Class Changes: Arsenal Merc / Gunnery Commando

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

The thing that irritates me...

 

DPS output and survival stuff only matters to PvP.

 

So we're going to nerf a class so it's not as good in end game content raids...because PvPers don't like it. Outstanding.

 

DPS output and survival stuff only matters in PVP?? What game are you referring to exactly?

[KendraP]

Actually, yes you can, cause in PVE, defensives (especially trauma regulators) don't affect he DPS at all. This is a wave of PVE changes. This change won't have a big impact at all in PVP. They are nerfing the sustained part of arsenal (blazing bolts) and not the burst (heatseaker, rail shot, priming shot), which affect PVE more than PVP. Their choice of ability nerfing is good (though a bit too big, I know I'm repeating ).

 

Once again, even as someone who PVEs more than he PVPs (I do both), I agree PVP changes are a bigger issue rn (well except sorc DPS), but we gotta give them what they ask for, which is "What do you think of the DPS changes" and not "Do you think we should nerf trauma regulators"

 

OK I think nerfing dps is unnecessary and will hurt pve since the population of good dps is already low and making arsenal mercs like marksman gunslingers will kill even more. I've said everywhere that I have no issues with their damage output.

[AjentWashington]

Oh they certainly were being carried by both other classes and the fact we are in quite overgeared for the current content. To say they aren't would be silly.

 

https://gyazo.com/5ad02a845f813e20e3e4b19dcd9bb63d

Marksmanship is completely fine for brontes. Can't say anything about lightning, I don't play it. But please refrain from insulting my spec. Arsenal will probably be falling at around 8k for the highest burns after the nerfs.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Except that the balance goals dont balance s**t.

 

The damage adjustment down puts merc nearly 15% off top pasrers in PvE. Just like lightning and MM, no one will play them in PvE at all. This is most definitely not within the already way too wide theoretical gap of 10% proposed by BW.

 

This has been mentioned million times now, arsenal over performing issues are ONLY related to DCDs.

 

These changes can only be described as dumb.

 

They deserved to lose the surge bonus like every other class did in 4.0, but that's the only right move they made here. Unfortunately that does nothing to address the issues of their overperformance in PVP, and will just reduce their DPS performance in PVE.

[Ibokagain]

LOL all the folks that can't read, they aren't going to touch utilities in 5.3 they said it already they are only doing this:

 

"Before we dig into the details for any Classes or Disciplines that will be seeing damage or healing “nerfs” in 5.3"

 

One question I have Keith or Eric this post is based on Arsenal Merc / Gunnery Commandos specifically.

 

Arsenal:

Riddle no longer improves Unload

 

Gunnery:

Rotary Cannon no longer improves Full Auto

 

Riddle - Increases the crit hit chance for Unload, Blazing Bolts, and Priming Shot by 5%.

 

Unload is replaced by Blazing Bolts at lvl 58 so is it mostly just a correction and not really a so called nerf or are they removing Blazing Bolts and Priming shot as well?

 

Thanks

Ibok

[scardera]

Arsenal merc is the new lightning sorc GG biofail

[merovejec]

Yeah what people said, by nerfing damage u made them less useful for PVE but didnt fix the PVP issue, so its like u didnt do anything at all!

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

But you should to delete the nerf Target Tracking / Deadly Cannon from the list, please.

I really hope that you will hear this cry of the soul.

 

No, they deserved to lose that. Every other spec in the entire game lost that well over a year ago in 4.0. Arsenal was literally the only spec that kept it. I don't agree with the rest of the DPS nerfs to mercs, but that one was a long time in coming. They've been throwing around 35K+ heatseekers like M&Ms in 5.0, there is no reason only one spec in the game should be doing crits like that under the current climate conditions.

 

They shouldn't have touched the other DPS aspects they did or the energy, they just should have addressed their Godly DCDs and heals.

[warrico]

I might be understading this wrong (I dont see how, but k)

HOW ARE U NOT NERFING THEIR DEFENSE? PVP IS CRAP DUE TO INSANE DEFENSE. THIS GAME HAS ALWAYS BEEN LAUGHABLE WHEN IT COMES TO PVP, BUT COME ON.... THE FEEDBACK IS THERE, DO SOMETHING AT LEAST.

 

caps so devs might care or understand. Its hard to understand feedback unless its screaming in ur face.

 

sidenote: sorc/sage heal has been insane since 3.0 so why do I bother. They either dont care or they really have no idea what to do.

 

EDIT: this is for pvp. I dont pve, so I have no idea how that is (but even if dps is insane in pve it doesnt excuse the lack of PVP changes )

Edited June 16, 2017 by warrico

[americanaussie]

I'm concerned that the survivability of Mercs/Mandos in PvP which was not addressed will still remain drastically higher than other classes. I believe the Merc/Mando survivability rather than damage is the main complaint against them. The fact that survivability doesn't factor into your balancing (per the balance post from earlier) is very concerning. It's critical to compare how classes survivability stack up against each other.

 

They said they're adjusting damage first then defenses

[Vodamin]

I might be understading this wrong (I dont see how, but k)

HOW ARE U NOT NERFING THEIR DEFENSE? PVP IS CRAP DUE TO INSANE DEFENSE. THIS GAME HAS ALWAYS BEEN LAUGHABLE WHEN IT COMES TO PVP, BUT COME ON.... THE FEEDBACK IS THERE, DO SOMETHING AT LEAST.

 

caps so devs might care or understand. Its hard to understand feedback unless its screaming in ur face.

 

sidenote: sorc/sage heal has been insane since 3.0 so why do I bother. They either dont care or they really have no idea what to do.

 

They think dummy dps matters in PvP. So they decided to nerf gunnery's dps, punishing the PvErs, instead of fixing their defenses and leaving their damage alone.

Again we the raiders have to suffer because BioWare incompetence

[Evolixe]

Furthermore, perhaps we need a discussion about the theoretical 10% gap? Is it too much?

 

We don't need to discuss anything. We need that ideological, non-functional system to die a fiery death.

[Flying-Brian]

So, just to be clear on this.

 

You are gutting the sustained DPS from Blazing Bolts/Boltstorm, because it is the highest damage skill in a prolonged fight.

And you are gutting the crit bonus out of the totally crit dependant burst damage skills.

 

So your target goal is to make Gunnery/Arsenal useless in PVE at a NiM raiding level.

Edited June 16, 2017 by Flying-Brian

[warrico]

They think dummy dps matters in PvP. So they decided to nerf gunnery's dps, punishing the PvErs, instead of fixing their defenses and leaving their damage alone.

Again we the raiders have to suffer because BioWare incompetence

 

I dont pve, but I can agree on the dmg... in pvp it doesnt bother me.. no more than any other class. The def however needs a nerf. I really dont see how this change is gonna benefit pve or pvp...

[TalonVII]

Typical, nerf what isn't needed, leave alone what is needed. And we'll see what PTs get.

[ThanatosReaper]

Can't say that I'm surprised. Classic Bioware, promising nerfs, but nerfing everything no one complained about.

 

Keith, you have to realize, that the design philosophy your team uses is utter garbage. There's no way to sugarcoat it, it just DOES NOT MAKE SENSE. The claim was that the combat team balances based on internal testing, etc, etc. and it is first to adjust damage values. Your design philosophy is completely flawed because there are utility talents THAT DIRECTLY IMPACT DAMAGE (not to say that it isn't flawed even if some talents did not). Assassin's, as an example, have Reaper's Rush and Audacity. Both directly impact the damage output of a class. They are utilities. Why are utilities not included in your initial balancing?

 

Even if utilities did not directly increase damage output, they still are factored in because utilities can increase the longevity of a class. The longer you are alive = the more damage you deal. The concept isn't too difficult to understand, correct? Oh, want an example? How about T R A U M A R E G U L A T O R S. Trauma regulators massively increases the damage output of the Mercenary class, yet it is not being nerfed. Nerfing their raw dps is the opposite direction the game needs to go into.

 

If anything, their dps needs a buff, every single class does, because the TTK in this game is so god awfully high because Bioware's idea of balancing classes is giving everyone the same utilities and livelord cooldowns (like trauma regulators, the sniper heal, etc).

 

No one cares about Merc's damage. Absolutely nobody. If you guys fail to remove what was asked by 99% of the PvP community then nothing is changing in Bioware. Keith, you promised to be an innovative force that was "out with the old" and "in with the new". That includes being able to deviate from old, classic Bioware actions that drove thousands away from the game, such as the inability to listen to their community. Either change, or continue to kill your own game. After 6 months of waiting for class balance now, no one is going to be around by the time you guys decide to listen.

[Britharen]

There is a lot of doom and gloom around here and I think a lot of it is exaggerated.

Look at this.

 

http://ixparse.com/stats/

 

Of the people who parse and upload their data over the last 16 weeks when using the raid settings in starparse, CMDO/Merc is over-represented by 200%. 1/3 of people who fit the above description when they dps are cmdomercs. 93% of them play gun/ars. If the internal data is anything like this then merc/cmdos need a dps nerf. They are kinda the brain-dead option to clear content. Their only drawback is they don't have the full 35 m range of tk and snipers. I can't think of a single fight where I would not take a skilled mercmdo.

 

Since I don't play my merc/cmdos beyond casually, I can't comment on the specific way they chose to nerf the dps, but my math puts it at more of 400 dps drop and more in line with Hatred Pyrotech. We'll have to see how it operates when live and how players adjust to it, but this is in line with the balancing objectives stated in the past.

 

Re: dummies. I have already shown how they are over-represented in pve, but a would like to add a few notes here. 1. The earlier dev post never said they took dummy parses into account. 2. Top parsing specs are always over-represented on leader-boards. I parsed my infil shadow till I felt like I had learned all I could comparing it to other peoples parses then I stopped. (I don't have the patience to wait for a lucky parse just to be the top of the sin/shadow leader-board) Lethality is a different matter because it could be the server/world top. So, I might do more. This effect magnifies as you go further down.

 

PVP

Yes they didn't get the utility nerfs many are calling for, but cmdos really are not the problem in pvp. It is the FOTM nature that is. Stacking any class causes problems. If fewer people queued on their cmdo alts one to three in a match would not be that big a deal. Personally the problem class is snipers, which can ruin a match without class stacking.

Additionally, I suspect the the overuse in pve bleeds over into pvp because of the current gearing system. If their pve use goes down, I suspect their pvp use will as well.

 

Final comment,

With a sufficiently difficult fight all specs should parse equally is in effect their goal. Do we think the mechanics in many fights are strong/weak enough that lethality losses enough up-time and rotation quality and mm maintains near perfect up-time and rotation quality to justify a 10% spread. I don't know, but I do know that Arsgun can maintain up-time and rotation quality to outperform most specs.

Edited June 16, 2017 by Britharen
typo

[Kyuuu]

there dps might need slight nerf but none this fixes the over abundence of DCD that heal them... so good job bw on not listening.

 

Jugs get 1 DCD that heals them to full people go crazy and they nerf it.

 

BW give them 3 dcd that heal them to full people go crazy and bw plugs there ears and doesnt listen typical bw

 

I would like to re guest Sin/marauders and ever other melee dps get 3 dcd that heal to full along with full on reflect.

 

so the full on DCD that heal and reflect on on EVERYTHING so EVERYTHING can be broke

Edited June 16, 2017 by Kyuuu

[warrico]

There is a lot of doom and gloom around here and I think a lot of it is exaggerated.

Look at this.

 

http://ixparse.com/stats/

 

Of the people who parse and upload their data over the last 16 weeks when using the raid settings in starparse, CMDO/Merc is over-represented by 200%. 1/3 of people who fit the above description when they dps are cmdomercs. 93% of them play gun/ars. If the internal data is anything like this then merc/cmdos need a dps nerf. They are kinda the brain-dead option to clear content. Their only drawback is they don't have the full 35 m range of tk and snipers. I can't think of a single fight where I would not take a skilled mercmdo.

 

Since I don't play my merc/cmdos beyond casually, I can't comment on the specific way they chose to nerf the dps, but my math puts it at more of 400 dps drop and more in line with Hatred Pyrotech. We'll have to see how it operates when live and how players adjust to it, but this is in line with the balancing objectives stated in the past.

 

Re: dummies. I have already shown how they are over-represented in pve, but a would like to add a few notes here. 1. The earlier dev post never said they took dummy parses into account. 2. Top parsing specs are always over-represented on leader-boards. I parsed my infil shadow till I felt like I had learned all I could comparing it to other peoples parses then I stopped. (I don't have the patience to wait for a lucky parse just to be the top of the sin/shadow leader-board) Lethality is a different matter because it could be the server/world top. So, I might do more. This effect magnifies as you go further down.

 

PVP

Yes they didn't get the utility nerfs many are calling for, but cmdos really are not the problem in pvp. It is the FOTM nature that is. Stacking any class causes problems. If fewer people queued on their cmdo alts one to three in a match would not be that big a deal. Personally the problem class is snipers, which can ruin a match without class stacking.

Additionally, I suspect the the overuse in pve bleeds over into pvp because of the current gearing system. If their pve use goes down, I suspect their pvp use will as well.

 

Final comment,

With a sufficiently difficult fight all specs should parse equally is in effect their goal. Do with think the mechanics in many fights are strong/weak enough that lethality losses enough up-time and rotation quality and mm maintains near perfect up-time and rotation quality to justify a 10% spread. I don't know, but I do know that Arsgun can maintain up-time and rotation quality to outperform most specs.

 

PVP: FOTM will always change sadly... but that doesnt mean u shouldnt change what needs changing. It just means u should keep tryin to Balance it until the difference is minimal compared to skill. That way alot of new players+ certain people will go FOTM. however they will suck even if stacked, due to lack of skill. Either way, this game needs alot more Balance updates as far as pvp goes. Didnt the team ask us if we wanted regular changes to pvp Balance or 1 big change every now and then? (might be another game as I have been regularrly unsubbing to this game due to lack of interest. Tho returning since its star wars lol..)

 

Sidenote: Gear shouldnt matter, skills should #BringBackPvpGear

[fifteendollers]

The "Combat Team" should rename themselves the "PvE Team".

[Exly]

I mostly do end game pve content, and have been playing a merc/mando since 2.0. Not that I don't enjoy playing other specs, and I do play them from time to time just to mix things up a little, but I enjoy playing merc most of all. Now I am being told with these changes that I should just park my merc on the bench and switch my main to another spec and I don't like it.

 

Why do you want to make it so painful to play some specs?

Why can't all specs be viable for end game content?

Why can't you just balance the classes so that we can choose for ourselves which class we play without having to worry about the impact on our teammates?

I understand that the survivability of mercs in pvp makes them op, but why nerf damage if survivability is the issue?

Why don't you ever seem to listen to us?

[Britharen]

Why do you want to make it so painful to play some specs?

If you love a spec it is never painful. Balance shadow here since 2.0

 

Why can't all specs be viable for end game content?

If you are skilled they all are.

Why can't you just balance the classes so that we can choose for ourselves which class we play without having to worry about the impact on our teammates?

Do you know your class? are you skilled? The last time we had to worry was back when (*cough cough*) BHTroopers were hydraulically overpowered.

I understand that the survivability of mercs in pvp makes them op, but why nerf damage if survivability is the issue?

Why don't you ever seem to listen to us?

Asked, answered, and they have been listening a lot more lately.

[WheresMyWhisky]

This is probably gonna work out as too big a nerf I don't think this will leave arsenal much above mm snipers which are so bad in pve no one in their right mind takes them.

 

I think you need to tone down the 700ish dps nerf to more like 350

 

PS I don't play merc just no need to make them as useless as MM in PVE

[Exly]

If you love a spec it is never painful. Balance shadow here since 2.0

 

If you are skilled they all are.

 

Do you know your class? are you skilled? The last time we had to worry was back when (*cough cough*) BHTroopers were hydraulically overpowered.

 

Asked, answered, and they have been listening a lot more lately.

 

Even if you love a spec, if the groups dps is too low because your dps was nerfed then that is painful.

 

Skill or no skill, you really need to think twice before binging mm speced snipers or lighting sorcs into an op. Remember, 1% of the people can be in the 99th percentile, so if you need to be one of those players to be viable for an op, then that places a high burden on the rest of the people that perform at a lower level.

 

I don't know. According to Star Parse I usually rank in the 97th to 99th percentile on most boss fights. I think that is pretty good, but I'll let you be the judge of that.

[Romeugues]

For pvp it looks like I'll still be able to play my merc without much change(i.e face tanking everything) since they're addressing the wrong thing, the DPS, not their dcds.

I'm currently leveling up galactic command on my Sorc on the perhaps false hope the changes to DPS sorcs will make them actually contribute something rather than be a burden.