Cartel Market is KILLING THE GAME

[casirabit]

The original SWG had the best systems to date I have ever seen for crafting, materials gathering, class system (No class, Skill point based). The loot system was exciting! I would wonder the wilds just hunting things because you had a chance to get amazing loot off anything....which kept me interested in the simplest things.

 

Crafting could net you the best gear in the game and make you rich if you put in the time and effort....

 

Hunting and skinning, rare loot drops, crafting, all tied together.....and since the crafted gear was relevant it also tied into combat, crazy concept I know..................

 

SWToR is disjointed....it's not half the game SWG was.... I would trade in the entire KOTFE expansion just for the SWG creature handler system alone......

 

Yes I am aware it was unbalanced and buggy...I loved SWG for its strengths which were many.

 

SWToR has done many things right, focusing all their attention to forming most new systems around the CM is not one of them....

 

Yes and the one I am playing on is the NGE version but there are people around and they seem to be a very nice group. I have already leveled my ent and working on getting stuff started for my domestic trader.

[casirabit]

I hate seeing a post from you like this. You're one of the few bright spots on this forum Casi...we need more players like you, not less.

 

Thanks Tux, it nice to hear compliments from time to time.

[aceavenger]

Yes, that is true, but the thing is that before it wasnt so, before the game was driven by MMO content. Yes, might not have been that profitable, but that was up to the devs to realize why it was so. Operations were too hard for common people and in the end, Devs leanred that the only thing ppl want is to play dress-up

 

However, its a question of time till the few ppl that keep funding the game through CM purchases will grow tired of it and leave too.

 

Yes and before the game was going broke. People leaving in droves, and they needed to keep the game afloat. The CM did just that. Sorry I say let it stay.

[Thoronmir]

Regardless how one views the CM, we can all agree that the CM keeps the doors open. Without it, I question the viability of SWTOR as a business enterprise. Which is, of course, it's primary function. We players sometimes get that backwards. Sometimes, we think that a game's highest purpose is to entertain us, and profitability is a secondary concern. Of course, we're wrong when we believe profits should be subordinated to our entertainment.

 

Regardless how we got here, here we are. It no longer matters whether one believes that the Cartel Market saved or doomed the game. The undeniable fact today is that SWTOR cannot exist without it. When I say it cannot exist, I concede that subscription fees may generate enough revenue to cover the cost of keeping the game active. As others have noted, it's not as if all the CM revenue is being channeled back into SWTOR. But if this game becomes a zero-sum proposition, why would EA/BW bother with it? Just to edify our love of Star Wars? Unlikely. They need profits to justify the game. And, for good or ill, those profits come from the Cartel Market.

 

So, while this thread's title perhaps should be changed to "Cartel Market is Making SWTOR a Game I Don't Want to Play" (a very reasonable sentiment), the CM is not killing the game. It's the one thing keeping SWTOR alive. We can bemoan why that is true. Sure, more <insert whatever you like about SWTOR> might have changed the current situation. More or better <insert whatever players who left liked about SWTOR> might have resulted in a completely different player population today. And, certainly, had EA/BW done a better job in avoiding <insert whatever you believe caused the crisis early in SWTOR's life and, thus, necessitated introduction of the CM> was probably the preferred path to take.

 

At this point, there seems to be no feasible alternative to the Cartel Market. Removing that revenue with the hope that the financial bind would somehow lead to the improvements players believe would allow SWTOR to flourish without the CM seems like a poor business strategy. And SWTOR is, first and foremost, a business.

 

TLDR: An erudite and reasoned statement of why we're all screwed.

Edited August 5, 2016 by Thoronmir

[Soljin]

Yes and before the game was going broke. People leaving in droves, and they needed to keep the game afloat. The CM did just that. Sorry I say let it stay.

 

Ok, let it stay...but they need to stop double dipping. They have the CM and they still have a subscription model...but they treat the game like a full F2P model....

 

They are not adding content for the subscription model portion to a degree that is even near acceptable, all we have now is a vague promise.

 

Every solution they come up with seems to somehow be centered around the CM....

 

No new content or fixes....

 

Somehow they release new packs like clockwork.........

 

I say shut down the CM and close this thing down and start over...... Bioware you have missed the point completely.

[DreadtechSavant]

Disagree OP. BTW you are responsible for what you buy, not what others buy. You are free to believe what you want but I don't think CM is killing the game.

 

So..... No sorry but I will buy what I want, when I want and this is nothing to do with you.

Edited August 5, 2016 by DreadtechSavant

[Soljin]

My Bioware employee number is 5678209 and this game is perfect! I love this game lots and forever!

 

fixed.

[Andryah]

So, while this thread's title perhaps should be changed to "Cartel Market is Making SWTOR a Game I Don't Want to Play" (a very reasonable sentiment), the CM is not killing the game. It's the one thing keeping SWTOR alive. We can bemoan why that is true. Sure, more <insert whatever you like about SWTOR> might have changed the current situation. More or better <insert whatever players who left liked about SWTOR> might have resulted in a completely different player population today. And, certainly, had EA/BW done a better job in avoiding <insert whatever you believe caused the crisis early in SWTOR's life and, thus, necessitated introduction of the CM> was probably the preferred path to take.

 

Exactly.

 

People need to get a grip. MMOs launched in the last 6 years have proven time and time again that the sub-only business model no longer works. It only continues to work for older MMOs like WoW because they can keep redrawing on their past active player base with some degree of player cycle success. The only reason it works for FF14 is largely for the same reason, though slightly differently.. they have pull through from their prior MMOs on the same theme. EVE survives because it has carved out a powerful niche and has no direct competition. All the rest.. tried, failed, adjusted to the changes in the market.

 

People also need to grasp the fact that just because there is something they dislike about SWTOR... always blaming it on the CM destroys your credibility. The people working on CM content are not the people who do raids or other group content. Hence, much of the forum CM bashing is based on misplaced expression of frustrations with the game in other areas.

 

IMO, people should be happy the CM is as successful with players as it is, and that it is a completely optional feature since no player need ever touch it in order to progress and play SWTOR. It could be far worse.. they could have gone with a series of incremental pay walls gating different content which is what some MMOs choose to do.

Edited August 5, 2016 by Andryah

[Soljin]

Forget it........There is no hope for this game or half its player base...they like getting hosed. Edited August 5, 2016 by Soljin

[BarrinMarshall]

It's not the presence of the Cartel Market killing the game, it's the fact that most of the money it makes never gets reinvested in the game that is the problem.

 

They rake in tons of $ every time they drop a new pack, and yet they are running the game on a skeleton dev crew, can't seem to do anything for more than "one area of the game/play style" at a time, and bugs go unfixed for months or even years at a time.

 

No one's gonna want to invest a whole lot of time or money in a game that isn't even getting invested in for the future by the makers themselves.

 

This sums it up perfectly.

[Andryah]

This sums it up perfectly.

 

Except it is speculation presented as fact. I accept that what you quoted fits your personal narrative about the game, but it lacks any sense of business objectivity.

 

Nobody actually knows the exact operations budget used by the studio, but what we do know is that in the MMO business you scale your operations cost to be in sync with your revenue (minus a contribution margin in the form of profit to the business as a whole). And if you want to sustain revenue and profit, then there is a pragmatic line for where you set your operations budget for any given fiscal year. This is not unique to MMOs, it's basic business 101.

 

Now, if you wish to prosecute the game for spending it's operation budget on areas of the game you personally dislike and disagree with.. fine. But be honest about it.

 

Clearly they spent a large portion of their budget shifting the format of the game to be more solo friendly in 4.0. And clearly some of that cost was in the form of revamping some of the core game to make it more flexible or adaptable to future content direction (which I see as a one time sunk cost). Some people are OK with this, and some are not. What matters at this point is what they do with 5.0. IF we see more of the same as 4.0... then it is fair to conclude they are making their operations numbers and hence enough players (not all, just enough) to make the direction of effort a success for the studio. Which in no way means that the direction of the game works for everyone.... only that it is successful and merits continuation at some level. Also, they have a history of shifting direction of content production with each new expac.. so personally, I will wait to see what they do with 5.0 before attempting to pan and deride the studio.

Edited August 5, 2016 by Andryah

[azudelphi]

Forget it........There is no hope for this game or half its player base...they like getting hosed.

What exactly did they say that was untrue?

 

The CM suffers "success" for a few reasons...

First, modeling and texturing are far simpler than overall content creation. You don't have to combat test a new she'll of armor or a mount or a pet. Does it activate or display correctly? If yes, push it live. If major "no" fix it. If minor "no" push it live lol

Secondly, a member of staff who can create assets is fairly plug and play.

Third, there are people who like to gamble.

Fourth, there are people who don't like to gamble and there are CM items with safe credit exchange.

Fifth, it allows people who don't pay the subscription fee to still have certain accesses as one time payments. This appeals to the new wave of MMO players.

 

So Cartel market revenue isn't inherently bad. There is fair reason to be annoyed at the lack of new repeatable content, but I don't believe the CM or the staff behind it are truly at fault for that discontent.

[DirtyDiggler]

Yes, that is true, but the thing is that before it wasnt so, before the game was driven by MMO content. Yes, might not have been that profitable, but that was up to the devs to realize why it was so. Operations were too hard for common people and in the end, Devs leanred that the only thing ppl want is to play dress-up

 

However, its a question of time till the few ppl that keep funding the game through CM purchases will grow tired of it and leave too.

 

MMOs are dying, the only mmorpg worth playing is sandbox mmos and even then they are niche. This game has been keep alive on the name, had it not been for star wars this MMO would of died 4 years ago...

[gabigool]

Except it is speculation presented as fact. I accept that what you quoted fits your personal narrative about the game, but it lacks any sense of business objectivity.

 

As opposed to this:

 

People need to get a grip. MMOs launched in the last 6 years have proven time and time again that the sub-only business model no longer works.

 

Reality is this game did an abysmal job of supporting its MMO aspects. From day one. And the MMO players left in droves. Those players are paying a subscription right now for another product.

 

The idea this game could not have sustained a successful subscription model is ludicrous. It simply required attention to the areas it's subscribers were willing to pay for.

 

You cannot look at cases where a subscription model was executed horribly like, say swtor or W*, and make the sweeping statement that subscription models are defunct. There are plenty of people paying subscriptions. They are simply not paying BioWare for them.

 

It's like saying most restaurants fail so the restaurant model is dead.

[Andryah]

You cannot look at cases where a subscription model was executed horribly like, say swtor or W*, and make the sweeping statement that subscription models are defunct. There are plenty of people paying subscriptions. They are simply not paying BioWare for them.

 

Other then the specific cases I presented as exceptions, and basis for exception, (which you completely ignored) which MMO launched in the last 6-7 years is running successfully as a sub only business?

 

Once again, people need to get a grip and realize that players tastes and desires have changed such that the sub only MMO business model simply does not work any more. I'm not speculating here... I am simply presenting what is/has happened with MMOs over the last 6-7 years in the market. And no.. it's not about them putting out "bad" or "unacceptable" content... as that has been a given since MMOs launched. There are always critics and haters of every MMO ever made.

 

Now.. not liking what a particular MMO does (as appears to be the case with you and this MMO) in terms of content is a perfectly reasonable position to take, if presented with reasonable objectivity. Not all MMOs are right for all players. But to blame the CM in this MMO as a root cause, or declaring a sub-only business model = only way to succeed with content updates, is completely disingenuous and fantasy.

 

What amaze me to this day is the number of people who will continue to subscribe to an MMO that does not meet their needs, and who constantly attack the studio and the game in some lame hope that it will force the studio to conform to their personal wants/needs.

 

Play an MMO because you like it, and play "as is" (which is how it is provided), or don't. But to play and hate makes absolutely zero sense.

Edited August 5, 2016 by Andryah

[Soljin]

Other then the specific cases I presented as exceptions, and basis for exception, (which you completely ignored) which MMO launched in the last 6-7 years is running successfully as a sub only business?

 

Once again, people need to get a grip and realize that players tastes and desires have changed such that the sub only MMO business model simply does not work any more. I'm not speculating here... I am simply presenting what is/has happened with MMOs over the last 6-7 years in the market. And no.. it's not about them putting out "bad" or "unacceptable" content... as that has been a given since MMOs launched. There are always critics and haters of every MMO ever made.

 

Now.. not liking what a particular MMO does (as appears to be the case with you and this MMO) in terms of content is a perfectly reasonable position to take, if presented with reasonable objectivity. Not all MMOs are right for all players. But to blame the CM in this MMO as a root cause, or declaring a sub-only business model = only way to succeed with content updates, is completely disingenuous and fantasy.

 

What amaze me to this day is the number of people who will continue to subscribe to an MMO that does not meet their needs, and who constantly attack the studio and the game in some lame hope that it will force the studio to conform to their personal wants/needs.

 

Play an MMO because you like it, and play "as is" (which is how it is provided), or don't. But to play and hate makes absolutely zero sense.

 

Funniest part of the current debate is that the OP was not suggesting the CM is failing financially, yet people are arguing its success.....

 

When saying "the CM is killing this game" I believe the intent is that Bioware appears to be prioritizing CM related design over all else...that is the visible example, they react to CM issues immediately but wait until the next planned patch to rectify content issues.....

 

We have rumors of coming content for "endgame" players...but that is all. CM adjustments and regular updates are loud clear and.....very regular.

 

So when I read "The CM is killing this game" how I interpret that is.... The CM is to blame for the game currently sitting in the SUX category.

 

Why add interesting loot? It will detract from CM sales...not on the agenda.

When you add new gear "Because of the whiners" make sure its bland that way our CM skins are still valued.

Make all the crafted gear bland as well.....because you know why

 

If you don't think the CM is behind why this game is a drag....Nothing to do with profit but all to do with boring...then cool! Have fun doing...well whatever it is you like about the game.

 

People play and hate because this is a Star Wars IP and it's the only one of its kind and always will be until it goes away.... If you want Star Wars then you play old games, get your face shot off in Battlefront or come here....that's it.

 

If it were not for the Star Wars IP I would have dogged this game for good when I left the first time 6 months or so after launch....that's one reason why people play and hate....no other Star Wars options that fit their play style AKA I don't like shooters..

[Tsetso]

If you don't think the CM is behind why this game is a drag....Nothing to do with profit but all to do with boring...then cool! Have fun doing...well whatever it is you like about the game.

 

Hey, don't be so negative. We have a new cool way of opening packs

[Soljin]

Hey, don't be so negative. We have a new cool way of opening packs

 

lol..yes we are!

[Suplax]

Just for your information, the Cartel Market is one of the main reasons why the game is going down the drain. Please helps us to change the focus of the game back towards MMO aspects and stop buying stuff from CM!!

 

This game is horrible for Raid and pvp content , but for single player storyis the best I've ever played in a MMO.

Choices , voice acting , lots of sidequests and customization.

 

I buy a few hypercrates every month , the game is fine for me at it is.

[gabigool]

Other then the specific cases I presented as exceptions, and basis for exception, (which you completely ignored) which MMO launched in the last 6-7 years is running successfully as a sub only business?

 

That even one currently exists indicates the model is sustainable. Period. Launch date is irrelevant. I'm not sure why you consider the things I've ignored as relevant. They are not. This game had the subscribers.

 

Once again, people need to get a grip and realize that players tastes and desires have changed such that the sub only MMO business model simply does not work any more. I'm not speculating here...

 

By your logic, players tastes happened to change during the first year this game was live. Because that's when they lost a million subscriptions. You can feel free to argue that the majority of them unsubscribed because their tastes changed regarding subscription models. From here that sounds more like rationalization.

 

Now.. not liking what a particular MMO does (as appears to be the case with you and this MMO) in terms of content is a perfectly reasonable position to take, if presented with reasonable objectivity. Not all MMOs are right for all players. But to blame the CM in this MMO as a root cause, or declaring a sub-only business model = only way to succeed with content updates, is completely disingenuous and fantasy.

 

What amaze me to this day is the number of people who will continue to subscribe to an MMO that does not meet their needs, and who constantly attack the studio and the game in some lame hope that it will force the studio to conform to their personal wants/needs.

 

Play an MMO because you like it, and play "as is" (which is how it is provided), or don't. But to play and hate makes absolutely zero sense.

 

I have not blamed the CM on anything. I am pointing out your opinions-presented-as-facts such as "the reason we currently rely on the CM for revenue is the natural state of the universe" and "ANY subscription model was clearly pre-determined to fail" are nothing more than your opinions. And ones I disagree with. Strongly.

 

And why you are even suggesting anyone has stated a sub only model = only way to succeed? You understand you are making things up, right?

 

I believe the developers let major pillars of this game atrophy. I believe many players quit directly because of it. They did not quit because they felt a subscription model was dead or because they went to a MOBA or a console or whatever else people state. They left because PvP in this game was broken. They left because endgame PvE in this game was broken. They are paying a subscription somewhere else right now.

 

You cannot claim the CM reliance was inevitable without the caveat that BW did not support major aspects of this game that subscribers were led to believe would be a part of it. I do not know if a different path would have led to a different result. I believe it might have. But you do not know either. That is a certainty.

 

I enjoy playing this game very much. Yet I believe this game can (and should) be much better than it is. I'm sorry such a simple concept amazes you, but those two concepts are not mutually exclusive. I have been very consistent in everything I've posted. I am not concerned with how you choose to interpret it, but do not misrepresent it.

Edited August 5, 2016 by gabigool

[OlBuzzard]

There's a lot that could be said regarding this matter however, my own observations (and consequently my own personal opinions ) are as follows:

1. CM is not breaking the game. there are clear cut benefits for just about everyone who chooses to take advantage of the system in place. Could it be better ? Yes. There are some items that many players (outfits of various sorts and equipment ) would like to see on a more frequent basis. For those who do not like buying items via CM then simply avoid doing so.

Debating whether or not everything should be "earned" as a drop is simply not an argument that stands as much as it once did. Gaming in general has changed (like it or not). Soooo (again just my opinion) let's make the best of it and see how to improve the CM.

 

2. Profits from the game: whether from the CM or subs or other sources it is to everyone's benefit for an appropriate amount of that to go back into the game development ( staff members, hardware, etc, etc.) This helps EVERYONE ! It's unfortunate that some times this does not happen and usually negative results follow.

WE do not know what is taking place for certain. Throwing really bad innuendo at those who hold the purse strings and those who REALLY do know the facts is not in our ( the players ) best interest.

 

3. Game bugs and fixes: holy hot topic Batman !! Yeah .. the game really needs some help here! Sooo for whatever it's worth there needs to be some stuff addressed here !

 

There's other things we will mention later ... but for now let's see what shakes out!

[BrotherJohn]

the peeps that blindly defend the CM just dont get it. while the game makes money from the CM because really people are just silly wasting money on the CM it does bring in the cash for a game that is more or less dead.

 

what the CM has done is create a situation where BW now has got to go all in for the CM and nothing else because at this point the game has been so poorly managed that I really am not sure any amount of content and bug fixing will bring back people and for that matter keep people new long term and subbed.

 

SO

 

BW has failed hugely to produce a GAME, but has successfully shown you can milk the hell out of stupid people for cash through nickle and dime game maintenance.

[Tsetso]

 

BW has failed hugely to produce a GAME, but has successfully shown you can milk the hell out of stupid people for cash through nickle and dime game maintenance.

 

What they are actually doing is milking a bull

[OlBuzzard]

the peeps that blindly defend the CM just dont get it. while the game makes money from the CM because really people are just silly wasting money on the CM it does bring in the cash for a game that is more or less dead.

 

what the CM has done is create a situation where BW now has got to go all in for the CM and nothing else because at this point the game has been so poorly managed that I really am not sure any amount of content and bug fixing will bring back people and for that matter keep people new long term and subbed.

 

SO

 

BW has failed hugely to produce a GAME, but has successfully shown you can milk the hell out of stupid people for cash through nickle and dime game maintenance.

 

1. Unlikely they have failed to produce a game

2. Not everyone spends money in the context you have just described. A few perhaps ... but not everyone! (probably not most). It is unlikely you have specific information, data or other facts to indicate what specific players send in the way of CC annually. Therefore, your statements are more than like strictly conjecture.

 

The rest of your commentary is largely one of personal dissatisfaction. This is therefore limited to the scope of your own point of view.

[Soljin]

1. Unlikely they have failed to produce a game

2. Not everyone spends money in the context you have just described. A few perhaps ... but not everyone! (probably not most). It is unlikely you have specific information, data or other facts to indicate what specific players send in the way of CC annually. Therefore, your statements are more than like strictly conjecture.

 

The rest of your commentary is largely one of personal dissatisfaction. This is therefore limited to the scope of your own point of view.

 

Wouldn't happen to be a Count Dooku fan possibly?

 

Ok, here is the deal, I'm not going to dig up the stats but I challenge folks to go back and compare instances where Bioware Hot patched the game the day after the weekly server update. Out of those compare how many were CM fixes opposed to content fixes.

 

Next consider how many times content fixes were pushed to the following update rather than being hot patched.

 

I'm starting to understand that folks are not wise to whats going on. Just look at the updates they tell the story. CM is getting updated, new content is focused on the CM, I'm willing to consider this trend will continue on to the supposed "new content" coming out next fall.

 

MMO's have not changed because peoples tastes have changed....MMO's have changed because design decisions are being affected by corporations like EA....MMO's are not being designed by gamer's anymore, they are being designed by bean counters by way of influence.....

 

Unless the consumers make this trend unprofitable it will get worse....and from what I can see that is pretty much a lock.

 

Years from now if you find yourself talking about when games were designed by gamer's for gamer's and how fun they were.... don't forget to remember your participation in the down fall.....

Edited August 5, 2016 by Soljin