Discussion Topic: Master Mode Operation Gear Drops

[Flying-Brian]

Before I provide my answer Eric, I would like to ask one of my own.

 

Why have the design team been so reluctant to have Master mode ops drop unassembled tokens on everything except the final boss? At this point we are 7 months into 5.0, so if there is to be a 6.0, we've got 5-6 months left if it would launch at the end of the year. There is no point to penalizing players to grind behind such a harsh gear wall as there currently is.

 

You have said it yourself (multiple times). The hardest content should have the greatest rewards, well for PVE that is master mode ops. But it is currently impossible to get a full set of 248 gear from ops. But a player who has never done ops, and just has good RNG luck can get a full set of 248 from CXP crates from doing content that doesn't need 248 gear.

 

Now to answer your questions.

We double the amount of drops awarded in both 8 and 16-player difficulties. This means there is a random aspect of what is dropping, but there will be more chances of receiving Tier 4 gear based on the number of players participating in the Operation.

This is pointless, as the gear that is dropped is basicly vendor trash and worthless. Since the drops are random, as others have pointed out, gear for classes that aren't even in the group drops. And now with 246 gear being craftable, there is even less reason and worth to this gear. It is again pointless, and double the drops does not help.

 

We leave the amount of gear drops as is, but we add Unassembled Components to each boss. This would mean that players running Master Mode would not only be receiving a chance at Tier 4 gear, but they are also working towards being able to upgrade/purchase the Tier 4 gear they need. We realize Unassembled Components have been attributed to PvP activities, but we could make that adjustment.

The only way this would work is if you make the amount of Unassembled Components that drop be for each person in the raid, and be of a quantity that is not an insult, or just another ridiculous grind. So, something like 25 Unassembled Components, per person, per boss. That is a higher number, but this is also a master mode op boss, not a yolo pvp match that you can hide in corner for and afk your way to 8 Unassembled Components.

 

The best option, and the one that players want, is please just make it so each boss drops a specific Tier 4 Legendary quality item.

Edited June 15, 2017 by Flying-Brian

[Andryah]

So what do you think? Do you like or dislike option 1 or 2 above? Is there something you are concerned about with either idea? What idea was not mentioned that you think could solve this? Let us know!

 

-eric

 

I have no strong opinion on either option..... but...

 

I wanted to personally thank you Eric, and Keith, for actually making a thread in general forum where you lay out the context, indicate you are planning on some changes, AND.. AND.. are actually asking us for input in advance of any apparent decision by the studio for us.

 

Well done.. and please keep it up! Not everyone will agree and you will get the usual wide splash of opinions, and completely off topic ideas... but I trust that the team in Austin can sort the wheat from the chaff.

Edited June 15, 2017 by Andryah

[MuskyBoy]

Option 2 as long as it is a decent amount of components I would suggest roughly 20 per boss and 50 for completing the operation. That would equate to roughly 150 unassembled components for most operations.

[xiiMPuLSe]

Hey folks,

 

Since the launch of Galactic Command we have made great strides to change it to be a supporting gearing system versus the primary means of gearing your characters. We still have improvements to make and we will be talking more about gearing methodology in an upcoming discussion topic. For today, we really want to focus on the drops currently coming from Master Mode Operations, as this has been a hot topic. Let’s start with some context on how gearing currently works for Operations at each difficulty (all examples assume 8-player):

 

Story Mode Operations:

• Each boss drops a specific Tier 2 Legendary quality item
  
  • Ex: Soa in Eternity Vault will always drop 2 offhands

 

Veteran Mode Operations:

• Each boss drops a specific Tier 3 Legendary quality item
  
  • Ex: Soa in Eternity Vault will always drop 2 offhands

 

Master Mode Operations:

• Each non-final boss in an Operation will drop random Tier 4 Prototype and/or Artifact quality item
  
  • Ex: Killing Nefra in Dread Fortress will drop 2 random items which will be of Prototype or Artifact quality

• Each final boss of an Operation will drop a specific Tier 4 Legendary quality item
  
  • Ex: Dread Master Brontes in Dread Fortress will always drop 2 gloves

 

Gods From the Machine does not follow the above rules. Here is how that works:

• Story Mode – Each boss will drop a specific Tier 3 Legendary item
  
  • Ex: Tyth will always drop a Tier 3 relic

• Veteran Mode – Each boss will drop a specific Tier 4 Legendary item
  
  • Ex: Tyth will always drop a Tier 3 relic

 

The key issue with Master Mode is the gear you are receiving isn’t being consistently provided as it is with the other Tiers. The primary reason is we wanted the Gods from the Machine Operation to contain BiS gear and be the most consistent source for Tier 4 gear. But, since we only offer one boss encounter right now, it’s making it difficult for you to obtain Tier 4 gear. We have been discussing two ideas to address this issue and would like your feedback:

 

1. We double the amount of drops awarded in both 8 and 16-player difficulties. This means there is a random aspect of what is dropping, but there will be more chances of receiving Tier 4 gear based on the number of players participating in the Operation.
   
2. We leave the amount of gear drops as is, but we add Unassembled Components to each boss. This would mean that players running Master Mode would not only be receiving a chance at Tier 4 gear, but they are also working towards being able to upgrade/purchase the Tier 4 gear they need. We realize Unassembled Components have been attributed to PvP activities, but we could make that adjustment.

 

So what do you think? Do you like or dislike option 1 or 2 above? Is there something you are concerned about with either idea? What idea was not mentioned that you think could solve this? Let us know!

 

-eric

 

I personally like option 2, but MM should at least be guaranteed 246 with the UA imo

[mike_carton]

It's really simple, RNG and Blue gear have no place being in OPS, period.

SM OPS - 236 unassembled tokens, boss specific drops

VM OPS - 242 unassembled tokens, boss specific drops

MM OPS - 246 unassembled tokens, boss specific drops

GFTM SM - 242 unassembled tokens, boss specific drops

GFTM VM - 248 unassembled tokens, boss specific drops

 

- Allow 246's to be upgraded to 248's with Unassembled Components (possibly consider all the tiers, 234 > 236 for eg)

- Add Unassembled Components to all the operations weekly missions and group finder dailies for ops.

This looks like a player-friendly idea. I can get behind this. It has the advantage of encouraging more players to try Operations. We do need more interested people to willingly participate in Ops and PvP.

[mike_carton]

The only way this would work is if you make the amount of Unassembled Components that drop be for each person in the raid, and be of a quantity that is not an insult, or just another ridiculous grind.

 

This is important and I have not seen other mentions of it. UC drops - if that's the chosen option - should be decent quantity and be for every member in the team.

[Gyronamics]

A major purpose of doing endgame raiding was gutted like a mackerel when it's pants on head stupid easy to farm cxp and open a buttload of RNG boxes which just happen to drop top tier gear.

 

Gear check? Skill check? Nah, open more crates. OPEN MORE CRATES.

 

Probably opened many hundreds of crates and RNG or not, the competence and teamwork required to click on a crate and be rewarded with the best gear isn't exactly high.

 

The options available are trivial. I gained most of my full 248 and extra 248 from farming casual content for CXP.

 

Neither option put forward suggests this will change in the future. Developers still hanging on to the idea that the hardest way to get endgame gear should be to clear the hardest PVE content.

 

Rather choose nothing than encourage it.

 

Crates should cap out below endgame gear and hardest PVE content should be the final tier without RNG, one piece a boss with the most desirable pieces being on the final bosses. Tokens at that so people can do their own balancing.

 

And then PVP should get down bolstered to max level from crates so PVE doesn't interfere.

 

Can keep the crates, just bin the reality of it being the way to endgame gear.

Edited June 15, 2017 by Gyronamics

[RengarFarr]

1. The problem with this is not the artifact drop, but the prototype drops. The artifacts are useful and next to BiS and am pretty sure nobody will turn it down if offered. But to kill a NiM boss and have a crappy blue piece in which you can only use the armoring is utter garbage. If this drop rate was applied to purple only and doubled I think it would drastically fix the problem. But if we go in there and get two blues on dread guards, we're gonna have an issue.

 

2. iF components were legacy bound Id vote for this, because now your Alts can benefit and bringing an alt to a NiM op won't hurt you're gear getting chance. But since they're not I am now forced to pvp on a toon I most likely do not pvp on to grab gear, and that's not gonna fly in terms of gearing, unless the components are SUBSTANTIAL.

 

From both options I prefer #1 with all artifact gear if possible and can even be random, it'll encourage more alt playing and more alt gearing and overall a better gaming experience.

#2 is only viable if components are legacy wide, then min maxing will be made easier and achieving that one toon BiS a lot more viable.

 

Consensus among <Eon>

[Andryah]

in my opinion this is the biggest issue

getting blue loot is such a slap in the face; because you're better off with running vet ops (blue 244 is objectively worse than 242)

honestly, if it dropped 2 random 246 pieces, everything would be fine in my opinion

 

Not necessarily. You have to look beyond just the color coding. If a prototype item has the same effective stats as artifact... I would always go with the prototype. Why? Lower maintenance costs, and mods are less expensive to pull as well if it's a modable item.

 

Now, if the prototype is inferior in stats then your point is well taken. But early on in 5.x they appear to have blurred lines between color codes as we indeed did see even some green armors that are effectively artifact level in terms of stats/level, just the wrong color for those who chase color.

 

I am simply pointing out that fixating on color coding is not always wise with SWTOR itemizations. Sometimes it is, sometimes it is not.

 

I also think the studio should stop with the Legendary drops unless they are clearly superior to artifact/prototype items. Why? Again... maintenance costs are quite a bit higher for little actual benefit. In fact, I would prefer that Ops drops only be artifact level items...... with accurate itemizations compared to a similar item that is prototype quality (like it use to be in the old days).

Edited June 15, 2017 by Andryah

[DarthCognusSion]

If it has to be one or the other, I would rather each boss drop unassembled components. If they drop components, each player needs to receive components, and it should be at least 5 per boss on average per operation. If you want them to scale up with the earlier bosses dropping less and the later bosses dropping more, this could prevent the early bosses from being farmed for components.

[cheerwine]

To be honest, neither option is acceptable. Between the 2 options, #2 is better, but it also needs to drop a large amount if that's the direction you're going. Currently, there is no reason to run MM raids other than to get to the final boss. There should be no reason why HM and SM give guaranteed gear, and in fact HM gear actually gives better gear. 242 set piece tokens are better than random pieces; especially if they're 244 blues.

 

There is no reason for SM and HM raids to drop guaranteed set pieces, and MM not. If you must, make it 246. I know it sucks for you to make changes / new additions. But the best option to please hardcore raiders outside guaranteed 248 legendaries, would be making 246 purple tokens. It means new vendors / items, but these are really the only 2 options that don't make us feel unappreciated for clearing the hardest content available

 

BTW, non-final bosses drop 1 piece, not 2.

Edited June 15, 2017 by cheerwine

[azamba]

I'd really prefer option 3, where all the Master Mode bosses drop 248 tokens. We won't be able to get BiS from Machine Gos for another 6 months.

 

But between the 2 options you gave, I'd prefer components. The random gear is pretty obnoxious, even doubling it would still cause a fair amount of frustration.

 

But to be clear, that's only if it was actually a decent amount of components. I'd suggest a sliding scale, where something like Nefra gives only a few (8) and then increasing by 4 or 8 each subsequent boss.

 

But if it would be an insulting low amount (like 2 or 4 per boss) I'd rather take my chances with the double drop.

 

This!

Option 3 is what everybody wants! Because let's face it, how many people/guilds nowadays are able to actually finish/farm MM Operations? What motivation people even have to do those nowadays? Hell, there are barely any groups that can finish ToS and Rav HM..

So it would be only fair, like it was in the old days, to reward those that can finish these MM contents with the best gear in the game.

But you guys want to reward with a better gear in a HM Operation (Gods from the Machine) than in a Master Mode like Dread Palace, that is supposed to be more difficult, even if its an older content.

So the way I see it, you should reward 248 gear in Master Mode Operation with a token from every boss, and in the new Operation do the same as intended. And for the new Gods from the Machine Master Mode, that I hope is still coming, make a new tier, like 250 or 252 gear token.

The idea for the UC's in MM is good IF and only IF its a fair amount per boss. By fair I mean that you can actually buy a token piece if you complete the Master Mode Operation. Like this:

 

Dread Fortress MM -

 

Nefra - 15 UC's

Draxus - 30 UC's

Grob - 45 UC's

Corruptor - 60 UC's

Brontes - 75 UC's

 

Total: 225 UC's

 

You can only do it once per week with a character, so it's fair that if you manage to complete a MM Op you can buy a piece of gear, even if it's only a relic or implant etc.

If you are planning to reward people with like 4 UC's or 8 per boss, don't even go with the idea.

Well, that's just my opinion, hope it helps.

Edited June 15, 2017 by azamba

[LonelyWookiee]

My preference would be Option 2 where the bosses drop Unassembled Components (UCs). I like this idea because it gives players who prefer not to dabble in PVP (I like PVP) a way to get UCs. Additionally, gearing will be more flexible since UCs can also be traded in for any piece. I would only hope they drop in sufficient quantities. Thanks for asking for our feedback!

[EzioMessi]

If option #2 is used, I hope you don't drop massive quantities of UCs for every boss.... that'd basically make the PvP grind even worse, because now the only good way to get PvP gear would be to do... NiM PvE...

 

In all seriousness, the only good solution to PvE gearing is to make it like it used to be. Let players have specific 248 drops from all NiM content in the game. There's no reason players should be punished with idiotic RNG just because the devs took 2.5 years to release one single boss of an Op.

 

But if option 2 were to be implemented, please do consider the effect it'll have on PvP.

[Hombad]

Out of the two options, option 2 for sure.

 

One of the reasons I don't like other games' gearing systems (before the GC change) was that it was relatively easy to gear alts/you KNEW what was going to drop off each boss.

 

Unassembled components removes the competitiveness in loot acquisition (which, in NiM, is fair enough I think - everyone should be rewarded), and supplements PvP/player gearing choices.

[DocGamer]

DPS Sorcs/Sages DONT EVEN BOTHER COMMENTING HERE!

 

You don't do enough dps to go into NiM

 

[DZechman]

More player choice is good.

 

More reliance on random luck is bad.

 

If you mean to frame these two scenarios as the only options, I can't believe you're even seriously asking this question.

 

I would LOVE to see UC's become a part of PvE content rewards.

 

You see, we're not gearing for ONE thing or THE OTHER any more, we're just gearing now. And players who primarily play PvE need the same choice-making ability as the players who primarily play PvP.

[Arrayl]

Option 2, components.

 

Would need to be quite a few components, since MM groups don't spontaneously happen for most people. Enough to incentivize VM groups to pushing into MM. Maybe get some ppl who are tired of grinding WZs and Ranked, but not too much that it drains the entire PvP population. And MM is hard, so it should get just a lil bit more components than 8 ppl sync-queuing ranked.

 

Perhaps 120 should drop for MM ops, and 140 for SnV (few more bosses, so they get some extra components). Each boss could drop a fixed amount, I was thinking like this:

• For 5 boss ops (TFB, DP, DF): 24 components per boss = 24 x 5 = 120 components per MM operation
  
• For 4 boss ops (EC): 30 components per boss = 30 x 4 = 120 components per MM operation
  
• For 7 boss ops (SnV): 20 components per boss = 20 x 7 = 140 components per MM operation
  

 

Bioware, feel free to scale up/down the component values such that the raiders and PvPers hate you equally. Then you know you're balanced.

 

EDIT: Forgot single bosses, like Golden Fury. Maybe 30 components.

EDIT2: Forgot 16-man MM. Maybe scale amount 1.5 times whatever the 8-man MM component drops is. Extra is justified for time spent having to put together and working with 16 ppl.

Edited June 15, 2017 by Arrayl

[harrybracey]

I would just like to point out that there were plans to make the UC's legacy wide in 5.3. If we're expecting to get 25 per boss as people are suggesting, I could run Nefra, Writhing Horror etc. on each of my 10-15+ characters capable of doing it on imp side alone. Now while this would be boring, it would be significantly more effective than pvp. Possibly making it far quicker to gear than what may be intentional. Just a thought.

[Silense]

Only good option is to put in the 248 token drops for all master mode operations. Currently the only way to get some 248 pieces is to run the hard mode then pvp for unassembled components and trade up, should be able to get BiS without having to pvp for those of us who are not interested in the pvp aspect of the game.

 

On a side note It takes a ton of work and dedication to raid in the master mode operations so giving those players who put the time in the best gear isn't a bad thing. Be nice to your hardcore raiders and they will take care of your game. Most of us that raid master mode are connected to multiple game communities and if the raiding environment is good we like to try to get raiders from other games to come play.

 

But if you're dead set on not offering 248 unassembled tokens out of master operations then I would suggest adding a 246 unassembled token vendor, or adding unassembled components to master mode ops so at least we can upgrade the pieces we get from hardmode into 248 pieces.

[Eli_Porter]

Regarding UC's from SM/HM bosses, rewards should be op-specific based on difficulty to deter farming.

 

Easy SM ops like EV/KP should award 2 UC for each boss.

 

Hard SM ops like ToS should award 3 UC for each boss.

 

Easy HM ops like EV/KP should award 4 UC for each boss.

 

Moderately difficult HM ops like TFB should award 8 UC for each boss.

 

Difficult HM ops like ToS should award 12 UC for each boss.

 

And so on.

 

Even with 2 UC's per boss, you're talking about a 15-30 minute activity that rewards about four times as much CXP and roughly the same UC's a PvP match would give with a daily+weekly active.

 

So PvP CXP would need a buff to make up for it, by roughly 50% (preferably in the daily+weekly rewards). GSF CXP is really good in comparison so i'd only buff it by like 20%.

Edited June 15, 2017 by Eli_Porter

[LordMairsil]

Since the launch of Galactic Command we have made great strides to change it to be a supporting gearing system versus the primary means of gearing your characters.

 

First of all, let me commend you on that. Acknowledging Galactic Command as supplementary rather than primary made it a welcome addition to me.

 

The primary reason is we wanted the Gods from the Machine Operation to contain BiS gear and be the most consistent source for Tier 4 gear.

 

Problem is PvP is by far the most reliable and easiers way to get tier 4 gear now. Lucky rolls on CXP rng are second, and ops are completely useless for it. Casual pvpers with lots of spare time have several alts in full 248 by now, so there is nothing exclusive about it.

 

The problem isn't even that getting 248 in PvE is too hard, especially with crafted 246 being close. It's the frustration that weeks of hard work clearing a new NiM boss yield absolutely zero rewards, even HM rewards are miles better, giving pieces for the correct class that can be upgraded by pvp.

 

We leave the amount of gear drops as is, but we add Unassembled Components to each boss. This would mean that players running Master Mode would not only be receiving a chance at Tier 4 gear, but they are also working towards being able to upgrade/purchase the Tier 4 gear they need.

 

Don't even bother with a "chance at Tier 4 gear", that will just make it more frustrating. If you don't want to hand out tier 4 (to keep it exclusive to the new ops and about 50 million casual pvp players), just drop it entirely from NiM ops.

 

Unassembled components would work, but it better be a significant amount. Something like 50 components per boss wouldn't really feel like a rewards, but at least it's borderline useful.

[Glzmo]

I'd prefer it if you overhaul the whole boss drop system so everybody in the group always gets a guaranteed gear drop (the same for everyone) assigned to them so everybody gets rewarded equally for participating in an operation. This would also get rid of animosity towards people that always seem to win the loot/roll lottery while others don't get anything, which can be a huge problem in pickup groups. Edited June 15, 2017 by Glzmo

[Biomild]

I would go for option 3 also (248 unassembled tokens on each boss), but if that is really not an option, then I would go for option 2 with the components. I hate RNG and on NiM ops there should be no RNG involved as that screw up the loot systems guilds use. Edited June 15, 2017 by Biomild

[nyrkverse]

I vote for Option 3: NiM bosses drop specific gear tokens, tier 4 legendary, in line with every other difficulty.

 

Option 1: no thanks

Option 2: better be A LOT of components. With some exceptions - Nefra being the most glaring - killing a NiM boss is much harder and often more time consuming than finishing the PvP weekly. The amount of components should absolutely reflect that (I also happen to think that the components gains from PvP should be increased but that's another topic).