do HM EC in max 230 gear and NiM DP in 236 gear as that is the recommended gear for those raids. Also I want to see it with two seer/corruption sages. Truth is until every class can clear all content at recommended gear level PvE is simply broken.

[Severith]

I think there has been a containment breach somewhere in the Sage/Sorc subforum. It was bound to happen though. Not even Hoover Dam could old back all these tears.

 

Zero skill needed. Zero resource management needed. Always the preferred class for operation healing. Always the preferred class for pvp healing. Something had to give. If the sage sorc community had actually cared about how OP their heals were, you could of had a voice in how they were nerfed. The vast majority of complainers never asked for nerfs for sorcs before they were announced, and suddenly now they care.

 

Bristol is the OP. Here are his posts in SWTOR. http://www.swtor.com/community/search.php?searchid=855826

 

Not one of his posst asking for a sorc nerf prior to the 5.3 Corruption nerfs, but suddenly he cares about balance. Suddenly it's important to have the right things nerfed. It's like that with 99% of the sorcs complaining about the nerfs. You guys with all of your influx of ideas for sorc balancing are a day late and a dollar short.

 

The sad thing is some of them were probably good ideas, probably better ideas than the incoming nerfs. But you didn't care about SWTOR as a whole. You only cared about your own little part of it. You only spoke up when you thought that little part was threatened.

 

You enjoyed the ride while it was there. Either pay the toll or get on a different ride. In the meantime, contain your tears in the Sage/Sorc subforum please.

[Khiriath]

Eric, Keith,

 

Any response to this, in the new spirit of increased communication?

 

Starting to feel like the new spirit of communication is that they talk at us more, while talking to us is still equally lacking.

[Bristol]

Hey folks,

 

...

 

• Corruption/Seer nerfs went too far and may also negatively impact DPS - Admittedly those two Disciplines were substantially overperforming and will receive the most significant nerfs in 5.3. But, we will watch their performance closely and make changes if we’ve gone too far. The same is true of the impact on "Sorc/Sage bubble" for DPS. We’ll change it or give them other defensive options to compensate if needed.

 

...

 

When we start talking about 5.4 changes, we will work to do better in keeping the conversation alive around Class balance. This way we can make sure everyone has a clear understanding of all concerns/feedback going into the update.

 

Thanks everyone!

 

-eric

 

"substantially overperforming"

Fully-Qualified supporting data, or it didn't happen.