How many are looking forward to KOTET?

[Aowin]

meh, I think it's just as simple as all the class stories were written with a male in mind and then tweaked to accommodate female afterwards.

 

Maybe so. BioWare has been doing a pretty good job in terms of gender equality the last few years though, at least in terms of their single player games. Hopefully they'll catch up on SWTOR as well. I definitely do believe some classes, such as the Jedi Knight and Sith Warrior, were definitely written with male protagonists in mind. The main reason I say this is because of how well developed their love interests (Kira and DS Jaesa) are compared to most of the companions in the game.

[LyraineAlei]

I'd say maybe they learned from all this. But they didnt from Makeb or SoR. In fact they made it WORSE. Makeb was a masterpiece compared to the stuff that came after.

 

*mutter* SoR was a masterpiece compared to KotFE. SoR was a story that while it fit the Jedi the most, the other classes weren't completely randomly shoehorned in until Ziost with the Emperor being all "worried" about what we're doing because our non-Force users are "strong willed" or something, though each of those through Ziost did SoR, so maybe taking down Revan would be cause of concern.

 

KotFE was Knight story continuation, with an alternative of Warrior story continuation (some playthroughs more easily than other playthroughs depending on your choices). You could put Consular or Inquisitor is without too much head juggling on each faction (so sensibly, KotFE fits Knight, then Warrior, then Consular, then Inquisitor best, in that order). *mutters about Smugglers and Agents and Troopers and Hunters being badly handwaved into being considered threats or people of much interest to Vity/Valky* *mutters*

 

Makeb was great though, long and I hate the planet for taking so long (the effing laser platforms part the most!), but as a story, no class was shoehorned as badly as in KotFE because everyone had motive to be there (Jedi Code Says But Thou Must, Government Leader Ordered It, Government Leader Promised Good Pay, For Imperial Advantages In the War for the basic rundown from what I can remember). Makeb had an Operation that went along with the Makeb Story, but not locking the story behind the Operation like Oricon did, or a Flashpoint like Ilum did (back before FPs could be solo'd with ease or had Solo Modes).

 

I hope everyone learned from KotFE, but the timeline of development is that most likely, the lessons of KotFE won't arrive until Knights of the Eternal Paperwork (or whatever the expansion after KotET will be called, I like KotEP for now).

[Ralei]

Maybe so. BioWare has been doing a pretty good job in terms of gender equality the last few years though, at least in terms of their single player games. Hopefully they'll catch up on SWTOR as well. I definitely do believe some classes, such as the Jedi Knight and Sith Warrior, were definitely written with male protagonists in mind. The main reason I say this is because of how well developed their love interests (Kira and DS Jaesa) are compared to most of the companions in the game.

 

The only one I can see being female first was the Consular story (cause all women play healers in mmo's, right? ) You've got Iresso, Tharan, and Zenith as interesting, attractive male characters. Then Nadia as the afterthought.

 

But I agree that Bioware is head and shoulders above most companies, and adding same sex romances was a huge plus as well!

[Toweleeeie]

Makeb was the last content created or well started by the original Bioware team. The rest was created after all the firing/quitting and reorganization.

 

And mark me down as not looking forward to more chapters.

Edited August 27, 2016 by Toweleeeie

[Aowin]

Makeb was the last content created or well started by the original Bioware team. The rest was created after all the firing/quitting and reorganization.

 

And mark me down as not looking forward to more chapters.

 

This is not actually true. BioWare started downsizing and seeing much of its leadership leaving after the first three months of the game's release. By the end of 2012 and the introduction of F2P, most of the leadership at the studio had changed and even many of the writers left. RotHC did not release until early 2013 with Hal Hood (JK and Smuggler writer) taking over as lead writer on the game. BioWare Austin's team has constantly been in flux and changing since the game launched. The only lead designer on the game that I know who has been in the same position since the start is James Ohlen.

 

I personally don't agree with many posters here that Makeb was a masterpiece, let alone SoR. I hated RotHC and still do. Sure, the story was more applicable to all classes. However, the story was boring and largely pointless in my eyes. I wanted to fight the Empire/Republic, not fight the Hutts on a random planet. SoR had a better story, but it was ruined by BioWare's attempt at cashing in on Revan's popularity due to the KotOR games. I didn't feel either of those expansions had really quality storytelling and certainly not even on the level of the class stories at launch.

 

At least KOTFE made attempts to put the focus back on story, albeit not perfectly. BioWare needs to do more to make the other classes relevant, but overall I think they are going in the right direction. They just need to make some adjustments and I think many folks will enjoy the story going forward. I definitely enjoyed the story far more than RotHC or SoR. I never even bother doing RotHC, partially because I hate Makeb's planet design, and I try to avoid SoR as well.

[LyraineAlei]

I personally don't agree with many posters here that Makeb was a masterpiece, let alone SoR. I hated RotHC and still do. Sure, the story was more applicable to all classes. However, the story was boring and largely pointless in my eyes. I wanted to fight the Empire/Republic, not fight the Hutts on a random planet. SoR had a better story, but it was ruined by BioWare's attempt at cashing in on Revan's popularity due to the KotOR games. I didn't feel either of those expansions had really quality storytelling and certainly not even on the level of the class stories at launch.

 

At least KOTFE made attempts to put the focus back on story, albeit not perfectly. BioWare needs to do more to make the other classes relevant, but overall I think they are going in the right direction. They just need to make some adjustments and I think many folks will enjoy the story going forward. I definitely enjoyed the story far more than RotHC or SoR. I never even bother doing RotHC, partially because I hate Makeb's planet design, and I try to avoid SoR as well.

 

Nonono, Makeb wasn't a masterpiece, and compared to the base game, it's not that great, but compared to KotFE, at least IMO, Makeb was great. Makeb had faction stories, so either side had a different story, and that's pretty much the only truly "Great" thing, but Makeb did do some things right - it had story, it had group stuff, and I know later on, it included PvP stuff like maps, it expanded story and group stuff (MAcrobinocs, Seeker Droids, Oricon, CZ, and the heroics and FPs that go with those). SoR had group stuff (Forged Alliances FPs), story (same story regardless of faction with a little class flavoring and a slight variation on conversations depending on Class and faction), more group stuff (Sure, broken and originally exploitable, but they were there), and later had a PvP map (but other than Rishi and Yavin, no other new planets for a daily zone). KotFE has story, Star Fortress (basically FPs as a group, if even), EC (from reading it seems that no one does this in group either), and more story that people had been predicting for months.

 

And I agree with you on Makeb's planet design be horrendous. And the story wasn't that great compared to base game and Ilum where we first had the faction-unique and not class-unique stuff. But RotHC had stuff for everyone. SoR had stuff for everyone, not as much as RotHC because it only brought us in the end two new planets not three, but it did have stuff.

 

Heck, I'll even throw in that SoR's story when looked at, isn't that great compared to the base game, I agree. KotFE's story is better, but if I play it all at once, judging from the videos, each chapter after IX is truly episodic and disjointed, even though (as forum posts have complained) some of the X-XVI chapters will automatically start after the earlier one is finished.

 

TL;DR- Not saying that the stories were truly great when stepping back to look at the game as a whole, but the earlier expansions were less specifically class-favored (until Ziost, but that handwaving was a little more believable considering the context of the handwaving), had content for all of the player types (minus the people who like to play through the stories in groups on SoR), and once the bugs and chaos calmed and were worked out RotHC and SoR seem like better expansions than KotFE since KotFE focused so purely on (seemingly one class') story (yes, they did include some other stuff, but they don't feel or seem as well polished).

[Aowin]

...

 

I don't disagree with a lot of your critiques. I find most of your points to be fair and reasonable. I've been playing MMOs for over a decade and my favorite MMO will always be SWG, which is nothing like SWTOR (other than both being Star Wars obviously).

 

That being said, what largely drew me into this game was the fact that it was BioWare's first MMO, and the fact that it was a KOTOR MMO. That's not to say that I didn't want raids and PvP. I enjoy raiding and PvPing is about all I do. However, what really peaked my interest in this MMO was the focus on story, which no other MMO truly offers.

 

RotHC and SoR, in that department, were pretty disappointing. I agree they were much more well-rounded in terms of offering traditional MMO-type content. However, even in those fronts I don't believe either expansion was exceptional.

 

KOTFE should have tried to appeal to more demographics in the community. I enjoyed Star Fortress, but I could see why many wouldn't see it as a flashpoint and it is admittedly quite easy. The Eternal Championship is pretty fun, especially with the nods to KOTOR 1, but it only has so much replay value. I still say doing level sync and revitalizing heroics was ingenious on BioWare's part.

 

BioWare actually did a lot of things in terms of group content, it's just not all of it was new. People clearly want everything to be new and not necessarily running through previous content, even if it has been re-leveled and has new gear sets and toys. I understand all of those critiques. Hopefully BioWare will find a better balance going forward, but I still do believe the focus should be story.

 

That's what made this MMO stand out originally. I believe if BioWare can find a healthy mix while also making the story more relatable, I think folks in general would be a lot happier. Add in a new operation or two. Add in some flashpoints. I think many critics would become silent. I just don't agree with this sentiment that the story needs to be reeled back or become a secondary feature because this is an "MMO" and not a "single player RPG."

Edited August 27, 2016 by Aowin

[KyaniteD]

Nonono, Makeb wasn't a masterpiece, and compared to the base game, it's not that great, but compared to KotFE, at least IMO, Makeb was great. Makeb had faction stories, so either side had a different story, and that's pretty much the only truly "Great" thing, but Makeb did do some things right - it had story, it had group stuff, and I know later on, it included PvP stuff like maps, it expanded story and group stuff (MAcrobinocs, Seeker Droids, Oricon, CZ, and the heroics and FPs that go with those). SoR had group stuff (Forged Alliances FPs), story (same story regardless of faction with a little class flavoring and a slight variation on conversations depending on Class and faction), more group stuff (Sure, broken and originally exploitable, but they were there), and later had a PvP map (but other than Rishi and Yavin, no other new planets for a daily zone). KotFE has story, Star Fortress (basically FPs as a group, if even), EC (from reading it seems that no one does this in group either), and more story that people had been predicting for months.

 

And I agree with you on Makeb's planet design be horrendous. And the story wasn't that great compared to base game and Ilum where we first had the faction-unique and not class-unique stuff. But RotHC had stuff for everyone. SoR had stuff for everyone, not as much as RotHC because it only brought us in the end two new planets not three, but it did have stuff.

 

Heck, I'll even throw in that SoR's story when looked at, isn't that great compared to the base game, I agree. KotFE's story is better, but if I play it all at once, judging from the videos, each chapter after IX is truly episodic and disjointed, even though (as forum posts have complained) some of the X-XVI chapters will automatically start after the earlier one is finished.

 

TL;DR- Not saying that the stories were truly great when stepping back to look at the game as a whole, but the earlier expansions were less specifically class-favored (until Ziost, but that handwaving was a little more believable considering the context of the handwaving), had content for all of the player types (minus the people who like to play through the stories in groups on SoR), and once the bugs and chaos calmed and were worked out RotHC and SoR seem like better expansions than KotFE since KotFE focused so purely on (seemingly one class') story (yes, they did include some other stuff, but they don't feel or seem as well polished).

 

RotHC & 2.x had everything but class story. New FPs, new ops, new daily areas, new pvp maps, new mini-games, solo quests (unfortunately with a heroic finale, for whatever reason), new galactic story bits, GSH, GSF, etc. etc. It was truly expanding the game in every aspect but class story.

 

SoR felt a lot less like an expansion, and KotFE not at all. KotFE is story continuation, with just the places accessible that are needed for that story. I can't even go back and complete the map if I missed a corner, because it's instanced and I'm locked out.

[Transcendent]

Any time the ADD something to the game, it's good for it...so I'm looking forward to new content being added...but I hope they don't completely ignore repeatable and group activities again this time.

 

I'm hoping they don't lock any potentially new repeatable solo / group content behind the expansion itself (Star Fortresses / The Eternal Championship).

 

To be fair, everything at this moment in time is pure speculation on KotET. It's hard to become even remotely interested or excited about an expansion that they haven't given us any information on. Especially when they jumped a ton of changes to the core gameplay experience on us at the last minute with KotFE.

 

I'll hold fire on looking forward to it until BioWare deem us worthy enough to share information and communicate with us.

[gabigool]

It's hard to become even remotely interested or excited about an expansion that they haven't given us any information on. Especially when they jumped a ton of changes to the core gameplay experience on us at the last minute with KotFE.

 

I'll hold fire on looking forward to it until BioWare deem us worthy enough to share information and communicate with us.

 

Well said.

[BlueShiftRecall]

It's hard to become even remotely interested or excited about an expansion that they haven't given us any information on.

 

Totally agree, and I don't think we're finding out anything about it at all until October

Edited August 27, 2016 by BlueShiftRecall

[rantboi]

Totally agree, and I don't think were finding out anything about it at all until October

 

and in october we will find out that choices will matter even more than in kotfe, subscriber rewards will be even better than before, there will be even more new companions, and that there will be new group content but they still won't say what it is

[Toweleeeie]

Makeb expansion was already planned out and stuff was already created before the game was even released.

[Aowin]

Makeb expansion was already planned out and stuff was already created before the game was even released.

 

Again, this is not the case. Before SWTOR even released, the original plan for SWTOR was to have free, frequent content updates instead of traditional expansions. BioWare's founders talked about how they wanted to have a constant, steady stream of new content being added to the game in a short period of time at no additional charge.

 

These plans were dashed due to SWTOR's disappointing lack of longevity at launch and the turn to a F2P model. Ironically enough, KOTFE is actually more in line with what BioWare originally wanted to do with expansion content.

[KyaniteD]

Makeb expansion was already planned out and stuff was already created before the game was even released.

 

I think that's a well-known fact. But what is your point? The only point I can think of is that current funding of the game doesn't allow for the same amount of man-hours to be put into any new game extension. The game had no clear focus and attracted a vast variety of players, which overall for a game is nice at a single point in time, but not good for maintaining all the different aspects equally over a period of time. It's getting focus now on what devs and/or TPTB perceived to be the aspect with the largest percentage of participating/interested players. And some of those who vehemently called for more story may now realize that story isn't everything, after all.

 

My very secret, very tentative, fragile hope is that KotFE and KotET are interludes to bridge the time that it takes to develop a real expansion. But I'm not holding my breath for it. More likely the game will turn into an interactive TV show with people binge-watching at the end of each season.

 

 

Again, this is not the case.

5 months after launch we were presented with outlines and details that later turned out to be Makeb/RotHC. I think there was even a picture of Treek, not sure though, memory is a bit fuzzy. Pretty sure it took more than a year to turn Makeb from an idea into a game update. If it wasn't planned before launch, they must have started working on it shortly after.

Edited August 27, 2016 by KyaniteD

[Aowin]

5 months after launch we were presented with outlines and details that later turned out to be Makeb/RotHC. I think there was even a picture of Treek, not sure though, memory is a bit fuzzy. Pretty sure it took more than a year to turn Makeb from an idea into a game update. If it wasn't planned before launch, they must have started working on it shortly after.

 

As I said, Dr. Ray Muzyka (one of the Doctors/Founders of BioWare) specifically stated what his vision was for future content/expansions for SWTOR. I'm not suggesting the story for Makeb wasn't in the works (the writing team is always creating stories way ahead of the rest of the studio). What I am saying is BioWare's initial plan was to have frequent, free updates and expansions.

 

BioWare never had any intention of doing traditional large expansions with a fee. SWTOR was forced to change course as the game struggled after three months and EA forced BioWare to transition to a F2P model. The original expansion plan was envisioned via a subscription-based MMO and not a F2P MMO. The idea was that the subscriber base would be large enough (BioWare predicted SWTOR could sustain two million subscribers) so that doing constant, free expansion content was plausible.

 

This is why I stated it was ironic that SWTOR is now going to an expansion format (free expansion with frequent updates) that was similar to what BioWare wanted to do from the start.

[americanaussie]

I can't wait. I'm happy with the current game, I wish there was more romance, but I'm hopeful for the future. I'm hopeful for more pvp/operations for the people who like that too so they can stop complaining about the lack of those things. And I wish they'd consider cross server stuff to appease the masses that complain. Although I think some people will find something else to hate about the game. I'm here for the story and I'm enjoying it.

[KyaniteD]

This is why I stated it was ironic that SWTOR is now going to an expansion format (free expansion with frequent updates) that was similar to what BioWare wanted to do from the start.

 

I don't think it's ironic, because I don't consider KotFE to be an expansion of the game. It's a story extension or continuation, but not a game expansion. 4.0 itself shrank- sorry, streamlined- more than it expanded. What Bioware may have wanted before launch may have been a continuous expansion and development of the game, but what they (we) now ended up with is streamlined gameplay, episodic story continuation in instanced locations, without new worlds to explore or new playable content (contrary to watchable content). (Which is what many wanted and still want, so when the time comes, I'll leave them to it and find my kind of fun elsewhere.)

 

What happens now is not all that different from at-once expansions: 1.) There is one point at which all new content is available and when people will subscribe/return to play it all at once 2.) There is a time when people "just play what's there". The new cycle only reversed 1 and 2 for those nomadic players. For continuous subs it makes little difference. Personally, I prefer to take my characters through the story at once, one character at a time, not all characters parallel one chapter at a time. Repetition is less tedious that way because repeating aspects are sufficiently separated by time. Taking 8 or 10 characters through the same chapter and story every month is numbing.

Edited August 27, 2016 by KyaniteD

[AllisonLightning]

As I said, Dr. Ray Muzyka (one of the Doctors/Founders of BioWare) specifically stated what his vision was for future content/expansions for SWTOR. I'm not suggesting the story for Makeb wasn't in the works (the writing team is always creating stories way ahead of the rest of the studio). What I am saying is BioWare's initial plan was to have frequent, free updates and expansions.

 

BioWare never had any intention of doing traditional large expansions with a fee. SWTOR was forced to change course as the game struggled after three months and EA forced BioWare to transition to a F2P model. The original expansion plan was envisioned via a subscription-based MMO and not a F2P MMO. The idea was that the subscriber base would be large enough (BioWare predicted SWTOR could sustain two million subscribers) so that doing constant, free expansion content was plausible.

 

This is why I stated it was ironic that SWTOR is now going to an expansion format (free expansion with frequent updates) that was similar to what BioWare wanted to do from the start.

 

 

I won't argue on plans- except that I'm not as enamoured by the Bioware founders as I was pre-Mass Effect 3. That whole sordid mess probably would've had a hand in forcing EA's interference here and quite frankly, the game was headed for certain death because of design decisions, because the constant expansion content model didn't come to pass. It's all fairytales unless you actually see that extra content and quite honestly blaming the player base or subs for not sticking around was classic of the post ME3 release period whether it was standing by idiot writers and by the founders' own admissions, the doctors had nothing to do with the ending and by the end of that, I didn't trust them and holding onto this idea they know best doesn't work with me anymore.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love Bioware but from the start, 2012 was the culmination of massive disconnect. The whole free expansion pattern we have now is a result of the fact you can't just offer subs restriction free gameplay and call it premium, I doubt it has anything to do with altruism and all the change in format, from sub to F2P did for the free expansion deal is give them an easy way to save face. Honestly, just imagining ROTHC or SOR being in segments and played over a year period makes me think the expansion release model is much better. And there was no way they were going to be able to maintain eight different stories as constant content updates either.

 

Anyone can promise all the content in the world but there wasn't any significant content until 2013 and quite frankly, I'm not inclined to blame the players leaving in droves for leaving a funding deficit. Had they been able to add constant content- the endgame wouldn't have been so derided and players wouldn't have left in droves if every month there was new content. They simply made promises they couldn't possibly fulfill.

 

Edit: I've been reading up and although there was content in that April (no story, just endgame grouping material that apparently fixes everything), it clearly had done nothing to reverse the decline forcing the change and we're talking almost five months before it was added.

Edited August 27, 2016 by AllisonLightning

[AmarantKando]

Do you happen to be looking forward to KOTET? Or are you dreading the idea of another KOTFE-type expansion?.

 

They're not expanding endgame PvE, they're not expanding PvP, so I don't really care.

[Ethern]

I don't understand what the draw of Vaylin or Arcann is. We've watched them do nothing but act and speak like angry small children the entire story. What they have in force power, they lack in IQ.

Preferences, tastes, irrational reasons why you also are attracted to X person instead of Y irl. I'm not sure that deserved some explanation to begin with.

[americanaussie]

They're not expanding endgame PvE, they're not expanding PvP, so I don't really care.

 

They've not released the details yet so hold off on the debbie downer.

[Costello]

Sadly I'm not.

 

Don't get me wrong this has nothing to do with group content (PvP or PvE) as I think those are pretty much dead after so long without anything new. My guild has gone on to pasture new that offered group content and my friends are likewise gone though perhaps for different reasons. If they did offer new group content I would have to find a new group, learn how to play again after 6 months of ease mode content with an uber healing companion I'd probably have a wake up call. And for what, to spend 3 hours looking for a tank or healer, then spend hours explaining the mechanics only to then question why the healer is in DPS spec (queued as a healer to get a quicker pop) and the tanks refuse to guard or taunt anything. And what would striving through these obstacles bring us, a choice to kill the bad guy only no matter what choice you made he would escape. Victory!

 

The reason I'm not really looking forward to Kotet is that the story for kotfe was so dull and slow that I have lost interest in my now generic character. The massive plot holes and poor story telling aside the writers have managed to craft a story doesn't tell a story, it feels a lot like sitting down to watch a Star Wars Marathon and finding I'm watching 'The Longest Most Meaningless Movie in the World' (though in this case comprised of random B movie outtakes when you may get 20 mins of continuous story before that is dropped and something else picked up), I left chapter 16 being utterly bored by it all (no I didn't make the one darkside choice that offered a slightly different cut scene). Leaving me wondering if I care where the story is going to take us or that I really want to be lead around by Lana and Theron telling me what to do awaiting the next obvious betrayal, yawn. And should I ever get to enact my vengeance have a kiddie version lacking in any of the threats I made at the start of chapter 16.

 

And that is before the kicker that for people to get the expansion on launch day cost somewhere in the region of 120 bucks. Now before anyone says it was free it didn't cost that much. Consider that Ben Irving stated Kotfe has been the most successful expansion they have had. As success for a company is measured in profits they clearly consider people are paying to play Kofte as if it were free then the total profits of this expansion would be 0 making one sale of any other expansion more profitable and more successful than Kofte (in fact with a million subs at launch that would make the original game with no expansions the most successful either in number of players or monetary value). So the thought of 120 bucks for a very dull generic story doesn't have me eager to renew my subscription when it runs out. Rather wait till next year and possibly pay a one off sub and see it all, though in a years time given the anti-climatic experience of Kotfe, it may not see worth going back into the game.

[Karkais]

Based on remarks the Producer on SWTOR has made about KOTET, it seems plausible to believe KOTET will be very similar if not identical to the expansion format that was used with KOTFE. We'll know for sure when New York Comic Con (Oct. 6-9) is here. However, it seems quite likely we should already know what to expect with what is essentially season two of KOTFE.

 

So devs, what if I hated KOTFE? >_>

[Mahoukenshi]

So devs, what if I hated KOTFE? >_>

 

Step 1: Create a farewell thread, like "I quit because" or "Bye bye forever SWTOR" post, where you state to give away all your credits and that you will be deleting your characters.

 

Step 2: Once you have reached the limit where SWTOR is not more fun for you, you'll quit BUT in reality haven't delete any characters.

 

Step 3: Should eventually be any semblance of interest return, you can play again and chuckle at the people who believed you (or went to your farewell thread to troll).