Why Macros belong in TOR.

[AlrikFassbauer]

Only eSports people buy keyboards & mice capable of performing macros - partially, becauzse these things cost so much - and casual gamner would be at an disadvantage because of that.

 

And saying to an casual gamer he or she should then just buy an equally capable & expwensive gaming mouse would most likely been answered by an *facepalm* because these casual people are aware of the fact that these expensive mice won't help them at all during everyday tasks like homebanking, letter writing and checking e-mails.

[JustinxDuff]

You are either fooling yourself, or fairly new to MMO's.

 

Most of the top pvpers already use macro's, in the form of razor mice and keyboards. One can easily create macro chains and recursive macro's using these devices. And it's been happening from day one.

The only thing adding macro's would do for the game is allow the financially unfortunate casual players to cheaply keep pace, with the moderate-hardcore players.

 

I never said they weren't used. I was implying they shouldn't be used in PvP. Macros are a crutch.

[orryko]

imo they should only allow macros like wow does for targeting purposes or chaining multiple abilities off the gcd together

 

not like rift where you put every ability you have into one macro and mash the button

 

it would be very convenient to have a keybind such as /target (friend's name) dispel

 

i know people will argue that part of the "skill" is how fast you can manually do it, but it's pretty obvious none of those people were ever high rated in wow arena or in this game.

 

and as other people mentioned, those with gaming mice are already doing this. simple QoL change that will make every competitive pvper happy

[Phenixx]

Only eSports people buy keyboards & mice capable of performing macros - partially, becauzse these things cost so much - and casual gamner would be at an disadvantage because of that.

 

And saying to an casual gamer he or she should then just buy an equally capable & expwensive gaming mouse would most likely been answered by an *facepalm* because these casual people are aware of the fact that these expensive mice won't help them at all during everyday tasks like homebanking, letter writing and checking e-mails.

 

Not sure what you are getting at. Maybe I am misunderstanding, but these mice and keyboards are not even close to being expensive. You can get a decent one for $100. And I'll wager most adults with a job drop thousands yearly on their hobby, be it gaming, restoring cars, fishing, you name it. Anyhow, my point was that macro's are/do exits today in swtor.

[Brunner_Venda]

Funny, I bought an officially licensed SWTOR keyboard.

 

It came packaged with macro software.

 

Why the hell is a product they brand and market considered against their own TOS?

 

That's asinine.... That's... Bioware all right.

[Zoom_VI]

Funny, I bought an officially licensed SWTOR keyboard.

 

It came packaged with macro software.

 

Why the hell is a product they brand and market considered against their own TOS?

 

That's asinine.... That's... Bioware all right.

 

Because Razor simply bought the liscense to put a SWTOR skin on their product, what that product does has nothing to do with Bioware as it is not Bioware's product

[madtycoon]

There is a huge misconception in this thread. Not all macros consist of a cast sequence where a player can use multiple abilities with one keybind. Cast sequence macros should be prohibited from SWTOR.

 

The players advocating macros are talking about those used for targeting, using abilities on targets and miscellaneous functions like stopcasting. These types of macros enhance a player's skill level by increasing binds and lowering the gap in between a player's reaction time and their character's action. Macros make gameplay more fluent by allowing players to have more control over the customization of their keybinds.

 

Targeting Party Members

In four man flashpoints, targeting party members 1-3 and target self match up with the default party frames. However, when a player uses the ops frames, the party members won't always match up with the appropriate keybinds. This is a problem when it comes to arenas, because there isn't an option to use the default party frames. It is unnecessarily difficult to use party 1-3 targeting binds in PvP, because a player has to memorize which bind goes to which player before the match begins.

 

Macros solve this problem. They allow a player to individually bind their teammates. Why more players don't complain about this is surprising (especially healers and tanks).

 

/target playername

 

Using Abilities off Focus

SWTOR's focus target is underdeveloped. Players cannot use shift, ctrl and alt keys as modifiers when interacting with the focus frame without remapping their keyboard. This makes absolutely no sense considering those modifiers are 100% more comfortable to anyone who learned how to type on a qwerty keyboard. Macros fix this problem by allowing players to separately bind abilities to interact with the focus frame.

 

/cast ability@focus

 

Macros also allow other customization for using the focus frame. For example, when a player sets someone to focus, their target is immediately dropped. This is yet another inconvenience for players, but an access to targeting macros would solve this problem.

 

/focus

/target@focus

 

Using Abilities on Party Members

When a player uses an ability on one of their teammates, that player has to target that teammate and then use that ability (2 keystrokes). Permitting players to macro abilities to teammates would increase a player's potential speed by allowing them to trade keystrokes for more keybinds. This essentially increases skill cap, because for a player to cleanse three teammates and themselves as fast as possible it requires an extra four binds.

 

/cast ability@playername

 

Arena 1-4 Support

Macros are more important now that arenas have been introduced. Arena target functions for enemy players based on their scoreboard location (or preferably adding actual arena enemy frames) would give players capable of handling more keybinds the freedom to increase their gameplay. This would also help the overall targeting system which has always been very weak.

 

/target arena1

 

Macros would also allow players to quickly set and rotate their focus instead of wasting time tabbing through targets.

 

/focus arena1

 

Finally for highly skilled players, arena 1-4 macros open up an almost endless amount of binds for using abilities off of arena targets. Players could bind actions like taunt, interrupts and crowd control abilities to arena targets. This makes using these abilities much faster without having to switch targets or focus. Such macros really enhance those players that have the awareness to manage multiple targets.

 

/cast ability@arena1

 

Macros help separate skill level. They encourage players with high awareness, a large keybind range and a fast reaction time. They need to be implemented.

[DarthBloodloss]

Many people think the Razor products promote something which is banned, but that's not true. The Devs have stated on multiple occasions that 1-click macros are legal. The only type of macro that is not legal is one that performs (not just attempts, but actually triggers) multiple action with only 1 button press.

 

Rough Example of Legal Macro: (for attack priority for a Marauder)

1) Macro tries to use an Excecute ability

2) waits .05 seconds

3) Macro tries to use Vicious Slash (or any high cost attack)

4) waits .05 seconds

5) Macro tries to use Rage Builder (the one with cooldown)

6) waits .05 seconds

7) Macro uses non-CD Rage Builder

 

You can map this to a mouse key and when you click it once, only 1 attack will be triggered. The rest will fail due to the attack being on CD, or because another attack is already going.

 

Illegal Macro:

1) Macro uses a rage builder attack

2) Macro waits 1.5 seconds

3) Macro uses another attack

 

This would results in 2 attacks for just 1 mouse click.

[Vkejai]

I would just like to add my support for NO MACROING in this game. I too played WoW and really game skills are secondary there, allowing those who know the way to macro have a distinct advantage. This in my eyes is not giving an insight into the players skill level only how good they are at macroing etc.

 

I used to 5 Box for a while so I had to use macros , also played Rift which has a very good macro system , but its nice toactually play a game and not worry about macroing for advantage over another player. As it is its a level playing field which also helps new players to the game not stress out because they are forced to macro just to keep on a level playing field.

 

Just my opion ofc.

[jamoup]

I would love macros... for chat. I used to play CoH (RIP) and I could target an enemy, then press my macro which would announce to my group to please kill that guy first. A few simple chat macros would be very nice to have. Not necessary for sure, typing isn't that hard and I use Vent . But still. I would like it.

[Isolde]

<placard>No Macros Please!</placard>

[JustinxDuff]

Many people think the Razor products promote something which is banned, but that's not true. The Devs have stated on multiple occasions that 1-click macros are legal. The only type of macro that is not legal is one that performs (not just attempts, but actually triggers) multiple action with only 1 button press.

 

Rough Example of Legal Macro: (for attack priority for a Marauder)

1) Macro tries to use an Excecute ability

2) waits .05 seconds

3) Macro tries to use Vicious Slash (or any high cost attack)

4) waits .05 seconds

5) Macro tries to use Rage Builder (the one with cooldown)

6) waits .05 seconds

7) Macro uses non-CD Rage Builder

 

You can map this to a mouse key and when you click it once, only 1 attack will be triggered. The rest will fail due to the attack being on CD, or because another attack is already going.

 

Illegal Macro:

1) Macro uses a rage builder attack

2) Macro waits 1.5 seconds

3) Macro uses another attack

 

This would results in 2 attacks for just 1 mouse click.

 

Technically your first is illegal too because you have a total wait time of 1.5s so that macro would use the first and last ability with 1 keypress.

[Raansu]

lol @ bringing back a thread from two years ago and lol @ bads that still want them. Macros are for terrible players, end of story.

[DarthBloodloss]

Technically your first is illegal too because you have a total wait time of 1.5s so that macro would use the first and last ability with 1 keypress.

I believe you misread the decimal. Its .05 not 0.5. The total delay is 0.15 seconds

Edited October 31, 2013 by DarthBloodloss

[Ren_simp]

lol @ bringing back a thread from two years ago and lol @ bads that still want them. Macros are for terrible players, end of story.

 

Why are they for terrible players? I find this hard to understand

Every action still requires a key press I think most people against them(Macros) really have never used them or fully

Understand how they work there's nothing to fear.

Even If you set up a casting sequence you still need to press a key for each action whether it's the same key or multiple keys it doesn't matter.

 

A good macro editor would be a good addition to this game

But before that I would like to see a better in game combat log and fly text with the ability to edit font type/size and colour and position on the screen.

Edited October 31, 2013 by Ren_simp

[Zunayson]

cast sequences are something completely different (though the same name) if you actually read the OP (or the TLDR....) he just wants focus target support.

 

which now that I think about it might help PUGS... instead of saying "everyone attack dumbnamexx" or "focus down the jugg now now now" itll be like macro set target of my focus target.... now attack and apply my leet skillz

 

we might as well change MMOs to be skilless gear grinds at this point. If you need all these functionalities for targeting, where's the skill? Might as well be able to talk into a microphone and have the game auto target everyone for you, leaving you to grind your gear, put in your spec that you google'd, and perform a rotation that is very hard on the reflexes. Quite frankly, with so many macros, MMOs are hardly a competition anymore.

 

Communication is part of MMOs. If we can auto-communicate and auto-cast, and auto-target, we might as well be auto-controlled by scripts.

 

Then again, I'm the FPS kind of guy who's against things like range indicators, auto-face, tab-targeting (mostly because its a bad RNG algorithm).

 

Why are they for terrible players? I find this hard to understand

Every action still requires a key press I think most people against them(Macros) really have never used them or fully

Understand how they work there's nothing to fear.

Even If you set up a casting sequence you still need to press a key for each action whether it's the same key or multiple keys it doesn't matter.

 

A good macro editor would be a good addition to this game

But before that I would like to see a better in game combat log and fly text with the ability to edit font type/size and colour and position on the screen.

 

I'm pretty ignorant as to what you guys mean by your non-cast sequence macros; OP talks about mouse-over macros, and all I can think of are macros that automatically target someone when you mouse over them, not when you click them.

 

I'm simply against any and all forms of automation.

 

In regards to priority macros - you're programming a priority system that you yourself do not have to think about when it is being executed = automation. A long time ago in a topic long long deleted, someone posted a link to a script that used a pixel reader to auto-play a merc healer via a priority system. The difference between this and a priority macro is literally nothing but the amount of automation - albeit still automation nonetheless.

 

Other macros I hear about seem to be focus modifiers. In other words, easily having two targets at once. See the first paragraph of my post for that - ease of targeting just takes away the only skill-based aspect to this game. That's almost like having a button to auto-los using fancy walking around a pillar - automation of reflex-based button pressing, and defeats the entire purpose of playing this game. If kiting and other forms of skill/reflex based game go away, you are left with nothing but static classes with nonperfect balance, tried to be made dynamic and balanced via RNG, and an archaic system where the one who's played longer (not smarter or better) wins; hardly competitive. PvE seems like the lazy macro type boring gameplay, but leave it out of PvP kthx.

Edited November 1, 2013 by Zunayson

[Raansu]

Why are they for terrible players? I find this hard to understand

Every action still requires a key press I think most people against them(Macros) really have never used them or fully

Understand how they work there's nothing to fear.

Even If you set up a casting sequence you still need to press a key for each action whether it's the same key or multiple keys it doesn't matter.

 

A good macro editor would be a good addition to this game

But before that I would like to see a better in game combat log and fly text with the ability to edit font type/size and colour and position on the screen.

 

I understand exactly how they work. They are for scrubs and lazy people. Hey look guys, I can do multiple actions with the press of one button, I'm so pro.

 

It's no different than a fighting game player macroing a difficult combo to a single button and being able to pull it off 100% of the time. There is no skill involved. Macros are brain dead and if you need them to "improve" your game then you are bad.

[Zunayson]

I understand exactly how they work. They are for scrubs and lazy people. Hey look guys, I can do multiple actions with the press of one button, I'm so pro.

 

It's no different than a fighting game player macroing a difficult combo to a single button and being able to pull it off 100% of the time. There is no skill involved. Macros are brain dead and if you need them to "improve" your game then you are bad.

 

While those macros exist and are used in some games, they're not advocating to bring macros to auto-complete combos.

 

They're talking about adding in things comparable to auto-face in fighting games, or something like the C-stick for super smash brothers (not ease of a combo per se, but ease of something that should in its raw form be much more difficult on the reflexes). Or perhaps something that automatically tells them when they get in range to do a certain attack, so they don't need the experience to figure it out for themselves. They say its okay under the guise of convenience e.i. yes because they're lazy.

 

And yes I am in wholehearted agreement with you - macros are for lazy PvE folk

 

Finally for highly skilled players, arena 1-4 macros open up an almost endless amount of binds for using abilities off of arena targets. Players could bind actions like taunt, interrupts and crowd control abilities to arena targets. This makes using these abilities much faster without having to switch targets or focus. Such macros really enhance those players that have the awareness to manage multiple targets.

 

I decided to read your post and it was at this point I realized what you meant by "macros can enhance skilled players."

 

Uhm, no, but this rebuttal stems from my own preconceived definition of skill vs strategy, something you may not agree with, making this response moot. Strategy is my ability to know what to do, and skill is my ability to do it. A competition (any competition) has a set of skills it tests. Rotations, skill trees, gear planning, etc. are done pre-fighting and not mid-fighting, so they are purely strategy. In other words, they take no executional skills whatsoever.

 

While a good player may very well have the knowledge that they need to attack the healer AND taunt the DPS (quite a simple concept, really), they really need the skill to do this. They need to physically coordinate themselves to tab target off quick enough, be quick on the eyes to notice when it lands on the target they want, and then hit their button, and then recycle through the targets until they get their actual target. This can be done in less than half a second - I can, at least.

 

This takes experience and true skill - I don't want some newcomer doing it the same way because you have some crap macros. How can this be justifiably different than the gear argument ("I don't want some newcomer beating me after I have obtained all this gear...") - one is a purely statistical advantage with no basis on skill, experience, or strategy (gear); the other is a skill obtained from experience that inherently contributes to the win - I'm not entitled to win because of skill, but I win because it should be about skill.

Edited November 1, 2013 by Zunayson

[RodneyMcNeely]

I only want a single, spammable text macro that reads:

 

"Please kill the target with the floating symbol over its head".

Edited November 1, 2013 by RodneyMcNeely

[madtycoon]

I decided to read your post and it was at this point I realized what you meant by "macros can enhance skilled players."

 

Uhm, no, but this rebuttal stems from my own preconceived definition of skill vs strategy, something you may not agree with, making this response moot. Strategy is my ability to know what to do, and skill is my ability to do it. A competition (any competition) has a set of skills it tests. Rotations, skill trees, gear planning, etc. are done pre-fighting and not mid-fighting, so they are purely strategy. In other words, they take no executional skills whatsoever.

 

Execution skill does not diminish with macros. As you said we define skill differently. I see skill divided into character control, knowledge of the game, awareness, reaction time, decision making and communication. You separate character control as skill and the other categories as strategy? Targeting macros reallocate character control skill. They make players more efficient by trading sloppy keystrokes for more effective keybinds.

 

While a good player may very well have the knowledge that they need to attack the healer AND taunt the DPS (quite a simple concept, really), they really need the skill to do this. They need to physically coordinate themselves to tab target off quick enough, be quick on the eyes to notice when it lands on the target they want, and then hit their button, and then recycle through the targets until they get their actual target. This can be done in less than half a second - I can, at least.

 

Arena 1-4 macros make the targeting faster in this scenario. The player capable of keybinding taunt arena 1-4 (four additional binds) could taunt a DPS without switching targets. That half a second of wasted time tabbing through targets would become null as long as the player could handle the additional keybinds.

 

Trading speed for inefficiency in this scenario is not a skill drop. If this was the case, then you could argue clicking requires more skill than keybinding. Clickers are incredibly inefficient. This is not the case. Keybinding requires more skill than clicking. The amount of keybinds a player can use is a large factor in their overall execution skill.

 

This takes experience and true skill - I don't want some newcomer doing it the same way because you have some crap macros. How can this be justifiably different than the gear argument ("I don't want some newcomer beating me after I have obtained all this gear...") - one is a purely statistical advantage with no basis on skill, experience, or strategy (gear); the other is a skill obtained from experience that inherently contributes to the win - I'm not entitled to win because of skill, but I win because it should be about skill.

 

Poor gameplay lessens the gap between low skilled players and those who are trying to become skill capped. Back to your scenario. Macros aid that player who is looking to taunt targets he is not attacking as opposed to the player who is just attacking. I would rather cater to a player who is trying to off taunt in that situation, newcomer or not.

Edited November 1, 2013 by madtycoon

[Exothermix]

I'm pretty ignorant as to what you guys mean by your non-cast sequence macros; OP talks about mouse-over macros, and all I can think of are macros that automatically target someone when you mouse over them, not when you click them.

 

what they are talking about here, at least to my understanding, is that it is a form of targeting, so rather than hovering your mouse over a player and having to click them to select them as your target before then using the heal cast, whenever your mouse is hovering over the toon or e.g. their name in the menu bar they are the one any cast will be applied to.

 

I don;t see a problem with this personally - just removed the requirement to click the taget each time, allowing you to switch targets marginally faster. Doesn't really remove any "skill" aspect of the game, as nothing is automated, and you still have choose the appropriate cast etc.

 

It's not even a 'macro' it is just a form of targeting without use of mouse click.

[Thavious]

what they are talking about here, at least to my understanding, is that it is a form of targeting, so rather than hovering your mouse over a player and having to click them to select them as your target before then using the heal cast, whenever your mouse is hovering over the toon or e.g. their name in the menu bar they are the one any cast will be applied to.

 

I don;t see a problem with this personally - just removed the requirement to click the taget each time, allowing you to switch targets marginally faster. Doesn't really remove any "skill" aspect of the game, as nothing is automated, and you still have choose the appropriate cast etc.

 

It's not even a 'macro' it is just a form of targeting without use of mouse click.

 

Actually no, it is somewhat of a macro because your heals go to the mouse over friendly player, but your attacks are still focused on your targeted enemy. Basically it is automating whether you are targeting a friendly or enemy player and changing the type of skill (attack or heal) automatically.

[sithBracer]

Actually no, it is somewhat of a macro because your heals go to the mouse over friendly player, but your attacks are still focused on your targeted enemy. Basically it is automating whether you are targeting a friendly or enemy player and changing the type of skill (attack or heal) automatically.

 

How is that different from focus target (alt+f)? I can keep any target focused and change my main target to something else.

 

Anyway this ability (macro, w/e) would honestly have very little affect on heals in pvp-especially group ranked where the healer already knows everyone and what they look like. It would be more beneficial for a tank I think so he can have easy targets to switch guard to and still maintain his enemy targets to taunt.

[orryko]

i'll say it again. anyone against macros was low rated in wow and is low rated in this game

 

prove otherwise or stop posting

 

no one wants cast sequence macros

 

targeting and mouseover are perfectly acceptable because your brain is reacting and making the decision to press the keybind instead of manually clicking

 

all you pvers and clickers, and low rated "pvpers" need to stop commenting on pvp

[Raansu]

i'll say it again. anyone against macros was low rated in wow and is low rated in this game

 

prove otherwise or stop posting

 

no one wants cast sequence macros

 

targeting and mouseover are perfectly acceptable because your brain is reacting and making the decision to press the keybind instead of manually clicking

 

all you pvers and clickers, and low rated "pvpers" need to stop commenting on pvp

 

The game already allows you to keybind through your party. Why do you need a macro?

 

Fact is, people only want macros so they can do multiple things with one button. There is no skill involved with macros, plain and simple.

 

Case in point, back in the day in WoW I played rogue and had a macro that would do my full opener setup from stealth then would swap my main hand from a dagger to a sword all with the press of one button. It was the most idiotic thing ever and I abused the crap out of it. I could do a full opener with one button. Hell, back in 5.1 or 5.2 I forget which, there was two one shot macros for rogues when they got buffed. The macro literally fired off 10 abilities with one button.

 

Sorry but macros are stupid.

Edited November 1, 2013 by Raansu