The case for Galactic Command

[Sargrith]

It doesn't address it entirely, but if they made T3 available earlier and set bonuses more easily obtainable (like I suggest in the OP), there wouldn't be much else to fix.

 

Better to throw out the broken system and do something else. This system is driving people off because its broken and not fun, that alone means it needs to go away. This is a game, it should be fun. When you take the fun out of the game you've done the unforgivable. They have with this system made their game less fun and to make amends simply remove it and come up with something else. Even going back to the old system would be a vastly better idea.

[Eli_Porter]

this is so painfully wrong I'm getting an actual headache. the point is not to keep leveling through the system over and over. the point is to get upgrades so that you could have acess to more content. starting from scratch? is not encouraging. its DISCOURAGING. because 1. once you reach t3 - the REAL grind begins. reaching t3 is only means to getting a CHANCE at upgrades. you don't stop at t3 unless you don't care about gear and content it gives you acess to, in which case? the argument is moot.

 

The point of making T3 more easily available is not to make the upgrades or "the real grind" come faster. It's to make sure that time you spend on alts isn't much less efficient. As in "I'm playing an alt on T1, but I could be getting T3 drops right now so I feel like I'm wasting my time". THAT'S the part I want to address.

 

And what I meant by saying it encourages playing with your alts once you reach T3, is that if you have two characters BOTH at T3, and your main requires 4k CXP to level while your alt requires 3K CXP, you'd be more inclined to play with your alt.

Edited December 5, 2016 by Eli_Porter

[Tsillah]

You're severely overestimating the advantages of 230 over 228..

 

You're severely missing the point.

 

Not a surprise as such, because you seem to have the empathy of a concrete wall.

 

Once you understand that you're not the template for mankind, this might get better though.

[Eli_Porter]

You're severely missing the point.

 

Not a surprise as such, because you seem to have the empathy of a concrete wall.

 

Once you understand that you're not the template for mankind, this might get better though.

 

Instead of resorting to insults I'd like you to actually tell me what point I've missed, thank you. I'm not here to fight people, I'm here to have a reasonable discussion.

[Alssaran]

I must have missed the part where you've proven me wrong. Please link to your post.

 

With pleasure.

 

This.

 

228 gear is not suitable for equipping alts because it still keeps them locked out of doing most forms of content in a meaningful way.

 

This is a direct statement of why the proposed solution cannot work. There is an immense power creep between 242 gear and 228 gear that is not a bolster issue, but completely intended. Solving that would require an entire re-design of the approach to gear in regards to PvP. If any alt wants to be reliable for doing PvP, he needs baseline PvP gear. Maybe even purple gear that works like 242, but ONLY in warzones. 228 puts an alt into a spot of being unable to do anything right.

 

This is a direct admission that the RNG gear system in it's current "absolute" form is not favourable. "If you don't get the crafting schematics you need, you need to make due with being on the lower end of the power creep until RNG favours you." That's what your argument boils down to. It's an issue with GC rewards - as I pointed out here.

 

The system isn't a 180°, the numbers just need adjustments.

 

This system has no legacy support whatsoever. It ignores alt progression, legacy level, legacy perks are nonexisting and there is no way to trade (set) gear inbetween alts. This system is a complete turn from the legacy armour, the tradeable tokens, the legacy reputation/comm grind and other things.

 

You're severely overestimating the advantages of 230 over 228.

 

There is an inherit advantage in 228 over 230. This only gets worse when we go into tier 2 or tier 3. What if my PvP alts are locked at 228, and people continue to progress to 236 and 242? The advantage will only get worse.

 

Eight companions to 40 is madness, you just need two to 40 running the best missions to get purple mats easily. Even one to 40 if you're patient enough.

 

Why is it madness? Did you not admit a few moments ago that maxing out companions pays out in the long run? Why would I not try to max out eight companions then? Isn't it an easy thing to do and pays out in the long run? Or is it not worth it to level anything past one companion, seeing that the return on your investment is low? Which one is it? Does having "a couple" of maxed companions/40 companions provide a significant advantage that should be pursued, or is "having more than two madness"?

 

By your own admission:

 

You don't need level 50 companions to get purple mats, just get a couple to 40 and you're set

 

Why has "a couple" suddenly become "madness", but you just need two? That post is from fifteen minutes ago...

 

And what I meant by saying it encourages playing with your alts once you reach T3, is that if you have two characters BOTH at T3, and your main requires 4k CXP to level while your alt requires 3K CXP, you'd be more inclined to play with your alt.

 

I wouldn't. I would be inclined to uninstall SWTOR and run away. The grind from 1-300 is 300+ hours per character (assuming 1 crate/level per hour would be true). Do you think I'd do that two or three times? People won't even bother to get two characters to tier 3. That's the entire issue of GC.

Edited December 5, 2016 by Alssaran

[Dunderheid]

Instead of resorting to insults I'd like you to actually tell me what point I've missed, thank you. I'm not here to fight people, I'm here to have a reasonable discussion.

 

Not when you refuse to acknowledge othres' statements and continue to impose your own suggestions, which have already been refuted.

 

That's not a definition of discussion, reasonable or otherwise. It's the definition of Trolling.

[Swtorevolution]

I'm sorry Eli that you're dealing with this.

[Dunderheid]

AAAANNNDD Relax.

 

Swtorevelution is here to show you how trolling is really done!

[Sargrith]

Instead of resorting to insults I'd like you to actually tell me what point I've missed, thank you. I'm not here to fight people, I'm here to have a reasonable discussion.

 

I don't see your arguments as reasonable though. I see them as distortions of the truth. The truth is their system is taking away from their game. This gearing method doesn't belong in any MMO. It certainly does not belong in one that is suppose to be story driven, because story driven to me means encourages you to enjoy the story and all the parts of it. But that is exactly the opposite of what this does, it actively punishes you for playing alts...well for the first year or more.

 

And as for PvP at 70, I don't think there is bolder there, on purpose. Gear is suppose to matter in PvP per Eric. So don't even think of playing alts in PvP....great system you got there. Killing fun at every chance.

[Tsillah]

Instead of resorting to insults I'd like you to actually tell me what point I've missed, thank you. I'm not here to fight people, I'm here to have a reasonable discussion.

That's rich coming from you and I quote:

Good job ignoring the part where I said sets should be more easily obtainable.

You're not reasonable at all.

 

Your whole argumentation is that because it works out for you, it works out for everybody. Which is complete and utter bull. And whenever someone explains this to you, you dismiss it by again reiterating that everything's fine because it works for you.

 

I've said various times you need to stop seeing yourself as a template for mankind or the lowest common denominator because that's not a reasonable stance to begin with.

 

You are only interested in maintaining that you're right and you are not actually trying to understand other points of view but merely trying to disprove them with persistent repetition. And this unwillingness to even try to see the point of view of other players is why I say that you have the empathy of a concrete wall. To me that's not an insult but an observation.

 

Now the moment that you can let go of just look at the numbers on gear and start opening up to what baseline gear (which is 230 and not 228) to players who've gone through cycles of level cap raises and having to regear all over, then perhaps a reasonable discussion is possible but so far you've given no sign whatsoever of being reasonable.

[TUXs]

Galactic Command is fine...RNG gearing isn't.

[CorellianWannabe]

But we do need to rule out people who just want everything on a silver platter. These people plague WoW too and their opinions on wanting everything within a week can be ignored.

 

In other words completely forget the way the previous expansion was designed because this attempt at stringing along players will "totally work" this time?

[Jeweledleah]

The point of making T3 more easily available is not to make the upgrades or "the real grind" come faster. It's to make sure that time you spend on alts isn't much less efficient. As in "I'm playing an alt on T1, but I could be getting T3 drops right now so I feel like I'm wasting my time". THAT'S the part I want to address.

 

And what I meant by saying it encourages playing with your alts once you reach T3, is that if you have two characters BOTH at T3, and your main requires 4k CXP to level while your alt requires 3K CXP, you'd be more inclined to play with your alt.

 

again - wrong. I want to play alts becasue i ENJOY playing them not because its slightly faster to level one over the other in this idiotic roulette system. moreover - if I'm playing an alt for gear - its becasue I want to gear that alt for a specific purpose. I'm not going to switch to another alts that yet again, i have to start from scratch, just because their grind is at the stage where levels come faster. it doesn't change the rng factor of it, or the overall length of the grind.

[Alssaran]

Galactic Command is fine...RNG gearing isn't.

 

I would alter that statement slightly:

 

Galactic Command is fine. RNG needs to be used delicately. It's like salt. A slight bit of RNG can spice up the food, but too much ruins the evening for everyone.

 

There was always an element of RNG gearing in MMORPGs. There's always that slight piece of RNG set gear you might not get lucky on. And I actually like that. In most cases, I think needing that one last piece of good gear keeps me going on a character. What should be altered is the idea that characters can't even acquire baseline purple gear in 5.0 without adapting to this tideous grind.

[TUXs]

With pleasure.

 

This.

 

228 gear is not suitable for equipping alts because it still keeps them locked out of doing most forms of content in a meaningful way.

 

This is a direct statement of why the proposed solution cannot work. There is an immense power creep between 242 gear and 228 gear that is not a bolster issue, but completely intended. Solving that would require an entire re-design of the approach to gear in regards to PvP. If any alt wants to be reliable for doing PvP, he needs baseline PvP gear. Maybe even purple gear that works like 242, but ONLY in warzones. 228 puts an alt into a spot of being unable to do anything right.

 

This is a direct admission that the RNG gear system in it's current "absolute" form is not favourable. "If you don't get the crafting schematics you need, you need to make due with being on the lower end of the power creep until RNG favours you." That's what your argument boils down to. It's an issue with GC rewards - as I pointed out here.

 

 

 

This system has no legacy support whatsoever. It ignores alt progression, legacy level, legacy perks are nonexisting and there is no way to trade (set) gear inbetween alts. This system is a complete turn from the legacy armour, the tradeable tokens, the legacy reputation/comm grind and other things.

 

 

 

There is an inherit advantage in 228 over 230. This only gets worse when we go into tier 2 or tier 3. What if my PvP alts are locked at 228, and people continue to progress to 236 and 242? The advantage will only get worse.

 

 

 

Why is it madness? Did you not admit a few moments ago that maxing out companions pays out in the long run? Why would I not try to max out eight companions then? Isn't it an easy thing to do and pays out in the long run? Or is it not worth it to level anything past one companion, seeing that the return on your investment is low? Which one is it? Does having "a couple" of maxed companions/40 companions provide a significant advantage that should be pursued, or is "having more than two madness"?

 

By your own admission:

 

 

 

Why has "a couple" suddenly become "madness", but you just need two? That post is from fifteen minutes ago...

 

 

 

I wouldn't. I would be inclined to uninstall SWTOR and run away. The grind from 1-300 is 300+ hours per character (assuming 1 crate/level per hour would be true). Do you think I'd do that two or three times? People won't even bother to get two characters to tier 3. That's the entire issue of GC.

FANTASTIC post!!!

[Swtorevolution]

That's rich coming from you and I quote:

 

You're not reasonable at all.

 

Your whole argumentation is that because it works out for you, it works out for everybody. Which is complete and utter bull. And whenever someone explains this to you, you dismiss it by again reiterating that everything's fine because it works for you.

 

I've said various times you need to stop seeing yourself as a template for mankind or the lowest common denominator because that's not a reasonable stance to begin with.

 

You are only interested in maintaining that you're right and you are not actually trying to understand other points of view but merely trying to disprove them with persistent repetition. And this unwillingness to even try to see the point of view of other players is why I say that you have the empathy of a concrete wall. To me that's not an insult but an observation.

 

Now the moment that you can let go of just look at the numbers on gear and start opening up to what baseline gear (which is 230 and not 228) to players who've gone through cycles of level cap raises and having to regear all over, then perhaps a reasonable discussion is possible but so far you've given no sign whatsoever of being reasonable.

 

This post reaks of cringe.

[Mowermanx]

Galactic Command is fine...RNG gearing isn't.

 

Isn't it the same thing? I mean GC was designed as an RNG system?

I'm usually good and diagnosing systems to see flaws and to find ways to rectify them, but I'm truly at a loss at how you could salvage anything from GC to be a viable system.

 

How do you remove the RNG element of it without totally dismantling the entire system?

Making it legacy doesn't do squat to fix the main issues most people have with it.

[Eli_Porter]

This.

 

228 gear is not suitable for equipping alts because it still keeps them locked out of doing most forms of content in a meaningful way.

 

Most forms of content? Are you sure?

 

Operations? Possibly, yeah. Not an experienced raider myself so I wouldn't know.

 

Ranked PvP? You need Valor 25 for it, and you'd be likely to have several 230 pieces by then.

 

This is a direct statement of why the proposed solution cannot work. There is an immense power creep between 242 gear and 228 gear that is not a bolster issue, but completely intended. Solving that would require an entire re-design of the approach to gear in regards to PvP. If any alt wants to be reliable for doing PvP, he needs baseline PvP gear. Maybe even purple gear that works like 242, but ONLY in warzones. 228 puts an alt into a spot of being unable to do anything right.

 

Again, if there's an issue with gear gating in PvP it should be fixed. And PvP already alters your stats, so altering your stats to accommodate for low-tier gear shouldn't be too difficult

 

This is a direct admission that the RNG gear system in it's current "absolute" form is not favourable. "If you don't get the crafting schematics you need, you need to make due with being on the lower end of the power creep until RNG favours you." That's what your argument boils down to. It's an issue with GC rewards - as I pointed out here.

 

I don't deny there's an issue with GC rewards, but only as far as reaching T3 and Sets is concerned. 228/230 gearing for alts is perfeclty fine as it is.

 

 

 

This system has no legacy support whatsoever. It ignores alt progression, legacy level, legacy perks are nonexisting and there is no way to trade gear inbetween alts. This system is a complete turn from the legacy armour, the tradeable tokens, the legacy reputation/comm grind and other things.

 

Why would it care about Legacy level? That seems like a curious new suggestion I haven't heard before. But I get your point, you want progression on your main to affect your alts and vice versa. And that's exactly what making T3 available earlier on would do.

 

Also, there is a way to trade gear between alts. DPS/Healing characters can give used mods to other DPS/Healing characters and while tanks have a more limited alt support, they can still get schematics and they can still disassemble their unwanted drops into CXP.

 

 

There is an inherit advantage in 228 over 230. This only gets worse when we go into tier 2 or tier 3. What if my PvP alts are locked at 228, and people continue to progress to 236 and 242? The advantage will only get worse.

 

Refer to my PvP answer above.

 

 

Why is it madness? Did you not admit a few moments ago that maxing out companions pays out in the long run? Why would I not try to max out eight companions then? Isn't it an easy thing to do and pays out in the long run? Or is it not worth it to level anything past one companion, seeing that the return on your investment is low? Which one is it? Does having "a couple" of maxed companions/40 companions provide a significant advantage that should be pursued, or is "having more than two madness"?

 

Due to how crafitng works in SWTOR, you don't need more than a few at a high level.

 

 

I wouldn't. I would be inclined to uninstall SWTOR and run away. The grind from 1-300 is 300+ hours per character (assuming 1 crate/level per hour would be true). Do you think I'd do that two or three times? People won't even bother to get two characters to tier 3. That's the entire issue of GC.

 

I don't. I want every character to reach T3 in a reasonable time (a few weeks).

[DisIzMe]

This post reaks of cringe.

 

This post is too edgy.

[Voblat]

Isn't it the same thing? I mean GC was designed as an RNG system?

I'm usually good and diagnosing systems to see flaws and to find ways to rectify them, but I'm truly at a loss at how you could salvage anything from GC to be a viable system.

 

How do you remove the RNG element of it without totally dismantling the entire system?

Making it legacy doesn't do squat to fix the main issues most people have with it.

 

Basic MMO design, you ding the achievement you get the reward.

 

RNG can be ok if it just affects a small area of the reward, that is you are guaranteed something useful, with a chance of something special.

 

Galactic Command is bad design because it breaks the ding-reward system. You ding the level, then get no reward. Do that 5 or 6 times, why bother with the next level?

 

The reward is there to encourage players to keep playing, this is basic stuff for game designers, or should be.

 

What they have done is frankly idiotic.

Edited December 5, 2016 by Voblat

[DawnAskham]

Just my opinion, but GC as it appears seems to be a fail for several reasons.

 

Character progression is based totally on RNG - so two players with similar time spent in game could have vastly different levels of character progression even though they put in the same effort, leaving one ineffective in competitive play (PVP) and undesirable in cooperative play (PVE).

 

The system only rewards time, but not risk / skill - participating in the highest difficulty PVE content or competing at the highest levels of PVP has no influence on character progression. A player running story chapters over and over while doing a GSF match here and there could end up with a more progressed character than someone running NiM Ops and rated PVP.

 

It also seems doubly fail to me given the content for which one would normally progress a character to perform better and take on higher difficulty challenges is mostly outdated recycled content (PVE), while PVP seems to have gone back to a power is heavily based on gear model with a large spread in power between basic gear and RNG top end gear - which makes the choice of this system baffling.

 

Now if GC had been implemented as an alternative gearing system for those only interested in story and stuff like heroics, or provided only cosmetic type rewards, while competitive PVP and high end PVE still had outcome based gear progression (win the match, gain the rating, kill the boss, complete the Op), I think it would have been well received.

Edited December 5, 2016 by DawnAskham

[TUXs]

Isn't it the same thing? I mean GC was designed as an RNG system?

I'm usually good and diagnosing systems to see flaws and to find ways to rectify them, but I'm truly at a loss at how you could salvage anything from GC to be a viable system.

 

How do you remove the RNG element of it without totally dismantling the entire system?

Making it legacy doesn't do squat to fix the main issues most people have with it.

No, it's not. Although RNG gearing is tied to CXP/GC, doesn't mean it needs to be. Bring back tokens and gear vendors and leave GC as bonus gear or unique cosmetic items...not as the only source for required items.

[ShardODarkness]

Having RNG in GC is fine...EXCEPT, that it needs to be used to determine if you get some thing useful to you or something special...not if you get anything or nothing, thats idiotic implementation.

[Swtorevolution]

This post is too edgy.

 

Don't hurt yourself on it.

[Swtorevolution]

Basic MMO design, you ding the achievement you get the reward.

 

RNG can be ok if it just affects a small area of the reward, that is you are guaranteed something useful, with a chance of something special.

 

Galactic Command is bad design because it breaks the ding-reward system. You ding the level, then get no reward. Do that 5 or 6 times, why bother with the next level?

 

The reward is there to encourage players to keep playing, this is basic stuff for game designers, or should be.

 

What they have done is frankly idiotic.

 

This post makes me want to go play Pokemon and hunt for rares.