Class Changes in KOTET

[DarthEnrique]

RIP Assassins/Shadows, we shall miss you...

[Jimvinny]

9.4% at 30m or 10m? They stated that there would be scaling DR out to the new range. A 9.4% nerf at 10m would kind of suck, yeah.

 

Since when has scream ever worked at 30m?

[stoopicus]

Since when has scream ever worked at 30m?

 

Since 5.0, per the class change notes

[Cox_The_Beast]

Posts are live!

 

Agent / Smuggler - http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9110279

Bounty Hunter / Trooper - http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9110291

Inquisitor / Consular - http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9110285

Warrior / Knight - http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9110281

 

-eric

 

Having read all the OPs in the threads above, and having played all classes and almost all specs at least once, I felt I ought to at least write my impressions in here. Of course, this is all personal opinion. I haven't run the numbers or anything, but I thought of a couple of concepts on different perspective and found a couple of things troubling.

 

In all honesty, I see little that makes me worried in the general changes, but Guard not requiring a stance anymore is just terrible as a decision, IMHO... Already Tanks guarding their allies in PvP make them much harder to take down, but if everyone can guard, that's going to become worse.

Think of the ppl lamenting Skank-tanking... What's proposed is pretty much Skank-tanking 2.0. Doing that without the lack of optimization using the wrong stance for a Discipline imposes right now.

On the other hand, while certainly evening the field of tank-able classes, that would trivialize the need for Tanks in such a place, I fear. With Taunts already working as Taunts regardless of Discipline and Stance, and with the addition of Guards, I honestly see little point in Tanks existing all along on a PvP only perspective, with that change. Why use one, if DPS with Taunts and Guard can do the same while dishing out more damage?

 

Now, on to Guardians/Juggs and Sent/Marauders. I kind of dislike losing the only real channel we have - Force Stasis/Force Shoke still lasts as long as a GCD, so I don't consider it a "proper" channel - but I do see the point. The name still is worse than Master Strike was though.

 

And now, time for Sorc/Sages and Sin/Shadows. This is what troubles the most in terms of class changes.

Hmmm... Sorcs keeping Phase Walk and Assassins losing it... I don't agree with that. While I certainly am NOT an expert as far as Assassin/Shadow goes, I think I can understand at least the very basics of a class.

And unless some really heavy tweaks to mobility are implemented, Assassins/Shadows will have a very tough time come the expansion. No more mobility help in PvE, especially in Operations, and in PvP it'll be easy to simply outrun them, given how everyone now has something to put distance inbetween them and their stalker.

For Sorcs/Sages sure, Phase Walk provides an extra escape that may be helpful. That one time you have both Force Barrier and Force Speed on cooldown, that is... Yeah. I wouldn't call it necessary on a Sorc. But a Sin without it is just painful.

 

Time for Powertechs/Vanguards and Commandos/Mercs. Finally, some survivability is given to those who need it. Talking about Commandos/Mercs, obviously. I always loved the damage they can dish out, but the difficulty they always had surviving when focused made me pick Sorc instead as my main PvP character. Now, with these changes I'm pretty sure they'll at least pick up a fight.

As for the loss of Flamethrower, It's a mixed bag. Sure, on a melee-centric class, an AoE channel felt somewhat weird to use, at times. But still, having a flamethrower in the first place is what makes the class cool. I hope its substitute will at least keep the appearance of a flamethrower.

 

And finally, on to Operative/Scoundrels and Snipers/Gunslingers. I don't really dislike the changes to these classes, TBH, although they kind of trivialize the whole presence of the offhand slot on Snipers... Since they won't use kinves anymore, at that point make them use Generators like Commandos do, it's not like they will display the offhand anyway. It's a trivial complain though, a flavour loss that will affect me, if anyone at all.

Operative/Scoundrel, from what I've seen and experienced don't need more escapes, but having some tied to new utilities certainly makes sense.

The 10m Stun for Snipers/Gunslingers I don't see as a problem. It's 10m, if you get stun you're almost in range to attack anyway, if not already in range.

 

Generally a positive attitude all along, but a couple of things I think create trouble more than anything. I don't know, I'm not convinced this is entirely the right direction. Hopefully the suggestions some more competent ppl than me have given will be at least considered, but I wanted to add my 2cents, for what it's worth.

[Darkside]

9.4% at 30m or 10m? They stated that there would be scaling DR out to the new range. A 9.4% nerf at 10m would kind of suck, yeah.

 

9.4% to the base ability before they make any other changes, and that's just one of the more standout ones. There are plenty more for all classes.

Edited November 8, 2016 by Darkside

[loctavius]

Too late, Eric. I've been with you since Beta. A sub the entire time. Even bought the CE edition. The recent loot changes combined with so many other choices - you are NOT listening to the fan base. As soon as I finish the only class storyline I never bothered to finish, I'm out.

[Darkside]

The removal of Phase Walk from Assassin is crazy, especially as you're keeping it for Sorcerers. :S

 

The 'big' change for me is that guard no longer requires a stance. This is madness for PvP. A lot of matches already end up as near stalemates, and now there's going to be guard everywhere! Please, please say this isn't going live? The better solution would've been to lock guard to the actual tanking disciplines, rather than merely to a stance. Instead you've gone the other way - I know this saying has been overused, but; "Do you even play your game?"

 

Honestly, I'm going to miss the ability to change stances. I can't tell you how much being able to swap stances has saved my butt on my Jugg.

[DarthEnrique]

So no one else is going to say RIP to Assassins/Shadows? Oh well, at least I did. I know what I won't be on come 5.0...

[DanNV]

My only question is, if these are a sample of the changes, what are ALL of the changes?

[Darkside]

So no one else is going to say RIP to Assassins/Shadows? Oh well, at least I did. I know what I won't be on come 5.0...

 

Yeah rip assassins indeed. I can't even talk about it, cause it was one of my favorite classes to play.

[Jagaimee]

So no one else is going to say RIP to Assassins/Shadows? Oh well, at least I did. I know what I won't be on come 5.0...

 

Wait... Phase Walk (and/or Crushing Darkness and Force Lightning*) is SUCH an integral part of Assassin/Shadow play that the entire advanced class is ruined forever? I...don't get it... am I missing something?

 

*Okay, the removal of Force Lightning/Telekinetic Throw from Assassins/Shadows... um, yeah, a bit miffed about that. But is that really something to cry "I can't play this advanced class anymore!!!" over??

[AllisonLightning]

Wait... Phase Walk (and/or Crushing Darkness and Force Lightning*) is SUCH an integral part of Assassin/Shadow play that the entire advanced class is ruined forever? I...don't get it... am I missing something?

 

*Okay, the removal of Force Lightning/Telekinetic Throw from Assassins/Shadows... um, yeah, a bit miffed about that. But is that really something to cry "I can't play this advanced class anymore!!!" over??

 

I was already having difficulty with the AC honestly but a combination made them a unique and interesting playable advanced class and now the only cool, unique thing they can essentially do is wield a double bladed lightsaber. It'd be different I guess, were I not playing it as a DPS class but as a Tank. So I'm taking advantage of double XP, getting a Lightning Sorcerer up to scratch on Harbinger because I've got a grip on that AC discipline finally and I already felt weird doing the story without the sparky fun, but I at least had these extra abilities that are now going bye-bye.

 

The AC was a fun hybrid class but I need a class I want to play. Whatever nerf bat is coming, Sorcerers are at least fun Swiss army knives... although I hardly ever use Phase Walk on them. It's a bit of a useless skill unless I want to troll people in warzones. It was also an ability that let the Assassin/Shadow class get out of the fact that if you're doing solo content and want to suddenly put space between you and what you're fighting without causing a reset or pop all over like their AC name suggests.

[mudmobile]

Oy Vey.

[Scinald]

Those changes were all a big pile of yawn. It will, of course, all depend on the numbers for the rest of abilities. But for them to talk about Sorcs/Sages needing more mobility AND survivability just makes me wonder if they really understand what going on in the game.

 

Anyway, time will tell. Best plan is to stay month-to-month in your sub.

[ivanhedgehog]

My only question is, if these are a sample of the changes, what are ALL of the changes?

 

and why didnt they list them? are they afraid for us to learn?

[Helig]

Concerned about so many classes getting uncapped (unlike Guard\Jugg) singletarget Force/Tech reflect.

[DarthEnrique]

Wait... Phase Walk (and/or Crushing Darkness and Force Lightning*) is SUCH an integral part of Assassin/Shadow play that the entire advanced class is ruined forever? I...don't get it... am I missing something?

 

*Okay, the removal of Force Lightning/Telekinetic Throw from Assassins/Shadows... um, yeah, a bit miffed about that. But is that really something to cry "I can't play this advanced class anymore!!!" over??

 

The whole point of a Sith Inquisitor is that they use lighting that was what interested me in the class and I liked the double-bladed Lightsaber now it's just bleh. Crushing Darkness was the only dot that a tank had and the force lightning becomes Depredating Volts which worries me as if Force lighting is being removed is that move also being removed as it's part of the tank rotation and it was originally Force Lightning. For a hatred Assassin Crushing Darkness becomes Demolish which is also part of their rotation so same issue as tanks. For deception Assassins Crushing Darkness is their only dot.

 

And seeing as Assassins can't self-heal like their jugger tank counterparts stealthing out and phase walking away from the battle to heal was their only option now it's gone.

 

As said here and I have to agree:

I was already having difficulty with the AC honestly but a combination made them a unique and interesting playable advanced class and now the only cool, unique thing they can essentially do is wield a double bladed lightsaber. It'd be different I guess, were I not playing it as a DPS class but as a Tank. So I'm taking advantage of double XP, getting a Lightning Sorcerer up to scratch on Harbinger because I've got a grip on that AC discipline finally and I already felt weird doing the story without the sparky fun, but I at least had these extra abilities that are now going bye-bye.

 

The AC was a fun hybrid class but I need a class I want to play. Whatever nerf bat is coming, Sorcerers are at least fun Swiss army knives... although I hardly ever use Phase Walk on them. It's a bit of a useless skill unless I want to troll people in warzones. It was also an ability that let the Assassin/Shadow class get out of the fact that if you're doing solo content and want to suddenly put space between you and what you're fighting without causing a reset or pop all over like their AC name suggests.

Edited November 8, 2016 by DarthEnrique

[niemi]

Concerned about so many classes getting uncapped (unlike Guard\Jugg) singletarget Force/Tech reflect.

 

Thank you, one of the first common sense posts I have seen in a while..

 

I'm confused about the justification of so many of these radical changes, particularly the over-extensive use of all these reflects. Naturally, we always do the same thing.. "Reserve judgement until we see how everything actually competes in 5.0." But pvp wise some of these just look ridiculously risque..

 

I understand the much needed love for Merc/Mando knowing how I used to lick my chops whenever I'd see one in a reg.. but on paper a lot of these look, dare I say it, pretty darn skewed in some strong nuances.

 

I hate to jump the gun, but I have never understood some of the justification for some of the decisions made in balancing. This looks like a dramatic shift, which to me may not completely be a bad thing, but some of these changes look like a colossal overcompensation in some areas at least in what I'm reading so far...

[T_T_P]

Have you actually looked at Parsely? Yes Hatred is more effective on some bosses due to really clever DoT spread but it's mostly fluffing numbers. Some parses are fudged too due to stealth (but that goes for both disciplines).

 

~ Eudoxia

 

A big flaw with Parsely is that it doesn't show average numbers done only the highest parses and people only post their highest ones. Every spec can fluff it's numbers not just Hatred.

[Uruare]

I actually like most of these changes.

 

How unusual!

[nepochop]

Well all classes have reflect now, i really dont wanna be pvping in 5.0

[Torvai]

Removing Phase Walk is just a slap in the face for all Sin/Shadow players. Especially considering that they get nothing in return for an ability that was originally Sin/Shadow only.

In addition to this, you didn't mention a certain utility that will lead to Sin Tanks, at the very least, to use Sprint as a dcd, and not as a movement ability. So all they are left with is a bugging Phantom Stride. Which can't be used as a movement ability by Deception, since it's part of their rotation, like Force Charge originally was for Anni Maras. You removed this for a reason, remember?

 

And for Ravage/Master Strike: When what we have heard from the PTS is true, in that it hits like a wet noodle(even less damage than its first two hits do now), then you can just do us all a favor and outright remove it from the game. I get that you need to adjust something in order to compensate for the additional fillers the change enables, but this is too much. Why not adjust more than one skill a bit, instead of nerfing Ravage to the ground?

And I hope you considered that Jugg tanks have a passive that gives them a stacking defense buff for Ravage. When Ravage changes to an instant instead of a channel, the uptime of this buff will be even less than it is now. I hope you considered this and adjusted accordingly.

Also, the Extending Ire Utility makes no sense. It's the only utility that takes something away in the whole game. On a class whose utility aren't great to begin with. In addition, giving the lost damage beyond 10m back on the use of force push is simply ridicoulous. Force Push resets the cooldown on Force Charge. Which then means we can close in the gap and don't need a 30m Scream anyway. So either change this utility to simply enabling Scream at 30m and nothing else, or replace it with a utility that actually has any sense.

 

And the question remains where the rest of those changes are? You should have just copy and pasted the changes from Jedipedia. Go take a look, that's how you present something like this. You should be ashamed that dataminers do your job better, faster and more reliable than you, without getting paid for it. Just saying:rolleyes:

[trashy_spartan]

My only question is, if these are a sample of the changes, what are ALL of the changes?

Check Jedipedia website out.

 

A big flaw with Parsely is that it doesn't show average numbers done only the highest parses and people only post their highest ones. Every spec can fluff it's numbers not just Hatred.

Check starparse website out.

 

And the question remains where the rest of those changes are? You should have just copy and pasted the changes from Jedipedia. Go take a look, that's how you present something like this. You should be ashamed that dataminers do your job better, faster and more reliable than you, without getting paid for it. Just saying:rolleyes:

So true and even more true 21 days before release.

Edited November 8, 2016 by trashy_spartan

[Tsillah]

The whole point of a Sith Inquisitor is that they use lighting that was what interested me in the class and I liked the double-bladed Lightsaber now it's just bleh. Crushing Darkness was the only dot that a tank had and the force lightning becomes Depredating Volts which worries me as if Force lighting is being removed is that move also being removed as it's part of the tank rotation and it was originally Force Lightning. For a hatred Assassin Crushing Darkness becomes Demolish which is also part of their rotation so same issue as tanks. For deception Assassins Crushing Darkness is their only dot.

 

Well the Sith Inquisitor no longer exists in 5.0 as the ACs are becoming actual classes. So the Assassin is a class by itself as will be the Sorceror. Clearly they've made a clearer distinction between them very much being melee or ranged. I suspect the specs within their classes will give a bit of variation but with more definition. The question I want to ask though is this: Currently Demolish replaces Crushing Darkness, but they haven't said that Demolish will disappear, did they? It may still exist in 5.0

[Deaconik]

...

• 
  
• Double Strike: Now granted at level 1 as a Shadow exclusive.
  
• Force Technique: Now a passive buff.
  
• Guard: Now available at level 16. No longer requires Combat Technique.
  
• Combat Technique: Removed from Advanced Class. Now granted as Discipline passive in Kinetic Combat.
  
• Phase Walk: Removed from base class. Now Sage exclusive.
  
• Vaulting Slash: New ability for the Infiltration Discipline. High damage single-target skill on a 15s cooldown that is usable from stealth or within 15 seconds of landing a critical hit.
  

...

 

So, Eric, can you tell me what will happen if I create a new Inquisitor right now and level it to level 65 after KotET hits? I always wanted to create some troll Characters(level 65 trooper comes to my mind mostly) but now I don't know if this is any longer possible. I just don't want to buy server slots for something that will fade away.