Stealth nerf or unintended?

[Tsetso]

Hey folks,

 

I checked into this and you are correct, Treasure Hunting lockboxes are no longer dropping credits. This is an intended change to bring Treasure Hunting in line with other Crew Skills.

 

This was missed in the patch notes, which I will have corrected today. I apologize for any confusion this caused.

 

Thanks everyone.

 

-eric

 

Since this is happening for a second time in the last couple of months would you be willing to explain how the patch notes are assembled? Are you making them by hand or do you use some automated tool which gathers all the information from the submits in the source control system?

[Holocron]

Called it

 

You forgot the part where they "missed it" on purpose, and the part where they were hoping it could be slipped in without much notice.

Edited August 10, 2016 by Holocron

[Darevsool]

I don't believe they 'missed' it either. I think it was an omission done on purpose to postpone the inevitable negative feedback.

 

If you post, in advance, you're going to take something away, it will start a firestorm.

If you leave it out, and the patch/change goes through, people will post that they're upset, but it won't be at the same level as if you tell them about it in advance.

 

This behavior goes back YEARS. I can think of one from over 10 years ago that happened in Star Wars Galaxies with something eventually called 'crafting day' In that instance, they published a planned change to crafting mechanics, people went bonkers over it, they couldn't take it out of the patch so it went live for 1 day and the next day there was a patch to remove the change and put it back to 'normal' (which had long lasting negative effects also).

 

With the way forums work, from a publisher's point of view, it makes more sense to not mention certain types of changes beforehand.

[psandak]

There are less and less things to nerf. Less and less ways of making credits. Are any of the Crew Skills economically viable now?

 

How about actually playing the game instead of playing the system? You know doing things like heroics, and FPs, and dailies, and conquest, and easy ops. There is so much to DO that generates credits in this game

 

Or maybe working a crafting skill? YES, there is a front load investment of time and credits, but once you get the ball rolling you make that back hundreds of times over.

 

Or worst case, gather materials...maybe WHILE you are doing other things and sell them on the GTN.

 

Which is worse, believing that they decided not to put them in the patch notes, or that they lack the competence and quality control do make sure that the patch notes are complete?

 

In either case they did wrong, and people were bound to take notice of that, and make their opinions known.

 

Maybe negative feedback is what they need in order for them to get their act together and get things right in the future.

 

Call that toxic if you want, but all that I see is frustration on the part of people that are getting tired of a communication effort that has failed this game, and us as customers, and are willing to speak up and say so when they encounter situations like this one.

 

Let me know when you have a perfect 100% documentation record, because you know what? it's impossible.

 

That being said...

You guys really have to stop doing this. Mistakes can be made but these sort of mistakes should be rare. It's getting close to becoming a pattern and that would be a shame.

I agree with this sentiment.

[Andryah]

You guys are hilarious with all the angst, hate, and conspiracy theories.

 

Step back and think about it for a moment...... how in any way does the change being or not being in the patch notes affect anything? Anything at all.

 

Even a walnut can login and run a TH mission post patch and clearly see they changed it. And the fact that the issue of whether TH was giving out too many credits or not has been in circular discussion in the forum now for more then two months. So any of you feigning surprise are not to be taken seriously.

 

It's completely fine in my view to discuss, even argue, whether the change was warranted, or fair, or unfair, or whatever. But to play the "oh my they done it again, if they do it one more time I'm out!" nonsense or any variation thereof is just silly.

 

Fact: patch notes in MMOs rarely detail every change. and one persons "important change, notice needed!" is another persons "who gives a rats %$##.

 

Fact: whether a change is in the patch notes or not is a faux platform to argue. It simply does not matter.

 

Fact: when asked to clarify if it might be a bug.. guess what.. they confirmed it was not a bug.

 

Opinion: the usual suspects around the forum are just waiting with baited breath to gank the studio or any sleight, no matter how small.

 

Biggest mountain made from a mole hill in the forum since the first thread claiming that TH was ruining the economy.

 

And, no, I am not defending the studio, I am calling out absurdity of behaviors. Personally, I think they made a mistake putting in rich credits in TH... though I also think they should have just left it as is once they did, but I can understand why they would squelch something that is easily exploited by botting. I can also understand why it would take some time before they got around to it.. being as it was not game breaking or mission critical to game play, much less health of the economy. At the end of the day... MMOs change, for a variety of reasons, and often without notice. It is by no means unique to this MMO.

Edited August 10, 2016 by Andryah

[Jimthepocket]

How about actually playing the game instead of playing the system? You know doing things like heroics, and FPs, and dailies, and conquest, and easy ops. There is so much to DO that generates credits in this game

 

Or maybe working a crafting skill? YES, there is a front load investment of time and credits, but once you get the ball rolling you make that back hundreds of times over.

 

Or worst case, gather materials...maybe WHILE you are doing other things and sell them on the GTN.

 

Done all the heroics and FPs a dozen times, don't find grinding them particularly fun.

 

No interested in Ops or Conquest whatsoever, solo player.

 

Honestly I don't really know how crafting works and I doubt I have the time to sink into learning it.

 

Fact is, the more ways there are of making money the better. More variety = more player choice. I'd found something that worked for me and it's gone now. So I'm left with the choice of completely changing how I play this game or leaving.

 

That's...not optimal.

[Rhumple]

The positive I am taking from this is. Bots that did not see it in tha patch notes and did not stop macros, hopefully costing them a pile of credits

[rklontz]

And, no, I am not defending the studio, I am calling out absurdity of behaviors. Personally, I think they made a mistake putting in rich credits in TH... though I also think they should have just left it as is once they did, but I can understand why they would squelch something that is easily exploited by botting. I can also understand why it would take some time before they got around to it.. being as it was not game breaking or mission critical to game play, much less health of the economy. At the end of the day... MMOs change, for a variety of reasons, and often without notice. It is by no means unique to this MMO.

 

 

Actually you are defending the studio.

If it was not a deliberate action then can you please tell me how they can conveniently leave out yet another nerf to a players income from the patch notes?

Or better yet you name another current top 5 mmo that would impact the economy and neglect to put it in the patch notes? Better yet one that would accidentally forget several times a year?

 

I can personaly care a less if they nerf it or not I make way more from the mats from th than the credit rewards but to deny this wasn't deliberate and unprofessional is foolish.

[casirabit]

I believe it was simply an oversight and that they corrected said oversight when it was brought to their attention. Naturally, the entitlement crew has other ideas that differ from mine.

 

And how many times can they claim that? This is the second one to my knowledge. Whether or not it was an oversight they are not doing their job correctly and I know one mistake is something most employers would say don't do it again but then it happens again, what do you think most employers would do with this kind of mistake especially when it deals with something related to their customers and their playing?

 

Note: I don't use slicing that much but giving them a free pass on oversights is a bit much when this isn't the first time they did that and this is part of the reason they are losing subs. (Noticed I said part not the entire reason, in case you didn't catch part)

 

Let's see:

 

06.28.2016 , 04:58 PM | #127 This is the last staff post in this thread.

REPORT POST QUOTE

Hey folks,

 

I just wanted to pop into the thread and confirm that the Heroic Mission Rewards were reduced. This wasn't intended to be a "stealth change," but it was missed from the patch notes and we apologize for that. We are working on getting it added to the notes soon.

 

Sorry for any confusion.

 

-eric

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=886960&highlight=heroic+nerf&page=13

 

 

and now this one:

 

Today , 09:57 AM | #26 This is the last staff post in this thread.

REPORT POST QUOTE

Hey folks,

 

I checked into this and you are correct, Treasure Hunting lockboxes are no longer dropping credits. This is an intended change to bring Treasure Hunting in line with other Crew Skills.

 

This was missed in the patch notes, which I will have corrected today. I apologize for any confusion this caused.

 

Thanks everyone.

 

-eric

 

 

 

Now do you understand why people are upset. It is beginning to look like a habit from them.

Edited August 10, 2016 by casirabit

[Bruticis]

And how many times can they claim that? This is the second one to my knowledge. Whether or not it was an oversight they are not doing their job correctly and I know one mistake is something most employers would say don't do it again but then it happens again, what do you think most employers would do with this kind of mistake especially when it deals with something related to their customers and their playing?

 

Note: I don't use slicing that much but giving them a free pass on oversights is a bit much when this isn't the first time they did that and this is part of the reason they are losing subs. (Noticed I said part not the entire reason, in case you didn't catch part)

 

Let's see:

 

06.28.2016 , 04:58 PM | #127 This is the last staff post in this thread.

REPORT POST QUOTE

Hey folks,

 

I just wanted to pop into the thread and confirm that the Heroic Mission Rewards were reduced. This wasn't intended to be a "stealth change," but it was missed from the patch notes and we apologize for that. We are working on getting it added to the notes soon.

 

Sorry for any confusion.

 

-eric

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=886960&highlight=heroic+nerf&page=13

 

 

and now this one:

 

Today , 09:57 AM | #26 This is the last staff post in this thread.

REPORT POST QUOTE

Hey folks,

 

I checked into this and you are correct, Treasure Hunting lockboxes are no longer dropping credits. This is an intended change to bring Treasure Hunting in line with other Crew Skills.

 

This was missed in the patch notes, which I will have corrected today. I apologize for any confusion this caused.

 

Thanks everyone.

 

-eric

 

Wow, great point and nice fact finding, very hard hitting investigative journalism! Clearly someone should be fired right now for this colossal screw up. I'm appalled and disgusted someone could forget to add a trivial change in patch notes 90% of the user base doesn't read TWICE. No mercy, HR should call security RIGHT freaking now and get this person out of the building IMMEDIATELY. I seriously don't think I can sleep tonight knowing this incompetent employee is doing who knows what at Bioware Austin.

[rklontz]

Wow, great point and nice fact finding, very hard hitting investigative journalism! Clearly someone should be fired right now for this colossal screw up. I'm appalled and disgusted someone could forget to add a trivial change in patch notes 90% of the user base doesn't read TWICE. No mercy, HR should call security RIGHT freaking now and get this person out of the building IMMEDIATELY. I seriously don't think I can sleep tonight knowing this incompetent employee is doing who knows what at Bioware Austin.

 

While no one is asking for any one to be fired that is usually how the real world works. Pretty accurate description of typical business practices in the US actually

[midianlord]

[...]

 

Guess my only chance of making money now is to get some ludicrously overpriced rare item in the three crates a month my CC get me. Yay.

 

Do you seriously think that this isn't --all but explicitly, on which more anon-- their intention?

 

I'm quite sure they're trying to move everything into the cash shop that can be moved in order to force dependence on it.

 

I mean, really:

 

What do you think the real reasons behind that !!!NEW PACK-OPENING EXPERIENCE!!! are, anyway, especially after already removing all the old equipment vendors on Fleet?

 

And a lot of the rewards for this asinine DvL event being....packs?

 

We're being groomed here, and no two ways around it.

 

I imagine that when they get around to new actual MMO content, that it will have a pay-to-win, or at least "pay-for-advantage" component attached. Next logical step.

 

U BUY MOAR NAO.

Edited August 10, 2016 by midianlord

[Bruticis]

While no one is asking for any one to be fired that is usually how the real world works. Pretty accurate description of typical business practices in the US actually

 

I can assure you, it isn't. Maybe if you work in a non tech, low skill position such as a cashier or burger flipper.

[psandak]

Done all the heroics and FPs a dozen times, don't find grinding them particularly fun.

 

No interested in Ops or Conquest whatsoever, solo player.

 

Honestly I don't really know how crafting works and I doubt I have the time to sink into learning it.

 

Fact is, the more ways there are of making money the better. More variety = more player choice. I'd found something that worked for me and it's gone now. So I'm left with the choice of completely changing how I play this game or leaving.

 

That's...not optimal.

So if I am reading this right, all you do in SWTOR is run TH missions to make credits? Why are you still subbed?

(JOKING) are you a credits spammer?

 

Or are you just an alt-aholic; creating a character, doing the story, keep or delete, rinse and repeat? If this is the case, then you should be doing OK with credits because I just leveled a LvD character almost strictly with just story (I did the Coruscant heroics, the intro to WZs mission, and a handful of TFPs with my guild), and that character made 750k.

[midianlord]

Hey folks,

 

I checked into this and you are correct, Treasure Hunting lockboxes are no longer dropping credits. This is an intended change to bring Treasure Hunting in line with other Crew Skills.

 

This was missed in the patch notes, which I will have corrected today. I apologize for any confusion this caused.

 

Thanks everyone.

 

-eric

 

Please stop insulting our intelligence.

 

That excuse worked so well last time, can you at least tell your handlers to try harder this/next time?

 

Huggles, <3ulots, kthxbai.

Edited August 10, 2016 by midianlord

[DenariusJay]

I really don't get the concept of "click 1 button and wait for credits" its not even playing the game really? You click a button. Wait 10 min. Get credits. Click a button, wait 10 min, get credits. Huh? Atleast gathering the crates or slice nodes you are out and about in the world map doing something, not so with this - you stand in your SH and click a button and get a reward. Zero effort. Since launch I never understood why they implemented this into the game.

[Rolodome]

What possible motivation do you shrill conspiracy theorists think the devs have for intentionally leaving these things out of the patch notes? Do you really think if they had intentional left them out of the patch notes they would think they could get one over on us and no one on this toxic cess pool wasn't going to come unglued and start 100 threads about the nerf? You don't think one single dev would mention to the others that surely someone will notice this nerf and make a thread? Some of you people live in the most delusional world.

Eh, the last time this happened (the heroic credit nerf) I'm pretty sure I jumped to their defense, saying more or less what you're saying (albeit without the nastiness)... that they aren't stupid enough to think they can just pass it off.

 

But now, with it happening twice in a row, it does occur to me that not everyone pays attention that well. And miffing a few forumites may not matter that much to them, if they have reasons for doing it silently at first. What motivations could they have for being silent about it? Well, one that comes to mind is bots... perhaps by being silent about it initially, they were hoping that bots would log in and do their normal treasure hunting farm routine and end up killing their credits overall because they're bots and no one is watching them closely, and with the credit thing nerfed, they'd end up losing credits rather than gaining them.

 

This isn't so much a reason for the heroic payout silence, since it's a completely different scenario, but it's a possible motivation for being silent at first about this one.

 

Would they actually do something like that? I don't know. But I guess my point is, having thought about it more, there are reasons one could come up with that are not a huge stretch.

[Mikniff]

Perhaps this was left out of the patch notes initially to see the logs on who was still farming them? A farmer sets up his bot and walks away would not notice there was no credits from the cases until he got back hours later. While those who farm them as they play would notice pretty damn quick and probably stop when they see lockbox missions are a loss of credits unless you get lucky with a comp gift to sell on gtn. Not really the best theory. Edited August 10, 2016 by Mikniff

[sammywalker]

"Missed" just like the heroic credit nerf ?

 

Ill give you the benefit of the doubt with this one and just assume it was coincidence that you forgot to happen to add patch notes to two things which happen to include nerfs to the economy... the third one however is going to be a out.

 

Get slicing if you want credits, they fixed the heroic nerf so be happy

[rklontz]

I can assure you, it isn't. Maybe if you work in a non tech, low skill position such as a cashier or burger flipper.

 

Good ahead and under perform in your job on a consistent basis and see how long you stay employed or maintain your current position within the company. Especially if you work in in the tech industry.

Edited August 10, 2016 by rklontz

[josephxp]

Hey folks,

 

I checked into this and you are correct, Treasure Hunting lockboxes are no longer dropping credits. This is an intended change to bring Treasure Hunting in line with other Crew Skills.

 

This was missed in the patch notes, which I will have corrected today. I apologize for any confusion this caused.

 

Thanks everyone.

 

-eric

 

Well when you have such a huge patch that was delayed and other bug fixes, meh i can see it happening.

 

Plus treasure hunting just gives credit spammer more credits to sell, thats the real problem, so least we have the heroic payout back.

[AngFour]

I really don't get the concept of "click 1 button and wait for credits" its not even playing the game really? You click a button. Wait 10 min. Get credits. Click a button, wait 10 min, get credits. Huh? Atleast gathering the crates or slice nodes you are out and about in the world map doing something, not so with this - you stand in your SH and click a button and get a reward. Zero effort. Since launch I never understood why they implemented this into the game.

 

This is me personally, but TH also grants mats needed for crafting. However, obviously, the top tier augments and such is where the money is at. So, seeing as my newest characters have nothing better to do while going through their story, I make them Treasure Hunters (and Slicers) so they can eventually get top tier mats to supply my sweatshop... er, I mean my main characters who can craft said items. But the lower level mats are kind of useless, so instead of getting those, I have my comps get companion gifts and lockboxes. Companion gifts are universally useful and lockboxes essentially refund with a slight profit all while getting the TH skill up.

 

So not EVERYONE who uses the TH skill are people who just sit in their SH all day doing nothing

 

And while the items dropped from lockboxes can be sold for maybe a small profit, it's a hit to my character's profit when the companion fails the mission. With no credits from previous lockboxes to make up the difference, I'll sometimes work at a loss.

 

Overall, it's not that big of a deal. I've got enough money. But it's nice to have my newer characters financially self sufficient without needing to be twinked by my mains.

 

I've said this before, I don't care if they nerfed it, to be honest. I just wanted to point out that there are other uses for the TH skill than JUST getting lockboxes

[Bruticis]

Good ahead and under perform in your job on a consistent basis and see how long you stay employed or maintain your current position within the company. Especially if you work in in the tech industry.

 

Twice isn't a consistent basis at all.

[Jimthepocket]

So if I am reading this right, all you do in SWTOR is run TH missions to make credits? Why are you still subbed?

(JOKING) are you a credits spammer?

 

Or are you just an alt-aholic; creating a character, doing the story, keep or delete, rinse and repeat? If this is the case, then you should be doing OK with credits because I just leveled a LvD character almost strictly with just story (I did the Coruscant heroics, the intro to WZs mission, and a handful of TFPs with my guild), and that character made 750k.

 

I've not done all the class stories yet, mostly run TH to pay my way as I work through them and make a nice bit of profit that I've been using to get 220's for my main. Don't really have the time to blaze through everything so I appreciate I'm probably making slower progress than a lot of people.

 

I guess I liked TH because it was unintrusive. I could just dispatch guys every ten minutes then turn my mind back to the storyline for a nice bit of escapism.

 

I'm going to look into crafting, but TBH I dunno if I will stay subbed once I've finished all the storyline stuff. Probably will depend on what KotET ends up looking like.

Edited August 10, 2016 by Jimthepocket

[Sarova]

This is me personally, but TH also grants mats needed for crafting. However, obviously, the top tier augments and such is where the money is at. So, seeing as my newest characters have nothing better to do while going through their story, I make them Treasure Hunters (and Slicers) so they can eventually get top tier mats to supply my sweatshop... er, I mean my main characters who can craft said items. But the lower level mats are kind of useless, so instead of getting those, I have my comps get companion gifts and lockboxes. Companion gifts are universally useful and lockboxes essentially refund with a slight profit all while getting the TH skill up.

This is how I used TH. They went too far the other way though - it now costs more to send a companion on a TH lockbox run than that tat that you get from it is worth, so no point in me levelling it on any new alts now. Overall, however if they had proof that the creditsellers were using it, then anything that rids me of their millions of spam mails is worth the nerf.