"All gold NPCs now grant 1 Command Experience point (down from 10)."

[Swtorevolution]

I usually consider myself a reasonable person... So I was reasonably trying to calm down and enjoy the game for the last several hours... And I can't.

I was keeping away from heroics and just playing the story (which I liked a lot btw. during the last couple of days) and every time I encounter a golden mob and it gives me 1 cxp it feels like a slap on a face.

I'm trying to talk myself in to giving it a chance to be fixed, hoping that we get some announcement that they are rolling back the changes (and yes, I was enjoying a good old "kill mobs for exp" progression) but I just can't stop asking myself if I'm doing the reasonable thing by playing.

While the story was great everything else about this expansion is broken - the DvL is permanently stuck on one pole, and I mean permanently, haven't seen the other side win even once. Which is a design flaw.

The galactic command is not only random to the insane degree, but althou openly hostile to solo play starting today, while still being broken via PvP (how long before it all devolves in to a permanent win trading for cxp? My guess we are talking hours, not even days, it's well on the way)...

It's full of glitches and the servers lag in the most inconvenient way.

Is there anyone in Bioware that actually knows SOMETHING about MMOs? At leas played some at some point? The level of awful design decisions is staggering.

And I really, really wanted to love this expansion...

 

DvL. Democracy in action.

[YlliyaXor]

Because nothing else in game could give you 120 cxp every one to two minutes.

 

You are mistaken.

[AlaecusMcFly]

DvL. Democracy in action.

 

Nope. DvL stands for "we don't have the team here at BW Austin to create new creative content, so here are reasons to replay the content you've been playing over and over and over for 5 years". It's all a Con Job, trying to stretch income until the next year when they release another 2 hours worth of content and try justifying putting a price tag on this game.

Edited December 4, 2016 by AlaecusMcFly

[Darkside]

You are mistaken.

 

Every one to two minutes into infinity with no end? I wouldn't mind a pm about your findings!

[Alssaran]

Bioware wants you to enjoy the game, not force you into doing things you don't enjoy.

 

Then they should balance the different activities around the idea that they reward the same amount of content on the basic level. MMORPG players were "raised" by years of playing different MMOs to think in terms of efficiency. I'll always grind the mob that gives the best droprates on upgrade stones in BDO. Not necessarily the pretty ones. I'll always choose one quest over another if the token reward is better.

 

MMORPG players are people who love choosing the efficient path. In order to create a system that encompasses all those playstyles in the same matter, rewards must match the same criteria - one playstyle cannot be more efficient than the other. If you nerf the GCXP rewards for doing heroics, you take the choice away - a person is forced to choose between two scenarios. Either they do what they like every day and they lose out on the gear curve (meaning they will be left behind), or they choose to do what's not fun in order to have a mild chance at staying on par with everyone else.

 

Choosing the first option will be difficult when they want to try out other forms of content that might be fun.

 

And because the players of this game are so obsessed with rewards over fun, they (the players) will do whatever content they don't want to do if it means getting the fastest rewards.

 

This is not a mindset that is unique to "this game". We're raised to take the way of highest efficiency and the fastest way to reach the desired result. It's all around us. Don't denounce it as "the players of this game". It's a human behaviour found everywhere. Developers need to take that into account when designing features.

 

If you aren't having fun farming gold mobs now then you never were having fun farming gold mobs and were only doing it for the rewards.

 

That is a logical fallacy. The provided rewards were a big factor in making the activity fun. By taking that reward away, they stripped the activity of a big part of it's value - thus, it is less fun than before. You're repeating this argument because it is unrefutable for your opponent. Not because it is true or logical, but because you can claim it without the opponent having a way to refute it based on objective and accessible evidence.

 

I had fun farming mobs inbetween queues because it was a good way to farm GCXP, and it rewarded gear boxes that I could use to engage in other activities. By neglecting said rewards, the ability has become less interesting and fun - there is no fun in farming mobs anymore.

 

Something can be fun and rewarding, and something can be fun because it is a rewarding experience. If you had tremendous fun doing your job for ten years, your boss could just cut your salary to zero? I mean, you had fun doing your job. There's no need for a reward. Just do what you think is fun, and don't think about other variables involved.

 

DvL. Democracy in action.

 

He is correct. The design intention was to give the communities of both sides a reasonable chance at winning. Bioware factored in server communities as being unbalanced and biased towards one side. Thus, the mechanic of giving more points for the losing side was introduced. It doesn't seem to be enough though - a difference of 1-2% can offset the meter. I'm playing on Progenitor, and I have yet to see the dark side win once. Bioware said that there wouldn't be a time one side wins over the other for dozens of times in a row. That, clearly, is not the case.

Edited December 4, 2016 by Alssaran

[Darkside]

I'm was Project Manager for a team of three Devs and the sheer amount of content those three developers pushed out in one year, shows how incompetent BW Austin is, and how little they care about this game. One whole year, and this is all they could create. It's like they only have one developer on the entirety of SWTOR, who is spending half their work hours smoking weed and watching Netflix.

 

Have to agree! It's like they have a art team, a cartel market team, and then one guy who doesn't know the code well in charge of all the rest of the content. Hell, look at the menu bar for example. The guy who made that doesn't obviously play the game. He likes some design aspect of his desktop program, and said "hey I can do this in game" and "We can add so many more things to it", and well, you know the rest.

[Sshodan]

DvL. Democracy in action.

 

Broken design in action - it is a well known fact of MMO that given a "pick a side" choice the server always tilts over - if you played anything faction based you'd know it - people join the winning side and that's it. Most of the big PvP MMOs are crying bloody tears trying to balance the servers and end up with servers that have no meaningful PvP because EVERYONE is on the same side...

Answer me that - why have a polar system if everyone is always on the same pole anyway? It's never going to change you may as well just add one a vendor and tokens for everyone and be done with it. But no - now we have a system where you can get punished for not picking the "right side" by receiving less cxp and never ever getting access to the vendor for your alignment even if you farm the bosses and have 10 times more tokens than the other side - you can't spend them because the store is locked forever... Having a permanently disabled vendor in your game is a design flaw and anyone with a yok of sens would have known that.

[AlaecusMcFly]

Something can be fun and rewarding, and something can be fun because it is a rewarding experience. If you had tremendous fun doing your job for ten years, your boss could just cut your salary to zero? I mean, you had fun doing your job. There's no need for a reward. Just do what you think is fun, and don't think about other variables involved.

 

Don't say this. The neckbeard swtorevolution is just going to say "SWTOR is a game, not a job", thinking this is an acceptable counter-argument to your perfectly rational analogy.

Edited December 4, 2016 by AlaecusMcFly

[Shipwright]

How daft....

Foolishly I had rather hoped they would up gcx gain after a bit; I have one toon at 70 and already decided I will be happier just buying 228 mods etc and call it a day.

 

I'm just too casual a player to see any benefits from occasionally gaining a crate. For me, the crates are very slowly in coming.

 

The few crates I got on my single lvl 70 had the same earpiece, which was useless for the character. Are we not supposed to at least have items appropriate to our discipline? Why is my healer sorc getting accuracy on everything ( which as I mentioned "everything" was an identical earpiece)?

 

I knew then that getting anything higher than whatever 228 stuff I can eventually buy over time on the GTN would be out of the question for me.

 

So, I'll live with it.

 

But then this? They make it even SLOWER to gain gcx????

 

It is already painfully slow. Now they nerf a source of gcx by a factor of 10?

 

I can see why people are disgusted.

 

Now, I had already resigned myself to whatever I can get on the GTN. I'm out of the endgame scene as I am an old timer. Been gaming since gaming began. So it is not a disaster for me. But still, I would like to have at least entry level gear for my level.

 

If I were still looking for endgame gear....this would really turn me off. Just in principle I am truly irked by this. I did not like the whole gcx idea from the start, but like i said, I will live with what I can buy.

 

However, to make it even more punishing seems sick.

[Swtorevolution]

Then they should balance the different activities around the idea that they reward the same amount of content on the basic level.

 

Who's to say they won't? The expansion hasn't even reached it's first week yet.

 

MMORPG players were "raised" by years of playing different MMOs to think in terms of efficiency. MMORPG players are people who love choosing the efficient path.

 

That's the mindset pushed by elitists.

 

In order to create a system that encompasses all those playstyles in the same matter, rewards must match the same criteria - one playstyle cannot be more efficient than the other.

 

Or you could stop caring about rewards and play what is fun.

 

If you nerf the GCXP rewards for doing heroics, you take the choice away - a person is forced to choose between two scenarios. Either they do what they like every day and they lose out on the gear curve (meaning they will be left behind), or they choose to do what's not fun in order to have a mild chance at staying on par with everyone else.

 

Which is exactly my original point. Bioware doesn't want to force you into doing anything. So they will nerf any method of gaining unreasonably fast CXP so you reward-obsessed players won't feel forced to do it. And as for the gear-curve, who are you competing against? If anyone is going to sit you out of group content because you don't have sufficient gear, that person isn't worth playing with in the first place.

 

Choosing the first option will be difficult when they want to try out other forms of content that might be fun.

 

Craft ilvl230 gear. The only thing exclusively tied to CXP are the set bonuses.

 

This is not a mindset that is unique to "this game". We're raised to take the way of highest efficiency and the fastest way to reach the desired result. It's all around us. Don't denounce it as "the players of this game". It's a human behaviour found everywhere. Developers need to take that into account when designing features.

 

This is a game, not a job.

[Swtorevolution]

That is a logical fallacy. The provided rewards were a big factor in making the activity fun. By taking that reward away, they stripped the activity of a big part of it's value - thus, it is less fun than before. You're repeating this argument because it is unrefutable for your opponent. Not because it is true or logical, but because you can claim it without the opponent having a way to refute it based on objective and accessible evidence.

 

I had fun farming mobs inbetween queues because it was a good way to farm GCXP, and it rewarded gear boxes that I could use to engage in other activities. By neglecting said rewards, the ability has become less interesting and fun - there is no fun in farming mobs anymore.

 

Something can be fun and rewarding, and something can be fun because it is a rewarding experience. If you had tremendous fun doing your job for ten years, your boss could just cut your salary to zero? I mean, you had fun doing your job. There's no need for a reward. Just do what you think is fun, and don't think about other variables involved.

 

As you say the only reason you found it fun was the rewards. If you truly found it fun the rewards wouldn't matter.

[thatguybil]

Bioware, please explain why you said we'd earn "2-3 crates per hour" when even at level 1 that is not happening? And now you make it even slower by basically eliminating the CXP per mob?

 

Please present an answer to how we earn our 2-3 crates per hour.

 

 

I have roughly 30 hours of playtime since release

And only Command rank 19. That's with clearing RAV, EV, KP and DF.

All I have to show for it is a 230 main hand.

 

Just terrible.

[Swtorevolution]

I have roughly 30 hours of playtime since release

And only Command rank 19. That's with clearing RAV, EV, KP and DF.

All I have to show for it is a 230 main hand.

 

Just terrible.

 

But you enjoyed playing those 30 hours right? I mean it would be a bit silly playing a game you don't enjoy for 30 hours simply for gear so you can play more of the game you don't enjoy.

[Sshodan]

Bioware, please explain why you said we'd earn "2-3 crates per hour" when even at level 1 that is not happening? And now you make it even slower by basically eliminating the CXP per mob?

 

Please present an answer to how we earn our 2-3 crates per hour.

 

That was the estimation? Really? I played for well over 15 hours total in early access, even without the nerf I'm at command level 12 on that character... So less than a crate an hour and I did ALL heroics. Did not miss any mobs either, just played normally and did not camp any on purpose.

Today I played through the story content for over 4 hours... 3 of them at level 70. I'm at command lvl 2 - got one box total. So don't know what they where thinking we would be doing but it was clearly not solo play.

[Alssaran]

Who's to say they won't? The expansion hasn't even reached it's first week yet.

 

Only a fool believes in prophecy.

 

On a more serious note: Don't insult me by attempting to go down the "Well, they might still do it! Don't complain because it's early!" route. We are talking about now. We are talking about this change. Attempting to downplay this by saying they "might" buff it again in the future is nonsense.

 

This change was made right now. We're complaining about the here and now. That's as valid as it gets.

 

That's the mindset pushed by elitists.

 

No. That is the mindset we were all brought up with. You'll always take the fastest train to your destination (provided you can pay for it). You'll always take the job that brings the most salary. You'll always do the job as efficiently as possible. You'll not drive fifty miles more unless it is absolutely necessary to avoid a traffic jam. Our society is based around the idea of efficiency. If this mindset is pushed by elitists, then our society revolves around MMO elitists.

 

Or you could stop caring about rewards and play what is fun.

 

I answered that in great detail. It's insulting you do this again.

 

Bioware doesn't want to force you into doing anything. So they will nerf any method of gaining unreasonably fast CXP so you reward-obsessed players won't feel forced to do it.

 

If killing golden mobs for ten XP per mob kill is unreasonable, why has warzone activity not been nerfed? You'll need to kill ~60 golden mobs to gain 600 GCXP. A warzone loss rewards 550 GCXP. Killing sixty mobs takes six hundred seconds (assuming you need ~10 seconds per mob without downtime). That's ten minutes. The same time it takes to complete a warzone.

 

Why was 600 GCXP in ten minutes for golden mobs unreasonable, but 600 GCXP for a eight to ten minute warzone is alright?

 

I'm opening the box of pandora by pointing this gain out, but it's mathematics. By that definition you'd have to nerf warzones too. Then story. Then operations. Then chapters. And when all is nerfed, something will STILL be the most efficient way possible. You'd have to nerf that AGAIN. A vicious cycle. That's what happens when you apply your reasoning.

 

The only thing exclusively tied to CXP are the set bonuses.

 

Oh, that's not a big deal. The set bonuses are only favourable over an entire tier of item levels because the instant critical strikes and heal increases are favourable over ten crit. They are the most important factor in anything from veteran to master mode DPS. But don't let that fool you.

 

This is a game, not a job.

 

The fact that this is a game does not funamentally change unconscious player behaviour in any way, shape or form. But I think you know that. You aren't just running out of arguments.

Edited December 4, 2016 by Alssaran

[Swtorevolution]

Broken design in action - it is a well known fact of MMO that given a "pick a side" choice the server always tilts over - if you played anything faction based you'd know it - people join the winning side and that's it. Most of the big PvP MMOs are crying bloody tears trying to balance the servers and end up with servers that have no meaningful PvP because EVERYONE is on the same side...

Answer me that - why have a polar system if everyone is always on the same pole anyway? It's never going to change you may as well just add one a vendor and tokens for everyone and be done with it. But no - now we have a system where you can get punished for not picking the "right side" by receiving less cxp and never ever getting access to the vendor for your alignment even if you farm the bosses and have 10 times more tokens than the other side - you can't spend them because the store is locked forever... Having a permanently disabled vendor in your game is a design flaw and anyone with a yok of sens would have known that.

 

Why have a polar system? So people can CHOOSE which side to be on obviously. Again with the reward obsession. This is an RPG. Made by a game developer that makes RPGs. You choose your character's development. Is your reward obsession clashing with your character's development?

[Alssaran]

Why have a polar system? So people can CHOOSE which side to be on obviously.

 

But if you promote the idea that you can only do anything on the left side, nobody is going to pick the right side. Then you might as well eradicate having a choice because the system is biased towards the left. If people feel they have to pick light to participate, we might as well get rid of the system entirely.

 

Again with the reward obsession.

 

RPGs for the past twenty years have been designed around gaining rewards. From experience points and gold to equipment. The idea that RPG players are "bad" or "obsessed" for wanting something for their time is an idiocy you're promoting to give yourself at least a single argument to stand on.

Edited December 4, 2016 by Alssaran

[Quraswren]

A hand full of gamers, who willingly spent 3 days grinding out 31K mobs and maxed out CPX for the week and bw NERFs the entire swtor gaming community.

 

Thats priceless. Playing the game in a way which only the bare few would ever consider doing and everyone gets punished for it.

 

Thats the brains behind swtor right now. OMG!

 

LOL

Edited December 4, 2016 by Quraswren

[Sshodan]

Why have a polar system? So people can CHOOSE which side to be on obviously. Again with the reward obsession. This is an RPG. Made by a game developer that makes RPGs. You choose your character's development. Is your reward obsession clashing with your character's development?

 

So your question is why people want rewards? Because receiving rewards make us feel good. It brings a sense of satisfaction and accomplishment, releases endorphins and all that good stuff. It is a normal behavior - anyone with enough self confidence to have any ambition enjoys not only the activity but althou it's logical conclusion culminating and a big "feel good" boost. We play games and we enjoy winning, we work and we enjoy the payment and acknowledgment, we sing and dance and bask in approval and attention that generates. Everything we do follows the same lines. For majority of people BOTH the activity AND the result need to be enjoyable to make it worth their time.

In fact psychologically speaking it is very weird NOT to want rewards for your effort - it means you are denying yourself the "feel good" element of a game, basically making love without the "conclusion"... I hope I don't need to explain why that is not considered OK?

Edited December 4, 2016 by Sshodan

[Swtorevolution]

Only a fool believes in prophecy.

 

On a more serious note: Don't insult me by attempting to go down the "Well, they might still do it! Don't complain because it's early!" route. We are talking about now. We are talking about this change. Attempting to downplay this by saying they "might" buff it again in the future is nonsense.

 

This change was made right now. We're complaining about the here and now. That's as valid as it gets.

 

Yeah, just complain that they haven't updated the system in a whole 5 days. And no, we aren't talking about the gold mob CXP nerf, we're talking about CXP gains over all areas of the game. Don't move the goalposts. Read the post you replied to.

 

 

No. That is the mindset we were all brought up with.

 

Funny, because I rejected that mindset because it was always pushed by elitists who only ever cared about results, never players or fun.

 

You'll always take the fastest train to your destination (provided you can pay for it). You'll always take the job that brings the most salary. You'll always do the job as efficiently as possible. You'll not drive fifty miles more unless it is absolutely necessary to avoid a traffic jam. Our society is based around the idea of efficiency. If this mindset is pushed by elitists, then our society revolves around MMO elitists.

 

Or you could take the scenic route. You could become a treacher. You'll do your job well because you love the job. You could sit in that traffic jam and listen to your favourite music. Your real world analogies are useless because again, this is a game, not a job.

 

If killing golden mobs for ten XP per mob kill is unreasonable, why has warzone activity not been nerfed? You'll need to kill ~60 golden mobs to gain 600 GCXP. A warzone loss rewards 550 GCXP. Killing sixty mobs takes six hundred seconds (assuming you need ~10 seconds per mob without downtime). That's ten minutes. The same time it takes to complete a warzone.

 

Why was 600 GCXP in ten minutes for golden mobs unreasonable, but 600 GCXP for a eight to ten minute warzone is alright?

 

I'm opening the box of pandora by pointing this gain out, but it's mathematics. By that definition you'd have to nerf warzones too. Then story. Then operations. Then chapters. And when all is nerfed, something will STILL be the most efficient way possible. You'd have to nerf that AGAIN. A vicious cycle. That's what happens when you apply your reasoning.

 

Warzones have queue times, gold mobs do not. If the CXP gain is too fast for Bioware's liking they will nerf it. Simple.

 

Oh, that's not a big deal. The set bonuses are only favourable over an entire tier of item levels because the instant critical strikes and heal increases are favourable over ten crit. They are the most important factor in anything from veteran to master mode DPS. But don't let that fool you.

 

Favorable =/= needed. If you had everything you wanted in game then progression ends. If you want it, earn it, but do not think that you need set bonuses for anything.

[Swtorevolution]

But if you promote the idea that you can only do anything on the left side, nobody is going to pick the right side. Then you might as well eradicate having a choice because the system is biased towards the left. If people feel they have to pick light to participate, we might as well get rid of the system entirely.

 

 

 

RPGs for the past twenty years have been designed around gaining rewards. From experience points and gold to equipment. The idea that RPG players are "bad" or "obsessed" for wanting something for their time is an idiocy you're promoting to give yourself at least a single argument to stand on.

 

Earning rewards, not having them hand-fed to you, not sacrificing character development (this is an RPG) for them.

[Degan]

 

But I'm pretty sure they will increase this 1 to 10 again next week and people will thank them and forget about how awful is the RNG system in the first place.

 

This is exactly what they are counting on.

[Swtorevolution]

In fact psychologically speaking it is very weird NOT to want rewards for your effort - it means you are denying yourself the "feel good" element of a game, basically making love without the "conclusion"... I hope I don't need to explain why that is not considered OK?

 

The conclusion just means the fun is over.

Edited December 4, 2016 by Swtorevolution

[AlaecusMcFly]

As you say the only reason you found it fun was the rewards. If you truly found it fun the rewards wouldn't matter.

 

But you enjoyed playing those 30 hours right? I mean it would be a bit silly playing a game you don't enjoy for 30 hours simply for gear so you can play more of the game you don't enjoy.

 

Why have a polar system? So people can CHOOSE which side to be on obviously. Again with the reward obsession. This is an RPG. Made by a game developer that makes RPGs. You choose your character's development. Is your reward obsession clashing with your character's development?

 

This argument is predicated on the poor warrant that "there is only one way humans derive true fun, and that's through the appreciation of doing the act itself, not the rewards that act gives."

 

The problem is we have a century of Pyschological researched performed, even before the game Pong was invented, that humans derive immense pleasure from rewards, and will ALWAYS prefer the pleasure a reward gives over the pleasure performing an act in itself gives.

 

swtorevolution would have you believe that there is only one true way to have fun. If you derive fun or pleasure from gaining reward for your efforts, than it's not actually "fun", you just think it is. He's trying to "sell you" on the successes of the Effort Heuristic and Effort Justification-type conditioning, even though many studies show the weakness of their simplistic views.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effort_justification

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effort_heuristic

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expectancy_theory

Edited December 4, 2016 by AlaecusMcFly

[Swtorevolution]

This argument is predicated on the poor warrant that "there is only one way humans derive true fun, and that's through the appreciation of doing the act itself, not the rewards that act gives."

 

The problem is we have a century of Pyschological researched performed, even before the game Pong was invented, that humans derive immense pleasure from rewards, and will ALWAYS prefer the pleasure a reward gives over the pleasure performing an act in itself gives.

 

swtorevolution would have you believe that there is only one true way to have fun. If you derive fun or pleasure from gaining reward for your efforts, than it's not actually "fun", you just think it is. He's trying to "sell you" on the successes of the Effort Heuristic and Effort Justification-type conditioning, even though many studies show the weakness of their simplistic views.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effort_justification

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effort_heuristic

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expectancy_theory

 

If these players are truly enjoying their rewards, why are they here complaining?