Post Nerf: Are Your Things Selling?

[jimbomcbob]

Agreed, I also don't buy from the GTN anymore. Slicing nerf has killed my income so I am also about to role alts for the other crew skills. Edited December 28, 2011 by jimbomcbob

[MPJester]

Also, no one has mentioned this yet, but an easy way to farm money in game, while not only helping to stimulate the ingame economy, it also makes credit farmers useless. Why shell out real money when in a few days I can afford everything I need to? Oh, that switches to a few weeks/months? Well, suddenly those credits for dollars seems a lot more viable.

 

Bioware overreacted, the economy wasn't spiraling out of control, it was flourishing and people were spending. a much better fix to this would have been to limit it to 1 toon per server just to stop those that made 8 toons all slicing which is what supposedly caused this massive and complete nerf.

 

I was using my slicing credits to help my friends start their toons on my server. Here is a link bioware probably hadn't made, but soon will. My personal wealth enables me to help my noob friends which encourages them to play more than their free month which makes bioware more of the money that actually matters. Now I can't afford to do that. Anyone guess what happens next?

Edited December 28, 2011 by MPJester

[Jjix]

Edited for TLDR version.

 

We can draw some parallels to real life with the recent Slicing nerf. Lets take a look...

 

In the USA we have the Federal Reserve which controls the amount of currency in circulation (credit, different than in-game credits) usually through the control of interest rates, however there is also the tool known as Quantitative Easing (QE) which injects currency directly into circulation. In SWTOR we have BioWare who controls the flow of currency.

 

With the recent Slicing nerf BioWare has created a "credit crunch", meaning money flows much slower than it did before. In other words we've entered a bit of a recession (comparatively speaking) to what it was at release. When those who have money no longer have a steady source of income as they once did, they are less likely to purchase goods and services, which locks the wealth in place rather than letting it flow in the market (in this case, to other players).

 

In real life when this happens, according to Keynesian economics (of which I am no expert), the Government usually runs a deficit - that is spending more than it takes in, in an effort to spur the economy. When this fails, money is forcibly injected via QE from the Fed. BioWare has no intentions of dropping a money bomb in game, so now we get to see how this bit of economics plays out in the long term, as the only source of steady income are quests and vendor trash, and it takes a very long time (compared to pre-nerf Slicing) to accumulate wealth in this manner.

 

So again, when people make less money, they spend less money.

 

To the person who says "do people really upgrade every couple of levels?" the answer is yes - when we could afford it. Did we have to? No not at all, but we enjoy having the "best gear possible" and it just so happened this gear was purchased from other players, thus spreading the wealth overall. Now that a major source of revenue has been cut off, people are hoarding their credits for a rainy day. We've seen examples of this in real life after the Financial Crisis of 2008 (and still we see its effects today).

 

Personally I think as it was pre-nerf, BioWare had a great option for a unique economy of wealth spread evenly among many people, and now we will see wealth consolidated into the hands of the few (hardcore).

 

Oh, and this bothers me - people saying "slicing causes inflation!" - please learn what inflation is, because you're only half right. When people think inflation they think of increased prices, having to pay higher for the same goods which previously cost less. However what this is is actually the effect of having more money in circulation than goods and services which are in demand. If there are 50 widgets for sale and there is $1000 in circulation, the price of widgets will be about $20/widget. Assuming the same demand exists and all of a sudden there is an injection of another $1000 into circulation, suddenly the price of widgets increases to $40/widget. This is what most people consider "inflation". Let us assume that with this $1000 injection into circulation there was also more demand for widgets, as we can "assume" more people had more money to spend from this QE, then the price of widgets stays at $20/widget regardless of an increase in money supply.

 

This is what would have happened had BioWare not nerfed Slicing into oblivion. As Slicers continued to purchase raw goods and crafted goods on the AH the wealth would be distributed to non-Slicers, who could then turn around and use the same money to purchase items that they need from other crafters, so on and so forth. No "inflation" would have occurred because supply was lower than demand on many goods (I was paying 5k/blue grade 2 metals for my cybertech), therefore people could charge a higher price for their goods sold and make a hefty profit.

 

Now there is no more demand yet supplies will still increase (its not like people will stop mission questing) leading to deflation of the value of currency, as what could have previously been sold for 5000 credits may not only be sold for 2500 credits, perhaps leading to a situation where people are forced to sell their goods for less than the price it took to gather them simply because the loss on the AH is not as big as the loss from selling to a vendor.

 

So, my nerf Slicing-whining friends, if you wonder why no one buys your goods on the AH you need only look in the mirror.

 

And as a caveat, I know my examples are not perfect, but they paint a well enough picture for people to understand the economics of the game.

 

TLDR version -

More credits in circulation + high demand + low supply = excellent money from selling goods on AH

 

Less credits in circulation + low demand + high supply = poor money from selling goods on AH

 

This is a truly excellent post, thank you.

[Gformutorila]

Why buy and sell stuf on GTN/AH anyway? The gear you get from just questing and intances are better then the craftable anyway. So what do you need to buy?

[ripster]

Also, no one has mentioned this yet, but an easy way to farm money in game, while not only helping to stimulate the ingame economy, it also makes credit farmers useless. Why shell out real money when in a few days I can afford everything I need to? Oh, that switches to a few weeks/months? Well, suddenly those credits for dollars seems a lot more viable.

And when the pre-Nerf slicing ruined the economy in a month and drove prices through the roof and the credit farmers had their army of alts slicing 24/7 then people would be using the same excuse to buy credits.

 

Bioware overreacted, the economy wasn't spiraling out of control, it was flourishing and people were spending. a much better fix to this would have been to limit it to 1 toon per server just to stop those that made 8 toons all slicing which is what supposedly caused this massive and complete nerf.

Maybe there is some tweaking that can still or will be done, but I think something had to be done short term that was much more drastic. I think there was more potential damage with a flood of credits than a drought.

 

I was using my slicing credits to help my friends start their toons on my server. Here is a link bioware probably hadn't made, but soon will. My personal wealth enables me to help my noob friends which encourages them to play more than their free month which makes bioware more of the money that actually matters. Now I can't afford to do that. Anyone guess what happens next?

It is great when a level 50 or some appropriately higher level character can help new players at low levels, but when a new player at level 20 or so can fund several other players from the beginning, something is broken. If the problem really is a lack of credits, the BW needs to address that. It should not be the players role to print money.

[Aprotosis]

Wow, there are a lot of people with an over-inflated sense of entitlement. Point is, Slicers were never meant to make that much cred in the first place. All these things you say you can no longer lackidasically afford (bay 3, speeder 2, etc) are not meant to be bought easily. These are effectively grind awards.

 

Post-adjustment my items are still selling. I simply lowered their prices. If anything, that has caused them to sell faster. I can't measure it well because for the first time I have sold everything and currently have nothing to post tonight until I generate some more mats. If you want to continue to sell, then you need to provide value. The auto-value multiplier in the Trade Net is insane when it comes to blue and purple anyways.

[Deamian]

Just FYI if you are new to crafting in an mmo, the markets don't really explode etc until the Alt revolution starts First toon = questing and getting items with a few purchases. Second character = me spending all my first characters money gearing up as I level to make it faster.

[MPJester]

Wow, there are a lot of people with an over-inflated sense of entitlement. Point is, Slicers were never meant to make that much cred in the first place. All these things you say you can no longer lackidasically afford (bay 3, speeder 2, etc) are not meant to be bought easily. These are effectively grind awards.

 

Post-adjustment my items are still selling. I simply lowered their prices. If anything, that has caused them to sell faster. I can't measure it well because for the first time I have sold everything and currently have nothing to post tonight until I generate some more mats. If you want to continue to sell, then you need to provide value. The auto-value multiplier in the Trade Net is insane when it comes to blue and purple anyways.

 

I guess this is where we differ. I play TOR to not grind all day long. I could play WoW or any Korean MMO for that. I got my speeder and was starting to buy things off of the GTN. I won't now. Every level I'd lost 30% of my credits, and only with slicing was I making that back. So I guess leveling skills is also a grind reward.

 

Honestly, if you guys cannot see that having money flowing into an economy is better than not having money flowing into an economy, I cannot help you. Capitalism works, and the markets adjust themselves. The rich spend money on the working class (crafters) which enables them to buy those things they need. No rich, crafters fall from middle class to lower class, which stifles crafting, which slows the economy more.

[Manananggal]

I was cybertech, slicing, Underworld trading. I was at 400 slicing. I dropped slicing yesterday for scavenging. Only took me a few hours to grind it up to my lvl( 21).

 

 

I was at 100k credits. After lvling underworld trading for the day I was down 20k but I sold various mods and ship parts and left over scavenging mats. Made 30k back. So for me anyway the nerf which forced me to drop slicing wasn't that bad. Ya just need to adapt to what's current.

[Toggles]

Wow, there are a lot of people with an over-inflated sense of entitlement. Point is, Slicers were never meant to make that much cred in the first place. All these things you say you can no longer lackidasically afford (bay 3, speeder 2, etc) are not meant to be bought easily. These are effectively grind awards.

 

Nice opinion your passing off as fact you have there.

 

Funny how you mention "over-inflated sense of entitlement". Apparently it can only apply to the slicer crowd? lol This is why we can't have nice things.

 

 

Protip: market is dead now

 

You see, I was the everything man. I leveled, I sliced, I crafted, I bought and sold on GTN... much like most of the other slicers. IDK why people keep acting like and falsely painting slicers as wanna be RMT or something.

 

Anywho, despite my 'evil' slicing, I would buy the best gear I could on the GTN for my characters that I'm leveling, obviously if I couldn't craft better items. I'd also craft and post items on GTN along with the random drops I didn't need while leveling. I'd buy whatever schematics I could find, whether or not I 'needed' them. Economics were thriving.

 

Now... not so much. Nothing is selling anymore, crafted or drops. I'm refusing to dip too far into my bankroll that I made as I'll need to sink it all into crafts now. I can't afford to 'waste' money on schematics that I don't 'need' to use anymore. I've never had so many items returned to me from the GTN as I have had today.

 

Everything is worst off and only the foolish can't see this. Of course we shouldn't be surprised though, it's the same thing that's been happening irl, just with different reasons and specifics. At least 'credits' are make believe.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Toggles

[MegusAlexandrus]

the credit grind is the ONLY aspect of this game i currently don't like. before the slicing nerf it was excellent i loved playing now its kinda meh. i don't understand why they want us to be so friggen broke while leveling... it is retarded.

 

Same plus i ran alot of pvp were a loss with pugs was almost as good as a win that nerf and slicing nerf the game is now Bla could take it or leave it, its just meh

[ripster]

Honestly, if you guys cannot see that having money flowing into an economy is better than not having money flowing into an economy, I cannot help you. Capitalism works, and the markets adjust themselves. The rich spend money on the working class (crafters) which enables them to buy those things they need. No rich, crafters fall from middle class to lower class, which stifles crafting, which slows the economy more.

You seem to think the tap has been turned off. Slicing still makes money for zero work though just not as fast. What I don't get is that with the flood of credits you expect to be earning from the early levels, is why even have credits or even crafting for that matter? Why put in a system where some people choose to work to supply good for others who did nothing to earn the credits used in exchange for the goods, and what are crafters going to use those credits for? Why doesn't everyone just take slicing?

[MPJester]

You seem to think the tap has been turned off. Slicing still makes money for zero work though just not as fast. What I don't get is that with the flood of credits you expect to be earning from the early levels, is why even have credits or even crafting for that matter? Why put in a system where some people choose to work to supply good for others who did nothing to earn the credits used in exchange for the goods, and what are crafters going to use those credits for? Why doesn't everyone just take slicing?

 

I can only speak for myself. I used slicing for credits while leveling, since leveling itself didn't keep me going. So while I leveled my cybertech, I had to buy my UT mats from the GTN. Which, gasp, made people who leveled UT money! And when I eventually switched out of it, to craft items which end game ALWAYS make more, everyone would have won! Now no one wins. Yay!

 

Being rich isn't evil. Being rich is what makes those that don't take slicing able to make money. Just like in America today, people punish the rich and then wonder why we are in an 8 year recession.

[inseeisyou]

I used to spend quite a bit on scaveging materials as well as crafted items.

 

With the slicing nerf I have just stopped going to the trade at all, need to save everything for speeders, repairs and skills. Droping slicing and I will just scavenge what I need myself.

 

The economy is skyrocketing!!!

 

lololol... :/

Edited December 28, 2011 by inseeisyou

[LanceUpercutt]

I used to spend quite a bit on scaveging materials as well as crafted items.

 

With the slicing nerf I have just stopped going to the trade at all, need to save everything for speeders, repairs and skills. Droping slicing and I will just scavenge what I need myself.

 

The economy is skyrocketing!!!

 

lololol... :/

 

this, havent been to the gtn since, just a lot more important things to save up for then anything you can buy on there

Edited December 28, 2011 by LanceUpercutt

[Anzel]

Since Slicing got nerfed (my way yo make money without crafting) I have refused to purchase anything at all on GTN or venders. I save those precious credits for the cost of Living. You know Repair, Abilities, Lv 50 Speeder (310K), Bay #3 (400K), Mod removal, ect. The pre-patch Slicing was perfect. I could make money (lots if I put in the time) and buy what I needed on the GTN. This would be fueling the economy, another player, and helping out myself. Overall a win-win. Now it is lose-lose. Good job those who QQ.

 

^^^THIS^^^

 

I'm not buying anything now from the GTN. I'm saving my credits now for all of the massive credit sinks in the game. Anything else I need will be bought with commendations.

[ripster]

Being rich isn't evil. Being rich is what makes those that don't take slicing able to make money. Just like in America today, people punish the rich and then wonder why we are in an 8 year recession.

If you want to bring the RL into this, then having slicing at the rate it was is like letting anyone print money. So again, why would anyone take up crafting when they can just create all the credits they want? I had Slicing, I enjoyed the benefits of it greatly, but I could still see how bad it was for the game. Once an MMO economy gets ruined by a flood of credits it can be impossible to recover.

[btcorrad]

I can only speak for myself. I used slicing for credits while leveling, since leveling itself didn't keep me going. So while I leveled my cybertech, I had to buy my UT mats from the GTN. Which, gasp, made people who leveled UT money! And when I eventually switched out of it, to craft items which end game ALWAYS make more, everyone would have won! Now no one wins. Yay!

 

Being rich isn't evil. Being rich is what makes those that don't take slicing able to make money. Just like in America today, people punish the rich and then wonder why we are in an 8 year recession.

 

 

QFT

 

A very appropriate parallel. I love hearing people cry about the 'rich' (who they usually see as anyone who makes 10% or more income than them). In America such threats brought with taxation continuously push manufacturing, construction, engineering, and service industries to other countries, taking jobs with them, and extending the recession.

 

In MMOs, that 'other country' means other MMOs.

 

I totally agree that slicing needed an adjustment. But it needed about 50% of the adjustment it got. Way to push more grinding on to all players regardless of their choice of crew skills.

Edited December 28, 2011 by btcorrad

[inseeisyou]

If you want to bring the RL into this, then having slicing at the rate it was is like letting anyone print money. So again, why would anyone take up crafting when they can just create all the credits they want? I had Slicing, I enjoyed the benefits of it greatly, but I could still see how bad it was for the game. Once an MMO economy gets ruined by a flood of credits it can be impossible to recover.

 

So sending off a companion with credits to pursue a mission which returns more credits than he began with is like printing money?

 

Where in the world in RL could I give someone some money and let them work with it and return it to me with more than I started with?

 

What could I possibly call that?

 

Maybe... an investment? Maybe we could call that person... an investment broker?

 

lol, obvious fail is obvious fail...

[JCShooter]

QFT

 

A very appropriate parallel. I love hearing people cry about the 'rich' (who they usually see as anyone who makes 10% or more income than them). In America such threats brought with taxation continuously push manufacturing, construction, engineering, and service industries to other countries, taking jobs with them, and extending the recession.

 

In MMOs, that 'other country' means other MMOs.

 

I totally agree that slicing needed an adjustment. But it needed about 50% of the adjustment it got. Way to push more grinding on to all players regardless of their choice of crew skills.

 

 

Lol I like how you people see wealth as something you deserve by some divine right.

 

It's very funny to see rich (or "I'll be rich one day") people think that the wealth they have was justifiably EARNED by them, as if "without having to take care of all the poor people" they'd be even richer. As if when they were born, they were destined to earn a certain amount and the changes coming along during their life are cutting in on those profits. Way to miss what money actually means, what it stands for and most importantly, where it comes from. And way to try and link the real life thousands years of brainwashing/trading to an MMO.

 

"In America such threats brought with taxation continuously push manufacturing, construction, engineering, and service industries to other countries, taking jobs with them, and extending the recession." Sure, it's the workers who asked for more money first, which left the "boss" no other choice but to fire all his workers and move his production overseas. And now those same workers are asking for help. The company was running fine, but those damn workers ruined it by forcing the boss to take action, and once one unit got produced cheaper overseas, doing it locally is just cutting into your own profits.

 

What do you expect the boss to do? Help out those workers that ruined his company by forcing him to move his stuff overseas? I don't think so, they don't deserve it, scum.

 

"You don't follow the standards I specifically make for you, (but clearly don't follow myself because I'm way too wealthy to be concerned about my house, my healthcare or pension), so it's your fault for it not working.. know what.. give me 1.2 trillion and maybe I'll make something better for you, which I again won't follow myself of course, because my family has it's own personal 150 million insurance pot".

[MPJester]

Lol I like how you people see wealth as something you deserve by some divine right.

 

It's very funny to see rich (or "I'll be rich one day") people think that the wealth they have was justifiably EARNED by them, as if "without having to take care of all the poor people" they'd be even richer. As if when they were born, they were destined to earn a certain amount and the changes coming along during their life are cutting in on those profits. Way to miss what money actually means, what it stands for and most importantly, where it comes from. And way to try and link the real life thousands years of brainwashing/trading to an MMO.

 

"In America such threats brought with taxation continuously push manufacturing, construction, engineering, and service industries to other countries, taking jobs with them, and extending the recession." Sure, it's the workers who asked for more money first, which left the "boss" no other choice but to fire all his workers and move his production overseas. And now those same workers are asking for help. The company was running fine, but those damn workers ruined it by forcing the boss to take action, and once one unit got produced cheaper overseas, doing it locally is just cutting into your own profits.

 

What do you expect the boss to do? Help out those workers that ruined his company by forcing him to move his stuff overseas? I don't think so, they don't deserve it, scum.

 

"You don't follow the standards I specifically make for you, (but clearly don't follow myself because I'm way too wealthy to be concerned about my house, my healthcare or pension), so it's your fault for it not working.. know what.. give me 1.2 trillion and maybe I'll make something better for you, which I again won't follow myself of course, because my family has it's own personal 150 million insurance pot".

 

I...I'm not even sure where to start on this one...are you saying we should outsource our companions to mos eisley? I honestly don't even know what side your arguing for. None of us feel entitled, we still had to grind up slicing, all we are saying is that us doing that enabled you as a nonslicer (assuming you are a nonslicer) to craft and get a value for your craft. Where as now your craft has no value. If you rather no one have money, I guess you are very happy.

[Hajizan]

Very few of my items sold, which had been steady sellers prepatch.

 

I hear that the china farmers are starting to sell their credits, I guess business looks good for them now.

[Sterrius]

most effects from lack of slicers will start only later.

 

= In the next 24-48 hours expect less missions on the market. Missions can stay in the GNT for 2 days so we still have 24 hours with the "old prices". You still are going to find them because of investigation, but dont expect too see a good number now.

 

About the lack of money you need more or less a week. As people realize doing missions dont worth the trouble anymore, much better spend the time farming mobs or doing quests. (What i was doing anyway, now i just dont care sending comp to missions when i can get their profit with few kills).

 

And i gived up trying to up my synthweaving. Cost too much and i can´t pay my way to 400 without underworld trading. So now i only have 1real profession, archeology.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Sterrius

[acheros]

People actually buy gear from the AH while leveling? Isn't that a colossal waiste of credits?

 

a colossal waste of credits, that we could afford, because of slicing.

 

do you see the problem?

[Morticoccus]

The problem here is that everyone that complained about slicing brought up the inflation point as this huge red neon sign that everyone should see, and then continued to grind their point into our retinas by constantly referring to slicing as money printing, free money and so on.

 

However, if you pay your companion a sum of money, give him some time, in which he can do nothing else, and then get more money back than you sent him out with I call that an investment.

 

Not a money print.

 

In addition to that, everyone else whine about their crew skills not making enough money to be worth leveling, and that if you use your mats to make something you "lose money."

 

You clearly should whine about your skills being worthless, instead of cursing the people that are using one that works.

 

Because of this mentality all crafted items and especially speciality mats like for example medical supplies are mysteriously absent from the trade net, even when people with slicing want to buy them.

 

How can you complain about inflation when there is nothing to buy, that does seem to be an issue of production instead of inflation to me...

 

Furthermore, if you "lose money" when you craft something, why is noone selling the materials instead? Say I want 10 alien blood samples or molecular programmers to make some low level reuseable medpacks and stims? I go to the trade kiosk and what do I find?

 

Materials costing 10k? A hundred? A million? No, I find small packages of crafting materials, occasionally, costing a few hundred credits, and never enough to supply my biochem skill.

 

But at the same time, if I were to pick up diplomacy on my main character I would lose the only way to actually afford to level a completely mission dependent crew skill while still being able to afford anything else at all. I mean, just the crafting schematic training rapidly climbs into the thousands of credits, same thing with class skills.

 

If you remove the greatest source of income but not moderate the prices in game, you will create a simulated inflation instead.