5.2 Gear Gap even worse pvp. Keith please fix.

[TUXs]

Back in 4.x, the 204 gear was readily available, but the 208 gear took a bit of work to get. There was a tiny gear gap, mainly felt by the casual PvPers, but it was never significant enough that I (as a casual PvPer who never bothered to upgrade) though it was significant. (Of course, the 204 gear also carried set bonus, but I'm not feeling like opening that can of worms today)

248 BiS vs 248 non-BiS...that's far less of a gap than 204 vs 208.

[Azidahka]

TL;DR: Zulthon liked the 250 Bolster in PvP.

 

I think galactic command is absolutely awful, in both its past and current iterations. That said, I think the supposedly accidental 250 bolster of 5.0 gave us the best PvP bolster system this game has seen to date. Let's be honest, while 4.0 gave us the easiest PvP gearing we had ever seen, that gearing and bolster system probably contributed to some of the most imbalanced matches (player state-wise) because we regularly had players with full expertise 208s crushing players in PvE gear (who either didn't know any better or just couldn't be bothered to obtain at least 2018 expertise with SoR greens or PvP 204s). Lol, the expertise disparity was sometimes so bad that IT, rather than who had the most sage/sorc heals, determined the outcome of the match in 4.0!

 

During the 5.0 250 bolster month(s?), so long as you had gear in each slot, your stats were good and competitive. Achieving near-BiS was as simple as rearranging your tertiary stats in a way that was beneficial to your spec. Justifiable claims of 5.0+ class imbalance notwithstanding---such as merc defenses being op, sniper root spam being op, telekinetics sage needing a buff, etc---5.0's bolster made for the most balanced PvP bolster/gear system (to be clear: not classes!) that I have seen in Swtor (I started playing in Jan 2012). Also, the 5.0 250 bolster didn't (imo) cheapen the work raiders put into their gear/ difficulty mode progression because PvPer's were only receiving these bolsterd near-BiS stats in specific player vs player instances.

 

For newer players. or for PvE'ers who might not understand where some of us PvP'ers are coming from, you have to understand that several years ago Bioware abandoned a much hated RNG-based PvP gearing system and allowed us to buy individual gear pieces from vendors with warzone commendations. Since then, Bioware has been gradually reducing the grind for BiS PvP gear....and then in 4.0, "easily attainable gear" practically became the official mantra, as the commendation costs for BiS PvP gear were drastically reduced, individual player com capacity was drastically increased, and coms could finally be transferred across your legacy. Add to that the fact that Bioware also heavily encouraged the creation of alts with the Dark vs Light event; I'm sure many PvP'ers took this event as an invitation to invest time and energy into a new class or spec. For years (and especially during 4.0, thanks to the increased convenience), many of us had become accustomed to saving up warzone coms across our legacy in order to purchase BiS PvP gear for our alts; Bioware gave us little advanced warning that 5.0. would totally change PvP gearing and I imagine many of us felt insulted by the pittance of galactic credits Bioware offered us for our now useless warzone coms (some of us had hundreds of thousands stored up for 5.0....the result of YEARS of PvPing and saving coms) As such, the 5.0 galactic command seemed like an abrupt about-face back to the days of Battlemaster RNG bags (which were hated so much that they were replaced with the warzone com system that evolved into what we had during 4.0).

 

The eventual discovery that the 5.0 PvP instances were bolstering players to 250 gear rating, a rating above the highest gear rating of 242, was a silver-lining that compensated for a good deal of the ill will that the 5.0 gearing change generated in relation to PvP gearing. When BIoware realized their bolster "mistake," they lowered the bolster to 232, and now, thanks to the massive grind and RNG nature of GC crates, we are witnessing a noticeable gear disparity between fresh level 70s/casuals/great PvP'ers with less time to grind/etc and skilled PvP'ers with the time to delicate to gearing in full 248s. While I am not willing to go so far as say that the disparity is so bad that gear always trumps skill, I am of the opinion that this gear disparity is NOT good for the general health of SWTOR PvP.

 

Side note: Players that say they need a gear grind to incentivize PvP leave me mind-boggled. If competing against other players and teams isn't a reason to play in and of it self, then SWTOR PvP just might not be your cup of tea.

 

~Zulthon

[kodrac]

Already with the name dropping. That didn't take long.

[TUXs]

Side note: Players that say they need a gear grind to incentivize PvP leave me mind-boggled. If competing against other players and teams isn't a reason to play in and of it self, then SWTOR PvP just might not be your cup of tea.

 

~Zulthon

Yet this is ALL SWTOR has ever been, by design from BIOWARE. Gear based. Gear driven. Gear dominated. Gear incentivized.

[Rion_Starkiller]

Yeah, you have to have that gear carrot. The gap between gear and bolster just needs to be shortened. Edited April 21, 2017 by Rion_Starkiller

[IanArgent]

248 BiS vs 248 non-BiS...that's far less of a gap than 204 vs 208.

 

I know it doesn't happen all that often, but I was agreeing with you

 

Yet this is ALL SWTOR has ever been, by design from BIOWARE. Gear based. Gear driven. Gear dominated. Gear incentivized.

 

Outside of PvP (at least as I played it from 3.x onwards; mostly in 4x). 4x, there was basically no gear treadmill. There were other problems with PvP (man, I miss that "Game is dying" thread, there was a level of humor lacking in the post 5.x ones), but between the bolster and the availability of entry-level PvP gear, PvP was accessible to the casual player.

[Rion_Starkiller]

Side note: Players that say they need a gear grind to incentivize PvP leave me mind-boggled. If competing against other players and teams isn't a reason to play in and of it self, then SWTOR PvP just might not be your cup of tea.

 

You will eventually get bored of the same old problems, same old maps: No call-outs, pug vs premade, etc.

 

As an avid PvP'er, I need some incentive, otherwise I'm just chasing my own tail. PvP isn't infinite. It gets easy to predict results -- often just by looking at your team vs opponent team.

Edited April 21, 2017 by Rion_Starkiller

[Azidahka]

Yet this is ALL SWTOR has ever been, by design from BIOWARE. Gear based. Gear driven. Gear dominated. Gear incentivized.

 

Yeah, the joke was on me for thinking things were changing and 250 bolster was intentional lol. I guess I had just assumed that it was a logical next step from the easy pvp gearing of 4.0. and a smart way side step what would otherwise seem like a total reversal of easy pvp gearing. 5.1 set me straight!

[TUXs]

I know it doesn't happen all that often, but I was agreeing with you

 

Outside of PvP (at least as I played it from 3.x onwards; mostly in 4x). 4x, there was basically no gear treadmill. There were other problems with PvP (man, I miss that "Game is dying" thread, there was a level of humor lacking in the post 5.x ones), but between the bolster and the availability of entry-level PvP gear, PvP was accessible to the casual player.

Sorry And yes, I think 4.x gearing was great. PvPers could easily get a full set of 204 gear in a matter of hours (tops). 208 took a little more time, but it was something rewarding to work towards. I don't know of a single person who quit because they had too much gear...they quit because of the lack of new content, which is now being changed...thankfully!!!

[TUXs]

PvP isn't infinite. It gets easy to predict results -- often just by looking at your team vs opponent team.

 

So true...

It goes something like this:

• *queue for WZ*

• 30-seconds pass

• *POP*

• excited anticipation as I accept

• Hypergates...could be good, just depends on how my team looks...

• Load in...look around...realize I'm still a Pub...

[Azidahka]

You will eventually get bored of the same old problems, same old maps: No call-outs, pug vs premade, etc.

 

As an avid PvP'er, I need some incentive, otherwise I'm just chasing my own tail. PvP isn't infinite. It gets easy to predict results -- often just by looking at your team vs opponent team.

 

Oh I've been there, experienced that, and often will just log off for days...weeks..etc if it PvP ceases to be fun for me.

 

Just spit-balling some ideas here, don't know if they are good lol. But personally, I'd just rather the incentive be new and well designed maps and pvp modes to learn, unique vanity rewards that are pvp exclusive and won't be reused or sold on the cartel market, a just for fun leader board that keeps track of things other than ranked arenas, and (importantly) a real sense that the devs care about improving and expanding the pvp experience. C'mon Bioware do better.

Edited April 21, 2017 by Azidahka

[kodrac]

So true...

It goes something like this:

• *queue for WZ*

• 30-seconds pass

• *POP*

• excited anticipation as I accept

• Hypergates...

 

This is why I quit warzones way back when. Not because of balance, not because of supposed bad PvPer attitudes, not even because of PvE heroes mucking up bolster, but because of fooking hypergates.every.damn.time.

Edited April 21, 2017 by kodrac

[IanArgent]

I will note that, on my imp chars, I have been getting a fair number of Imp v Imp "simulations" as of late. I haven't really been doing PvP on my pubs, so I can't say what's happening there.

[Raynezazki]

This is why I quit warzones way back when. Not because of balance, not because of supposed bad PvPer attitudes, not even because of PvE heroes mucking up bolster, but because of fooking hypergates.every.damn.time.

 

I got 5 huttballs in a row against the same team full of healers and tanks while my team had nothing but dps. I was so done.

[themachinemann]

Expertise was a main pvp stat, if you didn't have it and wore high lvl gear you actually hurt yourself.

Pve people used to be extremely vocal about it and said they should remove expertise because they didn't think it was fair that they had spent all this time grinding NiM bosses and now their gear was rubbish in Pvp. When all they needed to do was 1-2 weeks of casual pvp at max lvl to get gear or if they'd bothered to pvp before max level, they could collect Comms and nearly be geared when they hit max lvl. They are now the same people advocating a gear gap because they want to have an advantage. These are the same ones who complained about playing casual pvp for a few weeks to get pvp gear, but now they are able to do all their NM OPs and get better gear faster than pvpers can for pvp, they are happy with the system.

 

you hit the nail on the head, then jumped off a cliff. expertise created the gap in pvp and pve gear and allowed pvpers to gear quickly without impacting progression pve. then you claim nim raiders complained about pvp gear. lol.

 

expertise needed to be eliminated because bads only looked at gear rating and didn't understand expertise nor looked at forum threads. removing said expertise removed any confusion while also removing questions around bis. some thought that'd solve problems but lets face it: said people would still be thrashed even if you gave them perfect gear. and it's the same now - gear is an excuse, even though they'd be thrashed if you gave them equal gear. and if it's not gear it's class or hacks or anything really. and on the contrary i could give so many examples of people achieving amazing numbers, survivability, etc in mediocre gear.

 

though i don't see any tangible evidence for an ever increasing gear gap, i'll put this out there. adding more defensives and utilities hasn't helped average joe survive longer because he doesn't use them. as proof, mercs that don't take trauma regulators, maras that facetank repeatedly and don't use dcd's or snipers that get globaled because they never use entrench. an experienced pvper, even nim raider, understands his/her defensives, utilities, positioning, keybinds etc and thus dominates. not the point of this thread, but perhaps the gap seems greater due to that.

 

so what's your proposed solution in all this? go back to expertise? the other option is to bolster everyone to exactly the same stats and take away choice (wrt gear and stats distribution) or take away one of the extrinsic rewards for regular pvp.

Edited April 21, 2017 by themachinemann

[Icykill_]

This bickering and complaining nonsense will continue until the studio finally makes gear NOT matter, making everyone bolstered to the same exact thresholds, and thus making PvP about skill not gear candy. People who use gear to overcome shortfalls in skill will of course complain, but personally I don't consider these players to be serious PvPers. If they were serious PvPers, skill, tactics, and teamwork would be what they are focused on.

 

Seriously... (HEY KEITH!!) just bolster PvPers to the highest gear level in game, and you remove all the gearing complaints in the context of PvP.

 

Inb4 "Wait.. wait.. what about getting gear rewards for PvP??!!"... by all means reward gear as well as other candy for performance.. and said gear (since there is not real gear difference now between PvP and PvE) can be used for anything and everything in game.

 

For once I am in 100% agreement with Andryah 😘

[IanArgent]

For once I am in 100% agreement with Andryah 😘

 

TUXs and I agreeing, you and Andryah agreeing. It is indeed the end times

[stoopicus]

TUXs and I agreeing, you and Andryah agreeing. It is indeed the end times

 

Seriously, I'm scared

[Icykill_]

Yeah, the joke was on me for thinking things were changing and 250 bolster was intentional lol. I guess I had just assumed that it was a logical next step from the easy pvp gearing of 4.0. and a smart way side step what would otherwise seem like a total reversal of easy pvp gearing. 5.1 set me straight!

 

They take 1 step forward and 4 back, then take a step sideways and say they did something to help.

Since they reduced Bolster everyone has been complaining and telling them it needs to be reversed and why.

They must have seen the rage at this and they must realise it is hurting pvp.

The obvious solution that appeases the players, makes pvp about skill and is easy to do, plus costs no resources is to increase Bolster to the 5.0 original setting.

Gearing is still relevant because pve people need it outside of pvp and pvpers need to at least get gear with set bonuses.

Not only that, it also becomes alt friendly and we can start playing those multitude of alts "they" encouraged us to make for the DVL event.

 

What really pisses me off about the DvL event is they promoted it hard and were "happy to take our money" to open new slots for new alts. I spent money opening new ones because "that was the only way I could participate" as current characters couldn't be used even if they weren't max lvl. (I made 5 new toons for that event). I'm sure like me, others expected 5.0 to be the age of the Alt's. Even thinking about it now and how they royally "bleeped us over" with the DvL event makes me so angry because they knew, they actually knew before they started it, that all those alts would be useless in 5.0. I was surprised there wasn't rage on the forums about it. But 5.0 gearing etc was a crap Storm and everyone was focused on the RNG that they overlooked and forget how underhanded and crooked Bioware systematically shafted us by taking money under false pretences. I can't say this enough, "they bloody knew all those alts would be worthless in 5.0". I can just see them laughing at us like it's some be troll joke.

 

(Sorry guys, I didn't realise just how pissed off I still was about that till I started typing)

 

Since 5.0 they have made one mistake after another. Alienating or pissing off every part of the population. They've been driving people from the game and it's only getting worse. I can see why Charles isn't there anymore.

I just hope Keith listens and acts in the best interest of the players and it's not to late to save the game.

[Icykill_]

Seriously, I'm scared

 

It's a conspiracy, we're really just one person with 4 accounts trying to take over swtor 😉

 

Bahahaha 😂

[Icykill_]

I got 5 huttballs in a row against the same team full of healers and tanks while my team had nothing but dps. I was so done.

 

You can still win easily like that if you play as a team. If everyone death matches then it's pointless anyway.

[Icykill_]

I will note that, on my imp chars, I have been getting a fair number of Imp v Imp "simulations" as of late. I haven't really been doing PvP on my pubs, so I can't say what's happening there.

 

But people still complain if you ask for cross faction teams because it interferes with RP for some people.

When we say just set it up as a simulation like same faction matches Bio tell us it ruins the player immersion.

But I ask you, how can you RP if there is no pvp to start with?

[IanArgent]

But people still complain if you ask for cross faction teams because it interferes with RP for some people.

When we say just set it up as a simulation like same faction matches Bio tell us it ruins the player immersion.

But I ask you, how can you RP if there is no pvp to start with?

 

You get the cross-faction teams in the new game mode; I had thought they might extend that to some of the other modes, more "alliance training." But, I'm just one of your many many alts

[mmmbuddah]

Then what would be the point of obtaining the gear in the first place?

 

Making the NiM gear easier to obtain for doing only PvP and for tirelessly grinding wouldn't also be fair towards those of us who still raid and even more - what would be with us who already spent thousands of unassembled components for new GEMINI gear?

 

The drop rates are OK now, especially since 246 also provides bonus, and one can't just expect to have all top NiM gear for zombie farming PvP for one week. Some would just like to have everything served on a silver pladder I guess...

 

Which is why there needs to be expertise again, so we can get set gear 10 levels lower than NM gear for pvp quickly. I still am baffled why they got rid of it, just because a few whinos didnt understand it. It was so easy to be competitive at 4,0, now if you dont live and breath this game, and have a severe vitamin d deficiency you are screwed. I played quite a few imps today that were AWFUL, but they beat me because :

 

A. They were using 248 gear, I only have 230 /236

 

B. They were playing fotm classes.

 

If we had pvp gear back this wouldnt be a problem.

[Icykill_]

Which is why there needs to be expertise again, so we can get set gear 10 levels lower than NM gear for pvp quickly. I still am baffled why they got rid of it, just because a few whinos didnt understand it. It was so easy to be competitive at 4,0, now if you dont live and breath this game, and have a severe vitamin d deficiency you are screwed. I played quite a few imps today that were AWFUL, but they beat me because :

 

A. They were using 248 gear, I only have 230 /236

 

B. They were playing fotm classes.

 

If we had pvp gear back this wouldnt be a problem.

 

I would prefer the old system back. The issue those "whinos" had was they would come into pvp with BiS pve gear and no expertise. The rational was their huge stats were supposed to compensate for the lack of expertise, but it didn't.

 

The whole thing was an extremely easy fix. If Bio had add more info in the game or even on the website about expertise and how Bolster works, then most of that complaining never would have happened.

 

As it was all they had to do was wear 190 lvl green gear until they got their pvp gear. This should have also been detailed in the game so people would know.

 

Some of us actually tried to help those "whinos" by explaining about the 190 gear. Most of them were rude or refused to listen to polite help. I even went as far as crafting/buying gear to give to people and they refused to take it. There just isn't helping some of those people.

Edited April 21, 2017 by Icykill_