.. and the award for Worst MMO Business Model in 2016 goes to ...

[LordArtemis]

No, it's not. If you look at Eric's initial post addressing the complaints, it says that BW made the slot machine in response to the favorable reaction to the Nightlife event. *That* shows that BW was, in fact, in tune with the player base (it *was* a popular event -- people asked for it to be brought back the next year, and it was, and this year, and there were complaints about it not being brought back). *Nothing* indicates that BW was out of touch with the player base.

 

The CSM was implemented poorly, nerfed hard, and left in a ditch because of player reaction to the implementation, not the concept, and not from a lack of knowledge of what the players wanted.

 

 

It's 23 months later, and this isn't the only thread *today* in which you've brought it up. And while my attitude with you may be playful at times, I wouldn't call it juvenile. I know you have some valid reasons (some of which I share) for disliking what happened, I just think that *being out of touch with the player base* isn't one of them.

 

 

I rarely bring up the CSM, but I will respond (imo, amusedly, not with any more malice than that) when others bring it up, especially others that were there... near me, if not with me... in the trenches

 

 

The same could be said of you and...others. But if it's fair for *you* to bring the CSM into a discussion, it's fair for others to respond to you. Do you have any idea how many times I *don't* respond to people still bringing up the CSM? How many people to this day still rant about [mat barrons] or whatever derisive terms they want to use for the "crafting elite" that they think brought down the machine?

 

If you think I single out you, it's because you were one of the only people "on the other side" that would discuss it rationally.

 

Ok, you made some fair points, though I think its a bit muddled in your explanation as to why the CSM debacle is not representative of Bioware being out of touch with it's players....so be it. I will not continue to argue that, we have both made our points and I think it should stand as that.

 

As far as the reply matter....perhaps I was being a bit too harsh. Yes, you have a right to respond (though I wasn't engaging you with the initial comment). If you feel that strongly about it, I welcome you to continue to do so.

 

But I wonder if your responses are colored a bit by the attacks others pushed on you....ones that obviously I did not participate in (if you remember)...perhaps I do not deserve as emotionally charged a reaction as others in that respect?

 

After all, the blame, IMO, sits entirely with Bioware. Not with the players IMO. Not the ones that liked it as it was or didn't initially, not those that felt satisfied or unhappy after. IMO it was handled poorly from start to finish.

 

Again, as I have said countless times, Bioware should have known that creating a resource printing machine would have been a bad idea...and an even worse idea to then nerf it into oblivion. This, to me, is the very DEFINITION of a lack of understanding of your own playerbase.

 

For me, they fixed the problem when they fixed crew missions....which they should have done in the first place IMO.

 

But...I digress.

 

BTW...your attitude is not what I meant as juvenile. The specific comment was. Only that comment, nothing more.

Edited December 22, 2016 by LordArtemis

[DarthSpuds]

No, it's not. If you look at Eric's initial post addressing the complaints, it says that BW made the slot machine in response to the favorable reaction to the Nightlife event. *That* shows that BW was, in fact, in tune with the player base (

 

If the only new/different content is the Nightlife Event then it is OBVIOUS that people will play it.

 

The metrics do not necessarily show players want RNG because Nightlife had RNG.

 

The metrics do almost certainly show that players are starving for something new, something different, to break the boredom of 2+ years of no new content other than Keeping Up With The Valkorions episodes.

 

Bioware uses metrics to justify any decision it wants, but the answer a set of metrics gives you is only as good as the questions posed of it.

 

All The Best

[Anzel]

I think it's funny to see people (EA/BW people maybe???) trying to defend SWTOR in this context. The award was for "Worst MMO Business Model". SWTOR currently has 67% of the vote. This is out of a good sized list that includes games like STO, WoW, EVE and Pokemon Go.

 

There are literally MILLIONS of players out there playing *just* those games. SWTOR received over 2300 votes. A game like WoW, which has MILLIONS of players received 77 votes. EVE has hundreds of thousands of active players and they received 11 votes. ELEVEN.

 

How long has EVE been around for? How long has WoW been around for? Do they make money?

 

There's no way around this one folks. People HATE the way EA/BW monetize this game. You are on the WRONG side of this issue. Instead of saying, "Well we need to make money somehow.". Or, "That is a crappy site." Or, "Nobody plays those games". Maybe you should be thinking about WHY you got 67% of the vote. What are three things you can act on in the next 30 days to change or just improve the situation?????

[TUXs]

WoW, which has MILLIONS of players received 77 votes. EVE has hundreds of thousands of active players and they received 11 votes. ELEVEN.

That's wild when you think about it...out of millions of players, W0W only had 77 votes. Chances are, they have more players quit each month than we have total subs. SWTOR has thousands of players, yet 2700 votes. That speaks volumes!!!

[MadCuzBad]

That's wild when you think about it...out of millions of players, W0W only had 77 votes. Chances are, they have more players quit each month than we have total subs. SWTOR has thousands of players, yet 2700 votes. That speaks volumes!!!

 

It just goes to show you how badly this development team has really struck the nerve of its player base. I am beginning to think this is a secret Disney experiment of how much pain an MMORPG player will endure before they quit. If someone told me they were honestly doing that I would have no problem believing them. And that is truly sad. How sad.

[TUXs]

It just goes to show you how badly this development team has really struck the nerve of its player base. I am beginning to think this is a secret Disney experiment of how much pain an MMORPG player will endure before they quit. If someone told me they were honestly doing that I would have no problem believing them. And that is truly sad. How sad.

Likewise. There's no other possible reason that doesn't involve complete idiocy that I could believe. It has to be EA/Disney seeing just how far they can push addicts...err...MMO players.

[MadCuzBad]

Likewise. There's no other possible reason that doesn't involve complete idiocy that I could believe. It has to be EA/Disney seeing just how far they can push addicts...err...MMO players.

 

Well at least we could tell our grandchildren someday that we participated in this experiment, lol. This is so sad.

[PlasmaJohn]

It just goes to show you how badly this development team has really struck the nerve of its player base. I am beginning to think this is a secret Disney experiment of how much pain an MMORPG player will endure before they quit. If someone told me they were honestly doing that I would have no problem believing them. And that is truly sad. How sad.

I have a slightly different conspiracy theory: GC and telling the non-subs to GT-flip-O are a desperate attempt to give management a harsh lesson on the damage their greedy decisions are doing to this MMO.

 

Yes, it's a bit out there and I used to consider it plausible up until I read the interviews Ben did with MassivelyOP and MMORPG.com. Nothing worse to a creative endeavor than a "good idea fairy" with authority.

[JennyFlynn]

I don't like to be negative or pessimistic really but at this point it does feel as though EA said "Look we're done with this title so just do what you can to keep it afloat and milk subs for as long as possible."

 

I do believe with more investment, with more resources made available to the development team this game could flourish again but it feels as though EA's given up on the SWTOR title and with that, BW has been forced to kind of give up as well. I just can't see any other reason for the kind of poor decision making we've seen and I'd hate to think the dev team is genuinely just that incompetent and estranged from both the game and its playerbase.

[MadCuzBad]

I have a slightly different conspiracy theory: GC and telling the non-subs to GT-flip-O are a desperate attempt to give management a harsh lesson on the damage their greedy decisions are doing to this MMO.

 

Yes, it's a bit out there and I used to consider it plausible up until I read the interviews Ben did with MassivelyOP and MMORPG.com. Nothing worse to a creative endeavor than a "good idea fairy" with authority.

 

The fact that any of us are even giving pause to any of this just tells you the state of affairs here. This is truly a very dark time for SWTOR. Darker than I have ever seen since the day it launched.

[TUXs]

I don't like to be negative or pessimistic really but at this point it does feel as though EA said "Look we're done with this title so just do what you can to keep it afloat and milk subs for as long as possible."

I feel exactly the same way Jenny.

[MadCuzBad]

I don't like to be negative or pessimistic really but at this point it does feel as though EA said "Look we're done with this title so just do what you can to keep it afloat and milk subs for as long as possible."

 

I do believe with more investment, with more resources made available to the development team this game could flourish again but it feels as though EA's given up on the SWTOR title and with that, BW has been forced to kind of give up as well. I just can't see any other reason for the kind of poor decision making we've seen and I'd hate to think the dev team is genuinely just that incompetent and estranged from both the game and its playerbase.

 

^^^^^^ That's the frustrating part right there. That is what drives me nuts about all of this. It will only take a few things to make this game awesome and thriving. Its not like this game isn't loved because it is. And this game is a good game with ALOT of potential but its just amazing how they just wont get things in the right direction. It amazes me. It seems everything they are doing lately is in the wrong direction.

 

I played AION with some friends years ago. I hated the game but never the less I saw a failing game. It was closing server and doing server mergers constantly. It was doomed. Then a development team took control of the mess that was being created by incompetent people and turned it around. Now AION is busting at the seams with life, They have added several NEW servers and the games popularity is growing leaps and bounds. Which brings me to SWTOR. This game absolutely blows away AION in almost every way. And yet here we sit with absolutely dead servers and a player base so toxic right now that it scares me to think of the future of this game.

 

Why is this company destroying this game? Why is AION players smiling from ear to ear and enjoying the growth of the game they love and we sit here kicking rocks and spewing toxins. This is not right. This company should be embarrassed and ashamed of itself. They are doing a HORRIBLE job. And I can prove that by presenting you the successes of AION, a game with far less invested in it than this game without having the biggest title behind it, Star Wars. Shame on you bioware!

[ShadessaWayland]

^^^^^^ That's the frustrating part right there. That is what drives me nuts about all of this. It will only take a few things to make this game awesome and thriving. Its not like this game isn't loved because it is. And this game is a good game with ALOT of potential but its just amazing how they just wont get things in the right direction. It amazes me. It seems everything they are doing lately is in the wrong direction.

 

I played AION with some friends years ago. I hated the game but never the less I saw a failing game. It was closing server and doing server mergers constantly. It was doomed. Then a development team took control of the mess that was being created by incompetent people and turned it around. Now AION is busting at the seams with life, They have added several NEW servers and the games popularity is growing leaps and bounds. Which brings me to SWTOR. This game absolutely blows away AION in almost every way. And yet here we sit with absolutely dead servers and a player base so toxic right now that it scares me to think of the future of this game.

 

Why is this company destroying this game? Why is AION players smiling from ear to ear and enjoying the growth of the game they love and we sit here kicking rocks and spewing toxins. This is not right. This company should be embarrassed and ashamed of itself. They are doing a HORRIBLE job. And I can prove that by presenting you the successes of AION, a game with far less invested in it than this game without having the biggest title behind it, Star Wars. Shame on you bioware!

 

Aion is a fantasy mmorpg that get way more players duo the fact that's its for every1

 

SWTOR and Star Trek online are more for fan based and its less populair then any fantasy mmorpg

 

you must really like sci fi and the story behind it

[Eshvara]

 

I played AION with some friends years ago. I hated the game but never the less I saw a failing game. It was closing server and doing server mergers constantly. It was doomed. Then a development team took control of the mess that was being created by incompetent people and turned it around. Now AION is busting at the seams with life, They have added several NEW servers and the games popularity is growing leaps and bounds. Which brings me to SWTOR. This game absolutely blows away AION in almost every way. And yet here we sit with absolutely dead servers and a player base so toxic right now that it scares me to think of the future of this game.

 

Why is this company destroying this game? Why is AION players smiling from ear to ear and enjoying the growth of the game they love and we sit here kicking rocks and spewing toxins. This is not right. This company should be embarrassed and ashamed of itself. They are doing a HORRIBLE job. And I can prove that by presenting you the successes of AION, a game with far less invested in it than this game without having the biggest title behind it, Star Wars. Shame on you bioware!

 

I'm not sure where you got the idea from that Aion players are happy and smiling. Aion N/A is going trough a merge because their numbers are falling and have been. They currently have 5 servers and are merging them into 2 new servers.

Quite a lot of people are unhappy about aion, they have a horrible problem with bots, patches have been behind the already delayed schedule, and the communication between Korea and the west isn't that great.

While Aion probably isn't the worst, it's not the paradise you're making it out to be. You should also specify if you're talking about EU or N/A.

[XhrisShan]

I did notice after you posted the thread, that white knights started posting on the review site

 

How many work at Bio?

And even the white knights offer some criticism of the game because they know they won't sound convincing otherwise.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

.

 

Bioware uses metrics to justify any decision it wants, but the answer a set of metrics gives you is only as good as the questions posed of it.

All The Best

 

Well they actually first force everyone to do the content they want them doing and THEN look at the metrics.

 

"Oh look no one is running the operations we actively discouraged them to run by removing that as the source of end game gearing- guess no one wants new ops."

 

Ben reiterated this stupid logic in a few interviews popping - basically saying people might not want what they are asking for ( lol ) and they actually want what they are mostly doing so they will focus on what they are mostly doing.

 

Honestly I started to feel seething rage every time I read anything to do with Ben lately and it's only forums rules that stop me truly stating my thoughts on how he has handled this game and what should happen to him going forward.

 

Those interviews basically made me realise this game has no positive future going forward, maybe the occasional reason to resub every now and then on a major story content drop but otherwise meh ... this ship is being actively sunk by those captaining it.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Aion is a fantasy mmorpg that get way more players duo the fact that's its for every1

 

SWTOR and Star Trek online are more for fan based and its less populair then any fantasy mmorpg

 

you must really like sci fi and the story behind it

 

Star *********** Wars ... less popular? Lol.

[Darkside]

They are right... Their F2P model is one of, if not the, most restrictive of all of them.... At least of the big games anyways...

 

ESO, the only real restriction is 10% less XP gain and a crafting bag... big whoop

STO, their only annoying restriction is the cap, which you can buy out of. Otherwise you can do everything a sub can do (shoot most of the PWE games are like this)

LOTRO, hell you can earn your points to buy stuff in game, but your gonna grind for it. You may have to buy the content, but only once.

 

SWTOR, minimal hotbars, no access to all content, no access to end game, reduced XP, content limits (PvP), credit caps, etc... The only annoying thing here you can buy out of is quickslots... Everything else is either sub or piss off...

 

 

That is because the devs are 100% afraid to design a good f2p model. They know that if they offered one, almost every sub in the game would go f2p. Then they could no longer hide their inept and absurd design philosophies from the EA bean counters. This game is not worth a sub price, or the CM ridiculousness. It is only the Star Wars name, and the ability to play in that ip that has kept the mmo afloat. Any other mmo and it would have been canceled already.

[Jujubon]

Star *********** Wars ... less popular? Lol.

 

I know right, that guys is literally on drugs lol. Star Wars license should literally be a way print your own money but Bioware have somehow messed it up lol.

[eartharioch]

Well they actually first force everyone to do the content they want them doing and THEN look at the metrics.

 

Based on metrics from KotFE, BW has determined that players like long corridors full of unavoidable skytroopers, cut scenes that last long enough for players to take a bio break in between chances to make choices, and using companions with no customization options.

[eartharioch]

But I wonder if your responses are colored a bit by the attacks others pushed on you....ones that obviously I did not participate in (if you remember)...perhaps I do not deserve as emotionally charged a reaction as others in that respect?

Based on our prior interactions, I assume you can take a bit of good-natured ribbing, but yes, it is possible that my annoyance with people to whom I don't bother to reply bleeds through a bit; if so, I apologize. I meant to be playful, not juvenile.

 

After all, the blame, IMO, sits entirely with Bioware. Not with the players IMO. Not the ones that liked it as it was or didn't initially, not those that felt satisfied or unhappy after. IMO it was handled poorly from start to finish.

Agreed 100%.

 

Again, as I have said countless times, Bioware should have known that creating a resource printing machine would have been a bad idea...and an even worse idea to then nerf it into oblivion. This, to me, is the very DEFINITION of a lack of understanding of your own playerbase.

What I am saying is that I don't think they intended to release what they released. The CSM was released in the same patch as the Grade 8 mats being added to the JJ vendors. Both were things players wanted, but they didn't work well together. The fault is all BWs, but IMO, it's 100% design / implementation errors and not a lack of knowing *what* the players wanted.

 

Anyway, I'm probably out of here for a month or so -- sub ends today, Steam Winter sale starts today (not that I planned it that way, but not complaining), so my posting privileges will probably end soon. I'll check back next month when BW announces its Group Content plans and retokenizes operations and wzs.

Edited December 23, 2016 by eartharioch

[MadCuzBad]

I know right, that guys is literally on drugs lol. Star Wars license should literally be a way print your own money but Bioware have somehow messed it up lol.

 

It is amazing TBH

[ShadessaWayland]

Star *********** Wars ... less popular? Lol.

 

yup swtor star trek gw2 aion and more are no match for LOL dota 2 overwatch WOW and more

 

we don't even come close also easy to see ad twitch

 

 

League of Legends

87,833

 

Star Wars: The Old Republic

256

 

so yea our game is not that populair

Edited December 23, 2016 by ShadessaWayland

[LordArtemis]

Based on our prior interactions, I assume you can take a bit of good-natured ribbing, but yes, it is possible that my annoyance with people to whom I don't bother to reply bleeds through a bit; if so, I apologize. I meant to be playful, not juvenile.

 

I didnt want it to seem like an apology was required eartharioch....I may have criticized that single comment, but I do enjoy our exchanges...and yes, your rather good ribbings from time to time. Youve gotten me with some good ones to be sure.

 

 

What I am saying is that I don't think they intended to release what they released. The CSM was released in the same patch as the Grade 8 mats being added to the JJ vendors. Both were things players wanted, but they didn't work well together. The fault is all BWs, but IMO, it's 100% design / implementation errors and not a lack of knowing *what* the players wanted.

 

I see what your saying. Though I may not agree entirely, the logic fits.

[BeeblesTV]

It really is quite ****. I cannot believe to this day they still make you buy hotbars, what a joke. UI functions should not be for sale.