Class Changes: Corruption Sorcerer / Seer Consular

[ottffsse]

I want to see the devs livestream a NIM dp run with these changes. Run 4 lightning sorcs, 2 sorc heals. lets see them clear the content.

 

Totally Petition Devs Live stream Nim Brontes or DP Nim as suggested, party composition:

 

2 PT tanks

2 Sorc/Sage Heals

2 Lightning Sorcs

1 MM Sniper (they are actually good on Brontes)

1 Gunnery Commando

 

You can do it! You got the BURST! Now let's see the dps stay alive.

[RRZZRR]

Right now healers are too strong in pvp and a team with 2 very skilled healers is almost immortal. All you had to do is buff merc/commando heal spec and then increase the effect of pvp trauma debuff to lower HPS of all healers in pvp. (Or make a different debuff that works only for healers so it won't affect self-healing of dps specs). But with these changes you're just screwing up pve as well. Please, think again before implementing such big nerfs.

[Bristol]

Totally Petition Devs Live stream Nim Brontes or DP Nim as suggested, party composition:

 

2 PT tanks

2 Sorc/Sage Heals

2 Lightning Sorcs

1 MM Sniper (they are actually good on Brontes)

1 Gunnery Commando

 

You can do it! You got the BURST! Now let's see the dps stay alive.

 

I would like to add that all team members submit the un-edditted parses afterwards for review.

Gauntlet thrown...Does Keith have the stones to accept...???

Edited June 23, 2017 by Bristol

[Toraak]

Gauntlet thrown...Does Keith have the stones to accept...???

 

 

make sure it's on the PTS, so he has to do it with these sorc nerfs already in place.

[dscount]

Right now healers are too strong in pvp and a team with 2 very skilled healers is almost immortal. All you had to do is buff merc/commando heal spec and then increase the effect of pvp trauma debuff to lower HPS of all healers in pvp. (Or make a different debuff that works only for healers so it won't affect self-healing of dps specs). But with these changes you're just screwing up pve as well. Please, think again before implementing such big nerfs.

 

That is the REAL problem in PVP. No balance mechanic in place prevents multiple healers or skill sets like we have for SM Operations Daily. I've seen 3 healers on team A and one healer on team B with an IMP vs. IMP Unranked match.

[FlyXan]

Sorcs still remain acid kings with their Force barrier tho, bw forgot to nerf that as well:rolleyes:

 

Oh, you mean the FB that requires the sorc to stand still for 8 seconds, literally doing nothing but channeling the ablity, while enemies stand by him, waiting for the end of the channel, then stun him and finish the job? Yeah, that's a lot better than merc god bubble or op stealth. Seriously dude, have you ever played with a sorc healer? I don't think so ( or maybe you have but you sucked and you're envy of those, who are at least a bit decent).

[Rob_Knight]

Hey folks,

 

Below you will find the upcoming changes for Corruption and Seer Disciplines coming in 5.3.

 

 

 

WOW .... i already canceled my subscription and have had around 7 also do the same. im working on getting more to leave as well. I know they dont give a **** cause there happy with the ****** causal cartel blind morons who make up the majority of this game now - as they have worked towards/intended. Great job on loosing several more players who have stuck it out since day 1.

im consolidating the money from the players who are canceling there subs and will be trading randomly to players on fleet tonight (still about 3 days left on my sub) roughly 930 million . congrats to the lucky individuals who are the recipients.

I hope those of you veterans who choose to stay any longer find joy in the game still somehow.

[NHBabe]

I would like to add that all team members submit the un-edditted parses afterwards for review.

Gauntlet thrown...Does Keith have the stones to accept...???

 

make sure it's on the PTS, so he has to do it with these sorc nerfs already in place.

 

While I would love to see it we all KNOW they won't do it because it would just prove that these changes are ridiculous and so far off what is needed. I'll be shocked if they even respond to the request with a reason "why" they can't do it. They'll just pretend they didn't see the request in the thread.

[Rob_Knight]

While I would love to see it we all KNOW they won't do it because it would just prove that these changes are ridiculous and so far off what is needed. I'll be shocked if they even respond to the request with a reason "why" they can't do it. They'll just pretend they didn't see the request in the thread.

 

HAHA so true...... They pretend no not see most thread requests over the last several years.

[PROGOD]

The tears in this thread are glorious.

 

Such a long time as the top dog healer, blatently overpowered which ruined pvp and made pve healing trivial. The moment they get balanced to be equal to mercs and operative healers the crys of OMG unsub and not playing anymore come out.

 

If you cant heal on anything that is not overpowered, dont heal at all, period. Balance is good for the game.

 

 

This post makes no sense and is the reason why this game is trash now every class is easy to play in this game sorry ik that's saying alot but it's true no skill required. That said i didn't want to play something else over a class i fell in love with like sorc not for heals mind you i am a dps sorc and all 3 of the specs are useless thus no reason to keep playing and trust me when i say those who feel the same will quit as well. Now lets see if keith can get those ppl back ...most likely with the rep around this game i highly doubt it.

[PROGOD]

WOW .... i already canceled my subscription and have had around 7 also do the same. im working on getting more to leave as well. I know they dont give a **** cause there happy with the ****** causal cartel blind morons who make up the majority of this game now - as they have worked towards/intended. Great job on loosing several more players who have stuck it out since day 1.

im consolidating the money from the players who are canceling there subs and will be trading randomly to players on fleet tonight (still about 3 days left on my sub) roughly 930 million . congrats to the lucky individuals who are the recipients.

I hope those of you veterans who choose to stay any longer find joy in the game still somehow.

 

 

will be joining you that makes close to 10

[PROGOD]

LMAO!!! Madness is getting a buff. They nerfed my damn bubble but I am sure my madness sorc will get some love.

 

 

ya lets have faith in a guy who got hired other then to try and win good will when we have yet to see madness buffs. I'll give you this if madness gets a buff to make up for this nerf and it better be a really really good buff then i just don't think faith in a new manager of this title will be enough. I mean it hasn't been already but ya know i guess another round of getting slapped in the face might wake up a few more dead ppl.

[FerkWork]

As an aside after seeing this an Arsenal, I'm kind of scared what they are going to do to Virulence and IO.

[Thaladan]

Again a nerf based on data from pvp ...

 

If you follow through with these changes, you WILL HAVE TO reduces the damage operation bosses do at NiM level.

Even now (before changes) I get Out of Force in these high dmg (continuous) fights.

 

again, irrelevant post and wrong..

 

btw the general nerf for heal and static barrier are rude for dps specs..

 

concerning seer spec, heal is clearly utperforming, and this nerf is logic.

 

but the 2 other heal classes have to be nerfed too, to stay balanced.

Edited June 23, 2017 by Thaladan

[PROGOD]

+1 for removing the entire class.

 

Not for me. I already wasted millions of credits buying cool lightsabers (which don't apply to my soon-to-be-main merc), and millions of seconds grinding my sorc main to 248's. But right now, a new player or experimenting player might be making a sorc. Devs: don't mislead them into wasting their time.

 

 

or they can refund everyones time via credits spent money spent gear thats useless ya know

[PROGOD]

I will of course wait and see if they do something to buff balance and TK for sure. but if not... well.... FFXIV looks very pretty and actually has NEW content every expansion. And that is indeed very sad, since i've never actually unsubbed over the last 5.5 years (or so)... atm really considering it. Like what is this tendency of: oh, they nerf this class... hmmm what is the fotm? let's re-roll that. I've never understood that and never followed it myself lol, but lol...*** did revivication do to deserve more nerf? it's very bad already anyway.:eek:

 

i was looking into the new xpac looks cool

[Robocles]

It's like the Merc nerf thread all over again....... THE SKY IS FALLING!!!!!.......THE SKY IS FALLING!!!!!.......THE SKY IS FALLING!!!!!.......THE SKY IS FALLING!!!!!.......THE SKY IS FALLING!!!!!.......THE SKY IS FALLING!!!!!.......

 

Both needed a nerf, both are getting a nerf. Anyone who plays a sorc healer and is worth their salt has seen this as a necessity for a VERY long time. Maybe it's extreme, but we still haven't seen what they have in mind for Vir/Engi snipers, Madness Sorcs, and whatever else might be next, so for the love of god, stop with the ridiculous overreacting and give it some time. Utilities haven't even been brought into the picture yet, so who knows where that will leave us. But if you're crying about unsubbing over a nerf'd class, all I have to say is, welcome to MMO's snowflake, you're in for a bumpy ride.

 

We would... but we have been talking about "balance" since 5.0 dropped... what... 8 months ago?

 

But... nice job calling people snowflakes for being unhappy with what even you admit is an extreme over correction.

[NHBabe]

concerning seer spec, heal is clearly utperforming, and this nerf is logic.

 

but the 2 other heal classes have to be nerfed too, to stay balanced.

 

I agree that the other two need to be nerfed if they are going to nerf Corruption/Seer and it is quite unfair to only do one healing spec at time. If anything ALL 3 should see changes done simultaneously - the changes obviously being nerfs.

 

In regards to Seer Spec outperforming - I've yet to hear anyone from a raiding group say "Oh gods, you healers make this NiM OP way to easy. Please let us get down to 10% before you start to heal us, k!" I hardly doubt anybody from the PVE environment is complaining about the healing done by the healers of their guilds/groups.

 

No, it is only the PVP community that is in an uproar over the healing done by Corruption/Seer so really they should just place a nerf on the healing done in a PVP environment. No need to hurt the PVE community because the PVP can't kill a healer.

 

Just for reference, there are a few Combat Medic's in my guild that have healed for over 10 million a few times in PVP and at least a few times a week pull over 8+ million in heals. If anything Combat Medic is OP when it comes to PVP healing, it just may not be as noticeable as there are more Corruption/Seer's due to the DPS options available under that line are horrible. You are either a Seer or many times you're left out of any content harder than SM. You don't find that under the Commando line as Gunnery and AS perform very well in all content.

[matthobbit]

First I'd like to thank Keith for his responsiveness and engagement in the community, and explaining the feedback system Bioware has. I didn't post often in the forums before because I wasn't sure if my feedback would ever be read.

 

Also, I'm going to avoid the whole PvP PvE discussion. As someone who's put a lot of hours into both, I know that everything gets turned upside down because in PvP it's often the healers who do the "tanking". I think I can avoid this topic and leave it to others.

 

Reading through the entire 25+ pages reactions (at least when I started writing this), I see 2 primary reasons why people are upset over the nerfs:

 

 

1. The nerfs seem very heavy handed when compared to comparable nerfs to arsenal/gunnery.
   While most complaints around arsenal/gunnery have to do with the rather absurd DCDs, in essence for the DPS nerfs we see a 15% drop to one ability - blazing bolts/boltstorm, and a 15% critical damage decrease which, to be fair, does decrease the DPS of all their abilities.
    
   In comparison, sorc/sage healers got the kitchen sink thrown at them. The changes listed are a laundry list of 5%+ nerfs, many nerfs around 10%, with tons of tlittle tweaking nerfs to casting time, channel time, and force management which will increase the raw % of the nerfs. Our signature ability, Roaming Mend, will have its base healing nerfed by a stunning 30%.
    
   My suggestions:
   
   • Add a 3-4 second debuff to roaming mend that prevents the target from receiving a bouncing roaming mend. The debuff can prevent a single roaming mend from hitting a target twice without being too onerous to multiple sage/sorc healers in an op. Reduce the 30% nerf to roaming mend to something less severe.
     
   • Make the initial nerf bat less punishing and adjust the HPS downwards with small 2.5% tweaks if necessary. Sorc healers do need a nerf because they seem to be edging out mercs and scoundrels in the majority of ops i attend in terms of effectiveness, but the sheer number of nerfs here compared to the arsenal/gunnery really causes a real panic/outcry in the player base.
     

 

[*]It is impossible to separate the nerfs to corruption/seer from the context of the class.

DPS sorc/sages are consistently at the bottom of the DPS output pile in many SWTOR community site parses, and players notice this when in ops and in PvP. Because of this, many DPS sorc/sage mains, who enjoy the class and are attached to their toons, have transitioned to a role they find is beneficial to their team and that does exceptionally well in its role.

 

Right now we feel that healing is the only role we can perform well in, and that's being taken away from us.

 

If the nerf goes live without changes that increase the damage output of BOTH sorc/sage DPS disciplines, the class will feel neutered after an extended 8 month period where it's other disciplines were already under-performing. At this point I would make a sad puppy face with special characters, but I'm not terrible artistically talented.

 

My suggestions:

• Lightning/TK needs a buff to make it competitive again. There are already built-in limitations to ranged burst specs. Lightning/TK has a lot of channeled DPS that is vulnerable to interrupts, knockbacks, and stuns. There is ramp-up time for DPS and target switching: thundering blast needs affliction. Crushing darkness needs lightning flash to be efficient, and the crushing darkness DOT needs time to deal its full damage. Shock doesn't do enough damage to be worth casting without crushing darkness on the target. Chain lightning is only worth casting as a proc from thundering blast.
  
• I know a madness/balance buff is in the works so that's encouraging.
  

 

 

I agree in essence that sorc/sage healers are performing a little too well compared to other healers, but the wide-ranging severity of the nerf is just too much for me to not comment on.

[Lahandra]

good luck finding an ops team. or maybe with your post, tough luck finding an ops team

 

See... The funny thing is, most experienced players in the game that have been around since launch, already have every class in the game rolled, and are likely proficient on all of them and their varrying specs. So anyone who's experienced will have no issue at all finding an op's team, and as per the usual, in most cases are happy to help newcomers learn. This change doesn't make the sorc nonviable at all, simply balances it. So that means DPS have to actually learn how to play again..... DCD's, not standing in stupid, you know, the idiotic stuff they should have been paying attention to all along. Sorc's have been healing gods for way too long now and it's about time the players skill, in combination with teamwork in an op came into it.

 

TLDR; Suck it up snowflake.....

[Stellarcrusade]

Well I guess its official. There is now no reason to play a Sorc/Sage left. First they nerfed DPS now they utterly destroy heals. This wouldn't be such a big problem, just delete the character, but with 5.0 now gearing there is no way people will take the time to start gearing up another character. So it means, I guess, time to simply find a new game.

 

Shocks me a bit though that we deliberately eliminate all 3 specs of the most popular class. Well, lets see what other games EA has to offer.

[Lahandra]

Oh, you mean the FB that requires the sorc to stand still for 8 seconds, literally doing nothing but channeling the ablity, while enemies stand by him, waiting for the end of the channel, then stun him and finish the job? Yeah, that's a lot better than merc god bubble or op stealth. Seriously dude, have you ever played with a sorc healer? I don't think so ( or maybe you have but you sucked and you're envy of those, who are at least a bit decent).

 

Have you??? So long as you took the smart util's, you can bubble yourself before FB and heal to full while standing there. Assuming your team doesn't come along to help with the attacking dps at all, which is unlikely, you then use the phase walk you SHOULD have put down, and poof, your out..... Jesus, do you guys even think this stuff through??? Think creatively..... lol

Edited June 23, 2017 by Lahandra

[Lahandra]

We would... but we have been talking about "balance" since 5.0 dropped... what... 8 months ago?

 

But... nice job calling people snowflakes for being unhappy with what even you admit is an extreme over correction.

 

Apparently you missed the "maybe" in that sentence. Hence why I'm waiting around to see how everything shakes out rather than over reacting like a precious little snowflake..... It's the Arsenal thread all over again.....smh.... Any sorc healer, just like with the Arsenal merc, if he was worth his salt, would freely admit both were well overdue for a nerf. Up next..... the endless thread of sniper tears......

Edited June 23, 2017 by Lahandra

[thetracer]

A ~20% healing decrease (averaged based on usage) across all skills when hps output was not the biggest issue to begin with. This strategy overnerfs raw output while not properly address the problems with sorc/sage healing.

 

There are currently two major issues with sorc/sage healing compared to the other classes:

 

The first is that due to simple and overly-forgiving force management combined with over-utilization of 'smart' healing abilities, they're much easier to play at an effective level.

 

The other issue, which is what sees sorcs rising to the top particularly in ranked pvp, is the high mobility and lack of necessary hard casting due to most of the healing being loaded into instant and 'smart' abilities.

 

 

The proposed changes will have a severe negative impact healers at all skill levels. If it does knock sorcs and sages out of 'fotm' status, it'll only be because the healing output is so far behind the other classes.

 

Any metrics you have showing that sorcs have a significantly higher output than the other classes is due to the fact that target selection and resource management are a lot more forgiving than other classes which allows inexperienced players able to put up bigger numbers than their skill suggests.

 

 

With all of that being said, here is my counter-proposal with explanations for each item:

 

• Increase the cooldown of roaming mend by 5 seconds (15 to 20s)
  
• Reduce the base force regenerated by consuming darkness from 40 to 25
  
• Increase the force regenerated by consuming darkness by consuming 1 stack of force surge to 15 (up from 5)
  

 

(for the)DevNotes: The 5 second cooldown increase to roaming mend will increase the time between burst windows and force healers to think creatively both about what to do with the 3~ extra gcds between mends as well as think more carefully about it's usage as not to waste the potential. The end result is a 30% hps decrease for the ability and approximately a 4% hps decrease overall.

 

It's impossible to make roaming mend ineffective as a single target heal (unless you nerf it by more than 50% or prevent it from hitting a target more than once), but this strategy forces players to do more casting (particularly infusion in single target) between mends.

 

The changes to consuming darkness make resource management important. Overall force management will be tighter due to the decreased force regeneration of consuming darkness with force surge stacks (by 5). This will reduce sustained hps by a further 5% or so due to the added consumes needed to maintain force. In addition, the steep decrease in base the base regen of consuming darkness will make using it without force surge very costly in terms of healing downtime.

 

These adjustments address both the sustained and burst healing targets, but do so in a way that creates a noticeable skill progression for the class. The maximum healing will go down moderately while the average healing outputs will probably drop sharply to become more in line with other classes at relative experience levels.

 

Time to re-quote this post again.

 

For the record to the people above me, sure, I'm complaining. But not because I don't accept re-balancing. I think the way the devs did it is wrong. Post above is just one example of an alternative. Ironically, an alternative that did not take 6 months of planning, across an entire dev team, who is being paid to balance the game.

 

Fancy that.

[Jrbabar]

Question for either Keith or Eric:

 

It seems, a lot of people are very surprised by the nerf's to the Sorc / Sage class as a whole rather then just Corruption / Seer Tree. So i was hoping either one of you, or both, would make a comment as to "why" this nerf was needed?

 

Secondly, I would like to point out a thread Eric started on June 7th:

 

Discussion Topic: Class changes this summer: One of the paragraph's question and answer:

 

Why are these Disciplines being looked at for changes?

 

Between data and player feedback, these are the Disciplines that appear to be most in need of change. Whether that is that they are too good, or not good enough, these Disciplines need attention first.

 

I guess i'm confused as to why nerfing the Sorc / Sage dps spec's defensive's was deemed

most in need of change

 

However, Lightning / TK's damage or Pyro Pt / Plasmatech lack of survivability are considered NOT to be most in need of change. If one of you wouldn't mind a quick comment, i would be really interested in the answer!! ( As would a lot of others )