Bad Days Ahead..........Immediate Responce Required

[Totemdancer]

If Johnny is the only one in the guild moving, then, of course the prudent thing to do is to hand over GM to someone he trusts who IS staying.

 

But, since you claim that Johnny is soooo willing to happily leave that guild and guild ship behind, why would that bother him?

 

I feel bad for Johnny. Does he know you are throwing his name around on the forums. You know you aren't allowed to call people out

[Ratajack]

Hypothetical, if Bioware could 100% transfer everyone over without any issues, what would your reason be for not doing it?

 

Those reasons have been explained time and time again in all of these spammed "Merge servers NOW!!!! I NEED LFG fodder!!!!" threads.

 

 

Guilds, guild assets, legacy storage, are all large reasons I am against server merges, but not the only reasons.

 

Even if BW could mover everyone seamlessly without any issues surrounding guilds and guild assets, legacy storage, etc. There is still no reason to force Billy, who is very happy on his server with its polite, respectful and respectable community, to merge into the cesspool that is Harbinger.

 

Turning off chat does not prevent Billy from having to deal with the rude, childish, immature behavior that is so prevalent on Harbinger these days.

[Ratajack]

I feel bad for Johnny. Does he know you are throwing his name around on the forums. You know you aren't allowed to call people out

 

I'll take my chances.

 

If you feel so strongly about it, then report me and let BW make the call.

[vadess]

And let me guess, based on your past posts, you think the only server that everyone should be playing on is Harbinger. NO THANK YOU.

 

Ebon Hawk is doing fine, I can get groups when or if I need them with no problems. I have no intention of moving to Harbinger. It is not the only server that should be existing.

 

I will agree some of the old pvp servers need to be merged but not everyone wants to be on Harbinger.

 

I can vouch the same about EH. So... Unless someone can give proof that numbers are in decline (ie screenshots of fleet population during primetime hours server time, and during the weekend) then I'll assume what people like the OP are saying is subjective.

 

(I'm not moving to Harbinger either, btw).

[Totemdancer]

Those reasons have been explained time and time again in all of these spammed "Merge servers NOW!!!! I NEED LFG fodder!!!!" threads.

 

 

Guilds, guild assets, legacy storage, are all large reasons I am against server merges, but not the only reasons.

 

Even if BW could mover everyone seamlessly without any issues surrounding guilds and guild assets, legacy storage, etc. There is still no reason to force Billy, who is very happy on his server with its polite, respectful and respectable community, to merge into the cesspool that is Harbinger.

 

Turning off chat does not prevent Billy from having to deal with the rude, childish, immature behavior that is so prevalent on Harbinger these days.

 

So if the argument boiled down to people not liking xyz server population vs MMO people needing the population to play group content and also keep the game alive, which would you say is better for the overall health of the game?

 

Remember in another post you said you weren't against mergers except had reservations about it because of possible technical issues of moving Guild Ships etc. so if that problem was solved?

 

You've also accused anyone asking for merges as being selfish because people might hypothetically lose some stuff.

 

So if we follow your logic, would it or wouldn't it be selfish of you to demand the servers not be merged if Bioware were able to transfer everything and have no issues?

Edited February 23, 2017 by Totemdancer

[Ratajack]

So if the argument boiled down to people not liking xyz server population vs MMO people needing the population to play group content and also keep the game alive, which would you say is better for the overall health of the game?

 

Remember in another post you said you weren't against mergers except had reservations about it because of possible technical issues of moving Guild Ships etc. so if that problems was solved?

 

No. You are only partially correct. It is not JUST about guilds, guild assets, etc.

 

Here is what I said:

 

I fully understand and support Johnny's desire to play on a more populated server, just not at the cost of forcing Billy to suffer the headaches and nightmares that Johnny's desired server merges or mega server would cause.

 

Those headaches and nightmares are not only about losing guilds, guild assets, items in legacy storage, etc. Those nightmares and headaches ALSO include forcing Billy from his server with a nice respectful, respectable community to play on a server full of childish, rude, immature players who delight in ruining the game for others.

 

You've also accused anyone asking for merges as being selfish because people might hypothetically lose some stuff.

 

Again, you are wrong,. See above.

 

I have said those who refuse to even consider availing themselves of the options available to them to solve their perceived problem, instead choosing to demand server merges, are selfish because they do not care about the headaches and nightmares that those who who are against server merges would have to suffer. Those headaches and nightmares are NOT just "losing some stuff".

 

 

So if we follow your logic, would it or wouldn't it be selfish of you to demand the servers not be merged if Bioware were able to transfer everything and have no issues?

 

See above. It is NOT just about guilds and guild assets, etc. and "losing some stuff".

 

If I were trying to deny Johnny the chance to avail himself of the options available to him to solve his perceived problem, then maybe you could say I was being selfish, but since that is NOT the case and I fully support Johnny availing himself of the options available to him to solve his perceived problem, I would say that I am NOT being selfish in this regard.

[Totemdancer]

I can vouch the same about EH. So... Unless someone can give proof that numbers are in decline (ie screenshots of fleet population during primetime hours server time, and during the weekend) then I'll assume what people like the OP are saying is subjective.

 

(I'm not moving to Harbinger either, btw).

 

I don't think anyone has a problem with the more populated servers. It's the ghost towns that people can't get group content on that are the issue.

But also you mentioned prime time. Not everyone's prime time is the same as yours and people should have the same opportunity to play group content at anytime of the day like it used to be when we had healthy server populations,

ie, if you play on Harbinger there used to be 3-4 prime times. One when the majority of east coast people were on, another for west coast, another for NZ & Eastern Australia and another for South East Asia & Western Australia.

Most of those prime times over lapped or nearly overlapped so we used to have a healthy population to play any content for most of the day.

Now we see a small 3 -4 hour (week days) and 4-5 hour (weekend) windows for US prime time, a non existent (maybe 1 hour) NZ, Aust, Asian prime time for any day of the week.

Prime time doesn't just mean the US, but that's getting smaller anyway, so anyone from APAC who wants to play needs to play at times when they should be at work or when they should be asleep.

 

And for the life of me I don't see why they would need to merge any west or east coast servers together. That would stop people playing from the region that got moved from. The only merges should be regional. But then we know Bioware don't understand things like lag, so it's quite possible they would just make one big mega server for the whole game and locate it in most inconvenient position for everyone, sort of like they did when they closed the APAC servers due to low population and moved them to the west coast.

[Totemdancer]

No. You are only partially correct. It is not JUST about guilds, guild assets, etc.

 

Here is what I said:

 

Those headaches and nightmares are not only about losing guilds, guild assets, items in legacy storage, etc. Those nightmares and headaches ALSO include forcing Billy from his server with a nice respectful, respectable community to play on a server full of childish, rude, immature players who delight in ruining the game for others.

 

Again, you are wrong,. See above.

 

I have said those who refuse to even consider availing themselves of the options available to them to solve their perceived problem, instead choosing to demand server merges, are selfish because they do not care about the headaches and nightmares that those who who are against server merges would have to suffer. Those headaches and nightmares are NOT just "losing some stuff".

 

See above. It is NOT just about guilds and guild assets, etc. and "losing some stuff".

 

If I were trying to deny Johnny the chance to avail himself of the options available to him to solve his perceived problem, then maybe you could say I was being selfish, but since that is NOT the case and I fully support Johnny availing himself of the options available to him to solve his perceived problem, I would say that I am NOT being selfish in this regard.

 

So you still didn't answer the question, but good try at polly speak in misdirection in the hope I wouldn't notice.

 

It's a pretty simple question.

 

If the only reason for not merging is dislike of a server population, is it selfish not to merge servers if a merge would be in the best interests of the game?

 

A. Yes

B. No

 

There is no grey area in that question or third choice, it's a simple yes or no answer.

 

 

Edit : just thought I'd add this as you often skew the truth and twist and turn the conversation round when you get cornered. So let me remind you of exactly what you said in a post about not being against merges. I don't even need to interpret it because you laid it out so well. (FYI, I only removed the personal attack part about me belonging or not belonging to a guild as it's not relevant)

 

Except I am not against server merges, and never have been. Clearly you are reading selectively if you feel your comment above is accurate.

 

I am against poorly conducted server merges.. and the lack of guilds being able to move intact in a merge in this MMO is extremely problematic for guilds. I know some players are not into guilds.. and live off of fast random pops in queues, and as such... see merges as the only viable solution, and could care less how it impacts other players in the process....... That is your choice, but please... don't pretend your viewpoints do not warrant disagreement from other players.

Edited February 23, 2017 by Totemdancer

[Ratajack]

So you still didn't answer the question, but good try at polly speak in misdirection in the hope I wouldn't notice.

 

It's a pretty simple question.

 

If the only reason for not merging is dislike of a server population, is it selfish not to merge servers if a merge would be in the best interests of the game?

 

A. Yes

B. No

 

There is no grey area in that question or third choice, it's a simple yes or no answer.

 

Your "question" reminds me of the "question" that the lawyer in "My Cousin Vinny" asked Marisa Tomei. It's a BS question.

 

First, dislike of a server's population is NOT the only issue, and you have no way of proving that merging servers would truly be in the best interest of the game. In your opinion, it might be, but my opinion is merging servers is definitely NOT int he best interest of the game.

 

To answer your question, if the ONLY reason for not merging were a dislike of the "destination" server's population (and that is NOT the only reason) AND it were truly in the best interest of the game (and we have no way of proving conclusively that it is), I would still say that it is NOT selfish to be against server merges because those against server merges are NOT trying to FORCE their desires onto those that prefer more populated servers and prevent those who desire more populated servers from availing themselves of the options they have to solve their perceived problem.

[Ratajack]

So you still didn't answer the question, but good try at polly speak in misdirection in the hope I wouldn't notice.

 

It's a pretty simple question.

 

If the only reason for not merging is dislike of a server population, is it selfish not to merge servers if a merge would be in the best interests of the game?

 

A. Yes

B. No

 

There is no grey area in that question or third choice, it's a simple yes or no answer.

 

 

Edit : just thought I'd add this as you often skew the truth and twist and turn the conversation round when you get cornered. So let me remind you of exactly what you said in a post about not being against merges. I don't even need to interpret it because you laid it out so well. (FYI, I only removed the personal attack part about me belonging or not belonging to a guild as it's not relevant)

 

 

Except I am not against server merges, and never have been. Clearly you are reading selectively if you feel your comment above is accurate.

 

I am against poorly conducted server merges.. and the lack of guilds being able to move intact in a merge in this MMO is extremely problematic for guilds. I know some players are not into guilds.. and live off of fast random pops in queues, and as such... see merges as the only viable solution, and could care less how it impacts other players in the process....... That is your choice, but please... don't pretend your viewpoints do not warrant disagreement from other players.

 

Go back and check that again. You can't even get THAT right. I did not say that, someone else did, as you would have KNOWN had you actually bothered to check.

[Totemdancer]

Go back and check that again. You can't even get THAT right. I did not say that, someone else did, as you would have KNOWN had you actually bothered to check.

 

LoL, you are right, opps, guess I made a mistake, sorry I mistook that post for yours because both your styles of posting, syntax and structure are very similar

[Totemdancer]

Your "question" reminds me of the "question" that the lawyer in "My Cousin Vinny" asked Marisa Tomei. It's a BS question.

 

First, dislike of a server's population is NOT the only issue, and you have no way of proving that merging servers would truly be in the best interest of the game. In your opinion, it might be, but my opinion is merging servers is definitely NOT int he best interest of the game.

 

To answer your question, if the ONLY reason for not merging were a dislike of the "destination" server's population (and that is NOT the only reason) AND it were truly in the best interest of the game (and we have no way of proving conclusively that it is), I would still say that it is NOT selfish to be against server merges because those against server merges are NOT trying to FORCE their desires onto those that prefer more populated servers and prevent those who desire more populated servers from availing themselves of the options they have to solve their perceived problem.

 

So why are you always one of the first people to try and discredit people or call them selfish when they want mergers. They aren't going after you or saying "we'll get those anti merger people", they honestly believe mergers are need to be able to play the game.

Everyone has a reason for or against mergers. But when you take out the core concern most people have against merges (guild stuff transfers), then you're only left with the "I don't like the people on that server" argument. Which really does sound a bit selfish and QQish.

You can use hyperbole and "if's" and "perceived problem" all you like. But if don't play or rarely play MMO content, you can't possibly know how it affects the people who only play MMO content.

There doesn't seem to be anything that would please you except to have it your own way with no compromise, even if that is detrimental to the game and may contribute to it closing sooner rather than later.

I'm sure others, including people who don't want mergers can see that is being unreasonable. No matter how distasteful something is, if it's better for game's health, I will grudgingly support it. I don't think you feel that way about the game or at least you don't seem to.

So I guess I'm not going to get a simple yes or no answer from you, but I think you've answered "no" you dont think it's selfish to demand they don't merge servers if the only argument is only based on "I dont like the people of xyz server" vs "MMO people need merges to play the game"

I don't think anyone can convince you it's a good thing to do. I guess we'll have to wait and see what the Devs think.

Edited February 23, 2017 by Totemdancer

[forestguard]

I don't think anyone has a problem with the more populated servers. It's the ghost towns that people can't get group content on that are the issue

 

Most probably don't, but the OP was adamant that even Ebon Hawk was in terrible shape with no Ranked PvP pops or GSF and that *all* US servers should be merged into one and all EU servers into another.

[Totemdancer]

Most probably don't, but the OP was adamant that even Ebon Hawk was in terrible shape with no Ranked PvP pops or GSF and that *all* US servers should be merged into one and all EU servers into another.

 

I can't comment on any East Coast or EU servers except POT5 which is now a decomposed corpse it's so dead.

 

But he is probably right about GSF and Ranked because even on Harbinger GSF hardly pops and the only people who play ranked are the toxic trolls. Even the qualified people have stopped playing with them. They have to get on fleet chat and beg people to queue Ranked. Then the idiots troll you and wonder why no one will play ranked. I'm not sure what the Ranked community is like on EH, but if it's like Harbinger, then it probably doesn't pop.

 

Because of lag there still needs to be regional servers. I guess when the game goes into cardiac arrest they'll put it on just one server. But until then we need as a minimum one server per region and probably more on the East Coast and EU. The west coast just needs the one.

Edited February 24, 2017 by Totemdancer

[Darkside]

I think the devs internal numbers absolutely show them the death of 90% of their existing servers. However, I think that they fear the ensuing negative press that will be generated if they announced any sort of server merge / mega server. Basically all the online gaming news websites would use it as a hit piece story about how far swtor has fallen. From showing where we started at during the peak, and how far we have fallen with the current state of the game, and finally leading to announced mergers etc. So it is a no win situation for the devs, because leaving the servers up only helps to drive away new players who may accidentally think the game is dead, and alienate the few remaining players who are stuck on the dead servers.

[BJWyler]

In that hypothetical, it is selfish. By refusing mergers even at the cost of the game's health simply to play on a low pop server is as selfish as some of those demanding the mergers. Both groups have "perceived" problems that currently have solutions. This is an MMO and anything done should be based off of that fact.

 

Lower pop servers are no insulation against the toxicity that is the Internet and that pervades all multiplayer games. It's a fact of life that anyone and everyone needs to accept when they choose to play a multiplayer game. Fortunately, the toxic community is by no means the majority, and are easily avoided in the end, even if it means a bit of temporary inconvenience.

[MaximumOwnage]

I think the devs internal numbers absolutely show them the death of 90% of their existing servers. However, I think that they fear the ensuing negative press that will be generated if they announced any sort of server merge / mega server. Basically all the online gaming news websites would use it as a hit piece story about how far swtor has fallen. From showing where we started at during the peak, and how far we have fallen with the current state of the game, and finally leading to announced mergers etc. So it is a no win situation for the devs, because leaving the servers up only helps to drive away new players who may accidentally think the game is dead, and alienate the few remaining players who are stuck on the dead servers.

 

Short of some miracle, this entire game will be something seen on POT5. If you do not see where this game is headed I am afraid there is no help for you. The full consequence of 5.0 has not even happened yet. The iceberg straight ahead is going to be a direct hit and unlike the titanic, these developers are not even trying to steer the ship away. Games go from bad to worse at an astonishing rate when things like 5.0 happen. Get ready to reap the whirlwind.

[Andryah]

In that hypothetical, it is selfish. By refusing mergers even at the cost of the game's health simply to play on a low pop server is as selfish as some of those demanding the mergers. Both groups have "perceived" problems that currently have solutions. This is an MMO and anything done should be based off of that fact.

 

Lower pop servers are no insulation against the toxicity that is the Internet and that pervades all multiplayer games. It's a fact of life that anyone and everyone needs to accept when they choose to play a multiplayer game. Fortunately, the toxic community is by no means the majority, and are easily avoided in the end, even if it means a bit of temporary inconvenience.

 

Dude... players can easily move to any server they choose with the current low cost transfer program. And at virtually no cost unless they continue to piss away their monthly subscriber CCs on vanity items. Nothing stops them from transferring if they believe a different server better serves there needs. It's player choice based enablement. This is in fact exactly why PoT5, Jung Ma, and Basion collapsed last year..... players chose to move to a more populated server, being as all servers are now generic and there are no PvP rule set servers anymore.

 

Whereas the core premise behind this thread and it's mimics is always the same, and from the same handful of players ---> they need/want more players on their server, because they think that doing so by force will make their queues pop faster (being as they appear to be dependent on random grouping mechanics and have no patience for any wait times). They do not care and are not interested in other players preferences, they just want plenty of cannot fodder available for them on-demand. I'm sorry that you cannot see this as a selfish viewpoint on their part, but it is in fact selfish. They want what they want and do not care that it forces players on other servers to be forcibly migrated against their choice.

 

Note: I am not against merges per se, but they have to be done in a positive and progressive manner and as long as there are not mechanics and process to do so without destroying guilds in the process..... it's a complete failure. that said.. I do think it is lazy on the part of the studio to not (after more then 4 years since the last merges) to still not have a process to move guilds intact.

 

Separately... and this needs to be said over and over again... because people here mash all the various points of view together in discussion ---> yes there are three servers (old PvP servers) in North America that do need to be addressed in my view. But you know what.... there is no harm in leaving them as is since merging them into other servers will do absolutely nothing to address the actual premise of this thread and it's mimics. The rest of the servers are doing fine, even Begeren Colony (which I consider a canary in the population metrics to keep an eye on) is still doing OK.

 

I think it is sad that some players want to see entire server communities destroyed in mass mergers, just so they have more cannon fodder for their random PuG needs.

Edited February 24, 2017 by Andryah

[BJWyler]

Dude... players can easily move to any server they choose with the current low cost transfer program. And at virtually no cost unless they continue to piss away their monthly subscriber CCs on vanity items. Nothing stops them from transferring if they believe a different server better serves there needs. It's player choice based enablement. This is in fact exactly why PoT5, Jung Ma, and Basion collapsed last year..... players chose to move to a more populated server, being as all servers are now generic and there are no PvP rule set servers anymore.

 

Whereas the core premise behind this thread and it's mimics is always the same, and from the same handful of players ---> they need/want more players on their server, because they think that doing so by force will make their queues pop faster (being as they appear to be dependent on random grouping mechanics and have no patience for any wait times). They do not care and are not interested in other players preferences, they just want plenty of cannot fodder available for them on-demand. I'm sorry that you cannot see this as a selfish viewpoint on their part, but it is in fact selfish. They want what they want and do not care that it forces players on other servers to be forcibly migrated against their choice.

 

Note: I am not against merges per se, but they have to be done in a positive and progressive manner and as long as there are not mechanics and process to do so without destroying guilds in the process..... it's a complete failure. that said.. I do think it is lazy on the part of the studio to not (after more then 4 years since the last merges) to still not have a process to move guilds intact.

 

Separately... and this needs to be said over and over again... because people here mash all the various points of view together in discussion ---> yes there are three servers (old PvP servers) in North America that do need to be addressed in my view. But you know what.... there is no harm in leaving them as is since merging them into other servers will do absolutely nothing to address the actual premise of this thread and it's mimics. The rest of the servers are doing fine, even Begeren Colony (which I consider a canary in the population metrics to keep an eye on) is still doing OK.

 

I think it is sad that some players want to see entire server communities destroyed in mass mergers, just so they have more cannon fodder for their random PuG needs.

 

Not sure where this came from, but the post you quoted and responded to is itself a response to a hypothetical situation which was proposed a page or two ago. And I don't know what where you got the impression that I don't think those people you are talking about aren't selfish, considering I called them exactly that in the post you quoted.

 

I think you'll find we are in agreement in the assessment of the merger situation, but I prefer to call BS on both sides when warranted and place blame where it belongs - with BoiWare.

[Andryah]

I think you'll find we are in agreement in the assessment of the merger situation, but I prefer to call BS on both sides when warranted and place blame where it belongs - with BoiWare.

 

Why does every discussion in the forum have to immediately devolve to "blaming"? Seems nobody is willing to take responsibility for their own game play experience, and pretend they cannot transfer to find the most ideal server for them. And do so at effectively "free" costs (unless they routinely piss away their free CCs on vanity items).

 

Why do some pretend that this perceived problem by the OP is in some way objective and selfless?

 

Answer.. because everyone has an opinion, and others will disagree with said opinion. It is the nature of discussion forums, particularly gaming forums. But this does not change the inherent selfish viewpoints of the OP.

 

The pivot point of this entire thread topic is once again.. the OP wanting forced merges so he "may" have more random players to random play with. He does not care about the health of the game, much less the freedom to let players play where they like and how they like. No, he wants them all on Harbinger at his faux beck and call 7/24 to be his personal fodder for his entertainment. He wants the other US severs merged into Harbinger, and that is his only focus.

Edited February 24, 2017 by Andryah

[BJWyler]

Why does every discussion in the forum have to immediately devolve to "blaming"? Seems nobody is willing to take responsibility for their own game play experience, and pretend they cannot transfer to find the most ideal server for them. And do so at effectively "free" costs (unless they routinely piss away their free CCs on vanity items).

 

Why do some pretend that this perceived problem by the OP is in some way objective and selfless?

 

Answer.. because everyone has an opinion, and others will disagree with said opinion. It is the nature of discussion forums, particularly gaming forums. But this does not change the inherent selfish viewpoints of the OP.

 

The pivot point of this entire thread topic is once again.. the OP wanting forced merges so he "may" have more random players to random play with. He does not care about the health of the game, much less the freedom to let players play where they like and how they like. No, he wants them all on Harbinger at his faux beck and call 7/24 to be his personal fodder for his entertainment. He wants the other US severs merged into Harbinger, and that is his only focus.

 

And none of that precludes us from taking this opportunity to try and discuss the subject without dismissing it out of hand because of the OP's biases in the hopes that BioWare can see there is genuine concern over a genuine issue and BioWare's half-arsed "solution" is by no means an acceptable way for them to side-step the issue or avoid putting the work in to resolving the issues regarding guilds and such that have been brought up due to these very discussions.

[Ratajack]

And none of that precludes us from taking this opportunity to try and discuss the subject without dismissing it out of hand because of the OP's biases in the hopes that BioWare can see there is genuine concern over a genuine issue and BioWare's half-arsed "solution" is by no means an acceptable way for them to side-step the issue or avoid putting the work in to resolving the issues regarding guilds and such that have been brought up due to these very discussions.

 

BW provides a "solution" that will allow those who wish to play on higher population servers top do so without negatively impacting those that do not wish to play on servers with cesspool communities, but because the "solution" that BW has provided is not the exact "solution" that some want, it's not good enough and BW needs to spend development resources to provide the exact "solution" that those players want?

[kodrac]

You're just being argumentative.

 

You're just being obtuse. See I can do it too.

[BJWyler]

BW provides a "solution" that will allow those who wish to play on higher population servers top do so without negatively impacting those that do not wish to play on servers with cesspool communities, but because the "solution" that BW has provided is not the exact "solution" that some want, it's not good enough and BW needs to spend development resources to provide the exact "solution" that those players want?

 

It's not a solution for one of the reasons that mergers are problematic right now. And that's the guilds and the guild assets. Again, it is also my personal belief that players should not have to go through any extra hurdles, however minor, in order to get a proper MMO experience when they come to play an MMO.

 

They need to spend time and resources ensuring that if someone comes here to play the Star Wars themed MMO that they are providing that it is quick and painless on the part of the consumer to get what they expect from said MMO. Primarily, that means ensuring that guilds can be handled appropriately during the transfer process. Secondarily, that means ensuring that when someone desires to play PvP or PuG, they can expect to play said content within a reasonable amount of time for the time that they are playing. That does not mean instantaneous Q pops, but that does mean they should reasonably expect to get a few matches or say a Flashpoint or two to pop within during couple of hours of play time. That most certainly is not unreasonable to ask of any MMO.