Thank you BioWare for the best expansion yet.

[Codedrago]

 

I wonder how chapter 16 was before they decided to delay it and make it more worthy for the players. I cannot even imagine.

 

From what DM offered, they changed the ending in various ways to seemingly make it more mysterious in what exactly has been accomplished.

[Tsetso]

The OP reminded me of this thread : Biggest question: Why Knights of the Fallen Empire? and the perfect answer :

They anticipated all the White Knights defending this largely garbage expansion?

[DarthSpuds]

Why do you think this?

 

And I'm not talking about the part where you call me foolish for believing people would not want "BW storytelling" in a BW MMO - since I clearly said nothing of the sort. I'm talking about the rest of your reply. It literally makes no sense.

 

Let's just say you are correct, that the majority of people purchased this game for the eight class stories.

 

(Personally, I disagree. I believe a significant number of people also liked the idea of playing a Star Wars MMO. Regardless, I'm not pretending to know)

 

I came to this game because it was Star Wars and... ...well, lightsabers.

 

But once I found out the 8 classes each had their own unique story that became a huge plus point for me, and was instrumental in me getting some of the players I played other games with to come try Star Wars.

 

And while I enjoyed RotHC and SoR I was also immensely disappointed that we were lost unique class stories.

 

I was looking forward to KotFE because we were promised a "return to Bioware storytelling" and that to me at least implied a return to divergent story arcs depending on either class or faction - and we got neither. I was also looking forward to it because we were repeatedly told that out choices would matter and 16 chapters later it is clear our choices don't matter at all and the Bioware don't even care one jot about giving us choices.

 

All that said I enjoyed the story telling in KotFE more than RotHC - but only just, but quite a bit less than I enjoyed SoR.

 

For me KotFE has been a litany of missed opportunities and Bioware snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. And they seem to have doubled-down on that fiasco with the DvL event and their amateurish attempts to fix a crisis of their own making. A crisis I might add that if they actually played the game as they claim they would never have allowed to progress beyond the initial planning stage. Anyone who genuinely plays this game would have seen the DvL Lootbox fiasco coming a parsec away.

 

All The Best

[HuaRya]

Agreed. The KOTFE story really only fits a saber wielding force user class. A bounty hunter or scoundrel would've walked away once they got off of Zakuul. While it was really cool to realize that instead of being ordinary in SWTOR that you were actually a godhead has lost it's luster.

[Aowin]

...

 

We have side quests. They are called Alliance Alerts and the entire Alliance system in general. That may not be the kind of content you specifically want, but KotFE isn't just doing linear chapters and nothing else.

 

What you are asking for was not executed well in RotHC or SoR, so I'm not really sure why you are holding this against KotFE when BioWare is clearly focusing on its strengths. Really, all of the side quests in either RotHC or SoR were exclusively dailies, and I've personally never liked dailies in any MMO. I think it's the worst kind of endgame content.

 

Again, we can't say choices don't matter because the story isn't done. As far as replayability, I'm not really sure that's necessarily the goal of KotFE either. It's episodic and we are supposed to look forward to the next chapter, not replay the previous ones. I'm certainly not suggesting there shouldn't be more replayability, but the way this expansion is constructed is for us to get frequent, new stories.

[Aowin]

...

 

The reason your statement doesn't make any sense is for the simple fact SWTOR is not the FIRST Star Wars MMO. There were two before it: SWG and Clone Wars. Sure, I'm certain some folks just wanted to try TOR because it was Star Wars. However, I guarantee you many more wanted to try it because BioWare claimed it was "KotOR 3-9" and the fact that BioWare was making its first MMO.

 

Obviously you have to assume that using the Star Wars license will attract some folks automatically. However, Star Wars isn't the sole reason I came to this game. I was happy with a much better Star Wars MMO: SWG, which was shut down right before SWTOR launched. I came here because I loved KotOR 1 and 2 and I've been a huge fan of BioWare since KotOR 1 released in 2003. Perhaps I'm in the minority, but I'd bet money most folks came to this game for that BioWare storytelling and not to participate in SWTOR's generic raids or generic battlegrounds that can be found in any other MMO.

 

I can explain very easily why the game tanked after three months. For one, most people who bought the game were on a 3-month subscription. Secondly, those same folks got through all of the class stories they wanted to enjoy. Third, the class stories ended, which were the best parts of the game, and there was virtually no endgame at launch. EV was broken. KP was incomplete and broken. Ilum World PvP was a slideshow and broken. WZs were pointless as expertise was broken. The only thing left were dailies. James Ohlen even came out and admitted BioWare underestimated how fast people could consume content in an MMO. BioWare assumed it would take many months for players to get through all the class stories. The joke was on BioWare. We barely got any content for months and many merely did not resubscribe after their 3-month pass expired. That's what happened at launch.

 

Again, once folks completed the class story... why would anybody stick around? People wanted more class story and folks begged FOR MONTHS on the forums. We didn't get any story updates until RotHC, and that came in early 2013? For over a year SWTOR didn't add what people wanted and that's the main reason the game went F2P because their player base tanked. EV and KP were eventually fixed and plenty of raids and flashpoints have been added since then. If that's all people wanted, SWTOR would be doing great because BioWare has added a lot of that content. BioWare storytelling on the other hand? We hadn't seen that since launch and KotFE was an attempt on BioWare's part to get back to that.

[Aowin]

...

 

Well then I think you are missing one of the major points of KotFE. There is no Jedi Order or Sith Order anymore. Chapter 12 was trying to convey (albeit very poorly) that one cannot be either Light or Dark. There is a new path of understanding and that is something the Outlander apparently learned while training with Satele and Marr. I'm not saying I necessarily buy it, but this is no longer an issue of Jedi v Sith. This is the Alliance v the Eternal Empire and differences in Force philosophy are trivial as it stands.

 

Lol I find it ironic you claim I'm a "solo player." I've been playing MMOs for over a decade. My favorite MMO of all time is Star Wars Galaxies, and if you know anything about MMOs, you would know that game wasn't solo-friendly. On the contrary, I love MMOs and I love having to work as a team. I've done progression raiding. I've done ranked PvP. Heck, I was crowned the Emperor of Cyrodiil on my campaign when ESO first launched and that required coordination with hundreds of players. I've done all an MMO has to offer. That being said, trying to pass dailies off as "group content" is a pretty lame excuse for quality content. No, I don't miss the fact there aren't dailies on Zakuul. I wouldn't mind if we could at least spectate and help a friend in the solo story, but I could understand why BioWare might keep it separate for immersion purposes.

 

That's perfectly fine if you loved all of the class stories. From my experience, I have never seen anyone praise the Consular or Trooper stories, as I believe they are the worst in the game. The rest are pretty good with a few shining brighter than the others. Either way, I think most would agree that the storytelling in this game has been weaker than any of BioWare's single player RPGs, even the original eight class stories.

 

I agree that BioWare made a story that doesn't really make sense for non-force users. Really, the story only makes sense for the Jedi Knight as he/she has been fighting the emperor from the very beginning. That being said, we can provide constructive feedback hope that going forward BioWare will do a better job to create a story where it's not heavily dependent on the Force. I think that was definitely a misstep, but overall I believe the story is still very compelling and has potential.

 

I'm all for being able to play with others in the solo story. I'm not against that at all. In fact, I think it's very reasonable as the class stories accommodate that.

Edited August 10, 2016 by Aowin

[Keta]

The story had the potential to be amazing - all of it squandered in the desire for a Morality Monorail experience where only 1% of out choices actually mattered a damn.

 

My Sage would NEVER have allied with the Scions - he would rather have fought his way out of there killing every last one of them and would have exiled/imprisoned Senya for leading him into the trap in the first place.

 

My Jugg would NEVER have saved the refugees in the swamp, and would have killed Jorgen for trying to force him to do so.

 

For there to be meaningful story based choices there has to be more than one route between the Start Point and the End Point of each chapter, and in KotFE there simply wasn't more than one path... ...ever.

 

All through KotFE there is a choice of dialogue - but ALL dialogue options at a given point lead to EXACTLY the same outcome.

 

With the exception of one:

 

If we allowed the generator on Zakuul to explode Koth subsequently tries to steal the Gravestone and Lana informs us that we have not seen the last of Koth. So we have been informed Koth will not let things lay as they are, and we know he tried to steal the Gravestone and for some reason we a) didn't post guards, b) didn't change access codes that Koth already knew c) didn't task Lana and/or Theron (Intelligence and Espionage specialists by the way) to hire people to keep tabs on what Koth was doing.

 

Talk about basic storytelling 101 errors.

 

Shockingly amateurish writing.

 

 

All The Best

 

 

I more or less agree with you. My full ls Jedi shadow was annoyed at the scion alliance. The choices in re Arcann were illusory as well (he chose kill btw), you get the same results.

 

incidentally my full ls Jedi shadow started 16 without Koth. My full ls BH started 16 with Koth. Both lost the gravestone in the end. haven't replayed the chapter with anyone else to see if that is intended a bug or an unusual combination of "choices."

[Costello]

The OP reminded me of this thread : Biggest question: Why Knights of the Fallen Empire? and the perfect answer : They anticipated all the White Knights defending this largely garbage expansion?

 

That made me laugh and too true.

 

What makes me sad is that the devs will look at the title of this thread, not the content and pat themselves on the back and say how great its all gone.

 

Then blame the lack of players on it being summer and when EA pulls the plug cause the game isn't making enough, blame it on the players for not supporting them.

 

It wouldn't be so frustrating if there was some indication that the devs knew the issues, though I find my post about Kofte is moved to a sub folder of story and lore section that its a good bet no dev ever looks in cause I didn't have a title like how amazing I though this was.

[CloudCastle]

I don't agree. For me, the overall best expansion+game update was RotHC+2.x.

 

RotHC/2.x >> SoR/3.x > KotFE/4.x

 

RotHC 2.x came with new mini games, side stories, new open areas/planets, new reputation, new ops, new FPs, at least faction-specific story line etc. etc. It felt like an actual expansion.

 

I agree. ROTC was my favorite expansion. SOR was ok...I liked the Yavin part, but Rishi makes me want to climb up a wall for some reason. ROTC came with a giant planet with a unique geography to explore and two separate story-arcs. It wasn't perfect, but it came with more content that any other expansion has yet to see since, and I miss that. Seeker droid and macrobinoculars, dailies, Toborro's Courtyard (which I loved running.)

 

How about some well thought out, integrated, and well written side quests to make the the rest of the world feel more alive than it currently does.

 

It's called immersion and KotFE is as lacking in Immersion as it is in real choice - which is to say there's actually none of either.

 

How about a quest tracking down a potential leak on Odessen, or securing a vital water source; have the quest a) unlock based on rep with the Alliance Specialists and have the specifics of the quest depended on other choices. If we miffed off Koth maybe have one of his closest allies be a potential leak, maybe we killed someone on Zakuul collaterally and their family have hired Bounty Hunters.

 

There are literally hundreds of "exploration" mini-quests that could have been added to Zakuul and Odessen that would have a) made both planets seem a little less one-dimensional and b) acted as time filler. Have them reward the Alliance crates and we have a less repetitive grind to obtaining level 20 rep with the Alliance Specialists. Think of all the mails we get from different people on Odessen with "follow up fluff" from our actions in the Main Storyline. Why not have some of them trigger optional quests.

 

BW, just hire this guy, ok? I would have loved all your suggestions. KOTFE suffers because it does not feel like a real, open world. It is static, linear, confined. Every time I leave KOTFE and go back to the "regular" game, I want to announce, "and it was all a dream!" I want to have a reason to explore Zakuul and Odessen. I actually would have LIKED some dailies and basic side quests. Alliance missions are ok, but they all exist outside the KOTFE locations!

 

I have never seen anyone praise the Consular or Trooper stories, as I believe they are the worst in the game. The rest are pretty good with a few shining brighter than the others.

 

I enjoyed the trooper story and have played it 3 times. It has more replayability than the knight story, in my opinion. Of my three troopers, all of them were able to make conversation choices that expressed distinctly different personalities, and all of them saw some serious (and different!) consequences for their actions.

Edited August 10, 2016 by CloudCastle

[Aowin]

...

I'm a bit confused. All of SWTOR's planets do "not feel like a real, open world." They are all "static, linear, confined." That is how theme park MMOs develop environments. They build them for questing, not for immersion and to be lived in.

 

Take SWG as an example of an MMO I know personally. It was a sand box MMO and the planets were actually... planets. They were HUGE (Tatooine in SWG is probably larger than most of the planets combined in SWTOR) and you could build houses, cities, PvP, and do all sorts of crazy activities on planets. Not to mention, there were also plenty of points of interests with locations from the films.

 

By the way, did I mention none of it was instanced and it was all in the persistent open world? That is a true "real, open world." SWTOR has never had that and KotFE is just continuing the tradition of every theme park MMO, SWTOR included. Ironically, SWTOR is one of the most heavily-instanced MMOs I've ever played because of story considerations, so I think you are completely wrong about this point.

 

I'm glad you enjoyed the trooper story. I found it utterly boring and forgettable. Sadly, the only thing I remember is how large General Garza's rear was and wondering why it was on the screen half the time. That was the most memorable part of that story for me, which is really pathetic.

[gabigool]

 

I can explain very easily why the game tanked after three months. For one, most people who bought the game were on a 3-month subscription. Secondly, those same folks got through all of the class stories they wanted to enjoy. Third, the class stories ended, which were the best parts of the game, and there was virtually no endgame at launch. EV was broken. KP was incomplete and broken. Ilum World PvP was a slideshow and broken. WZs were pointless as expertise was broken. The only thing left were dailies. James Ohlen even came out and admitted BioWare underestimated how fast people could consume content in an MMO. BioWare assumed it would take many months for players to get through all the class stories. The joke was on BioWare. We barely got any content for months and many merely did not resubscribe after their 3-month pass expired. That's what happened at launch.

 

Again, once folks completed the class story... why would anybody stick around? People wanted more class story and folks begged FOR MONTHS on the forums. We didn't get any story updates until RotHC, and that came in early 2013? For over a year SWTOR didn't add what people wanted and that's the main reason the game went F2P because their player base tanked. EV and KP were eventually fixed and plenty of raids and flashpoints have been added since then. If that's all people wanted, SWTOR would be doing great because BioWare has added a lot of that content. BioWare storytelling on the other hand? We hadn't seen that since launch and KotFE was an attempt on BioWare's part to get back to that.

 

Not quite.

 

I know it would fit your idea better if this were true, but it's just not correct.

 

You're trying to imply people played through 8 class stories. I am willing to wager less than 2% of the players who unsubscribed in the first 12 months played all 8 class stories.

 

Probably less than that.

 

Bringing up the lack of meaningful endgame does not make your point. It makes mine. By your logic no one should have cared about Operations since there were 7 more class stories to play.

 

Yet they left. Why? Because they played through one or two classes, as fast as they humanly could, mashing their spacebars and got to 50 - then realized there was nothing to do that wasn't horribly broken, mistuned or just plain missing.

 

Perhaps the majority of players here today are content with story in place of actual gameplay. However I find it difficult to see anywhere in anything you have written that supports the belief that the majority of the first one million people that quit this game - people that were already subscribing - really looked at story as anything other than a bonus. They left because there was no game to play.

 

And for what it's worth, you can feel free to be an ostrich on this but I believe the simple fact that the developers created Denova instead of more single player story shows they saw it exactly as I do.

[Tsetso]

Not quite.

 

I know it would fit your idea better if this were true, but it's just not correct.

 

You're trying to imply people played through 8 class stories. I am willing to wager less than 2% of the players who unsubscribed in the first 12 months played all 8 class stories.

 

Probably less than that.

 

Bringing up the lack of meaningful endgame does not make your point. It makes mine. By your logic no one should have cared about Operations since there were 7 more class stories to play.

 

Yet they left. Why? Because they played through one or two classes, as fast as they humanly could, mashing their spacebars and got to 50 - then realized there was nothing to do that wasn't horribly broken, mistuned or just plain missing.

 

Perhaps the majority of players here today are content with story in place of actual gameplay. However I find it difficult to see anywhere in anything you have written that supports the belief that the majority of the first one million people that quit this game - people that were already subscribing - really looked at story as anything other than a bonus. They left because there was no game to play.

 

And for what it's worth, you can feel free to be an ostrich on this but I believe the simple fact that the developers created Denova instead of more single player story shows they saw it exactly as I do.

 

Don't try to argue with white knights. They would never admit BW being wrong

[Aowin]

...

Actually, you are assuming meaning that isn't there. I never stated most folks played all eight classes. In fact, I only played one class at launch: Jedi Knight. I wasn't really interested in the other classes and I'm sure more folks likely followed my line of thinking. That being said, my point still stands. You only failed to understand it.

 

People wanted a continuation of their class stories and BioWare made that very clear it wasn't going to happen anytime soon. Thus, folks did not resubscribe and they left until more story would be added. You assume people were playing for the mediocre raiding and PvP this game was offering, but that is an assumption and not based on any facts or hard evidence.

 

As I said before, there is nothing "special" about raiding or PvP in this game. Truth be told, there are other MMOs that do it better. What makes this game different is the BioWare Storytelling. Even though you may be the 00.01% of the population that didn't come to SWTOR for that, you are still in the minority.

 

I'm actually really confused as to why you play this game. WoW, Rift, Wildstar, and many other MMOs have far better raiding than SWTOR ever has. ESO, Darkfall Online, Black Desert, and many other MMOs have far better PvP than SWTOR ever will. The player housing in this game is limiting and restricted compared to MMOs that were made a decade ago. I'm just not really sure what is appealing about this game to you. I know why I play, because I love BioWare and Star Wars. I have no illusions that this is a very mediocre MMO once the BioWare and Star Wars label are removed from it. I'm not so sure why you think your opinion is that of the millions who unsubbed when the forums at the time made it pretty clear people wanted more story.

 

Alas, I'm under the impression I'm beating a dead horse as you are set on believing nobody here is for story and folks just want to raid and do dailies all day long.

[gabigool]

Alas, I'm under the impression I'm beating a dead horse as you are set on believing nobody here is for story and folks just want to raid and do dailies all day long.

 

I give up.

 

GLHF

[CloudCastle]

I'm a bit confused. All of SWTOR's planets do "not feel like a real, open world." They are all "static, linear, confined." That is how theme park MMOs develop environments. They build them for questing, not for immersion and to be lived in.

 

Take SWG as an example of an MMO I know personally. It was a sand box MMO and the planets were actually... planets. They were HUGE (Tatooine in SWG is probably larger than most of the planets combined in SWTOR) and you could build houses, cities, PvP, and do all sorts of crazy activities on planets. Not to mention, there were also plenty of points of interests with locations from the films.

 

By the way, did I mention none of it was instanced and it was all in the persistent open world? That is a true "real, open world." SWTOR has never had that and KotFE is just continuing the tradition of every theme park MMO, SWTOR included. Ironically, SWTOR is one of the most heavily-instanced MMOs I've ever played because of story considerations, so I think you are completely wrong about this point.

 

I'm glad you enjoyed the trooper story. I found it utterly boring and forgettable. Sadly, the only thing I remember is how large General Garza's rear was and wondering why it was on the screen half the time. That was the most memorable part of that story for me, which is really pathetic.

 

I never played SWG so I can't really comment on that. But in SWTOR, the problem is that so much of the KOTFE locations are instanced. Once you've done the story there, you can never go back inside. Wouldn't you like to be able to see more of those places? Right now, the only reason to return to Zakuul is to do the EC or to farm mats. I'd love to be able to participate more in the world, even after the chapters are done.

[Aowin]

...

 

My point is SWTOR is very linear, static, and not very open compared to many other MMOs, including its predecessor.

 

I agree with you actually. I'd like to see Zakuul have more of a purpose. To be quite honest, I believe BioWare is just starting with that planet. I wouldn't be surprised if we see a major expansion of where we can go with KotET. Of course, only time will tell. I just don't want to see a repeat of Makeb, Rishi, and Yavin 4 where they are nothing more than daily zones. I want a substantive purpose to return to these planets. Heck, even make it into another social hub like the Fleet or Capital worlds.

[Vodamin]

Is OP a troll?

[Bannidles]

I will admit, story wise, It was a good expansion. Better than anything WoW has ever done but aside from that, there was no new operations which was a huge letdown. If they had released even one op by now, I would give it 10/10

 

SWTOR is an MMO. You can't possibly give it universal acclaim if it completely leaves out new group content like raids or BGs which are definitive staples of a MMO.

 

 

So with that in mind, 5/10

 

But thank you anyways, I am still subbed and I do enjoy the story but let's not fool ourselves.

[Quraswren]

I can safely say that when I will see this somewhere on a game or whatever in the future, I will stay the f*@k out far far away from it. BW embarrassed themselves with KotFE and they are nowhere near their storytelling roots. Frankly in this game they were never even close. And they topped it with KotFE.

 

A promising Star Wars game is ruined, thank you BioWare(yeah actually it was always just promising, never fullfilled....).

I have to admit. Every time I think of BW and the past 16 chapters a Darth Vader meme comes to mind.

 

"You have failed me for the last time!"

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/67/676bd047d87e0b05d0d4b732af327c6f813411fcd722cecfb92f0a34694239d9.jpg

[Aowin]

...

Raids take time to develop, and KotFE is by far the most ambitious expansion they've ever done. I'm not exactly sure what the time table is on the next operation or two, but I wouldn't assume BioWare has left raiders behind.

 

It's funny because MMO used to be all about player-driven content. That didn't necessarily mean raids or battlegrounds, which were not always staples. That being said, SWTOR isn't a very player-driven game. Most MMOs aren't these days. We did get two new arenas and a warzone though. Star Fortress is also comparable to six flashpoints, albeit much of it is copy/paste. I'm sure more raids are coming, but they take time and BioWare is changing how it develops its content.

[Bannidles]

Raids take time to develop, and KotFE is by far the most ambitious expansion they've ever done. I'm not exactly sure what the time table is on the next operation or two, but I wouldn't assume BioWare has left raiders behind.

 

It's funny because MMO used to be all about player-driven content. That didn't necessarily mean raids or battlegrounds, which were not always staples. That being said, SWTOR isn't a very player-driven game. Most MMOs aren't these days. We did get two new arenas and a warzone though. Star Fortress is also comparable to six flashpoints, albeit much of it is copy/paste. I'm sure more raids are coming, but they take time and BioWare is changing how it develops its content.

 

Yes, MMos have changed direction but that was about 10 years ago. I'd say that raiding and group dungeons is pretty much the standard nowadays. There is no denying that SWTOR adopted the trinity-style group content and was following the WoW format. We can make excuses for Bioware all we want, but this priority change in development is a MASSIVE deviation from what long-time players should expect.

 

Star Fortress is HM solo content.

[ZETA_SCORPII]

Never do an expansion like this again without including raids and other endgame content! I won't sit through another one, I'd rather un-sub and wait for MMO stuff.

[DreadtechSavant]

I did enjoy the story myself. Unlike a lot of other I did feel at the end some choices did matter. Not always on things I/we players wanted. Such as no choice with HK as an example. However having watched a few of Dulfy's light/dark side choice Vids I can see where choices did make a difference. So overall yes really did like the story.

 

A few things aside from story (which I liked) I did not care for.

1. Final fight with Arcann. He had far to many stuns, knockdowns so much so it ruined it for me. Ok once you done it once and know what to do this probably wont seem so bad.

 

2. Don't like the way new special abilities were added or needed for the fight.

 

3. The way some cut scenes were done, such as when you talk to the specialists.

 

4. Lack of talks with new and original companions. Really needed more than the little we got.

 

5. Finally the biggest issue for me. New companions could not have any customizations. Now that all comps are the same stat-wise we really need something else or new to make companions wanted.

[Aowin]

...

 

Depends on the MMO. For AAA theme park MMOs? Definitely. The term "MMO" has become so broad that it encompasses so many more games than it did a decade ago.

 

Yes and no. BioWare doesn't really know what it wants SWTOR to be. At first, the game was all about the story. Then BioWare realized developing eight class stories wasn't feasible, so they tried to copy everybody else by just focusing on raids and dungeons like most MMOs. That didn't really work out too well, so now they are trying to go back to their roots of more of a story focus.

 

SWTOR has always suffered an identity crisis and inevitably somebody in the community will not be happy with the direction the game takes. Honestly, so many MMOs do raids and dungeons these days I think it's smart for SWTOR to try and distinguish itself from the pack. Again, I'm not saying they shouldn't do any raids or fps going forward, but clearly BioWare is trying to cater to a different audience than just the typical "WoW MMO players."

 

Half the flashpoints have a solo mode now. Star Fortress is no different. You can do it solo or with a group. It scales accordingly. It's the same thing.