Class Changes: Corruption Sorcerer / Seer Consular

[Lupolus]

Well, I have a Commando and Scoundrel leveled up to 70, but no Sorcerer (and no Sage) yet, so I won't complain.

[IndorilDovah]

After being surprised by the class change I took some time to think about the numbers.

So today I did some quick caluclation

To do a fair comparsion I removed all Equipment, buffs and stims and wrote down the min-max healing values and Cooldowns from the skill descriptions.

All 3 are level 70.

I admit that the ssumptions regarding distance and clustering are rather unlikely.

 

For the sake of comparing max healing output I based the calculations on the skills, that they heal for the full amount and that there were 8 targets inside the AoE area.

I added my numbers inside the parentesis

 

Aoe

Procced Roaming Mend 24.4K (4406-6105 Hp healed. Bounces 4 times,)[ 15 sec CD]

Kolto Missile 23.4K (1156-2906, 8 targets) [6 Sec CD] {Ignored the Kolto residue that HoT}

Kolto Waves 12.4 K (4690, 8 targets,3 sec channeling) [10 sec CD]

Revivification 3.8K (4787, 8 targets, 10 sec HoT) [ 12 Sec CD]

 

Channeled:

Inneverate: 3,7K (8965, 2,4 sec channeling) [9 sec CD]

Progressive Scan 3,3-8.3K (8029, 2.4 sec channeling, heals nearby for 2007 per tic. Final tic allows 4 to be healed) [15 sec CD]

Diagnostic Scan 0,74K (1563 , 2.1 sec channeling) [0 sec CD]

 

Since the CoolDowns are rather different I also added Healing/minute

 

Aoe

Procced Roaming Mend 97.6k (4 uses)

Kolto Missile 234.8k (10 uses)

Kolto Waves 74.5K (6 uses)

Revivification 153,2K (4 uses, the fifth would be reduntant)

 

Channeled

Inneverate 59,7K

Progressive Scan 32-80.2K

Diagnostic Scan 44K

 

In conclusion Roaming Mend needs a nerf. As an instant cast it's far to efficient.

Kolto Missiles will probably get a 20% nerf too and possibly an increased CD

And Since Innervate after the nerf will be around 3k I imagine Progressive Scan will get one too

 

I had a bit of problems comparing the others skills due to my unfamiliarity with both Mercenary and Operative healing.

If there are any misstakes with my calculations or you have some insights in how the other skills flow.

It's a bit hard to jusdge HPS with for instance Dark Heal since I never hardcast it nor do I have any Idea how to judge the instant cast lesser healing skills

[Silense]

Hey folks,

 

Below you will find the upcoming changes for Corruption and Seer Disciplines coming in 5.3.

 

These changes will undoubtedly look and feel harsh to players who have been healing on their Sorcerers / Sages for a long time.

 

 

If you have to put a disclaimer on your changes you should stop and think about what you're doing. At its core bioware is a service industry, and the customer is #1. If your changes are going to anger your customers, even though the changes might make the game more balanced, you need to find a more creative way to balance the game.

 

For example if healing is too strong in pvp add a debuff to incoming healing while in warzones and arenas. This would lower target hps numbers without actually targeting specific classes. If the debuff were to cause certain classes to be lower than the target hps number they can get buffs to adjust. The same can be done in pve by adjusting boss outgoing damage.

 

This may seem like a complicated way to do balance changes, and it is, but the customer is #1 and keeping your customer paying and coming back to play more is worth the extra challenge.

 

As a side note, but a very important side note, I would recommend using a method of analytics called quadrant theory. For example you have categories of players: New players, returning players, casual players, and veteran players. When making any change to the game or when you're adding new content to the game ask yourselves how the proposed changes affect each group of players. The you can weigh the cost/benefit for each change and decide if you wish to move forward.

[ViktorAres]

It's a bad customer-relations strategy to just nerf classes people are used to playing.

 

Instead, they should have buffed all the disadvantaged classes to the top tier, thereby making PVP a bit faster and more interesting, and thereby counteracting the high HPS at the same time.

 

Nerfing the healing and static barrier of the dps sorc, which is already the weakest class in both armor and damage, is really adding insult to injury. That's the reason I've cancelled my subscription.

Edited June 23, 2017 by ViktorAres

[Zolxtren]

It's a bad customer-relations strategy to just nerf classes people are used to playing.

 

Instead, they should have buffed all the disadvantaged classes to the top tier, thereby making PVP a bit faster and more interesting, and thereby counteracting the high HPS at the same time.

 

Nerfing the healing and static barrier of the dps sorc, which is already the weakest class in both armor and damage, is really adding insult to injury. That's the reason I've cancelled my subscription.

 

thats reeeeeeealy bad thinking.....

 

imagen if everyone would be buffed to Merc level..... you would not even need healers and still nobody would die ever lol.... that would be utterly broken....

 

nerfs are needed the prob is when they nerf tooo hard and NERF THINGS THAT SHOULD BE BUFFED BECAUSE IT EFFECTS ANOTHER SPEC IN THE CLASS THAT IS UTTERLY WEAK !!!!!!!!!

Edited June 23, 2017 by Zolxtren

[ViktorAres]

thats reeeeeeealy bad thinking.....

 

imagen if everyone would be buffed to Merc level..... you would not even need healers and still nobody would die ever lol.... that would be utterly broken....

 

nerfs are needed the prob is when they nerf tooo hard and NERF THINGS THAT SHOULD BE BUFFED BECAUSE IT EFFECTS ANOTHER SPEC IN THE CLASS THAT IS UTTERLY WEAK !!!!!!!!!

What? No. Ranked PVP is full of mostly mercs, snipers and operatives. Everyone dies reasonably fast. The high damage makes up for the strong DCDs.

Edited June 23, 2017 by ViktorAres

[BrendanJCavanagh]

Hi Keith and Eric,

 

Thanks for the increased communication, increased insight into your methodology, and responsiveness to comments. I read that you're after constructive feedback on the changes, so here goes ...

 

Could you please explain why you're nerfing the survivability of the Sorc / Sage DPS disciplines as a side effect of these changes?

 

I've read about three alternative approaches to nerfing Corruption / Seer HPS while avoiding, minimizing or offsetting the impact on the Sorc / Sage DPS disciplines. In my view, it's necessary to consider alternatives because the two DPS disciplines are objectively underperforming.

 

1. Nerf only Corruption / Seer skills

 

You could nerf Corruption / Seer HPS by changing skills only within their discipline tree. Without knowing more about the research you've done, this appears to be a better targeted way of achieving your goal. Did you consider this approach? If you decided not to proceed this way, could you please explain why not?

 

2. Nerf healing skills but not defensive skills

 

You could nerf Sorc / Sage healing skills while leaving defensive skills unchanged. In other words, leave Static Barrier / Force Armor as is. This approach appears to be more consistent with your general philosophy of changing DPS and HPS before survivability as expressed in the 'How Class Balance Happens' thread (see extract below). Did you consider this approach? If you decided not to proceed this way, could you please explain why not?

We are first focusing on the damage and healing output for all Classes before getting too carried away with utility changes. This is because opinions about where a given Discipline stands among the pack can be clouded by high or low damage or healing output without anyone even realizing it. That is not to say we won’t tweak a utility here or there, but before we go making massive changes to a class’s utility toolkit, we want to make sure the damage or healing they can put out is on target and relatively similar to other Disciplines in their grouping. Once we are happy with the damage output, we can start adjusting utilities to give those that need it a boost and others that are too powerful a reduction.

 

3. Buff DPS at the same time as nerfing survivability

 

Both of the Sorc / Sage DPS disciplines appear to be underperforming the target DPS you established for them in the 'How Class Balance Happens' thread according to player modeling (http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=847112, http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=918622) and player parses (http://parsely.io/parser/stats).

 

It appears from the 'Discussion Topic: Class Changes This Summer' thread that Madness / Balance is scheduled for a DPS buff in Game Update 5.3, but it's currently unclear whether Lightning / Telekinetics will receive a DPS buff at all. If there's no other way to nerf Corruption / Seer HPS than to nerf Sorc / Sage survivability at the same time, have you considered offsetting this with a further buff to Sorc / Sage DPS, including a buff to Lightning / Telekinetics DPS in Game Update 5.3? matthobbit elaborated on this:

• Lightning/TK needs a buff to make it competitive again. There are already built-in limitations to ranged burst specs. Lightning/TK has a lot of channeled DPS that is vulnerable to interrupts, knockbacks, and stuns. There is ramp-up time for DPS and target switching: thundering blast needs affliction. Crushing darkness needs lightning flash to be efficient, and the crushing darkness DOT needs time to deal its full damage. Shock doesn't do enough damage to be worth casting without crushing darkness on the target. Chain lightning is only worth casting as a proc from thundering blast.
  
• I know a madness/balance buff is in the works so that's encouraging.
  

 

Thanks again for the increased communication, increased insight into your methodology, and responsiveness to comments. I have so much fun playing this game!

 

P.S. Obviously I play a Lightning / Telekinetics toon. However, I'm genuinely interested in why you're proposing this approach to nerfing Corruption / Seer HPS, and hoping you'll consider alternatives based on an objective look at the data.

[Volxen]

I think these nerfs will at least be toned down, because if these nerfs go live it will be disastrous for both PVE and PVP. In PVE, even highly skilled teams may struggle to kill NiM OPS bosses. And in PVP, everything will be reduced down to a DPS burst fest where healers and tanks are irrelevant, and all that matters is burst and focus fire. Tanks that aren't being healed already die WAY too fast to burst in PVP (because mitigation stats don't work properly in PVP and need to be revamped -- but that's a discussion for another topic). The only thing that has allowed tanks to actually make a difference and be relevant in PVP frankly is sage heals. So these massive nerfs to sage healers are also indirectly massive nerfs to tanks as well. My prediction is that this will completely ruin the trinity in PVP, and eventually no one will bother to a play a healer or a tank (no point in playing a tank if there are no healers) because matches will always be decided based on which team has the most burst. The lack of healers will give premades an even larger advantage over pugs than they already have, and eventually there will be less people queueing for warzones.

 

Compared to just one year ago, all of the servers -- even the harbinger -- now have light server status except for a few hours during prime time in the evening. A year ago the Harbinger used to have standard server status most of the time. And it's clear from the responses in this thread that many players from both the PVE and PVP communities are very upset with the direction of these nerfs and the overall impact they will have on the game. History has shown what happens to the population when large segments of it are displeased with the direction the game is going in. Bioware really needs to keep in mind the impact of these kinds of nerfs, because it affects far more than just the people who play sage healers. It affects everyone doing group content, PVE and PVP alike.

 

I really hope Bioware understands that actually listening to the player base is far more important than just trying to achieve a certain DPS/HPS/DTPS value for each class.

Edited June 23, 2017 by Volxen

[Manjaca]

This Nerfs are unbelivable,

 

i mean, nerfing the heals of a "Heal to Full" Class without damage ist crazy .

You know this Video Bioware Devs?

 

 

Do you ever Play a sage/sorc in pvp? Heal to full and then stay without force. The damage ist bad. The heal bubble is compared to merc or sniper heals bad. Its a self cc with small heal. Merc heal ist better and you can make damage.

2 dps specs are dead. In PVE we have the badest AOE. In PVE we have the badest dps. Madness have a bad energiy/force Managment. And now the healer spec ist dead. Im not a sage/sorc healer but this nerfs to healing are to much. 8 months of 2 dead specs in pvp and pve. Never in SWTOR there was all dps specs dead of one Class in pvp or pve. Sometime you are bad in pvp or pve but never a class is bad in both categories!! Since 3.1 you have permanent nerfed the sage/sorc. And now the heal spec is dead.

Since begining of Shadow of Revan you nerfed the Lightning sorc within 1 Month. But since the begining of KOTET you do nothing to help sage/sorc dps!

300+ GC Levels since begining of 5.0 are for nothing! 8 Months since 5.0 with a dps sage/sorc are a pain.

You killed this class, one of the most popular classes.

 

Sorry for my bad english. Ist not my mother language. But i Need to say this.

 

Thanks

[dscount]

LOL - I love that video.. H2F lives again in the Sorc/Sage forums.

 

Sadly - my short visit back to SWTOR appears to be over now. Was great seeing some of the new stuff, but very few of my guildmates are still around and now off in other MMO's like WOW, ESO or FF.

 

Keith/Eric - Good luck Guys. This change is going to annoy more than you think. Vested time in the CXP fiasco on a SORC/SAGE is going to turn folks off after this nerf.

[indelible]

However, Lightning / TK's damage or Pyro Pt / Plasmatech lack of survivability are considered NOT to be most in need of change. If one of you wouldn't mind a quick comment, i would be really interested in the answer!! ( As would a lot of others )

 

If you look through the dev posts, you'll notice that they said that 5.3 would be a numbers-focused patch, where the utility side of things would be worked on in August. These changes are targetted at healing Sorc. Madness is also getting a numbers pass in this patch. Lightning isn't the focus because the problems with that AC mostly rest on utilities, not raw damage numbers. Expect Lightning to get works in August, I guess.

[thetracer]

-Removed- Edited June 24, 2017 by thetracer

[Fuhrer_]

I am really happy with this. It will be great again to see people die in PVP. Nothing was more infuriating when 3 people can;t out dps heals

[thetracer]

-Removed- Edited June 24, 2017 by thetracer

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

If any DPS spec in the game should have strong self heals it should be Sorcs. I'm not a big fan of DPS with strong self-heals, but in the case of Sorcs it makes a great deal more sense given their strong connection to the force. Far from nerfing them, they should have increased their self-heals.

 

 

Ohh yeah, where is it written that only Snipers should have 35' attack range among rDPS? Give Lighting 35' range [although not the DOTs, but the straight up attacks]. The only range limitation lightning strikes in real life have is the ground! Given the level of their DPS, that would at least give them some edge and probably in and of itself be something of a DPS buff. [5' more can give them targets they couldn't otherwise reach at range. ] A lot easier to kite when you are out of gap closer range. If the DPS was high I wouldn't advocate it, but, otherwise at their projected DPS values, I don't think it would be too much. Give them some edge at least.

 

 

*** I can see it now....a month from now I'll be getting my stupid Marauder *** lite up from Lightning strike, and won't be able to leap to the caster and I'll be kicking myself in the *** for suggesting it =p

Edited June 24, 2017 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[Severith]

No, that's YOUR definition of balance that contradicts every game in existence. If DPS could "shut down" the healer the way you describe it, what is the point of healer? To stand limp while other DPSes finish the job so they can join the one that "shut healer down"? That makes the healer burden for a team and no value at all.

 

The point of a healer, in a 4x4 for example, is to heal the group. He should only be able to do so when he gets support from the group, in the form of stuns, peels, guards and taunts. If there is a good melee dps on them, and the healer doesn't get support from their team, then the healer's group heals should either be extremely limited or even non-existant. Currently Sorcs don't need teamwork to be effective in a team setting, but they do end up practically immortal of their team supports them

 

Right now, in 5.2, two good sorc healers effectively shuts down an objective in a wz. If both teams have multiple sorc healers, it makes a healer locked situation which is completely miserable to play in for everyone.

 

That healer locked situation, which constantly pops up, has cost SWTOR more subs over the years than all these "Going to unsub now that healing sorcs are nerfed" by a factor that's probably well into the hundreds. It's why most people who love mmo pvp don't play SWTOR.

 

At some point, SWTOR has to be acknowledged as a game, and that games should be fun, and should reward both persistence and skill. Currently Sorc healing violates every level of that premise. It takes no skill. It ruins the fun of the game. It makes other player's skills irrelevant.

 

These changes needed to happen for the good of the game.

[ivanhedgehog]

The point of a healer, in a 4x4 for example, is to heal the group. He should only be able to do so when he gets support from the group, in the form of stuns, peels, guards and taunts. If there is a good melee dps on them, and the healer doesn't get support from their team, then the healer's group heals should either be extremely limited or even non-existant. Currently Sorcs don't need teamwork to be effective in a team setting, but they do end up practically immortal of their team supports them

 

Right now, in 5.2, two good sorc healers effectively shuts down an objective in a wz. If both teams have multiple sorc healers, it makes a healer locked situation which is completely miserable to play in for everyone.

 

That healer locked situation, which constantly pops up, has cost SWTOR more subs over the years than all these "Going to unsub now that healing sorcs are nerfed" by a factor that's probably well into the hundreds. It's why most people who love mmo pvp don't play SWTOR.

 

At some point, SWTOR has to be acknowledged as a game, and that games should be fun, and should reward both persistence and skill. Currently Sorc healing violates every level of that premise. It takes no skill. It ruins the fun of the game. It makes other player's skills irrelevant.

 

These changes needed to happen for the good of the game.

 

melee dps takes no skill. you have armor, dcds, closers and the best damage in the game. and shouldnt the game be fun for sorc healers too? maybe set the matchmaker to only put 1 per side in a match? would that make for better match ups?

[Severith]

melee dps takes no skill. you have armor, dcds, closers and the best damage in the game. and shouldnt the game be fun for sorc healers too? maybe set the matchmaker to only put 1 per side in a match? would that make for better match ups?

 

Lost you at armor. Armor means almost nothing in pvp.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

I am really happy with this. It will be great again to see people die in PVP. Nothing was more infuriating when 3 people can;t out dps heals

 

As I recall.....the real Fuhrer enjoyed seeing people die too.

[Severith]

As I recall.....the real Fuhrer enjoyed seeing people die too.

 

Actually, Fuhrer without context simply means "guide".

 

By Godwin's Law, you're arguments are now deemed meritless.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

[LordTurin]

Ohh yeah, where is it written that only Snipers should have 35' attack range among rDPS? Give Lighting 35' range [although not the DOTs, but the straight up attacks]. The only range limitation lightning strikes in real life have is the ground! Given the level of their DPS, that would at least give them some edge and probably in and of itself be something of a DPS buff. [5' more can give them targets they couldn't otherwise reach at range. ] A lot easier to kite when you are out of gap closer range. If the DPS was high I wouldn't advocate it, but, otherwise at their projected DPS values, I don't think it would be too much. Give them some edge at least.

 

Lightning does have 35m range. Everything including dots.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

melee dps takes no skill. you have armor, dcds, closers and the best damage in the game. and shouldnt the game be fun for sorc healers too? maybe set the matchmaker to only put 1 per side in a match? would that make for better match ups?

 

Some of those melee DPS that "takes no skill"......don't have any self heals at all....so not like dcds and high damage are exactly inappropriate. DPS should have less DPS than healers than? heh

 

That said, I very much agree sorc healers [and every other kind] should have fun too. Personally, unlike Mercs and Snipers, I'm fine with Sorc heals they way they are. Is it a little much at times all the healing going on? Yeah, it is. But the blame for that is shared equally with all the healing DPS and Tanks are doing for themselves.

 

People need to remember something, especially if you are not a Merc or a Sniper, a good portion of the damage DPS do is recycled heals. Yeah, it sucks when your enemy is getting healed and you are not, but when your getting healed and your enemy isn't, I don't think I can recall many people complaining that the healers are healing them too much or that it's unfair to the other team.

 

If your team has no healers, and the other team has 2 healers, all things being equal, the team with the 2 healers get's to win.

 

Matchmaking, or, the lack there of as the case may be, is the bigger problem.

 

Furthermore, I don't think anyone would find it unreasonable of other healing specs had closerr HPS to sorc heals, I get why other healer specs may resent Sorc heals a bit, but they could bring them closer in range to each other [but not exact].

 

Cut down all the healing DPS specs are doing [except for Sorc DPS that should be their nitche] and you'd see a whole different ball game.

 

Those people that are happy about the nerf, and I'm not saying they shouldn't have been nerfed at all mind you, they're not going to be so happy about it when they suddenly find there are a lot less healers in WZs than there was before.

 

Not every class has great self heals, and in one instance no self heals at all. The nerf will effect everyone.

 

A larger portion of the DPS that Assassins, Marauders, and Juggs do compared to certain other classes is in essence, recycled heals. They will start dieing more, they will have to be more careful, their DPS will suffer for it, than we will see how happy everyone who is gloating over it will be.

 

Healers aren't healing too much. Non-healers are healing too much. And groups are only as strong as their weakest link.

Edited June 24, 2017 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Lightning does have 35m range. Everything including dots.

 

Ooooo I didn't know that. I thought only Snipers had 35'. My bad.

[FlyXan]

Have you??? So long as you took the smart util's, you can bubble yourself before FB and heal to full while standing there. Assuming your team doesn't come along to help with the attacking dps at all, which is unlikely, you then use the phase walk you SHOULD have put down, and poof, your out..... Jesus, do you guys even think this stuff through??? Think creatively..... lol

 

Yep, you clearly have no idea.

One lonely merc can destroy any sages, since Electro Net disables ALL of our kiting/escape abilities. There's no Force Barrier, no Phase Walk, nothing. But even if I can raise the barrier, heal to full? What are you talking about? You mistake sorcs with mercs. _IF_ there's another healer nearby, he can heal us up, if he can (yeah, there's a utility with 1% heal/sec, that definitely heals us to full in 8-10 seconds, sure). After the channel, we have around 2 GCDs to heal ourselves, before the shield collapses under the burst we get from the DPS and that won't be enough to heal to full, maybe to 50-80%, depending on how much health we had before FB, but definitely not full.

An operative on the other hand can go stealth and/or roll away, twice. And dps mercs have 3 lives, healer mercs have even more, since they can happily spam their healing abilities, while being immune to everyhing but dots (well, assuming he isn't stunned, but given the number of stuns a healer has to suffer, it's likely that his resolve bar is full anyway).

Plus you forget that all those abilities have cooldowns, I can't use FB if I was forced to use it 30 seconds ago, nor can I use PW.

[DocGamer]

Sorcs...Where will you go? ....My Lovely.....Where will you where will you go????

------------------------------------------

*Plays Ocean Drive Mix*

------------------------------------------

You leave without a word, no message, no number

And now my head is pounding like rolling thunder

------------------------------------------

You left me with a heartache deep inside

Girl you should see me cry all night, and I wonder....

:(:(