Lets make our voices heard - Boss fights and level sync

[Kajuratus]

If you wanna go even further, only ever have your companion in heal mode, but turn off all their abilities. That way, they'll still use their basic attack, but it won't be as powerful as if they were in dps or tank stance

[LyraineAlei]

I'd say yes, it would be nice to rework those instanced boss encounters that take place on lower level planets intended for higher level characters, like the ending of the Warrior and Inquisitor class stories. Ending the Inquisitor Act One mission by whittling Zash down to 1 hp within 3-5 seconds and then, through a cutscene, have her force push me against a pillar as if I was nothing just felt immersion breaking. Ideally, I would like the instanced encounters to scale to your current level, similar to how the rakghoul event works in the Rakghoul tunnels. But probably, the easiest solution (other than ignoring this thread) has already been stated, to bump up any gold enemies to... you know, that star icon that world bosses have. Even with level sync, you would still have skills, passives and companions that would be more than a match for even a shiny star enemy.

 

Funny thing is, level syncing was implemented so we WEREN'T overpowered on lower level planets

 

Yes! I knew I remembered that there was a mission or somewhere that sync'd to the player's level. Class Story Instances at the least could be like those or something.

[IanArgent]

I'd say yes, it would be nice to rework those instanced boss encounters that take place on lower level planets intended for higher level characters, like the ending of the Warrior and Inquisitor class stories. Ending the Inquisitor Act One mission by whittling Zash down to 1 hp within 3-5 seconds and then, through a cutscene, have her force push me against a pillar as if I was nothing just felt immersion breaking. Ideally, I would like the instanced encounters to scale to your current level, similar to how the rakghoul event works in the Rakghoul tunnels. But probably, the easiest solution (other than ignoring this thread) has already been stated, to bump up any gold enemies to... you know, that star icon that world bosses have. Even with level sync, you would still have skills, passives and companions that would be more than a match for even a shiny star enemy.

 

Funny thing is, level syncing was implemented so we WEREN'T overpowered on lower level planets

 

So what gets cut/delayed to do this? The story bosses are already elites, and have the standard sets of immunities that comes with that. I keep saying it, in a perfect world, I'd like to see them redone. But doing so takes effort I'd rather see them spend on new content than on going back and making minor tuning changes that each character sees once, and my existing characters have already seen

[MayhemofChaonus]

But, the fights were only "hard" when the level cap was 50. I did the JC, JK, and Trooper storylines pre-4.0, but at either 55 or 60 depending on when I did them, and I steamrolled those fights. Even the JK one where I had to use the "gift gear" for T7 because I hadn't kept his gear up to date (and it was much worse than the comp gear I could have crafted).

 

 

Back in my day, when we did the JK fight T7 was only a one-time use cushion to protect us from the first successful cast of the Emperor's one-shot kill! And we did the rest of the fight after that by ourselves!

 

But seriously I remember lvling my first knight to 50 and only managed to kill the Emperor with a dead/de-activated T7, all my defensive CD's except Focused Defense (because back then it had a completely different effect and was absolute $#!t...) used and roughly 10% of my hp left. I still hold that fight in the highest esteem for most exhilarating gaming experience ever. I truly felt accomplished and satisfied when I won. The only fights that were more rewarding were the First Son and Thanaton, although Baras was close behind the JK fight.

 

In the end people are slowly coming to the same conclusion and that is that level sync was a stupid idea. Now people are demanding some bosses and instances to not-be lvl synced or synced differently etc. Why bother, remove the thing completely, was a stupid idea to start with.

 

Lol your ignorance is adorable. Level Sync was FAR preferable to the previous state of the game. WAYYYYYY more preferable. Like all things Bioware has made recently though (*cough cough* ever since they sold out to EA *cough cough*), it has its own set of issues and problems that it brings with it. So while lvl sync is was an improvement, it wasn't much of one, because it introduced a whole butt-load of problems to replace almost all of the ones it solved.

 

So what gets cut/delayed to do this? The story bosses are already elites, and have the standard sets of immunities that comes with that. I keep saying it, in a perfect world, I'd like to see them redone. But doing so takes effort I'd rather see them spend on new content than on going back and making minor tuning changes that each character sees once, and my existing characters have already seen

 

Sudden idea! Maybe they should implement these changes just before releasing the ability to replay the vanilla story content! Or even as I have suggested in the past, release a Hard Mode version of each of the vanilla stories that can be replayed infinitely by the appropriate class. You keep your gear, outfits, items, level ect, and only lose your companions, quest items, and cutscene powers (of course). However, because your so strong now, all the instanced story content gets buffed dramatically. Perhaps even adding other difficulties like Nightmare (where new, Dark Souls-level mechanics are added to bosses) would further increase SWTOR's replay-ability for people who aren't warming up to the new story content that is so obviously an attempt to turn SWTOR into a literal KOTOR 3...

Edited September 10, 2016 by MayhemofChaonus

[Kajuratus]

going back and making minor tuning changes that each character sees once, and my existing characters have already seen

 

This Dark vs Light event is pretty insistent on creating new characters, ones who CAN experience those encounters again. Seeing as the level sync was something that not many people asked for, and the results have been mixed with most people appreciating it, would you say that was a waste of time? I wonder what got pushed back or cut for that feature to be implemented?

[peter_plankskull]

Gods that "blablabla to easy blablabla" from some random kids who think it makes them look "cool" gets so annying, you want it more challenging? Put away your companion and take off your armor but no you (example) go into a level 50 fight with level 65 gear and then whine it's too easy.....the stupidity.....

 

Why should we have to miss out such a crucial part, and lynchpin of this game, to stop making this game completely face roll. It's one thing to change their stance and such, but to tell people to COMPLETELY dismiss one of the biggest aspects of this game is just selfish.

 

I myself am actually quite tired of the "game so hard!!11!" rumors when we literally have jesus companions. This game isn't a walking simulator, the games combat is suppose to make us think and determine the best approach to a situation and use our brains to defeat the obstacle at hand, or else combat wouldn't exist. I leveled a JK vigilance guardian, and went completely naked with the exception from the light saber from the forge, and still plowed my way through the entire game with ease using Kira as a DPS in solo content. Ill admit, I got my bum handed to me on the later planets when attempting to do heroics... until I turned Kira onto heals, but for solo play, I was literally unstoppable.

 

I would MUCH prefer difficulty selections rather than going through hoops and missing out on huge parts of the game so we can all settle and get our piece of the pie.

[IanArgent]

I would MUCH prefer difficulty selections rather than going through hoops and missing out on huge parts of the game so we can all settle and get our piece of the pie.

 

What new content gets cut for this, both to implement it in the first place, and then the doubling (or more) of QC test cases to maintain it? Ops? PvP? A couple of chapters out of every upcoming season?

 

This only matters to people who did the class stories in the first year, and have memories of that difficulty. Between increases in the level cap and the changes in the game, the story missions will never be as hard as they were at launch.

[IanArgent]

This Dark vs Light event is pretty insistent on creating new characters, ones who CAN experience those encounters again. Seeing as the level sync was something that not many people asked for, and the results have been mixed with most people appreciating it, would you say that was a waste of time? I wonder what got pushed back or cut for that feature to be implemented?

 

Level sync fixed an actual problem. That you could level high enough to make fights in the game completely pointless, in that you couldn't be hit by the enemy, and you got basically no rewards either. IT was part of the core refurbishment of the game in 4.0

 

I will also note that the majority of the original game area (up to and including the chapter 3 boss fights) is about as difficult as the KotFE fights. The two encounters that don't take place on Corellia or in private planetary instances, are easier than the ones that do; but they're not that much easier. It's pretty clear that the devs have a target difficulty for the single player story part of TOR today, and that it's at a lower level than at launch, across the board.

[peter_plankskull]

What new content gets cut for this, both to implement it in the first place, and then the doubling (or more) of QC test cases to maintain it? Ops? PvP? A couple of chapters out of every upcoming season?

 

This only matters to people who did the class stories in the first year, and have memories of that difficulty. Between increases in the level cap and the changes in the game, the story missions will never be as hard as they were at launch.

 

Like GSF, ops, and group content as a whole are getting content anyway lol. If they want to be a RPG, they should have some of the positive aspects to having one.

[Nempo]

Back in my day, when we did the JK fight T7 was only a one-time use cushion to protect us from the first successful cast of the Emperor's one-shot kill! And we did the rest of the fight after that by ourselves!

 

Maaaaan why did you have to mentiont hat. I'm all nostalgic and want to experience it again now and know full well I can't. These days you can turn T7 passive and trounce the emperor yourself without even once feeling any danger.

 

The first son fight is pathetic...his endless project storm is now interuptible for crying out loud! You used to have to EAT that damage using defensives or self healing (because if you were using a healing companion back then and weren't a tank you were actually sub-par battle strength). As a shadow tank back then...I had Nadia with me and timed our bursts of damage (ah yes...back when being a shadow tank meant you were squisher but easily tanked tech/force skills while pumping out a LOT more damage than other tanks) to try and "stagger" the first son. Used to be you could only interupt the project storm by spike damaging him so he would interupt himself to bubble himself.

 

Thanaton, another great fight. Originally he had a special boss buff that made him more succeptable to Khem's special consume force ability (it was a health steal back then that taunted and had respectible damage for a companion tank) and for a time after Khem hit him with it Thanaton's damage would dip. If you left Khem auto do it you would need to time your defensives for the period between the drop off and the next ability use, and heal while he was weakened. Now days? Mind Crush -> Thunderblast = dead Thanatos...2 casts and dead.

 

I don't remember Baras having too many special triggers, just being a straight up tough saber duel and dueling force pushes into leaps, heh.

[IanArgent]

IF they've made the fights mechanically easier over time, more evidence that they now intend the fights to be easier.

[omaan]

IF they've made the fights mechanically easier over time, more evidence that they now intend the fights to be easier.

 

And it's stupid, darth barath, emperor and other bosses musnt be so weak

[IanArgent]

And it's stupid, darth barath, emperor and other bosses musnt be so weak

 

Why? I mean, really, why should your skill level be the floor?

[Kajuratus]

It creates a disconnect between the player and the character, if you've just dueled Thanaton on Corellia and are about to duel him on Korriban, you'd expect a similar level of diffficulty right? Instead, you have a fight that presents quite a reasonable health pool and damage output compared to everything else you've been doing on Corellia, and then faced with something more pitiful than a regular mob on Korriban.

 

And in regards to what you said about level sync, there was nothing that was in need to be fixed. There was no reason to go back to those old planets anyway. No need to do heroics because the rewards were only useful to characters that shared the same level as the heroic (give or take 2-3 levels). No need to kill the World bosses because the gear they dropped was only useful to characters of that level aswell.

 

Intersting that you note the KOTFE fights, did you know that Bioware delayed the release of chapter 16 to give the final chapter more of an "emotional impact"? Was that a waste of resources, since people will only experience that once on their character? Do you think that people will play the Fallen Empire story on all of their characters?

[MayhemofChaonus]

Why? I mean, really, why should your skill level be the floor?

 

Because your a damn dirty casual! You're kind isn't welcome here, get out!

 

Seriously though? Our skill level wouldn't be the floor if BW implemented what we're suggesting. Adding a HM option for the story wouldn't force incompetent, wanna-be gamers to improve and become competent at the game (which btw is how games are supposed to work). It would only allow us capable players to actually enjoy the story for once in a few years...Even making the bossfights we're discussing appropriately difficult would in no way hurt anyone who wasn't a total moron who wins fights by key-bashing. So take your high-and-mighty attitude, your ignorance, and your disgusting sympathy for the stupid and incompetent and go to WOW or some other MMO that is turning itself into a movie that you occasionally click on the screen. Some of us want our Star Wars games to be an actual challenge, and not just in the group content.

 

In all honesty, if you aren't just playing Devil's Advocate then you and your kind disgusts me.

Edited September 10, 2016 by MayhemofChaonus

[Nempo]

It used to be a 'thing' that JKs would sit on fleet and ask/beg for assistance in fighting the emperor.

I can remember helping many Sorcs do the Thanaton fight because doing that timing with Khem's attacks was rough.

 

First Son fight typically required a lot of helping too. Heck ALL of Corellia was originally (ok in Beta it was even higher tuned) tuned to be an H2...the entire planet. So having help was just a common thing. Every 2 months like clockwork the Act3 planets got easier and easier right from release. Basically in response to people whining that they can't find anyone to run with them (because they are too socially inept/awkward to say hi to someone in the same zone?) or were unwilling to respec in order to do the content solo (which typically meant being a tank and taking twice as long to do everything but being able to solo it). Like today, when I went to help such people having so many problems, it was in large part due to them not using all of their tools (droid hacking, stuns, interupts, short term blinds on mobs you aren't hitting, imobing enemies in between attacks on your target, etc). Heck the 'Revan' flashpoints of mid game (maelstrom and foundry) used to require DPS to CC targets just for the group to stay alive.

[IanArgent]

It creates a disconnect between the player and the character, if you've just dueled Thanaton on Corellia and are about to duel him on Korriban, you'd expect a similar level of diffficulty right? Instead, you have a fight that presents quite a reasonable health pool and damage output compared to everything else you've been doing on Corellia, and then faced with something more pitiful than a regular mob on Korriban.

 

As it happens, I just did the Darth Thanaton fight a month or so back; neither the Correlia fight nor the DK fight were notably difficult, nor was the Correlia version of the fight noticeably more difficult than the one on DK. Given that I would have been 60 and both fights were set to L50 (as they had to be since you could arrive at them at L50 for a variety of reasons), btoh fights would have been absolute walkovers because the 10-level difference would have meant Thanaton could barely affect me, because of the way large level differences worked (and still work, usually to the PC's detriment, but you can get a similar level differential on the starter planets).

 

And in regards to what you said about level sync, there was nothing that was in need to be fixed. There was no reason to go back to those old planets anyway. No need to do heroics because the rewards were only useful to characters that shared the same level as the heroic (give or take 2-3 levels). No need to kill the World bosses because the gear they dropped was only useful to characters of that level aswell.

 

Level sync mitigates the issue I ran into where for the vast majority of my time playing pre-4.0 I was far enough overlevel that the combats were absolutely poitlesss as the enemies could not affect me at all (save for knockback and stun). They could not even do the mediocre amount of damage they can do to me under level sync today. IT's also a tool to allow them to set additional content (today it's only the Star Fortress shield bunkers, admittedly) on previous planets, and use any space on the planet as a challenge.

 

Intersting that you note the KOTFE fights, did you know that Bioware delayed the release of chapter 16 to give the final chapter more of an "emotional impact"? Was that a waste of resources, since people will only experience that once on their character? Do you think that people will play the Fallen Empire story on all of their characters?

 

I've played through it 3 times, and am planning to do it several more times. Just as I've played through previous story content. My point about the waste of effort is that a "difficulty slider" requires extra QC, in that you have to run through each test case with your difficulty slider set to each "Stop," and have to generate additional test cases for changing difficulty in the middle of missions. That's the ongoing maintenance cost. Pluis the goofiness it'd have on open-world shared content. How do you handle grouping up for people set to different skill levels?

 

Because your a damn dirty casual! You're kind isn't welcome here, get out!

 

Seriously though? Our skill level wouldn't be the floor if BW implemented what we're suggesting. Adding a HM option for the story wouldn't force incompetent, wanna-be gamers to improve and become competent at the game (which btw is how games are supposed to work). It would only allow us capable players to actually enjoy the story for once in a few years...Even making the bossfights we're discussing appropriately difficult would in no way hurt anyone who wasn't a total moron who wins fights by key-bashing. So take your high-and-mighty attitude, your ignorance, and your disgusting sympathy for the stupid and incompetent and go to WOW or some other MMO that is turning itself into a movie that you occasionally click on the screen. Some of us want our Star Wars games to be an actual challenge, and not just in the group content.

 

In all honesty, if you aren't just playing Devil's Advocate then you and your kind disgusts me.

 

My kind? What about my kind? The one that thinks core story content should be fully accessible to someone who has no desire/ability to raise their skill to "Hard Mode" levels? I've already pointed out why SWTOR being an ongoing-release game has a much higher burden for maintenance of a difficulty slider than a one-and-done game (like, say, KOTOR) would. Or was that "filthy casual" line not a joke? Because there's a lot more "casuals" playing this game than you think, and our sub is the same cost as yours.

 

(Casual as in time spent in game; skill-wise I do OK - I can win the odd PvP match and don't get "Carried" in the group PvE content I engage in)

[Mahoukenshi]

Because your a damn dirty casual! You're kind isn't welcome here, get out!

 

Seriously though? Our skill level wouldn't be the floor if BW implemented what we're suggesting. Adding a HM option for the story wouldn't force incompetent, wanna-be gamers to improve and become competent at the game (which btw is how games are supposed to work). It would only allow us capable players to actually enjoy the story for once in a few years...Even making the bossfights we're discussing appropriately difficult would in no way hurt anyone who wasn't a total moron who wins fights by key-bashing. So take your high-and-mighty attitude, your ignorance, and your disgusting sympathy for the stupid and incompetent and go to WOW or some other MMO that is turning itself into a movie that you occasionally click on the screen. Some of us want our Star Wars games to be an actual challenge, and not just in the group content.

 

In all honesty, if you aren't just playing Devil's Advocate then you and your kind disgusts me.

 

Lol, get off your high horse and smell the coffee. You are not as important or awesome as you believe and behave . If anything to go by; seeing how often you use the word disgusting and belittle a player group in your post, the only disgusting person would be you yourself.

[UmbralSpirit]

I would MUCH prefer difficulty selections.

 

Really? That's kinda strange because i clearly remember when they announced the level sync the people who where against it and asked it to be an optional toggle (which would have been a kind of difficulty setting considering the way npc stats "level") where ripped to shreds on this very forums and now people complain about it being to easy.....well who saw THAT coming.....

[IanArgent]

Really? That's kinda strange because i clearly remember when they announced the level sync the people who where against it and asked it to be an optional toggle (which would have been a kind of difficulty setting considering the way npc stats "level") where ripped to shreds on this very forums and now people complain about it being to easy.....well who saw THAT coming.....

 

Wasn't me. Before level sync rolled out, I was cautiously optimistic, and after I've been against a toggle the whole time.

 

The underlying problem is that the level cap went up from 50, and to a lesser extent these fights stored being the solo endgame. Although the developers seem to be going for a lower difficulty level overall in content as well, given the end fights in KotFE.

[Kajuratus]

As it happens, I just did the Darth Thanaton fight a month or so back; neither the Correlia fight nor the DK fight were notably difficult, nor was the Correlia version of the fight noticeably more difficult than the one on DK. Given that I would have been 60 and both fights were set to L50 (as they had to be since you could arrive at them at L50 for a variety of reasons), btoh fights would have been absolute walkovers because the 10-level difference would have meant Thanaton could barely affect me, because of the way large level differences worked (and still work, usually to the PC's detriment, but you can get a similar level differential on the starter planets).)

 

You mean Korriban right? You fight Thanaton on Corellia as part of the Kaggath and then he hops off to Korriban to get the help of the Dark Council. The fights that occur on Dromund Kaas for the Inquisitor happen after Alderaan and Hoth. And I can honestly say I was completely underwhelmed by the fight against Zash at the end of Act 1.

 

I've played through it 3 times, and am planning to do it several more times. Just as I've played through previous story content. My point about the waste of effort is that a "difficulty slider" requires extra QC, in that you have to run through each test case with your difficulty slider set to each "Stop," and have to generate additional test cases for changing difficulty in the middle of missions. That's the ongoing maintenance cost. Pluis the goofiness it'd have on open-world shared content. How do you handle grouping up for people set to different skill levels?)

 

Well, you can't lie to yourself, so enjoy KOTFE several more times I guess, more power to you. And I'd have to agree that a difficulty slider would use a lot of resources and would require a lot of testing, so why not just revert those specific instances back to the level they were? Every other class (IIRC) has a level 50 boss at the end of their class stories. So why not the Warrior and Inquisitor? They used to be the appropriate level. Yes yes, it would require testing and QC to make sure it wasn't abused and that the actual level sync couldn't be overcome, but what content have we got lately? Ops? PVP? GSF? Nope, not been a lot of that stuff. But wait, they could cut chapters next! Come on, they would only push back the chapters,

 

Ultimately I think that these fights should be looked at again, since we're constantly encouraged to start new characters whether it be the DVL event, or x12 xp, or whatever may come next.

[IanArgent]

Well, you can't lie to yourself, so enjoy KOTFE several more times I guess, more power to you. And I'd have to agree that a difficulty slider would use a lot of resources and would require a lot of testing, so why not just revert those specific instances back to the level they were? Every other class (IIRC) has a level 50 boss at the end of their class stories. So why not the Warrior and Inquisitor? They used to be the appropriate level. Yes yes, it would require testing and QC to make sure it wasn't abused and that the actual level sync couldn't be overcome, but what content have we got lately? Ops? PVP? GSF? Nope, not been a lot of that stuff. But wait, they could cut chapters next! Come on, they would only push back the chapters,

 

Ultimately I think that these fights should be looked at again, since we're constantly encouraged to start new characters whether it be the DVL event, or x12 xp, or whatever may come next.

 

My point in contrasting the Corellia version of the fight vs the Korriban (I didn't recall the planet it was on other than it being a very early one) was that the difference between the fight synced to L50 and the fight synced to L12 wasn't that big - they were both walkovers at L65, even under level sync to the planetary cap. The L50 fight was marginally harder, but not really noticeably so. Even if they could easily set the end fights to the same level cap as the Corellia ones (I suspect they can't do so easily, myself, without moving the encounter "off planet"), it's just not going to matter that much. If the level cap goes up again, it will matter even less. And they can't set the end bosses higher than 50, because it's still at least theoretically possible to get to Corellia at the target level (non-sub, no extra content).

[Baldrix]

Speaking from an immersion point of view... i think wiping the floor with a weakened Baras was spot on. I noticed my character heavy breathing in the cutscene and realised later he was out of breath due to laughing uncontrolably at Baras

[peter_plankskull]

Really? That's kinda strange because i clearly remember when they announced the level sync the people who where against it and asked it to be an optional toggle (which would have been a kind of difficulty setting considering the way npc stats "level") where ripped to shreds on this very forums and now people complain about it being to easy.....well who saw THAT coming.....

 

I wasn't posting on the forums at the time... as I was occupied in the game, now I just sit, craft, and wait for queues, maybe socialize if some guildies are on, maybe in gen chat too, while posting on the forums...

 

I'm all for giving players choices in this game, that way one group doesn't win over the other, and we all get fair treatment. Level sync itself isn't bad, but since your 2 levels over the planet, mixed with OP companions and such, its literally impossible to die without aggroing multiple mobs with a companion out. Raised health of the enemies with additional mechanics to interrupt, stun, and CC would be nice compared to the boring difficulty we have now.

[IanArgent]

I wasn't posting on the forums at the time... as I was occupied in the game, now I just sit, craft, and wait for queues, maybe socialize if some guildies are on, maybe in gen chat too, while posting on the forums...

 

I'm all for giving players choices in this game, that way one group doesn't win over the other, and we all get fair treatment. Level sync itself isn't bad, but since your 2 levels over the planet, mixed with OP companions and such, its literally impossible to die without aggroing multiple mobs with a companion out. Raised health of the enemies with additional mechanics to interrupt, stun, and CC would be nice compared to the boring difficulty we have now.

 

Nice for you, but not so much for people at lower skill levels. There's plenty of places in the game wiht higher difficulty than the story. Core story missions are no place for "difficulty." They need to be open to the lowest level of skill the devs want playing the game.

 

At any rate, for the vast majority of the game, LEvel Sync effectively brought the difficulty floor up to the minimum for many players because it made the enemies no longer unable to hurt you.