RNG is perfect for SWTOR and I'll explain why.

[Aowin]

as much as I would like unassembled, I don't think it will happen. According to BW many players weren't able to figure out the different currencies and which set/vendor was for their advanced class/spec. The pieces dropping for spec are to eliminate the confusion some apparently had in determining this.

 

But being able to trade one set piece for another would be a nice thing - but again, not something that I think would happen.

 

Simplicity is definitely the key. Whatever BioWare ends up doing to make obtaining certain pieces more easier, it will be as simple and straight to the point as possible. The team has gone through great pains to discard excess features and really streamline everything. They aren't about to just complicate things again by putting systems on top of systems.

[curulz]

Simplicity is definitely the key. Whatever BioWare ends up doing to make obtaining certain pieces more easier, it will be as simple and straight to the point as possible. The team has gone through great pains to discard excess features and really streamline everything. They aren't about to just complicate things again by putting systems on top of systems.

 

I would disagree about simplicity. They replaced one clunky system with a different clunky system. As I've stated before, it doesn't help people understand tertiary stats and the mixture of each, power vs mastery, etc. all they did was eliminate the possibility of someone purchasing the wrong gear.

[Transcendent]

According to BW many players weren't able to figure out the different currencies and which set/vendor was for their advanced class/spec. The pieces dropping for spec are to eliminate the confusion some apparently had in determining this.

 

So how do BioWare know this? Because players were buying stuff on mains and sending it to alts? Or buying different gear because they wanted different stats on enhancements etc? Or players who had zero use for the gear, wanted specfic looks and the stats didn't matter, because of level sync?

 

If they're just looking at metrics again, I'm absolutely certain they've thought about all the variables. (sarcasm) Absolutely certain. (/sarcasm)

[Jamtas]

Simplicity is definitely the key. Whatever BioWare ends up doing to make obtaining certain pieces more easier, it will be as simple and straight to the point as possible. The team has gone through great pains to discard excess features and really streamline everything. They aren't about to just complicate things again by putting systems on top of systems.

 

to be fair, a tool-tip saying Guardian Tank, or guardian DPS, Sentinal DPS, etc would ahve been the way to go. Giving them names that were never explained I cna see how that is confusing.

 

Renaming of the commendations to common, glowing and radiant was also a foolish decision.

 

Part of any confusion has to do with their terrible naming schemes

Edited December 13, 2016 by Jamtas

[JennyFlynn]

I don't see why they don't just make it so every few ranks you automatically unlock a class/specialization specific piece. For example Rank 5 gets you a belt, rank 10 boots and build it up like that across tiers as well. And the ranks in between continue to award the 'fun box' BW insists on us having. That way you still have to put in the work, everyone still has the many various ways of doing said work but now you're striving towards a specific goal rather than a 'chance'. Let RNG apply to the fluff and things but make appropriate armor and set pieces a sure fire guarantee. And add a tick box/menu in the interface that lets players select which specialization they're going for so they can be sure to get the right gear and stats.

[Jamtas]

I don't see why they don't just make it so every few ranks you automatically unlock a class/specialization specific piece. For example Rank 5 gets you a belt, rank 10 boots and build it up like that across tiers as well. And the ranks in between continue to award the 'fun box' BW insists on us having. That way you still have to put in the work, everyone still has the many various ways of doing said work but now you're striving towards a specific goal rather than a 'chance'. Let RNG apply to the fluff and things but make appropriate armor and set pieces a sure fire guarantee. And add a tick box/menu in the interface that lets players select which specialization they're going for so they can be sure to get the right gear and stats.

 

Because, as Ben put it, RNG is EXCITING!

 

Ben and RNG is basically parents telling their kids to eat their lima beans b/c it build character. It's good for you. You will like it.

Edited December 13, 2016 by Jamtas

[LordArtemis]

I was... wait for it... actually defending you against somebody who said you were against *any* nerf to the CSM:

 

>>>Quote: Originally Posted by Jamtas

>>>To be fair, that is LA's reaction prior to any nerf happening on the CSM

 

My point was that you had already conceded that the purple jawa stuff was dropping too much (despite having initially been happy) and that it was the [unannounced, but obvious IMO] nerfing of the certs that pushed you, and several others over the edge.

 

Ok, that certainly seems like a reasonably accurate assessment. I would only point out now that my disappointment with them right over the CSM stems from the incident as a whole at present. How it was released, how it was handled, how it was nerfed and then forgotten. I have stated this multiple times.

 

Since your statement may stem from misunderstanding my position, I will clarify it....why would they release something that they would obviously find is putting out too much, only to chat about it in a passive way and then nuke it from orbit. If it needed that kind of adjustment, it never should have been released in it's original form in the first place.

 

Based on your first post I would assume you were not happy with the crafting changes and adjustments...so I suppose we both lost in the deal.

 

I have to admit...I never understood your personal animosity you seemed to have with people at the time who liked the CSM the way it was. It was rather....odd.

Edited December 13, 2016 by LordArtemis

[JennyFlynn]

Because, as Ben put it, RNG is EXCITING!

 

Ben and RNG is basically parents telling their kids to eat their lima beans b/c it build character. It's good for you. You will like it.

 

RNG can be exciting, just not in this instance. I mean if you decide to squander your referral Cartel Coins on a CM box here or there without looking for any specific drop, yeah it can be exciting in the sense of "Will it give me something worth using/selling or just Jawa junk and Companion gifts?". Same with the fluff, will you stumble upon something you haven't collected yet or whatever and that part is, imo, fine. Just don't apply that same crappy RNG to obtaining specific gear upgrades and such. If they want it to take time and work, that's okay too as long as the player can be certain that time and work investment actually pays off and right now they can't be, it all comes down to luck.

[Hichitsuki-hime]

as much as I would like unassembled, I don't think it will happen. According to BW many players weren't able to figure out the different currencies and which set/vendor was for their advanced class/spec. The pieces dropping for spec are to eliminate the confusion some apparently had in determining this.

 

But being able to trade one set piece for another would be a nice thing - but again, not something that I think would happen.

 

seriously? 0.o i mean i once managed to get a vanguard piece for my commando lol. but that was just once. since then i've learned to read which abilities are mentioned in set bonus and see if i have those or not lol..... it don't require much brain i don't think... i mean... even i managed lol:D:D:D

[Hichitsuki-hime]

Simplicity is definitely the key. Whatever BioWare ends up doing to make obtaining certain pieces more easier, it will be as simple and straight to the point as possible. The team has gone through great pains to discard excess features and really streamline everything. They aren't about to just complicate things again by putting systems on top of systems.

but like.... a vendor is NOT a system. and they've been around for 5 year..... i'm sure we're all familiar with how to read abilities and see if we have them or not.:D

i mean they've already simplified so many things, a bit ore and it will be a giant sandbox. aside from some veteran/master content and pvp it's all too easy as it is lol:D:D i hear SW:G used to be MUCH harder than this lol

[Jeweledleah]

seriously? 0.o i mean i once managed to get a vanguard piece for my commando lol. but that was just once. since then i've learned to read which abilities are mentioned in set bonus and see if i have those or not lol..... it don't require much brain i don't think... i mean... even i managed lol:D:D:D

 

I I did mess up majorly once, mostly because I was used to playing a different class and bonuses sorta sounded close enough (both tech healing ones) so I basically ended up with 2 piece bonus on a merc and 4 piece on operative, instead of 6 piece on a merc like I was supposed to (too used to playing an operative). it was a complete derp, but at the same time, taking a choice out of player's hands completely is not a solution to that.

 

they could have copied something that Blizzard did that was actualy good. where rather then going to vendor, you can just click on your token and it turns into a set piece. its based on your current spec, but even then - they could have just created an interface where you are given and option to chose the role you want the piece for and bam - all the issues with players accidentally picking out wrong piece - solved.

Edited December 14, 2016 by Jeweledleah

[Hichitsuki-hime]

I I did mess up majorly once, mostly because I was used to playing a different class and bonuses sorta sounded close enough (both tech healing ones) so I basically ended up with 2 piece bonus on a merc and 4 piece on operative, instead of 6 piece on a merc like I was supposed to (too used to playing an operative). it was a complete derp, but at the same time, taking a choice out of player's hands completely is not a solution to that.

 

they could have copied something that Blizzard did that was actualy good. where rather then going to vendor, you can just click on your token and it turns into a set piece. its based on your current spec, but even then - they could have just created an interface where you are given and option to chose the role you want the piece for and bam - all the issues with players accidentally picking out wrong piece - solved.

keep in mind, Jewel. that takes effort. but the idea is a very good one. especially since they already created a new and shiny interface for opening command crates and Cartel Market crates. why not set bonus as well? 0.o lol

[Aowin]

but like.... a vendor is NOT a system. and they've been around for 5 year..... i'm sure we're all familiar with how to read abilities and see if we have them or not.:D

i mean they've already simplified so many things, a bit ore and it will be a giant sandbox. aside from some veteran/master content and pvp it's all too easy as it is lol:D:D i hear SW:G used to be MUCH harder than this lol

 

You'd be surprised with how many people don't understand the most basic of systems in an MMORPG. I knew commandos who stacked strength. I saw sentinels stacking aim. There were folks who did not understand how to properly spec into a class tree. There were even those who didn't even know which cell/form they were supposed to use. Whether this was laziness, ignorance, or just stupidity on the part of the player, BioWare has gone through and removed any of the confusion.

 

Class stats were replaced with mastery. Class trees were replaced with disciplines. Cells/Forms have become passives. Expertise was removed from the game as well as every gear vendor to help remove the amount of systems to make gear progression less confusing.

 

I think there's a very high chance BioWare may bring back some sort of vendor for the new gear sets. But, the entire idea, originally, was to remove all of these systems to prevent confusion of some players.

 

SWG was always harder than SWTOR. It was one of the most complex sandbox MMORPGs ever made with an incredibly steep learning curve, which is why it never really gained a huge following (even though it was the best MMO I ever played). SWTOR was always a casual theme park MMO, even in closed beta, but it has become a lot more casual and simple over time due to BioWare removing features, simplifying them, and going F2P.

Edited December 14, 2016 by Aowin

[Hichitsuki-hime]

You'd be surprised with how many people don't understand the most basic of systems in an MMORPG. I knew commandos who stacked strength. I saw sentinels stacking aim. There were folks who did not understand how to properly spec into a class tree. There were even those who didn't even know which cell/form they were supposed to use. Whether this was laziness, ignorance, or just stupidity on the part of the player, BioWare has gone through and removed any of the confusion.

*snip*

SWG was always harder than SWTOR. It was one of the most complex sandbox MMORPGs ever made with an incredibly steep learning curve, which is why it never really gained a huge following (even though it was the best MMO I ever played). SWTOR was always a casual theme park MMO, even in closed beta, but it has become a lot more casual and simple over time due to BioWare removing features, simplifying them, and going F2P.

 

i can totally agree with that. those gunslingers with aim gear that "helped them aim at the target better", sorcerer dps in NIM DF with defense gear because "it will hurt less", sentinels that didn't interrupt on draxus because "what's an interrupt? O.O"

 

but at the end of the day that's catering to the idiot / lazy factor. SWTOR was my first MMORPG. so i never really had something to compare it with, not when i started playing for sure. I always made sure to read up on what the tooltips say. ask in guildchat or general chat what my set bonus was. If was not sure about something, i always made sure to ask. because better i ask a "n00b" question while learning than go to a raid and be like *** is going on

I will admit there was one instance that still makes my guildies and friends laugh to no end. When i brought my lvl 55 scoundrel to SM S&V..... and it was only on thrasher when someone asked me why i was so far from the boss that it finally came out that a scoundrel is actually a melee class. i figured since it had a gun, i could stay at 30 m lol.

and then i accidentally picked up a vanguard piece of set bonus for my commando lol.

however, that was the IT. I'd always go and read ops strategies on Dulfy, make sure i had a basic understanding of what i'm supposed to do. I mean, it's such an awesome site, it has just about everything u can possibly need lol.

So i generally figure, if i could figure out all that on my own, means anyone potentially can. they just need to put in the minimal effort. Of course there is always the possibility that BW will listen to those yelling OP, please nerf!! or too hard, pls dumb it down.

Is it a good thing or not? Hell if i know. I personally believe that it is unnecessary, but hei it's not up to me at the end of the day =) I just honestly hope that if and when we get the next SW MMO, they will have the race of the character actually MATTER and have an influence on the story, if not have a whole game-long race quest chain =) along with the class quests =) hat would make leveling alts much more interesting imo. even if u make 2nd toon of same class, u can make it a different race and that alone would be a big enough change that the story would feel fresh =):D:D

[Jamtas]

seriously? 0.o i mean i once managed to get a vanguard piece for my commando lol. but that was just once. since then i've learned to read which abilities are mentioned in set bonus and see if i have those or not lol..... it don't require much brain i don't think... i mean... even i managed lol:D:D:D

 

you might be surprised. Sents running with def gear b/c "it make them able to take more damage" , sniper taking aim gear to help with being ranged, guardians using sent dps set pieces etc

[Tsetso]

seriously? 0.o i mean i once managed to get a vanguard piece for my commando lol. but that was just once. since then i've learned to read which abilities are mentioned in set bonus and see if i have those or not lol..... it don't require much brain i don't think... i mean... even i managed lol:D:D:D

 

At one point people were doing it even intentionally. Sins loved the 2 pc sorc set for the free force.

[Aowin]

but at the end of the day that's catering to the idiot / lazy factor. SWTOR was my first MMORPG. so i never really had something to compare it with, not when i started playing for sure. I always made sure to read up on what the tooltips say. ask in guildchat or general chat what my set bonus was. If was not sure about something, i always made sure to ask. because better i ask a "n00b" question while learning than go to a raid and be like *** is going on

I will admit there was one instance that still makes my guildies and friends laugh to no end. When i brought my lvl 55 scoundrel to SM S&V..... and it was only on thrasher when someone asked me why i was so far from the boss that it finally came out that a scoundrel is actually a melee class. i figured since it had a gun, i could stay at 30 m lol.

and then i accidentally picked up a vanguard piece of set bonus for my commando lol.

however, that was the IT. I'd always go and read ops strategies on Dulfy, make sure i had a basic understanding of what i'm supposed to do. I mean, it's such an awesome site, it has just about everything u can possibly need lol.

So i generally figure, if i could figure out all that on my own, means anyone potentially can. they just need to put in the minimal effort. Of course there is always the possibility that BW will listen to those yelling OP, please nerf!! or too hard, pls dumb it down.

Is it a good thing or not? Hell if i know. I personally believe that it is unnecessary, but hei it's not up to me at the end of the day =) I just honestly hope that if and when we get the next SW MMO, they will have the race of the character actually MATTER and have an influence on the story, if not have a whole game-long race quest chain =) along with the class quests =) hat would make leveling alts much more interesting imo. even if u make 2nd toon of same class, u can make it a different race and that alone would be a big enough change that the story would feel fresh =):D:D

 

Well, that's what MMOs do now. They appeal to the lowest common denominator, which just so happens to be lazy/stupid gamers. You should have played SWG. You couldn't be an idiot in that game if you wanted to get very far, which is why it scared so many players away. It wasn't a game for the faint of heart who love to have their hands held and guided through the experience.

 

Truth be told, a lot of that confusion was BioWare's fault with regards to range and melee classes and just overall poor game design. It's really the reason base classes were removed from the game. Some classes were somewhat hybrids, and there were some abilities and play styles that were supported that should not have been. The same is the case with a vanguard, which is really a melee class, but it actually has some range.

 

Well, you have to realize you are not the average gamer. Most players who play SWTOR likely aren't going to theory craft, min/max, read progression raiding guides, or even attempt to figure out what is their most optimal rotation for their class. Most players are just going to play the game, and as long as they can get through the easy content, they are likely happy. Ultimately, BioWare is going to always appeal to those gamers the most because BioWare has to ensure those players can do the easiest content. This, of course, is also a business so they don't want to scare away potential customers because the game was too hard, as was the case with SWG.

 

If BioWare were to do another Star Wars MMO, which could actually happen since EA has the license to Star Wars games and BioWare is in charge of EA's RPG department, I think it would be different in many ways. Eight individual class stories likely wouldn't be a feature. At most, due to the nature of MMOs having factions, there would be two stories for both sides. From there, BioWare could try and inject some more variety by having several voice actors for classes to choose from (ala DAI) and trying to create variance in interactions with NPCs and companions based on your class.

 

Personally, I'd like to see BioWare tackle a sandbox MMO, like SWG, rather than another theme park MMO, like SWTOR. The former is far easier to support and requires less frequent content updates due to being player-driven. The problem with theme park MMOs, like WoW and SWTOR, is their content is always becoming stale quickly and players get bored until the next expansion. Theme parks are just MMOs not built for longevity and historically have bad player retention, with the obvious exception of WoW.

 

Give us a BioWare Story mixed with various player-driven systems, such as more in-depth crafting, open world PvP, a space simulator, player-created events, player cities, more depth to guilds, player structures that actually give freedom over customization (not SWTOR's limited hooks), and we'd have something special.

Edited December 14, 2016 by Aowin

[Hichitsuki-hime]

Well, that's what MMOs do now. They appeal to the lowest common denominator, which just so happens to be lazy/stupid gamers. You should have played SWG. You couldn't be an idiot in that game if you wanted to get very far, which is why it scared so many players away. It wasn't a game for the faint of heart who love to have their hands held and guided through the experience.

Truth be told, a lot of that confusion was BioWare's fault with regards to range and melee classes and just overall poor game design. It's really the reason base classes were removed from the game. Some classes were somewhat hybrids, and there were some abilities and play styles that were supported that should not have been. The same is the case with a vanguard, which is really a melee class, but it actually has some range.

i wish i knew about SWG lol. unfortunately i finished up all the SW RPG games i could find just about during launch of TOR lol. could pay sub cause not enough pocket money, so had to wait until the F2P trial lol. so i wouldn't be able to afford SWG haha. though i think there is some sort of emulator or somehting?

 

Well, you have to realize you are not the average gamer. Most players who play SWTOR likely aren't going to theory craft, min/max, read progression raiding guides, or even attempt to figure out what is their most optimal rotation for their class. Most players are just going to play the game, and as long as they can get through the easy content, they are likely happy. Ultimately, BioWare is going to always appeal to those gamers the most because BioWare has to ensure those players can do the easiest content. This, of course, is also a business so they don't want to scare away potential customers because the game was too hard, as was the case with SWG.

in fact lol, i do believe i'm quite average. i'm just not dumb or lazy lol. on business part i do agree with u, though that's unfortunate for us not starter level lol

If BioWare were to do another Star Wars MMO, which could actually happen since EA has the license to Star Wars games and BioWare is in charge of EA's RPG department, I think it would be different in many ways. Eight individual class stories likely wouldn't be a feature. At most, due to the nature of MMOs having factions, there would be two stories for both sides. From there, BioWare could try and inject some more variety by having several voice actors for classes to choose from (ala DAI) and trying to create variance in interactions with NPCs and companions based on your class.

if it was a system like Mass Effect and Dragon age it would work out well lol. =) i love in Origins the choices between if you are a dalish elf or a city elf, noble dwarf of an outcast. it doesn't change the story as much as it could have, but it's a good idea to start with hehe.

Personally, I'd like to see BioWare tackle a sandbox MMO, like SWG, rather than another theme park MMO, like SWTOR. The former is far easier to support and requires less frequent content updates due to being player-driven. The problem with theme park MMOs, like WoW and SWTOR, is their content is always becoming stale quickly and players get bored until the next expansion. Theme parks are just MMOs not built for longevity and historically have bad player retention, with the obvious exception of WoW.

Give us a BioWare Story mixed with various player-driven systems, such as more in-depth crafting, open world PvP, a space simulator, player-created events, player cities, more depth to guilds, player structures that actually give freedom over customization (not SWTOR's limited hooks), and we'd have something special.

it would be very awesome if you didn't even pick your class at the beginning just race and gender =) and then during the story you would have to choose your alliance and your class. as part of the story =) so the story would tell how you became a jedi/sith or whatever lel

[Aowin]

i wish i knew about SWG lol. unfortunately i finished up all the SW RPG games i could find just about during launch of TOR lol. could pay sub cause not enough pocket money, so had to wait until the F2P trial lol. so i wouldn't be able to afford SWG haha. though i think there is some sort of emulator or somehting?

 

There is an emulator of SWG, but it's of Pre-CU (the original build of the game), which is extremely old and imperfect. NGE (the final build of the game), right as the game was shut down (a week before SWTOR launched ironically enough), had a nice mixture of sandbox as well as theme park (raids, battlegrounds, storyteller, galactic invasions, atmospheric flight, and more were added).

 

Sadly, there isn't an emulator of that version. The other issue is since these are non-profit teams with limited resources and staff, not much progress has been made on any of them. SWGEMU is the farthest along, but a lot of key features (such as Jedi and JTL (space simulator)) are still missing.

 

in fact lol, i do believe i'm quite average. i'm just not dumb or lazy lol. on business part i do agree with u, though that's unfortunate for us not starter level lol

 

if it was a system like Mass Effect and Dragon age it would work out well lol. =) i love in Origins the choices between if you are a dalish elf or a city elf, noble dwarf of an outcast. it doesn't change the story as much as it could have, but it's a good idea to start with hehe.

 

it would be very awesome if you didn't even pick your class at the beginning just race and gender =) and then during the story you would have to choose your alliance and your class. as part of the story =) so the story would tell how you became a jedi/sith or whatever lel

 

I personally don't believe games need to be dumbed down. I believe developers can make games with steep learning curves, provided they give players enough guidance and tips to thrive early on in the experience. Either way, SWTOR is not that MMO and is quite the polar opposite of that idea.

 

The origin stories in DAO were interesting, but it was costly for BioWare in terms of development and they didn't really mean anything later on in the game. I do agree those minor differences (race, background) can provide a more personalized tale, which is nice.

 

That's more or less how SWG was during the Pre-CU. You made your avatar, but you actually didn't pick your profession and specialize until after getting into the game and conversing with trainers. Of course, there were 34 professions in Pre-CU and you could mix and match however you wanted (with a limited amount of skill points).

 

Your idea, from a storytelling-perspective, is interesting. I could see it being quite costly and complex later on as BioWare would have to branch more and more as you pick your class and that has varying effects later. It would really come down to planning well in advance and looking at whether such a task is cost-effective or not.

Edited December 14, 2016 by Aowin

[casirabit]

There is an emulator of SWG, but it's of Pre-CU (the original build of the game), which is extremely old and imperfect. NGE (the final build of the game), right as the game was shut down (a week before SWTOR launched ironically enough), had a nice mixture of sandbox as well as theme park (raids, battlegrounds, storyteller, galactic invasions, atmospheric flight, and more were added).

 

Sadly, there isn't an emulator of that version. The other issue is since these are non-profit teams with limited resources and staff, not much progress has been made on any of them. SWGEMU is the farthest along, but a lot of key features (such as Jedi and JTL (space simulator)) are still missing.

 

 

Going to disagree with you on this since I do play an emulator with NGE and most of the battles, Exar Kun, etc, space and whatnot are in the game. So there is an NGE version that is actually further than the Pre-Cu.

 

They even have the life day event in the game right now.

Edited December 14, 2016 by casirabit

[Aowin]

Going to disagree with you on this since I do play an emulator with NGE and most of the battles, Exar Kun, etc, space and whatnot are in the game. So there is an NGE version that is actually further than the Pre-Cu.

 

I stand corrected then. Although, I question how polished the experience is and how many players are even aware of it (swgemu is by far the most well-known). Either way, the biggest problem with emulators is just a lack of support. I may have to look into that though.

 

Edit: I didn't care for any of the events other than Remembrance Day. Life Day brings back horrible memories of the Star Wars Holiday Special... Galactic Moon Festival wasn't bad though.

Edited December 14, 2016 by Aowin

[casirabit]

I stand corrected then. Although, I question how polished the experience is and how many players are even aware of it (swgemu is by far the most well-known). Either way, the biggest problem with emulators is just a lack of support. I may have to look into that though.

 

We have some good devs and though our population is small (776 unique accounts)

[Aowin]

We have some good devs and though our population is small (776 unique accounts)

 

Very nice. If you wouldn't mind, just for the sake of saving time, pm me a link to the website? I'll have to investigate and look into it later. I'm just curious if it's really the final build of NGE before the game shut down or if it's an earlier build. It sounds pretty far along if raids are in, such as Exar Kun.

[casirabit]

Very nice. If you wouldn't mind, just for the sake of saving time, pm me a link to the website? I'll have to investigate and look into it later. I'm just curious if it's really the final build of NGE before the game shut down or if it's an earlier build. It sounds pretty far along if raids are in, such as Exar Kun.

 

Already done sir.

[Hichitsuki-hime]

Already done sir.

but but... i want one to and do i actually have to have an existing copy of the game to be able to play this? or can it be downloaded? 0.o never tried an emulator, so have no clue how these work lol:D:D