Ranged classes aren't OP. Melee classes are under-powered. Here's why

[gbmart]

I'm not here to cry nerf on the classes that have been shown love. I'm here to give objective data and subjective reasoning as to why melee, and in specific, Guardian/Juggernaut classes are absolutely broken in PvP.

 

I main Guardian in Focus spec. I deal decent damage, no problem there. Here are some reasons on why this melee class is broken.

 

1. Every class has multiple damage mitigation shields that I must chew through. They are easily re-applied.
    
   
2. My class must overcome "slow" abilities that are cast repeatedly on me. They are easily re-applied.
    
   
3. There is no way to survive or escape single or multiple threats. Once I am engaged, I must win or die.
    
   
4. Ranged classes are adept at damaging me through my defensive cool-downs. Saber Reflect does not give adequate protection. Focused Defense does not provide adequate healing, and I am only able to heal through being continuously damaged.. Enure does little more than buy 2-3 seconds worth of life before it too has been damaged through; Enure is a worthless defensive cooldown in the PvP realm.
   
5. My control of the battle is severely limited. I must hold my opponent in extremely close proximity and have limited ability to do so. Anything I can control my opponent with is short-lived and subject to being negated by Resolve.
   

 

Point # 1 scenario. Worst offenders: Sorcerer/Mercenary. Multiple/Re-applicable shields, Phase Walk, God-bubble, Mercenary auto-heal button.

 

Point #2 scenario. Worst offenders: Sorcerer/Mercenary. Sorcerers have a trait that allows them a free stun if they are critically hit, this is re-applied frequently and diminishes my class effectiveness. Mercenaries have Electro-Net, which limits my mobility to absolute zero and is not subject to Resolve because it is a slow, not a stun. I can not leap to a friendly/hostile target. I can not blade blitz out of Electro-Net. I am simply nothing more than a walking health-bar; my class effectiveness is reduced to zero

 

Point #3 scenario. Worst offenders: Sorcerer/Mercenary/Assassin/Operative. Mercenaries are allowed to escape frequently with a push-back, a gap creating ability, a defensive cool-down allowing unrestrained movement and a stun ability. Sorcerers are able to Phase Walk or Bubble and Force Speed with little consequence; any consequence can be mitigated with another re-applied shield or immediately stunning an opponent waiting for their invulnerability to end. Assassins and Operatives can stealth in combat and simply exit the battle.

 

Point #4 scenario. Saber Reflect on paper is a great defensive ability and can wisely be used offensively. It is short-lived with an obscene cool-down to be practical in any battle scenario. Activating Focused Defense at mid-HP while being damaged means I will probably end up with mid-HP when its charges have run out; opponent damage continues. Focused Defense at low-hp means that you will probably critically hit through its allotted healing and eliminate me from battle. Enure needs no explanation as to why it is useless outside of the PvE realm.

 

Point #4 scenario. Force Stasis is subject to Resolve. Force Push is subject to Resolve. A traited Saber Throw immobilization is subject to Resolve. Zealous Leap immobilization is ineffective and its range is laughable considering I must casually saunter over to my intended target to apply an incredibly short-duration immobilization.

 

The main objective of this thread promote awareness that the scales are currently tipped in favor of ALL ranged classes. No matter what class you play, no matter if you disagree, there is absolutely no basis for someone to say that melee is on par with ranged right now.

 

The only solution to these problems are to acknowledge that Guardian/Juggernaut is obsolete in tactics, skills, traits and abilities and must be re-worked until it is at least semi-competitive in scenarios with other classes.

[mmmbuddah]

The only ranged SPECS that are OP atm are Gunnery / Arsenal Commando / Merc and Sharpshooter / Marksman Gunslinger / Sniper. That is - it - And honestly, the only melee class that is underpowered atm is vanguard / pt. I see plenty of marauders / juggernauts doing fine, they arent the easiest, but they are in a far better place than vg / pt atm.

[Eli_Porter]

Every class has multiple damage mitigation shields that I must chew through. They are easily re-applied.

 

While I agree TTK is a bit too high, this isn't a melee-only problem.

 

My class must overcome "slow" abilities that are cast repeatedly on me. They are easily re-applied.

 

You can pick up slows/roots of your own.

 

There is no way to survive or escape single or multiple threats. Once I am engaged, I must win or die.

 

False. You have an AoE mez, an AoE slow, two hard stuns, a knockback, a self cleanse, and a movement skill.

 

Do DPS juggs need a bit of help? Are mercs OP? Sure. But it's not a melee problem.

[Mianera]

WHAT are you even talking about!

 

Guardians/Juggs + Sentinel/Mara have the highest damage potential but also the highest skill cap! They ABSOLUTELY WRECK ranged classes, you must have barely touched pvp to even make a statement like that.

 

I play all in PvP and frankly, although mercs/mandos + snipers/slingers have the easiest rotation, I honestly feel overpowered when I play my jugg/mara and I always top everything else in damage done.

 

This seems like a whine thread but frankly, buff either one, I don't care.

 

The funniest part is where you call sorcs/sages offenders, THEY are the most underpowered right now and truth be told if you cannot down one as a guardian/jugg then you are doing it WRONG

 

However.... you NEED to adjust your utilities and spec to function properly in pvp, same goes for rotation. If this isn't optimized then of course, you will feel like you are just being kited and constantly slowed. But honestly, that is your own fault for not utilizing your own abilities to counter their escape and kite mechanisms.

[J_McSkill]

WHAT are you even talking about!

 

Guardians/Juggs + Sentinel/Mara have the highest damage potential but also the highest skill cap! They ABSOLUTELY WRECK ranged classes, you must have barely touched pvp to even make a statement like that.

 

I play all in PvP and frankly, although mercs/mandos + snipers/slingers have the easiest rotation, I honestly feel overpowered when I play my jugg/mara and I always top everything else in damage done.

 

This seems like a whine thread but frankly, buff either one, I don't care.

 

The funniest part is where you call sorcs/sages offenders, THEY are the most underpowered right now and truth be told if you cannot down one as a guardian/jugg then you are doing it WRONG

 

However.... you NEED to adjust your utilities and spec to function properly in pvp, same goes for rotation. If this isn't optimized then of course, you will feel like you are just being kited and constantly slowed. But honestly, that is your own fault for not utilizing your own abilities to counter their escape and kite mechanisms.

 

LAWL

 

You had me at dps juggs wreck Mercs/Snipers

 

Nice attempt at a triple though....

Edited February 19, 2017 by J_McSkill

[DerSchneider]

WHAT are you even talking about!

 

Guardians/Juggs + Sentinel/Mara have the highest damage potential but also the highest skill cap! They ABSOLUTELY WRECK ranged classes, you must have barely touched pvp to even make a statement like that.

 

I play all in PvP and frankly, although mercs/mandos + snipers/slingers have the easiest rotation, I honestly feel overpowered when I play my jugg/mara and I always top everything else in damage done.

 

This seems like a whine thread but frankly, buff either one, I don't care.

 

The funniest part is where you call sorcs/sages offenders, THEY are the most underpowered right now and truth be told if you cannot down one as a guardian/jugg then you are doing it WRONG

 

However.... you NEED to adjust your utilities and spec to function properly in pvp, same goes for rotation. If this isn't optimized then of course, you will feel like you are just being kited and constantly slowed. But honestly, that is your own fault for not utilizing your own abilities to counter their escape and kite mechanisms.

 

How can I escape and counter rotational slows of merc? How do I gap close sniper as vigilance (to utilize the main tool of my spec)? What high skill cap you are talking about when all my dcds can be countered and negated by a child?

Teach to 1v1 mercs and snipers plxplxlxplxplx

[jedcjedcjedc]

Sorcs really don't even have DCD's really.they have skills to run away after they've taken two hits and are >50%. snipers and mercs are definitely up there though.

[DarthRaika]

I'm sorry but complaining about dps sorcs in this meta tells me that this is a l2p issue.

 

First of all it appears you are talking about regs and Jug dps are great in regs it is just that they suck in yolo.

 

Anyone that pvp's a lot and isn't biased can see that Snipers and mercs are OP right now but in regs all classes still do pretty well. However, mara, sin, and op are all above dps sorc in yolo. This isn't a ranged vs melee issue it is just a merc/sniper issue.

[Costello]

OP is spot on.

 

PvP in the game isn't great, the 'warzones' are very limiting in a number of ways and that it is 8v8 or 4v4 means classes have to be able to function well in this environment. Saying well that melee class does amazing damage, that only means something if the match is all about maximum damage, not to mention they have to stick on target. If a simple knock back puts you on another level then your dps counts for ****.

 

As the op said everytime melee go in they have to commit, now if your lucky enough to be fighting idiotic range classes thats possible but anyone that knows what they are doing pulls back, use slows, stuns, roots anything to force melee to expend their CC breaks which then allows them to use their combat stun. But if people don't realize this then no explanation will help them.

 

Bottom line, your only way to hit their healer is to run through the enemy line to the back to try and take them down, cause decent healers don't stand at the front. You then get nuked, cause everyone with any sense turns on you cause you may as well be wearing a sign telling people to **** you. And you want to guess if your damage is sufficient to take down their healer before they nuke you.

 

So melee classes need something to make them viable.

[Schoock]

Saying that melee (or any class) is not viable in regs...

 

LoL.

[Mianera]

How can I escape and counter rotational slows of merc? How do I gap close sniper as vigilance (to utilize the main tool of my spec)? What high skill cap you are talking about when all my dcds can be countered and negated by a child?

Teach to 1v1 mercs and snipers plxplxlxplxplx

 

Right, against a merc/mando

 

Never get engaged on first ( I know this is a broad saying, but try to avoid it)

Never charge straight away, engage by running up to them.

If they use knockback, then charge.

If you get slowed, use chilling scream (your slow that with utility also increases ur own movement speed)

If they use propulsion round/rocket out, follow them with dash

If they use ANY type of defensive cooldown (fx shields) ignore them and switch target or use ur own defensive cooldowns or take cover behind walls or whatnot, additional use CC and wait it out till its over. DO NOT ATTACK

If they use hold the line, THAT's where you use your stun!

ONLY interrupt gravity round/tracer missile, dont waste your main interrupt on anything else as this will break their rotation.

 

The main rule is to make them waste their defensives, and interrupt their rotation by stopping grav round/tracer missile.

 

Pretty much the same deal with snipers, but MAIN RULE is to NOT engage while they use defensive cooldowns and wait for your opening where entrench is on cooldown. Snipers break like paper and their mobility is crap as most abilities now require them to be in cover.

 

I really do mean it, I play a merc/mando really well, but every now and again I get out dps and wrecked by juggs/marauders. And when I play my jugg, the mercs/mandos frikken cry as I steal killing blows and top damage away from them.

 

You need to remember that PvP isn't about 1v1 or 2v1. It's all very situational and frankly, your priority shouldn't be enemy snipers or ranged dps. Your priority should be what's keeping them alive.

 

I really truly believe that those classes are fine. The problem with warzones isn't that one class is currently OP while another is UP, the problem is healers! You should only be attacking healers in any PvP and if you ain't doing that, then you are doing it WRONG

 

My question to you is, are you attacking enemy healers and then, only then when you cannot find any nearby you attack high dps threats? Or do you tunnel vision charge at the first thing you TAB target?

[CraigOnXD]

Right, against a merc/mando

 

Never get engaged on first ( I know this is a broad saying, but try to avoid it)

Never charge straight away, engage by running up to them.

If they use knockback, then charge.

If you get slowed, use chilling scream (your slow that with utility also increases ur own movement speed)

If they use propulsion round/rocket out, follow them with dash

If they use ANY type of defensive cooldown (fx shields) ignore them and switch target or use ur own defensive cooldowns or take cover behind walls or whatnot, additional use CC and wait it out till its over. DO NOT ATTACK

If they use hold the line, THAT's where you use your stun!

ONLY interrupt gravity round/tracer missile, dont waste your main interrupt on anything else as this will break their rotation.

 

The main rule is to make them waste their defensives, and interrupt their rotation by stopping grav round/tracer missile.

 

Pretty much the same deal with snipers, but MAIN RULE is to NOT engage while they use defensive cooldowns and wait for your opening where entrench is on cooldown. Snipers break like paper and their mobility is crap as most abilities now require them to be in cover.

 

I really do mean it, I play a merc/mando really well, but every now and again I get out dps and wrecked by juggs/marauders. And when I play my jugg, the mercs/mandos frikken cry as I steal killing blows and top damage away from them.

 

You need to remember that PvP isn't about 1v1 or 2v1. It's all very situational and frankly, your priority shouldn't be enemy snipers or ranged dps. Your priority should be what's keeping them alive.

 

I really truly believe that those classes are fine. The problem with warzones isn't that one class is currently OP while another is UP, the problem is healers! You should only be attacking healers in any PvP and if you ain't doing that, then you are doing it WRONG

 

My question to you is, are you attacking enemy healers and then, only then when you cannot find any nearby you attack high dps threats? Or do you tunnel vision charge at the first thing you TAB target?

 

 

..LoL..

[Qwurdilu]

I'm not here to cry nerf on the classes that have been shown love.

 

I agree that buffing is better than nerfing in general because of the loss aversion. In this case however constant buffing led to an inflation of defensive which causes a ridiculous ttk (time to kill). This causes many stalemates which causes boring matches. Of course noone likes to hit the respawn button 20 times in a game, but the other side of the medal is that noone getting kills results in extreme boring games. People need to get over it when they die, its just a game after all.

So no, buffing every class defensives to sniper/merc level is definately not the way to go. This would completely ruin pvp because no one would ever die. What we really need is a decrease of defensives for merc/sniper/sentinel

[Schoock]

Of course noone likes to hit the respawn button 20 times in a game, but the other side of the medal is that noone getting kills results in extreme boring games.

 

Let's do some math. Let's say on average you have to wait 10 seconds for the spawn door to open, and another 10 to get back to the fight. (This can be lower/higher in certain games, but on average I feel this to be a reasonable, conservative estimate.)

 

It means every time you die, you get 20 seconds out of the game. Multiply that by the number of times you die, that gets you 400 seconds, 6 minutes 40 seconds. For a Huttball that means you spend half the game not playing.

 

Is that what you want?

 

This "let's just oneshot everything cuz we're derpies" mentality is sick and I really hope Bioware will not let it gain ground in the game. Did you know TTK can be lowered by some focus? Works wonders.

 

About the general balancing of the classes, I see two ways ahead. They can try enforcing some kind of matchmaking, especially trinity-based one, and then make it the job of tanks/heals to keep people alive. Unless that happens, it's OK to provide classes with at least some survivability. If you want the slaughterhouse that's lowbies... you should play some solo game with some godmode cheat on. It's fun for a while, then it gets insanely boring.

[Ottoattack]

OP you are way too generalizing. Mara currently is running supreme. I feel for you as a jugg and truly GL if you are an ops, but saying mara or sins (Dec) need a buff is beyond crazy talk.

 

It is undisputable though, there needs to be major roll backs on DCDs offered in 5.0. Merc is the poster child for this, but this also applies to sniper, mara and Dec sins (to an extent). We need to nerf survivability across the board.

[Qwurdilu]

This "let's just oneshot everything cuz we're derpies" mentality is sick and I really hope Bioware will not let it gain ground in the game. Did you know TTK can be lowered by some focus? Works wonders..

 

Dude im not your average derpie, and assuming i dont know about focus fire is nothing but a lack of respect. In fact i have played hundreds of teamranked games, and many of those we played hardswitch. Have you ever done teamranked on proper level? Have you ever played hardswitch in teamranked? If not, youre probably talking about 8vs8. Ofc you can get away there with focus fire, but that is because youre not facing equally skilled teams. See i play this game long enough to remember what 8vs8 ranked was like. It was stalemates all the way, and that was with much lower defensives than we have nowadays. So if youre talking about focus fire can let you clean mid, youre not talking about balanced pvp but about farming regstars.

 

You need to start to understand that pvp is facing actual players. So each time you die someone else has a kill. Each time you kill someone else has to die. And sir, in all honesty, i play pvp to kill. Id rather die ten times and have ten kills, than not die at all and not have any kill. If you dont want to die, you probably shouldnt run pvp in the first place, because thats what pvp is about: killing - and that means you have to die an equal amount.

[Schoock]

And sir, in all honesty, i play pvp to kill. Id rather die ten times and have ten kills, than not die at all and not have any kill.

 

I'd rather see kills as a reward for good play rather than just random rewards thrown around for participation.

 

You mentioned dying 20 times, which (even if just an exaggeration) does not make sense in the context of arenas, because one death often means the whole team has lost. That leaves 8vs8. And 8vs8 maps are objective maps, not deathmatches (AHG aside, which has a deathmatch element in its scoring), so I don't understand why some people see it as a blasphemy that they require tactics other than just farming red.

[Qwurdilu]

so I don't understand why some people see it as a blasphemy that they require tactics other than just farming red.

 

Because the system became perverted and you actually need "dumber" tactics to succed. In the past you could successfully play hardswitch, and to me those were the most fun and intense games. CC tank, then stun and burst unguarded. Those games required very much skill. You had to coordinate very good, and it was very important to make good use of your defensives (breaker, rootknockback etc). It was also more fun for healers, because they not only had to farm hps, they also needed to use their breaker and cleanses intelligent. However "not-so-experienced-players" to put it nicely, felt like it was impossible to counter, because most didnt know how to counter it. As of today, most players cant even tell which healer can cleanse which cc, so they dont know what to break or when. Thats why bioware massively increased defensives up to point where this very complex tactic doesnt work anymore. They catered noobs, and advanced tactics became unvaible.

 

Hardswitch is dead. Its just impossible. My team plays it sometimes against lesser skilled teams or newbies, but against better teams you cant pull it off anymore. Sorchealer has phasewalk and 2 breakers, sniper has diversion and cc imunity, merc has reflect while hardstunned and it feels like everyone can skill into reduced cd on breakers and/or less dmg while hardstunned. Add to that an increased healthpool compared to dmg. with 4.0. Hardswitch is dead and that is just lame.

 

See, im an enthusiastic teamranked player, and according to leaderboards i have the most games played. Ive seen a lot, and what i usually see when new teams enter teamranked, they usually run something like fury marauder and arsenal merc and try to focus-fire-kill something, so actually the tactic you propose. But with such tactics you get roflstomped. So the tactic that players intuitively chose, and which most players agree would be the most fun, is actually the least effective. The actual meta is cc&interupt heal on cd and do max dps on the group. And while i agree that it requires some effort and teamplay to chain ccs and especially interrupts, its not even close to the coordination required back when hardswitch was meta.

 

So actually there is no correlation that says more defensives equals more tactics, its actually quite the contrary. Dull tactics are not only more effective, they are the only viable one for teamranked. What you propose is to overcome all the defensives with tactics, but that aint possible. The only thing you can do is to interrupt the healer as good as possible while doing as much dmg as possible. Thats not tactics, thats just derp.

 

I actually advocate for more complex tactics, but in order for that to be possible, we need to make those viable, which means we need to make it possible again which means we need to drastically reduce defensives.

Right now you dont want to focus fire in teamranked, its by far the least effective

Edited February 20, 2017 by Qwurdilu

[oli-fynnobi]

Right, against a merc/mando

 

Never get engaged on first ( I know this is a broad saying, but try to avoid it)

Never charge straight away, engage by running up to them.

If they use knockback, then charge.

If you get slowed, use chilling scream (your slow that with utility also increases ur own movement speed)

If they use propulsion round/rocket out, follow them with dash

If they use ANY type of defensive cooldown (fx shields) ignore them and switch target or use ur own defensive cooldowns or take cover behind walls or whatnot, additional use CC and wait it out till its over. DO NOT ATTACK

If they use hold the line, THAT's where you use your stun!

ONLY interrupt gravity round/tracer missile, dont waste your main interrupt on anything else as this will break their rotation.

 

The main rule is to make them waste their defensives, and interrupt their rotation by stopping grav round/tracer missile.

 

Pretty much the same deal with snipers, but MAIN RULE is to NOT engage while they use defensive cooldowns and wait for your opening where entrench is on cooldown. Snipers break like paper and their mobility is crap as most abilities now require them to be in cover.

 

I really do mean it, I play a merc/mando really well, but every now and again I get out dps and wrecked by juggs/marauders. And when I play my jugg, the mercs/mandos frikken cry as I steal killing blows and top damage away from them.

 

You need to remember that PvP isn't about 1v1 or 2v1. It's all very situational and frankly, your priority shouldn't be enemy snipers or ranged dps. Your priority should be what's keeping them alive.

 

I really truly believe that those classes are fine. The problem with warzones isn't that one class is currently OP while another is UP, the problem is healers! You should only be attacking healers in any PvP and if you ain't doing that, then you are doing it WRONG

 

My question to you is, are you attacking enemy healers and then, only then when you cannot find any nearby you attack high dps threats? Or do you tunnel vision charge at the first thing you TAB target?

 

Bro, did u play Jugg DPS in Solo Ranked?

Edited February 20, 2017 by oli-fynnobi

[DerSchneider]

snip

 

I'm doing ok in pvp, winning warzones isn't bothering me. Killing defensiveless people is also not the case.

I'm not ok with the fact that any semi-decent mercenary or sniper blows my *** completely and easily in 1v1.

You said about some general tips even following which you won't get anyone decent. First, you simply don't have enough CC to counter four major dcds (shield, reflect, kolto, rebounded shield), and because they are absurdly strong you have to wait and probaby get hit. Kiting is not a thing because merc's rotational slow is 70% and +40% optional.

Second - net. Every thinking merc will make a distance before or after netting you. You either have to take damage or let merc heal up, since you need to save CC breaker for a conc. Third. Spammable 4/8 sec root. This crap is so OP I can't even describe. How to counter that **** with only one root breaker?

 

About snipers I won't even bother writing, this is a simple counter-class. Vengeance gets insta-locked here, you have to play rage and somewhow survive through AOE spam while kiting their shield, flashbang combos etc.

Edited February 20, 2017 by DerSchneider

[yellow_]

So no, buffing every class defensives to sniper/merc level is definately not the way to go. This would completely ruin pvp because no one would ever die. What we really need is a decrease of defensives for merc/sniper/sentinel

quoting for truth, been saying the same thing on these boards

 

buffing the defensives of every class to the levels of these three would be an absolute disaster for PVP

 

#endtheDCDarmsracenow

[mmmbuddah]

OP you are way too generalizing. Mara currently is running supreme. I feel for you as a jugg and truly GL if you are an ops, but saying mara or sins (Dec) need a buff is beyond crazy talk.

 

It is undisputable though, there needs to be major roll backs on DCDs offered in 5.0. Merc is the poster child for this, but this also applies to sniper, mara and Dec sins (to an extent). We need to nerf survivability across the board.

 

Mercs were the punching bags for 4 years. Their new dcds could be toned down, but rolling them back would be the death of the class.............again.

[KittyKat_Karrot]

Dps sorcs are allegedly OP in 2017. You heard it here first folks. Edited February 20, 2017 by KittyKat_Karrot

[Qwurdilu]

Dps sorcs are allegedly OP in 2017. You heard it here first folks.

 

My bet is on jugg

[Schoock]

...

 

You're talking about team ranked, which is an entirely different (and I dare to say, the least popular) format of PvP. What you're saying is true in the context of team ranked, because there you

1. can have a team of any setup of your choosing,
   
2. don't have to rely on random people from the queue,
   
3. can use voice communication, which allows you to execute tactics you simply cannot synchronize properly without.
   

 

The real problem that causes this defensive race is the lack of matchmaking. If proper group compositions were enforced, some weaker DCDs would be enough, because you would have teammates you can rely on to keep you alive. But this way you are not guaranteed anything. (Once again, I'm not talking about team ranked.) The kind of PvP that's happening in lowbies (you go in, do your 3-4 hits then go respawn) is plain trash, unenjoyable, and should not become a standard.

 

With that said, I do think mercs/snipers are a bit over the top. Mercs especially. They don't need Kolto Overload/Shield heal/Reflect/70% rotational slow/Electro Net/Hydraulics/Rocket Out on a gosh darn DPS class, it's too much. I think Maras are in a good position DCD-wise, especially with the burst that Carnage has. Merc was also good pre-5.0, and even if they needed some kind of defensive upgrade (not entirely sure about that, either), BW has buffed them way over the top.

 

See, the problem (and the reason why we'll never agree) is that we're talking about entirely different scenarios. Entirely different balancing is needed for team ranked and everything else, especially regs. It's hard to balance both at the same time.