It's not Enough

[Sargrith]

Wait, so they listen and take steps and you cry because they didn't take enough steps?

 

Don't make perfect the enemy of the good.

 

Also, your idea is just terribad. Returning to bosses dropping tokens or gear that we have to roll for is a return to the ninja life. I and many others were so @#$%^$%# tired of people stealing gear. Props to the devs for an attempt to improve the current system after listening to feedback, but returning to gear drops means returning to uneasy ops and wondering who is going to run away with my gear.

 

It was always RNG, because that's what /need is. To quote the world's best spy: "duh and/or hello". The difference is that the new RNG created a worse drop rate of set bonus pieces. If they can bring the overall drop rate back closer to where it was without subjecting us to the greed of our fellow ninja players, I call it a solid win.

 

I'll leave your 'half a brain' quip out there, although if you're going to keep softballing them over the plate...

 

They didn't listen. They heard what they wanted to. Their change isn't going to help. Ninja life? Really that is all you have. Seriously I have not been ninja'd in 4.0 ever. I form ops with my guild mostly but also with the community using the community channel to gather people. We run on the honor system and no one steals, it just isn't done.

 

If your big issue with the 4.0 system was ninja looters, I think it isn't the 4.0 system that is your issue. Find a guild or group of trustworthy people and that isn't an issue anymore. Ninja looting may happen, I've never seen it but it may. If it is happening to you all the time that you are scared to run ops then maybe that's a social issue you need to deal with not a gearing issue that should be wrecking the game for everyone else.

[Sargrith]

Yep. Winning the lottery is random, playing the lottery is not.

 

In an reasonable group who runs together often its not random at all. You look out for each other and everyone will get the piece it just may not be this run. But it will happen and as a group you know what to run to get it.

[Sargrith]

I was fairly impressed that they're working toward a change so soon. While it isn't dumping the stat'd gear from the RNG system, which is what I would prefer, I think this is a good starting point to fixing the bad idea.

 

From what I understood, and please correct me if I didn't understand correctly, each boss from an op will drop some sort of gear token that's somewhat randomized for the early bosses. For the final boss of the OP there will be a specific piece of gear that is known so the people who need it know where to go in order to get it.

 

Each CXP box will also drop the new currency, used in conjunction with the tokens, to get other specific pieces of gear from a vendor.

 

To me, this system solves my main complaint with the RNG from the CXP boxes...the having to rely on "RNGesus" for your gear. Now you have a specific way to work toward a full set of gear, that isn't random in any way, and still uses the CXP boxes which the devs are so geeked about.

 

Also, you still have the chance at set pieces from the CXP boxes like (the new) normal.

 

No the only boss that will always drop a piece is the final boss. All others may drop a piece. I am saying they all need to drop a piece. That would be a real fix, also they need to dissolve the connection to command ranks/tokens. You got your UA no need for anything more just turn it in and get your already earned piece.

[Hichitsuki-hime]

They didn't listen. They heard what they wanted to. Their change isn't going to help. Ninja life? Really that is all you have. Seriously I have not been ninja'd in 4.0 ever. I form ops with my guild mostly but also with the community using the community channel to gather people. We run on the honor system and no one steals, it just isn't done.

 

If your big issue with the 4.0 system was ninja looters, I think it isn't the 4.0 system that is your issue. Find a guild or group of trustworthy people and that isn't an issue anymore. Ninja looting may happen, I've never seen it but it may. If it is happening to you all the time that you are scared to run ops then maybe that's a social issue you need to deal with not a gearing issue that should be wrecking the game for everyone else.

 

you know a LOT of people were making suggestions on how to fix the system right? and in fact more than one person has come up with ideas very close to what they've decided to do. so yes they DID listen... just maybe they didn't listen to you.

[Hichitsuki-hime]

No the only boss that will always drop a piece is the final boss. All others may drop a piece. I am saying they all need to drop a piece. That would be a real fix, also they need to dissolve the connection to command ranks/tokens. You got your UA no need for anything more just turn it in and get your already earned piece.

 

if they all drop a piece that will kinda defeat the point of making a new system, which they won't do anytime soon lol. :D maybe drop more than 1 token, but really, they give an inch and you want a mile instantly. seriously, be a bit more patient. it won't hurt any :D i for one am definitely happy they're willing to adjust the system in the first place and am very happy these tokens will be legacy wide

[Voblat]

Introducing a grind if there is new content to play is not so bad, people complete the grind while enjoying new content and tend not to really notice. Its how most MMOs work.

 

Introducing a big, fat grind and then expecting players to do it using 5 year old content? It was heading for disaster from day one.

 

Had we been given daily areas on the new planets, a flashpoint on each one and some operation, maybe to beat the artifical intelligence behind that planet scorpio is on, things would not seem as bad as they do.

 

As a solo player who not only doesn't like PvP so much (low level was fun during DvL, but i'm not good enough at it at high level and people take it very seriously) and I don't want to disrupt PvPers fun by hanging around in matches just for cxp, the quickest route to cxp I have found for myself is doing heroics with the bonus for completing 5 you get through the GC interface.

 

I first did Dromund Kaas heroics the day after launch (a group of four else we got massacred, fun times), expecting a paying customer to grind 300 levels of cxp on that content is an insult, no matter how many times they try and dress it up, and thats before we get to the 26 command boxes I have opened without finding anything useful.

 

The proposals change nothing for me, and still offer no way to gear my alts (that I was just being encouraged to have last week) effectively.

[AscendingSky]

That won't be a wise strategy. This would mean that you lose all the possible gear drop from the other bosses. For conquest people do it exactly because they are not interested in the loot.

 

If the interpretation I'm seeing is right, and that there will only be a chance of gear token loot dropping from all the bosses before the last? If they set the chance low enough, it will be far more cost-effective in terms of time spent for any raiding group to just farm the final bosses (with guaranteed drops) of multiple raids. Especially on ops like SnV with seven bosses; why run through all the bosses for a 5% chance at a random gear token when you can just farm the final boss eight times in far less time and give everyone on the team a guaranteed token?

 

So that's why I think there should be a guaranteed drop of a gear token from each boss. Maybe what kind of token it can be can be randomized, whereas the final boss drops a specific token? As long as we don't re-introduce the highlighted HM that made it far too easy to farm the top tier of gear, that would be a perfectly reasonable system, with the GC just being a supplement on the side.

Edited December 16, 2016 by AscendingSky

[Sargrith]

you know a LOT of people were making suggestions on how to fix the system right? and in fact more than one person has come up with ideas very close to what they've decided to do. so yes they DID listen... just maybe they didn't listen to you.

 

 

Really I don't agree. I think a lot wanted rng gone completely. So no they didn't listen. Just like they didn't before it was launched. This isn't a real change, it doesn't make a real difference and it still incorporates their broken system. So proof of listening requires actions that fit with what most people actually had issues with. This isn't it.

[BelenUmeria]

No. Simply and utterly no. This is subjective. It is rooted in my own (subjective) sense of rewards:

 

I do not need this participation token principle. There is no issue with running an operation two or three times for a piece of gear. Espescially not on different characters. There is no reasonable justification to say: "You just did one run of Ravagers story mode! Here is an entire set of tier 1 gear for your troubles!" It's a boring mechanic, and it is ten times worse than 4.0 with it's highlighted operations ever was.

 

If you want gear, you can certainly work for it. Just handing you an entire set of tokens for every mindless SM run you do is the most boring suggestion I have ever heard.

 

Safety mechanics so you are rewarded a single piece of guaranteed gear for your time investment of X hours? Sure. But there's no way in hell I'd agree to someone getting an entire set of gear as personal loot for running a single operation on a single evening. It's boring. It's instant gratification. It beats the entire point of working for BiS gear. If you can just run one SM, one HM and then one NiM to get BiS gear on almost any character? What's the point of gear progression?

 

If this was meant to represent that every boss drops a token similar to 4.0, and that drop doesn't involve personal loot, then I take that back. I can get behind that.

 

 

 

That can be discussed though. There should be a way for everyone to obtain set pieces through certain activities. The rate at which the different activities acquire the full tokens should be different though.

 

You do realize that you have to roll against 8 people, right? Only one person out of those 8 gets a piece and you can only run that op once per week. If you get unlucky on rolls, you may never get the US. Before, 5 -7 people would have a chance to roll. Now it is slashed to 1.

 

That is idiotic.

[Sargrith]

if they all drop a piece that will kinda defeat the point of making a new system, which they won't do anytime soon lol. :D maybe drop more than 1 token, but really, they give an inch and you want a mile instantly. seriously, be a bit more patient. it won't hurt any :D i for one am definitely happy they're willing to adjust the system in the first place and am very happy these tokens will be legacy wide

 

That's the point. The new system is what people have been saying they don't want. They are still holding tightly onto it not listening to what people have been saying. Let it go. Waiting a month for a non-fix isn't really of any value to anyone.

[Tsetso]

If the interpretation I'm seeing is right, and that there will only be a chance of gear token loot dropping from all the bosses before the last? If they set the chance low enough, it will be far more cost-effective in terms of time spent for any raiding group to just farm the final bosses (with guaranteed drops) of multiple raids. Especially on ops like SnV with seven bosses; why run through all the bosses for a 5% chance at a random gear token when you can just farm the final boss eight times in far less time and give everyone on the team a guaranteed token?

 

Could work if everyone in your raid group has 8 alts. Still, doesn't change the fact that the token is predetermined and there are 14 pieces but only 9 operations. Or, more precisely 12 pieces because of the relics and implants. So 25% of the gear will still come from rng bosses.

[Tsetso]

You do realize that you have to roll against 8 people, right? Only one person out of those 8 gets a piece and you can only run that op once per week. If you get unlucky on rolls, you may never get the US. Before, 5 -7 people would have a chance to roll. Now it is slashed to 1.

 

That is idiotic.

 

As someone earlier posted, you can play the lockout game if in static group,

[BelenUmeria]

and i tell you again, this is NOT entirely true for the entire community. a lot of people are just angry about the RNG. i was a bit pissed that there was no way to make the grind faster or mitigate bad RNG, cause force knows, RNG certainly hates me, but in my opinion they're giving us a way to still keep gearing up. you think 1 token guaranteed is too little? yes i think so too. am i gonna yell at them to scrap the entire system? no i won't. if i think raids are not rewarding enough, i'll go pvp instead. at least i won't depend completely on luck.

do i hope they make some more steps forward such as having more than 1 token per raid? hell yes. do i hope they add token fragments as reward for flashpoints and uprisings and groupfinder reward? absolutely.

but again, i'm not gonna behave like a rabid creature and demand complete surrender lol.:D

 

I am tired of wait and see. I did that with every expansion only to be let down. Do I have Kira back? No.

 

Bioware lies. Constantly. They underperform: Constantly.

 

Look at Guild Ships. They are terrible and just decorations and they have done nothing with them since.

 

No wait and see. It is an awful system and I will not play until it is gone.

 

You wait weeks to get ONE piece and then it is not even remotely optimized. Screw them. At least that could have dropped optimized gear if it was RNG.

[Hichitsuki-hime]

I am tired of wait and see. I did that with every expansion only to be let down. Do I have Kira back? No.

and i want a chance to romance lord scourge on my jedi knight or have the character's race influencing their class stories and how they're seen through the story. that is not likely to happen either though

Bioware lies. Constantly. They underperform: Constantly.

that is true i suppose... or maybe like a lot of people have realized by now you just don't have to expect too much out them lol

Look at Guild Ships. They are terrible and just decorations and they have done nothing with them since.

well. i was hoping i'd be able to build my stronghold from scratch. like in sims :D

No wait and see. It is an awful system and I will not play until it is gone.

well.. then.... unsub and go play somehting else?

You wait weeks to get ONE piece and then it is not even remotely optimized. Screw them. At least that could have dropped optimized gear if it was RNG.

no one is stopping you from getting crafted gear or keeping old enhancements if they work better for you really.

check my forum history since 5.0 dropped and you'll see i'm not a white knight if that's what you are thinking, but seriously, they ARE trying. so let them try before you blow up lol.

[Hichitsuki-hime]

That's the point. The new system is what people have been saying they don't want. They are still holding tightly onto it not listening to what people have been saying. Let it go. Waiting a month for a non-fix isn't really of any value to anyone.

should i go find some quotes about how people object more to lack of no new content to go along with the grind and gear depending on RNG, not the concept of Galactic Command? i believe i've read some over the last week or 2 >.>

[MacCleoud]

While it is not as easy to get gear as it was before. This does allow me to play the game the way I like to play. So..... the people they are designing this for are the people like me.

 

I understand what you guys are complaining about though. When I was raiding, and we were gearing everyone up, we knew what bosses we needed to hit to get gear for the people that needed it. You guys are right. going through 7 bosses and only getting 1 piece of gear is not good. If it dropped a piece FOR EVERYONE, and not one piece to be /NEED on.... THEN... I would say okay. I think that would be okay because that would ensure 8/8 in your group gets a piece, not 7/8 or 5/8 depending on the OP. What would you say to that?

 

Again.....I like the changes because they were geared directly at players like me.

[Sargrith]

check my forum history since 5.0 dropped and you'll see i'm not a white knight if that's what you are thinking, but seriously, they ARE trying. so let them try before you blow up lol.

 

 

You are acting like a white knight here. They aren't really trying. The changes they put out there aren't the right ones nor do they address the issue of rng crates being your primary source of gearing. One UA for an entire group of 8 people in a raid? You seriously think that is addressing the issue in an honest manner? Its certainly doesn't seem like an honest attempt from my point of view. It seems more like a smoke screen to make it look like they are doing something while doing nothing meaningful at all.

[Neshira]

You do realize that you have to roll against 8 people, right? Only one person out of those 8 gets a piece and you can only run that op once per week. If you get unlucky on rolls, you may never get the US. Before, 5 -7 people would have a chance to roll. Now it is slashed to 1.

 

That is idiotic.

^This.

I'm sorry but I find gearing easier than before. I want them to keep the command system and just add something for people who want it otherwise. They did that. They made gearing easier for people who want immediate rewards.

 

I got gear maybe twice from ops and usually it was something I couldn't even use. Competing with 8 people (who I would rather the gear go to since they need it more than I do and are more active in endgame content) is a lot worse than being guaranteed something that I could use to buy gear.

 

With CXP I can do the content I want to do and get shots at gear. I don't know if I'm just lucky or people are lying through their teeth because as of today I've gotten less than 20 crates but I've fully geared 3 toons with them and only ever gotten like 3 greens in that entire time.

 

The new system isn't perfect. Greens need to be removed completely and there needs to be a guaranteed set piece every 10 crates or something. CXP should be legacy wide also. However with the vendors returning and the new changes it's more fair than ever. It seems to be like people just want to buy top tier gear immediately without bothering to work for it because they somehow think that grinding in an MMO is bad when really that's ALL most MMOs are.

[Sargrith]

While it is not as easy to get gear as it was before. This does allow me to play the game the way I like to play. So..... the people they are designing this for are the people like me.

 

I understand what you guys are complaining about though. When I was raiding, and we were gearing everyone up, we knew what bosses we needed to hit to get gear for the people that needed it. You guys are right. going through 7 bosses and only getting 1 piece of gear is not good. If it dropped a piece FOR EVERYONE, and not one piece to be /NEED on.... THEN... I would say okay. I think that would be okay because that would ensure 8/8 in your group gets a piece, not 7/8 or 5/8 depending on the OP. What would you say to that?

 

Again.....I like the changes because they were geared directly at players like me.

 

In a way that's more then I am asking for. One small change though disconnect anything to do with galactic command from turning that UA into a piece and I would buy it. I don't mind going through an op and getting nothing if I had a chance at 5-7 pieces well that's good enough. Eventually it will be my turn and so on. I know what to run to get what I want so that's fine.

[TUXs]

You are acting like a white knight here. They aren't really trying. The changes they put out there aren't the right ones nor do they address the issue of rng crates being your primary source of gearing. One UA for an entire group of 8 people in a raid? You seriously think that is addressing the issue in an honest manner? Its certainly doesn't seem like an honest attempt from my point of view. It seems more like a smoke screen to make it look like they are doing something while doing nothing meaningful at all.

I think it's safe to assume that NOBODY thinks I'm a "white knight"...I think the changes they are making are more than a smoke screen. They are FAR from perfect, but at least in this new system, I can actually work towards an item I need...which was 100% missing from 5.0.

 

I understand RNG is still here, as is an eternal grind to 300, I realize alts are no better off under 5.1 than they are under 5.0...but...it's still something. Given that this is a week before Christmas, I can say that I am honestly shocked at how quickly they moved on improving gearing...not fixing it, but improving it.

[RagnarAugustus]

and i tell you again, this is NOT entirely true for the entire community. a lot of people are just angry about the RNG. i was a bit pissed that there was no way to make the grind faster or mitigate bad RNG, cause force knows, RNG certainly hates me, but in my opinion they're giving us a way to still keep gearing up. you think 1 token guaranteed is too little? yes i think so too. am i gonna yell at them to scrap the entire system? no i won't. if i think raids are not rewarding enough, i'll go pvp instead. at least i won't depend completely on luck.

do i hope they make some more steps forward such as having more than 1 token per raid? hell yes. do i hope they add token fragments as reward for flashpoints and uprisings and groupfinder reward? absolutely.

but again, i'm not gonna behave like a rabid creature and demand complete surrender lol.:D

 

You're darn right we're angry about the RNG. RNG is the issue that has been consistently brought up as the most objectionable part of 5.0 since the first 5.0 live stream and the single greatest factor in raider not playing after 5.0. The only way to fix this and please almost everyone is:

 

1. leave Galactic Command as it is for the non-end game players to get good gear and for the guys who like endless grinding.

2. Bring back 4.0 style Operations loot where there is a known loot table for each boss and each boss drops the known unassembled operations armor token.

3. PVP has been addressed in the live stream, and as a non-PVPer it seems good but I'll let PVPers decide on that.

 

Anything short of this will be incomplete and will still leave large segments of the SWTOR angry. Number 1 and 3 are already implemented, now BW just needs to stop the half measure on operations and do what we've been asking.

 

Regarding the earlier statement about the RNG system ensuring that people are "not being able to gear anyone fully in one Op", there are 14 pieces of operations gear so that's simply impossible even on a 7 boss raid to gear any one player fully. Even if we only count armor, MH and OH that's still 9 pieces of ops gear and each ops group has players that will need the gear on an alt or main. But for argument's sake, let's say a guild has a new member they want to raid with them. Where's the harm in the guild doing a gear run just for that new member so he can be geared enough to run with the guild and contribute to operations? My answer is there is no harm and such decisions should be left up to guilds and players to make. We do not need a SWTOR nanny state telling us how we should distribute loot. The community came up and enforced excellent loot rules for the ops of the week when we had 220 and 224 pieces dropping on each boss, and BW needs to trust that the community can self police.

[Andryah]

You are acting like a white knight here. They aren't really trying. The changes they put out there aren't the right ones nor do they address the issue of rng crates being your primary source of gearing. One UA for an entire group of 8 people in a raid? You seriously think that is addressing the issue in an honest manner? Its certainly doesn't seem like an honest attempt from my point of view. It seems more like a smoke screen to make it look like they are doing something while doing nothing meaningful at all.

 

Just stop with the pejoratives. You are derailing your own thread.

 

And no.. I do not think the changes disclosed yesterday are enough to fix GC.. so don't be tossing pejoratives at me either.

 

Thing is.... we all get to give our opinions here.. and the studio decides what to do. Whatever we ultimately end up with... it is not going to be the removal of RNG, and apparently they are not going to make the actual grind (effort, intensely applied to try to brute force GC) materially less then planned.

 

They are making changes that are fooling the OPs and PvP players into thinking they have been heard and complied with. What they really should be doing is reprofiling the grind to tone it down, make it work for ALL content WITH safeguards (not just selected content of OPs and PvP), and improve the ability to progress alts.

 

Simply serving one or two loud factions with changes is inappropriate... extremely inappropriate. And the side effect will be people flooding PvP and Ops to game groups for credit for Cxp.. rather then actually playing because they like that content and want to play it earnestly.

 

So.. I agree with you that it is not enough, and I disagree with you resorting to name calling just because someone has a different opinion then you.

Edited December 16, 2016 by Andryah

[Sargrith]

I think it's safe to assume that NOBODY thinks I'm a "white knight"...I think the changes they are making are more than a smoke screen. They are FAR from perfect, but at least in this new system, I can actually work towards an item I need...which was 100% missing from 5.0.

 

I understand RNG is still here, as is an eternal grind to 300, I realize alts are no better off under 5.1 than they are under 5.0...but...it's still something. Given that this is a week before Christmas, I can say that I am honestly shocked at how quickly they moved on improving gearing...not fixing it, but improving it.

 

Here's the problem with leaving rng as the primary source of gearing for raiders.

 

They wont raid. PvP is by far a better option for gearing. You will get a part of a piece, you will get more cxp per hour, you will be able to buy the exact piece you want not just what dropped from the last boss of an hour long op if you beat out the other 7 people to get it.

 

I don't agree that this is a real improvement for a raider. For a PvP enthusiast sure. But a raider, no, not really.

[DawnAskham]

^This.

I'm sorry but I find gearing easier than before. I want them to keep the command system and just add something for people who want it otherwise. They did that. They made gearing easier for people who want immediate rewards.

 

I got gear maybe twice from ops and usually it was something I couldn't even use. Competing with 8 people (who I would rather the gear go to since they need it more than I do and are more active in endgame content) is a lot worse than being guaranteed something that I could use to buy gear.

 

With CXP I can do the content I want to do and get shots at gear. I don't know if I'm just lucky or people are lying through their teeth because as of today I've gotten less than 20 crates but I've fully geared 3 toons with them and only ever gotten like 3 greens in that entire time.

 

The new system isn't perfect. Greens need to be removed completely and there needs to be a guaranteed set piece every 10 crates or something. CXP should be legacy wide also. However with the vendors returning and the new changes it's more fair than ever. It seems to be like people just want to buy top tier gear immediately without bothering to work for it because they somehow think that grinding in an MMO is bad when really that's ALL most MMOs are.

 

The only one lying through their teeth is you - it isn't possible to 'fully gear' three characters in less than 20 crates when just the left side items that can't be dropped in legacy shells take up five slots per character (or 15 crates with perfect RNG, leaving 5 crates to fill 9 slots which can use legacy shells).

[TUXs]

Here's the problem with leaving rng as the primary source of gearing for raiders.

 

They wont raid. PvP is by far a better option for gearing. You will get a part of a piece, you will get more cxp per hour, you will be able to buy the exact piece you want not just what dropped from the last boss of an hour long op if you beat out the other 7 people to get it.

 

I don't agree that this is a real improvement for a raider. For a PvP enthusiast sure. But a raider, no, not really.

Maybe I'm wrong on how the system works?

 

The way I understood it...each boss will drop some component, even possibly a full piece. Get enough of those components and I can directly buy a piece of gear...right? Like say each boss drops 1 component and I need 10 for a helmet...I need to kill 10 bosses before being guaranteed that helmet, right?

 

And the last boss is always guaranteed to drop an actual piece that we can turn in...right?