5.2 Gear Gap is Wrecking New Players

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

And how much is a top tier hilt or barrel to buy on the GTN. Last I look a few days ago I saw them for over 1.6 mil.. I even saw someone had listed some for over 10 mil.

I ask you, why should we have to "pay" for hilts like that to gear up in pvp.

 

There is really only one solution to all this mess that doesn't require Bio to completely change the whole RNG gearing in the game. Which is to increase Bolster to nearly the same lvl as the top gear.

If the top gear is 248, then gear should be bolstered to 246. Those with 248 can say they've got BiS and can still have a very small advantage for getting it. But that gear will only really be useful in pve content.

Let's face it, the only reason theyve had to make so many changes so far to the 5.0 gearing system was because of pve content, not pvp. The main reason they don't want to mess around with the way you get gear is because it will mess up pve gearing.

By increasing Bolster they can keep all the gearing system in place. It is also the cheapest and easiest solution to problem. The only resources they need is for someone to go into the algorithm and type in a few numbers and then test it.

 

 

You can't even buy a hilt with a higher rating than 240 and even they can be expensive as hell. The difference between a 240 and 248 hilt is huge. It's 100s of points difference to mainhand damage bonus.

[Kurj]

What would be wrong with 4 levels below max? No one answers this. It isn't too high, it isn't too low.

 

I actually did answer. I think Bolster at 244 trivializes 242 gear, which (I think) will be a disincentive to the average player. I would set it to 240, which is 8 levels below max, just like it was in 4.x. That makes 242 gear worth grinding, and it isn't so far below 248 that newbies feel like rag dolls. I know the bolster in 4.x was fine for me, and I started PVPing at 4.0, so I had no set bonus, etc.

 

As far as the negativity in the thread - I agree. My hope in posting was that we could have an intelligent, mature discussion and try to arrive at some compromise consensus (I know - hahahahahahahaha). If we are just tearing each other apart, the devs will just ignore us and keep on doing what they're doing - and rightly so. We have a lot more in common than not. Look at us - we're the only nerds here who want to argue over this game on a message board. We should try to figure something out for everyone, because the one thing most seem to agree on is that PVP gearing/bolster needs to be fixed.

 

Here is what I propose:

 

1. Set Bolster to 240, 8 levels below max just like in 4.x.

2. Remove 230 gear from loot tables - start Tier 1 at 236. 4 Tiers of gear is too many tiers of gear to grind for new end-game players.

3. Make 236 gear available for tokens only, and at fairly cheap prices so new players can get a full set of optimized set-bonus gear very quickly - like in 2 weeks.

4. Set the Tiers as follows:

Tier 1 (236) - GC ranks 1-89

Tier 2 (242) - GC ranks 90-179

Tier 3 (248) - GC ranks 180-300

5. Current CXP rates seem fine to me - no need to adjust.

 

My thought was that it should take 2/3 of a development cycle for the average player to acquire BiS gear. So, if they are releasing new gear every 6 months, it should take most people 4 months to get BiS gear. That's not so quick that people get bored and unsubscribe, not so slow that people become demoralized and unsubscribe. If folks think what I'm proposing is too quick/too slow, just say why - no need to demonize the people with a different point of view.

 

Again - this isn't a personal attack on anyone else's thoughts, playstyles, etc. I'm just trying to figure out something that a) will work for most people, and b) that there is a chance the devs might go for.

Edited April 28, 2017 by Kurj
Grammar error

[mmmbuddah]

They need to make the 230 gear attainable with tokens only at the very minimum. I cant imagine trying to gear a toon from the ground up in this current system without a main to poach mods/ehn from.

 

It sucks. Let me tell you. xD

[mmmbuddah]

I agree with you, they should just get rid of Tier 1, absolutely.

 

5.1 was an improvement, but you have to remember the first two months before 5.1 came out, there was only one way to get any of the new tiers, and that was from Command crates. There were no UCs until 5.1, even earning CXP was 5 times slower than it is now. There was no gear of any kind dropping in any Operation of any difficulty level from any boss. You either got lucky with a command crate [which 95% of the time, you didnt] or any of the new gear [Tier 1 -3] ]was literally impossible to get.

 

The only reason people were even bothering with Operations and PVP was to earn CXP to grind out a new command level to take a shot at getting something from a command crate. What gear did drop from it, most of the time was green or blue and had no set bonus. Set bonus/Legendary gear were exceedingly rare, much more than now. So you need to take that into consideration because people who are gearing now are in a FAR better place than we were were starting out. Had 5.0 had all the 'amenities' that 5.2 does, I would have gotten geared far quicker, by a month or two.

 

As things stand now, gearing is not at all in a bad place really given the amount of options you have. You can get BIS gear from crates and from PVPing, and you can get gear of Tier 2/Tier 3 in SM/Hm Operations. And for those rare birds that can sucessfully do NiM Operations, you can get Tier 4 BIS gear.

 

That's even even better than gearing was in 4.0.

 

Gearing is the bread and butter of Raiders, that's what drives them [ to a great degree] and BIS gear has always been the sole province of Raiders. If you speed up BIS gearing, you ruin progression raiding who is just now as of 5.2 have had gear returned to Operations in full. You make PVP the superior form of BIS gearing which would be completely unfair given that it had always been gear that ONLY raiders could get from doing Operations.

 

The only fair thing to do here that leaves both Raiders and end game PVPers able to enjoy their respect spheres of preference in a manner they had grown accustomed to is to raise bolster to offset any gear differences and return it to skill vs skill that pvpers want, and leave the BIS Gearing as is, [ or even more fairly, take it out of PVP entirely and only obtainable in raids [for Tiers 1-3). The best part of that strategy is that it's easy as hell to do, requires no altering of how things are done and can be instituted with the flip of the switch back to how bolster was between 5.0-5.1.

 

I know the grinding isn't pleasant, and I know it may be a bit longer than some people might like, but there are plenty of us who have done it and done it under far worse conditions than 5.2. We need to consider the wants of both PVEers and PVPers, the game can't sustain an ever decreasing population. Every player lost because they are unhappy with what the state of their gaming is is one step closer to the game shutting down because of lost revenues of canceled subs.

 

Neither PVE or PVP should have to suffer for the benefit of the other.

 

The bolster upping makes that unnecessary to do. Win/Win.

 

Which is why pvp gear was good.....

[Romeugues]

Dumb topic, skill>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>gear.

Do the math and check the stat differences between what you bolster to and 248 and then tell me how that small difference is your biggest problem, not doing stupid noob stuff like tunneling a merc who popped a DCD, especially reflect since it's so obvious yet people still do it all the time.

[Eli_Porter]

You're arguing that a 10-12% deficit in primary, secondary and bonus damage, and additionally damage reduction and alacrity, coupled with a 5-10% difference in HP is not significant and will not have a chilling effect on alt play or be a barrier to new players, especially ranked?

 

I disagree.

 

There are several barriers to new players. I'll list them in order of importance:

 

1. Skill gap

2. Premades

3. Class imbalance

4. Having no augments/having high acc/def/shield or not knowing how to gear in general

5. Bolster buffing up to 10% below BiS

 

The prevailing theory in this thread is that BECAUSE newbies are so overwhelmed with barriers, getting rid of the bolster issue will fix things up. My argument is that keeping bolster the way it is now will retain its goal of keeping players engaged as they see tangible improvement in their gear as they play, since bolster isn't the most significant of the newbie barriers anyway.

 

What I fear threads like these do, is heighten the importance of the bolster gap to ridiculous levels, and making newbies believe it's the only barrier worth caring about rather than: Get better at the game, get into a group to counter premades, ask devs to fix their class or play a PvP class, and optimize their gear.

[Icykill_]

You can't even buy a hilt with a higher rating than 240 and even they can be expensive as hell. The difference between a 240 and 248 hilt is huge. It's 100s of points difference to mainhand damage bonus.

 

I thought as much. I stopped looking at them when I saw the 1.5mil price tag as the gear lvl went up.

 

In a match yesterday (before my internet went down) there was a another sniper on my team in very high gear and it wasn't even BiS yet

Anyway I looked over the stats and there was a very big gap between my mixed tier one with some tier two piece setup. It made me do a double take because I thought it must be wrong.

They had approximately 600-700 more Primary damage stats and about 7000 more health.

Edited April 28, 2017 by Icykill_

[Eli_Porter]

You can't even buy a hilt with a higher rating than 240 and even they can be expensive as hell. The difference between a 240 and 248 hilt is huge. It's 100s of points difference to mainhand damage bonus.

 

Yep, they really need to release those iokath mats for 246.

[Icykill_]

Yep, they really need to release those iokath mats for 246.

 

And make them available at the jawa vendors. 😉

Edited April 28, 2017 by Icykill_

[Evolixe]

Because 4 tiers of gear is too much to grind. What they should do is remove Tier 1 gear from the loot tables and make Tier 2 the entry level of gear.

 

Yeap.

[Kurj]

There are several barriers to new players. I'll list them in order of importance:

 

1. Skill gap

2. Premades

3. Class imbalance

4. Having no augments/having high acc/def/shield or not knowing how to gear in general

5. Bolster buffing up to 10% below BiS

 

The prevailing theory in this thread is that BECAUSE newbies are so overwhelmed with barriers, getting rid of the bolster issue will fix things up. My argument is that keeping bolster the way it is now will retain its goal of keeping players engaged as they see tangible improvement in their gear as they play, since bolster isn't the most significant of the newbie barriers anyway.

 

What I fear threads like these do, is heighten the importance of the bolster gap to ridiculous levels, and making newbies believe it's the only barrier worth caring about rather than: Get better at the game, get into a group to counter premades, ask devs to fix their class or play a PvP class, and optimize their gear.

 

The bolster argument is a small part of what I'm addressing. I only suggest increasing it from 238 to 240. The larger issue in my mind is the additional Tier of gear, as well as the time to acquire an initial set of optimized set bonus gear. No question that skill > all, but new players facing a skill gap should not start out that far behind in gear. I think the combination of the 2 may be overwhelming and lead folks to just give up.

[Eli_Porter]

Like I said earlier, T1 crates give you optimized left side gear (mk-3) which is currently up to par with 240 crafted when bolstered up. In addition you get a decent chance at set bonus gear, since you get lots of crates for your CXP. They also give you stuff you could sell on the GTN to buy top tier gear with.

 

Also, UC's let you skip T1 entirely, though I wouldn't advise anyone to buy T2 unassembled pieces unless they need that 6th set piece. Perhaps a main hand as well, but that's only if you can upgrade it to T3 (since you can't buy 246 hilts/barrels right now).

Edited April 28, 2017 by Eli_Porter

[DarthRaika]

I actually did answer. I think Bolster at 244 trivializes 242 gear, which (I think) will be a disincentive to the average player. I would set it to 240, which is 8 levels below max, just like it was in 4.x. That makes 242 gear worth grinding, and it isn't so far below 248 that newbies feel like rag dolls. I know the bolster in 4.x was fine for me, and I started PVPing at 4.0, so I had no set bonus, etc.

 

As far as the negativity in the thread - I agree. My hope in posting was that we could have an intelligent, mature discussion and try to arrive at some compromise consensus (I know - hahahahahahahaha). If we are just tearing each other apart, the devs will just ignore us and keep on doing what they're doing - and rightly so. We have a lot more in common than not. Look at us - we're the only nerds here who want to argue over this game on a message board. We should try to figure something out for everyone, because the one thing most seem to agree on is that PVP gearing/bolster needs to be fixed.

 

Here is what I propose:

 

1. Set Bolster to 240, 8 levels below max just like in 4.x.

2. Remove 230 gear from loot tables - start Tier 1 at 236. 4 Tiers of gear is too many tiers of gear to grind for new end-game players.

3. Make 236 gear available for tokens only, and at fairly cheap prices so new players can get a full set of optimized set-bonus gear very quickly - like in 2 weeks.

4. Set the Tiers as follows:

Tier 1 (236) - GC ranks 1-89

Tier 2 (242) - GC ranks 90-179

Tier 3 (248) - GC ranks 180-300

5. Current CXP rates seem fine to me - no need to adjust.

 

My thought was that it should take 2/3 of a development cycle for the average player to acquire BiS gear. So, if they are releasing new gear every 6 months, it should take most people 4 months to get BiS gear. That's not so quick that people get bored and unsubscribe, not so slow that people become demoralized and unsubscribe. If folks think what I'm proposing is too quick/too slow, just say why - no need to demonize the people with a different point of view.

 

Again - this isn't a personal attack on anyone else's thoughts, playstyles, etc. I'm just trying to figure out something that a) will work for most people, and b) that there is a chance the devs might go for.

 

I would be fine with all of this and if they did it this way I think a 240 bolster would work almost as well as what I am saying. However, you are asking for a lot from BW.

 

If there is one thing I've learned working for large corporations over the years it is to make things as simple and easy as possible and to go for the low hanging fruit first. Bolster to 244 would do everything you are aiming for except make 242 not as useful. However, this is just a side effect of making pvp and pve gear one in the same. PVE players need more tiers of gear. I don't pve but I understand this. Bolster to 244 is much easier to rally around.

 

Also, Icykill, I agree bolster to 246 would be even better but 246 to 248 is not really worth grinding for. 244 to 248 is a small gap but still large enough to see a noticeable difference (like how 208 was worth grinding for when 204 was pretty much a freebie). While I would prefer bolster to 250, I understand the arguments against it and while I don't agree with them completely I can see some validity. I also know BW does want to promote grinding.

Edited April 28, 2017 by DarthRaika

[DarthRaika]

Dumb topic, skill>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>gear.

Do the math and check the stat differences between what you bolster to and 248 and then tell me how that small difference is your biggest problem, not doing stupid noob stuff like tunneling a merc who popped a DCD, especially reflect since it's so obvious yet people still do it all the time.

 

This is the worst kind of logic and you should really work on how you see things.

 

Skill does matter the most (i.e. I took two dps sorcs in mostly 208 gear to gold this season), however that doesn't mean you just ignore everything else. This is about as simple minded as someone can get.

[DarthRaika]

There are several barriers to new players. I'll list them in order of importance:

 

1. Skill gap

2. Premades

3. Class imbalance

4. Having no augments/having high acc/def/shield or not knowing how to gear in general

5. Bolster buffing up to 10% below BiS

 

The prevailing theory in this thread is that BECAUSE newbies are so overwhelmed with barriers, getting rid of the bolster issue will fix things up. My argument is that keeping bolster the way it is now will retain its goal of keeping players engaged as they see tangible improvement in their gear as they play, since bolster isn't the most significant of the newbie barriers anyway.

 

What I fear threads like these do, is heighten the importance of the bolster gap to ridiculous levels, and making newbies believe it's the only barrier worth caring about rather than: Get better at the game, get into a group to counter premades, ask devs to fix their class or play a PvP class, and optimize their gear.

 

I haven't seen anyone in this thread say that if bolster is fixed new players will be wrecking wz's and destroying everyone.

 

New players will still be new and they will still be worse than skilled players even if bolster is set to 250. Nothing can be done to fix this.

 

Matchmaking and class balance are major issues as well but are more complex and are separate subjects.

 

Not knowing how to gear/etc. is only magnified by a low bolster. No relevance to your argument.

 

Even at high levels of business it is never about making something perfect. You aim for low hanging fruit and aim for the smallest change with the biggest impact first. This is bolster. It would be almost trivial (outside of some QA) to set bolster to 244 and it would make pvp BETTER (not perfect).

 

After this simple fix, I would love some work on class balancing and matchmaking and I would love it if augments didn't matter in pvp. However, these improvements are separate topics and not as simple as a change to bolster. There are threads on these topics and I've stated my opinions in them. This thread is about the gear gap though.

 

Also, to your "worry". That is pitiful. First of all, most new players aren't reading this forum and secondly there is no logic behind it even if they were. Finally, if bolster was fixed it would immediately be obvious to them that it wasn't the only barrier.

 

You are someone who is benefiting from the gear gap and you are finally feeling like a decent pvp'r. Well I'm sorry but gear doesn't make you a better pvp'r it just makes you appear to be a better pvp'r. If you want to push past your current levels then it takes understanding your shortcomings and working to overcome them. Your reliance on a gear gap is one of them.

Edited April 28, 2017 by DarthRaika

[jedcjedcjedc]

My primary damage being bolstered was 3993. My primary damage at about half 248/246/242 with the rest 240 is just under 4400 - and that's with a 240 hilt. Just stop.

 

What class are you? and are you just using the bigger half of the damage range? because my merc has 1x 240 7x242 and 6x248 and he still has 3,393-4,295. As you can see there is about a 1k difference in that range there so only using the highest part is a bit misleading.

 

I've said multiple times I don't care either way, but I do at least prefer there be an actual reason to gear and not be just because how shiny it is (Gemini Merc armor looks like the white rangers part of megazord, as in, its terrible). I'll be continuing to pvp with my alts just as much as my main just as I have before.

 

Because 4 tiers of gear is too much to grind. What they should do is remove Tier 1 gear from the loot tables and make Tier 2 the entry level of gear.

t2 is the starting tier for components and raids, the only place they haven't replaced it is in the r1-90 crates. there's also going to be a vendor for t1 for command tokens

Edited April 28, 2017 by jedcjedcjedc

[Eli_Porter]

I haven't seen anyone in this thread say that if bolster is fixed new players will be wrecking wz's and destroying everyone.

 

I wasn't implying that. I'm saying there are quite a few newbie barriers, and bolster gap is the least impactful of the lot. So removing that barrier isn't going to have the positive effect some of you believe.

 

New players will still be new and they will still be worse than skilled players even if bolster is set to 250. Nothing can be done to fix this.

 

But having gear progression keeps them trying to improve, as there are rewarding incentives.

 

Matchmaking and class balance are major issues as well but are more complex and are separate subjects.

 

But still have the potential of being more impactful than bolster gap. Some disciplines are just utter trash in PvP.

 

Not knowing how to gear/etc. is only magnified by a low bolster. No relevance to your argument.

 

There are ways to address that though. Making augments more accessible to new players (Or make augments part of bolster as you suggested) and changing how crit interacts with defense/shield.

 

Even at high levels of business it is never about making something perfect. You aim for low hanging fruit and aim for the smallest change with the biggest impact first. This is bolster. It would be almost trivial (outside of some QA) to set bolster to 244 and it would make pvp BETTER (not perfect).

 

While the change may appear trivial, bolster is set to 238 for a reason. It keeps gear progression alive and doesn't render low to mid tiers of command rank irrelevant.

 

Also, to your "worry". That is pitiful. First of all, most new players aren't reading this forum and secondly there is no logic behind it even if they were. Finally, if bolster was fixed it would immediately be obvious to them that it wasn't the only barrier.

 

You are someone who is benefiting from the gear gap and you are finally feeling like a decent pvp'r. Well I'm sorry but gear doesn't make you a better pvp'r it just makes you appear to be a better pvp'r. If you want to push past your current levels then it takes understanding your shortcomings and working to overcome them. Your reliance on a gear gap is one of them.

 

Calling me a trash PvP'er that needs a gear advantage isn't really helping your argument in any way. As I said I want bolster in the game not because I need a crutch to overcome some kind of PvP learning disability, but because it keeps gear progression relevant in PvP which in turn incentivizes players to learn and overcome the other barriers.

Edited April 28, 2017 by Eli_Porter

[Kurj]

snip

 

 

t2 is the starting tier for components and raids, the only place they haven't replaced it is in the r1-90 crates. there's also going to be a vendor for t1 for command tokens

 

Understood, and that's what I was pushing for, to remove it from loot tables and start at the current Tier 2, and also to make the current Tier 2 available for tokens only. The current Tier 1 just seems like a wasted tier of gear at this point. While it will still get you set bonus quickly (at least once they implement the token option), it seems disincentivizing to require new players to grind through 2 essentially useless tiers of gear, given bolster at 238.

[DarthRaika]

I wasn't implying that. I'm saying there are quite a few newbie barriers, and bolster gap is the least impactful of the lot. So removing that barrier isn't going to have the positive effect some of you believe.

 

 

 

But having gear progression keeps them trying to improve, as there are rewarding incentives.

 

 

 

But still have the potential of being more impactful than bolster gap. Some disciplines are just utter trash in PvP.

 

 

 

There are ways to address that though. Making augments more accessible to new players (Or make augments part of bolster as you suggested) and changing how crit interacts with defense/shield.

 

 

 

While the change may appear trivial, bolster is set to 238 for a reason. It keeps gear progression alive and doesn't render low to mid tiers of command rank irrelevant.

 

 

 

Calling me a trash PvP'er that needs a gear advantage isn't really helping your argument in any way. As I said I want bolster in the game not because I need a crutch to overcome some kind of PvP learning disability, but because it keeps gear progression relevant in PvP which in turn incentivizes players to learn and overcome the other barriers.

 

Your entire argument is flawed. The new pvp'r you speak of will not be in 208's as I was lucky enough to be in. They will still have gear progression even with bolster set at 244. Also, with how random GC crates are most of them will continue to see progression up until the final gear tier. So your entire argument is moot.

 

Now, if we go to the experienced pvp'r with multiple alts, they will benefit from a higher bolster and since they are just playing alts they don't need the gear progression feeling you think is so important.

[Eli_Porter]

Your entire argument is flawed. The new pvp'r you speak of will not be in 208's as I was lucky enough to be in. They will still have gear progression even with bolster set at 244. Also, with how random GC crates are most of them will continue to see progression up until the final gear tier. So your entire argument is moot.

 

As it is right now, players can stop seeing gear upgrades benefiting them in PvP when they reach T2. With 244 bolster, this would extend to T3. I think an important point you may be raising is: "New players don't care about how bolster works, an upgrade in GC is an upgrade for them even if it doesn't actually give them a benefit in PvP". In which case, bolster set at 244 won't have the negative anti-progression effect I'm talking about. For newbies, anyway.

 

Now, if we go to the experienced pvp'r with multiple alts, they will benefit from a higher bolster and since they are just playing alts they don't need the gear progression feeling you think is so important.

 

So for experienced PvP players who know how bolster works, they now get a bunch of alts with mostly useless T1-T3 crates apart from sellable loot and 242's. I'm not one to say which is worse, since I do PvE as well as PvP so this wouldn't affect me negatively.

Edited April 28, 2017 by Eli_Porter

[stoopicus]

What class are you?

 

Skank Immortal Jugg.

 

and are you just using the bigger half of the damage range? because my merc has 1x 240 7x242 and 6x248 and he still has 3,393-4,295. As you can see there is about a 1k difference in that range there so only using the highest part is a bit misleading.

 

That was just the top of the range, but how is that misleading? The bottom number is about 10% off too for my ~60% upgraded Jugg. I just reported the delta in the top damage number but the bottom of the rage was similarly affected. The point is the percentage change of the number, not its absolute value.

[Eli_Porter]

If you're skanking it, I'm assuming when you say "half-upgraded" you mean those 240 discipline and lethal b's. When the 246 versions come out, you won't get a lot more power because that mod/enhancement combination is quite low on that front.

[stoopicus]

If you're skanking it, I'm assuming when you say "half-upgraded" you mean those 240 discipline and lethal b's. When the 246 versions come out, you won't get a lot more power because that mod/enhancement combination is quite low on that front.

 

Guess again, I roll unlettered Lethal Mod and Adept/Quick Savant. I don't need the extra endurance so much (it's good but not required, you get a ton on augs as well), whereas Immortal is so bursty I prefer optimizing Mastery/Power, and I actually like a little alacrity. And with DR at 51% and high HP Immortal is very survivable already.

 

I started with B-mods and discipline but I like my current mix better. I hit very, very hard for a Jugg. YMMV.

Edited April 29, 2017 by stoopicus

[Icykill_]

I would be fine with all of this and if they did it this way I think a 240 bolster would work almost as well as what I am saying. However, you are asking for a lot from BW.

 

If there is one thing I've learned working for large corporations over the years it is to make things as simple and easy as possible and to go for the low hanging fruit first. Bolster to 244 would do everything you are aiming for except make 242 not as useful. However, this is just a side effect of making pvp and pve gear one in the same. PVE players need more tiers of gear. I don't pve but I understand this. Bolster to 244 is much easier to rally around.

 

Also, Icykill, I agree bolster to 246 would be even better but 246 to 248 is not really worth grinding for. 244 to 248 is a small gap but still large enough to see a noticeable difference (like how 208 was worth grinding for when 204 was pretty much a freebie). While I would prefer bolster to 250, I understand the arguments against it and while I don't agree with them completely I can see some validity. I also know BW does want to promote grinding.

 

The point of view from the skill vs skill pvpers is we don't need gear progression in pvp, we never have. We will pvp naked if it gives us a skill vs skill experience as we've done in the past when Bolster broke.

 

From my point of view and many others who only pvp,

"we will pvp more" if we don't have to worry about big gear gaps and massive grinds

"we will pvp less" if have big gear gaps that take more than two weeks to close.

Gear in pvp is really just bling for us and for being able to just "tweak" some stats.

 

What we are asking for is a lvl playing field in pvp that takes gear out of the equation. Having Bolster at 246 would give us that lvl playing field and still allow those who want to push on for a very small reward in gear advantage, which most people who only pvp will never have. But 244 would probably work too and would be better than what it currently is.

 

This whole gear grind thing has always been a pve thing. It's important to that part of the community because that's their reward for playing the same scripted OPs over and over. Our reward is winning against better people. We don't really need a gear carrot to play more. Even for ranked rewards people don't ask for better gear stats, they want bling rewards like cool weapons or mounts.

 

There are 3 groups of people invested in this discussion -

 

1. PvP only people who don't need gear, dont want a gear gap and just want skill based pvp. (We will always be behind the other 2 groups because grinding this gear through pvp only is the slowest and most tedious way to do it. In the mean time we are playing against people with a clear advantage over us. That is not skill based pvp and is not fun)

 

2. PVP + PvE people who don't need gear for skill based pvp, but need it for when they do pve. (These guys have an advantage over the other 2 groups because they are using both formats of the game to BiS the fastest. Most of the gear gap is from these people. They aren't new pvpers either, so they have skill and a gear gap to give them a huge advantage over other pvpers)

 

3. PVE only (normally) who rely on gear to play their content. (These are currently the guys grinding out the highest gear in OPs)

 

I believe it's group 2 who are the most reluctant to increase Bolster as it reduces their gear gap advantage. IMO a lot of those in group 2 are the most vocal about it not being increased and aren't real skill vs skill pvpers. They rely on a gear gap to give them an advantage. Obviously they aren't as good at pvp as they would lead you to believe or they wouldn't need that advantage.

 

Bio can solve this problem without it affecting pve gear progression by just increasing Bolster to 244/246. People can still grind gear for pve in both pvp and pve content, but it would only be relevant in pve. Then pvp is only skill based and not gear based. I think most skill pvpers would prefer this.

 

As you know we used to have pvp gear with expertise to seperate the pve gear grinders from taking an easy path to gear through pvp. People who played both formats of the game often felt this wasn't fair because they needed two sets of gear and highend pve people were penalised for wearing their NiM gear. It didn't matter that you could fully gear for BiS pvp in a few weeks. Even when you entered pvp in base 190 gear there wasn't the gap that there currently is. It took less than a week to gear in 204 and another in 208.

The biggest difference between that 190 green gear and the 204 gear was the set bonus because Bolster was set above the 208 gear for some reason and this made the gap between 190 to 204 very small.

When 5.0 released it was 250, which leads me to believe they just increased it by a percentage based on the old Bolster that was above the 208. Before they nerfed the 250 Bolster it seemed to be nearly exactly the same in gear discrepancy as it was in 4.x and working as intended. I believe they nerfed it not because it was wrong, but to create a gear gap on purpose and to "make people grind gear harder in pvp" in the hope they would play the game longer. This has had the reverse affect by actually making dedicated pvpers play less. I can't understand why they can't see how this was the worst thing they could have done to pvp. They already had it correct and then they purposely broke it to fit the failed RNG agenda they were pushing.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong (which is possible as I'm tired)

204 to 208 is a 1.92% difference (the old pvp gear difference)

234 to 248 is a 5.64% difference

236 to 248 is a 4.83% difference

238 to 248 is a 4.03% difference

240 to 248 is a 3.22% difference

242 to 248 is a 2.41% difference

244 to 248 is a 1.61% difference (this is probably the closest to the old system, but still with an unacceptable grind to BiS)

246 to 248 is a 0.80% difference (I believe this is the best setting because people "who only pvp" to gear will never reach 248 BiS before Bio change the gear lvl again.

 

Having a gear gap is detrimental to pvp, others have explained why so I won't go over that again.

But here is the result of having the gear gap.

- Skill based pvpers are turned off and play the game less or leave and unsub.

- Gear based pvpers run around like gods destroying everyone's fun who don't have BiS

- PvP becomes an even more toxic play ground

- More and more people stop pvping or only do it to get better gear for pve and often afk and not try.

- All skill goes out of pvp because it's gear vs gear

- Ultimately this destroys pvp in the game.

- The only people left in pvp are the special snowflake BiS gear gods who only seem to be good because they have top gear.

 

Bioware are shooting themselves in the foot if they don't address this gear gap and increase Bolster to at least 244 or even better 246. Lots of skill based pvpers have left in disgust. Others like myself are hanging on by our finger nails to see if it changes. I was already to let my sub expire until Keith replied to my post to say they are going to address many of these issue in the road map. But that is the last chance I will be giving them. If nothing changes in that road map I will leave the same as lots of others already have and many more who are waiting will.

You'd think losing subs would ring the alarm bells. I'm not so sure, but with Ben leaving and Keith taking over it would seem Ben was pushed aside because of the decreasing sub revenue. If this still isn't fixed then that sub decline will only get worse. Fingers crossed that Keith has been given enough leeway to make big enough changes to fix this.

 

Sorry for the long essay, but I had a lot to say on this subject and I figured it was better than making 20 posts to make my point.

Edited April 29, 2017 by Icykill_

[Balameb]

Correct me if I'm wrong (which is possible as I'm tired)

204 to 208 is a 1.92% difference (the old pvp gear difference)

234 to 248 is a 5.64% difference

236 to 248 is a 4.83% difference

238 to 248 is a 4.03% difference

240 to 248 is a 3.22% difference

242 to 248 is a 2.41% difference

244 to 248 is a 1.61% difference (this is probably the closest to the old system, but still with an unacceptable grind to BiS)

246 to 248 is a 0.80% difference (I believe this is the best setting because people "who only pvp" to gear will never reach 248 BiS before Bio change the gear lvl again.

 

Sorry to intrude. Those number represent the difference in rating number. I know you used that to ilustrate the 4.X gap compared to current one but i would like to add that the Stat gap in % of current bolster/BIS gear is actually bigger.

For example, from 238 to 248 is about 4% difference in the rating number, but the stats can be over 16%.

 

https://torcommunity.com/database/item/Hr2tuX4/iokath+mk1+forcemasters+lightsaber/

https://torcommunity.com/database/item/7zRpzpB/gemini+mk5+forcemasters+lightsaber/

 

The 248 represents Over 16% of stats increase over the current bolster of 238. I only check a few of the items so far and the 16%+ looks to be for most gear if not all. In 5.1 the gap from 232 to 242 was about 13% and "almost" bis could be crafted.