Cartel Market is KILLING THE GAME

[psandak]

Wouldn't happen to be a Count Dooku fan possibly?

 

Ok, here is the deal, I'm not going to dig up the stats but I challenge folks to go back and compare instances where Bioware Hot patched the game the day after the weekly server update. Out of those compare how many were CM fixes opposed to content fixes.

 

Next consider how many times content fixes were pushed to the following update rather than being hot patched.

 

There is an inherent bias in the research you suggest: chances are content fixes simply take longer to figure out than CM fixes.

 

That being said, I can recall a few recent content hot fixes: early new chapters of KotFE had significant issues. Some took to the next week to correct, but some were corrected within a couple of days.

 

What I am trying to point out is that the CM is drawing so much energy from Bioware that content is and will further suffer as a result.

 

What I am getting from opposing responses is generally not related....

 

most opposing responses are in regards to how the market impacts that individual....

 

"I don't have a problem with the CM"

 

"I don't buy stuff very often from the CM"

 

I'm not trying to shut the CM down, What I do want is for the CM to become a secondary priority to designing fun and deep game content......

 

Another bias... Deep game content takes a LOT more time than creating CM stuff. And the CM designers are not the same as the content designers. Could they shuffle some CM designers into content design? That really depends on whether or not CM designers are qualified content designers. Could they let go of CM designers and hire content designers? Sure they could but what is the salary difference between the two? For all we know it would take dismissing 5 CM designers to hire 1 content designer.

 

All I am saying is that we the populous do not have ALL THE FACTS. We are speculating that all Bioware would have to do is transition some CM positions to content and content would come out better and a lot faster. I respectfully disagree with that supposition.

[Transcendent]

The DvL event brings it home very clearly. They took age old content and put it in a format so people can gain rewards in game that come from the Cartel Market. If that doesn't tell you there is a problem, then I don't know what will.

 

It means there are more man hours / developer hours freely available in the Cartel Market team. It doesn't however mean that there are not other developers working in the background on upcoming content that is yet to be released / mentioned.

 

Or look at it a different way, who has more time available? The developer who reskins stuff, or the developer who is creating a new in-game area?

 

It's clear that the Cartel Market team has a lot of available man hours, due to the release cycles they run with, in part that is probably due to the revenue they produce, which in turn gives them a healthy slice of the budget to continue to do that and support the overall game.

 

Do I like that there is more content coming from the Cartel Market team than there seemingly is from the other development teams? No. Absolutely not. However let me be clear on my view, they have the easier job (I don't mean less pressure here due to deadlines) which means faster production cycles and releases than the other areas of content within the game.

 

It is however quite clear that the revenues from the Cartel Market need to be better balanced between increasing the development teams budgets and pure profit generation.

[casirabit]

SUBSCRIBERS get new content every month. Those expansion chapters? F2Pers don't get to play em. That's monthly content. What more do you want? I for one love the CM, spend several hundred dollars USD every time a new pack comes out, and am happy to support the game I love because for my money it returns the investment with more than enough content to keep me consistently subscribed.

 

Can you run those chapters with another person without doing it twice? No you can't. Most of my guild, who had been playing since launch, has left because of this. They play with their significant others and when they can't do things with each other without having to do it twice they decided it was time to leave.

 

What more do some of us want? Things we can duo with our significant others, without stuff being a rehash of old things that we have already done a million times over.

 

Before you say it, they are not really stories like we had before because they are all the same so there really is no reason they couldn't make them able to do them with a group like they did with other missions that they had before which is non-existent now. There is nothing for two people to do together anymore.

 

Please don't even say heroics. How many blasted times can you do a heroic? They been here since launch and most of us have done it and can do it with our eyes closed (yes even with level sync). They have made no content for two or more people to do.

Edited August 6, 2016 by casirabit

[AlienEyeTX]

Although I don't necessarily disagree with your assessment, I do have to wonder if your contributions aren't suffering from diminishing returns by now.

 

All in all though I don't think it's the Cartel Market that's killing the game but it is symptomatic of a game that suffers from an imbalance between in game itemization and cartel market itemization, making the Cartel Packs disproportionately important in the game itself. The problem there is not the Cartel Packs being too much, but the in game development being too little. There is little to aspire to in the game that is not undone by what the cartel market offers in cosmetics.

 

And since endgame gearing has been made a lot easier the value of non-cosmetics is now negligible. So what this game really needs is a lot of things that you can acquire in game that are equally cool to the stuff from the cartel market, but different so that both have a value.

 

The DvL event brings it home very clearly. They took age old content and put it in a format so people can gain rewards in game that come from the Cartel Market. If that doesn't tell you there is a problem, then I don't know what will.

 

Yes. I agree. There is almost no incentive, gear-wise, to attempt anything difficult or outside of the story in this game.

 

And it wouldn't even have to be armor or anything like that. Just unique items that aren't found anywhere else. If the drop rates weren't stupid, they could get people queueing up to do almost anything.

 

But, alas, the game moves further and further away from this. That's why it's been probably 3 years since I ran an Op. Well, that's not all, but it certainly would have been incentive enough to keep making time for them.

 

***EDIT***

 

But let me make clear... I do not believe the CM is killing the game. I think it's a fantastic and necessary part of the game.

Edited August 6, 2016 by AlienEyeTX

[striderXIII]

Bad management is killing the game. Or its potential, anyway...

 

I've seen private WoW servers with a healthier population and less bugs.

 

Oh, and SWTOR has the worst f2p/cash shop system I've ever seen.

 

I was disappointed with content on launch and I'm disappointed now. I keep returning hoping something will change, but it's only getting worse. KotFE is just...bad. Especially when it comes to gameplay and replay value.

 

Makes me sad, tbh.

[OlBuzzard]

Evaluation:

1. the CM is not in and of itself the issue: it's when it becomes the primary focus and delivery point for game winning (or end game) products that becomes a problem.

2. Many feel as though something has been taken away from the game itself when a person can simply open up their wallet and "buy their way" through the game.

3. Game content is beginning to suffer as a result of too much focus on the CM ? ( I personally don't see this... but for now it could be a point of discussion).

4. Some feel as though gear used in end game should only come from drops that are found in difficult areas to complete.

 

My own thoughts on end gear is that all too often you do not gain what is needed until it is almost too late .. Or after the fact when too much emphasis is place on pieces being found in instances that require multi-player raid groups to acquire. There really does need to be a balance on this matter.

I personally would not mind if some of the better gear came from drops ... though not necessarily exclusively.

Rare equipment and gear sources have always been an interesting point of discussion, even in the best of MMO's.

 

There is one thing that I do see personally: aside from the story line, why do we play the game ? I'm not trying to be sarcastic or to incite an argument. Seriously: if there the rewards are weak for the hours of invested game time then people will (and have in MANY games, not just SWTOR) get bored and leave. It's not so much that you can "buy your way" through the game as it is why do this in the first place?

IF there are some "fun things to do" as well as something of interest to be able to discover or a DROP that's REALLY nice.. or EVEN if there were mods to go into the equipment we are using found, earned or dropped that would make things more worth while.

The one thing that some might be trouble about would be if end game material was found exclusively in areas that were difficult to complete or impossible unless in a raiding party.

Again: I'm not taking any particular side on pointing out the matters of both sides to be considered.

 

From what I've seen thus far it is VERY rare that any drop I get is actually applicable to the character I'm using at the time when I pick up a drop. 90% or BETTER of everything I find or loot is useless. I put it on the GTN or (if it's GREEN) I sell it to a droid, vendor of some sort while in game to prevent taking up unnecessary storage space.

 

I personally buy mod able gear/weapons (99% of the time on the GTN ... ). Then I begin to grind looking for pieces that have mods that I can remove and place inside of the gear that I have.

I do have a particular look that I prefer for each of my characters... soooo I tend to keep that look through out the story as much as possible (it's mostly about the immersion thing to enjoy the story better for me )

The new KotFE has actually provided a better way to do that. I can grind the assorted weekly heroics (even solo) ... earn the better glowing and radiant data crystals ... buy components for the head, chest legs ... etc, etc, etc .. The strip the mods out and place them into the mod able gear that I prefer to use. I seldom buy mod items on the GTN any more since KotFE has a better system or rewarding for grinding the weekly missions. Besides what some folks charge for purpled mod items level 65 is insane !

It takes a lot of time.. and a few extra in game credits to make it happen. But it's well worth it!

 

THE CM ?? I guess it just depends on how the individual uses (or for missuses) the system.

[Andryah]

Your reading comprehension seems impaired. To clarify I implied the CM is gaining to much emphasis for design trends and that is a result of "Big Business" influencing design decisions. Putting a stop to the big business penny pinching design tactics that will undoubtedly get much worse if encouraged is what I mentioned the consumer should make unprofitable not the game as a whole.

 

You actually removed all context from what I was saying and came to a completely different conclusion than my point...nice one.

 

You appear to have absolutely zero practical understanding of how MMO development takes place, or any internet based development for that matter.

 

For the record.. the part of the studio working on CM content =/= the part of the studio working on patch content updates. They (the studio) have stated this many times, and it makes complete and logical sense, so there is no reason to doubt the studio on this.

 

Yet people like you fluff over it and double down on your "we must stop supporting this game in order to force them to change" nonsense. Again.. the CM is not the boogey man here, nor is it killing the game in any way. In fact it has helped keep the game open and running.

 

Now.. issues some people have with claiming there is no content added to the game except for CM is complete hyperbole.. and you know it. I get if some people are upset that the game is not getting enough of their favorite pet content segment.... and for them.. it's a valid issue. But to circulate the issue in the context of the CM being evil and destroying the game is complete fantasy.

 

Like so many people these days, you want to shoot the dog because the cat has been bad to you.

 

Sincere question... since you hate the direction the studio is taking the game, and you believe that we as players must stop funding them until they change... WHY are you still a subscriber and playing this game??????????

 

IMO, you throw hand grenades at the studio, yet deflect any personal accountability for your feelings about the game being incongruent with your insistence that we all stop giving them $$. Walk your talk man. If you don't enjoy the game, then don't pay and don't play. Why play something you detest so much?

Edited August 6, 2016 by Andryah

[Deewe]

Contrary to popular opinion CM isn't killing the game though the way it's handled is making people unhappy.

 

The main issue being the money gamble. The CM tokens used to mitigate the issue. Guess they have been removed because the stats proved people are buying more crates to get the items they want that way.

=> Mitigate or remove some of the randomness/very low drop rates and you see people complaining much less.

 

Now we have to agree on the time spent on CM isn't spend elsewhere.

First I seriously doubt selling existing assets (decos, mounts, pets...) takes that much development effort. Then slightly editing alpha channels on textures or eventually tweaking textures or even meshes isn't that much of an effort either.

So in the end the time spent on new content, QoL or bug fixes vs CM would be very marginal.

 

Top to that that the ROI on the CM is most certainly the highest they have in SWTOR. Mix that with the fact you don't need huge resources to add stuff to the CM and you have a good picture of the situation.

 

So as a producer, you can either keep having a small team working on the CM with a small budget and having players spending hundreds of thousands $ a month or marginally improve the game instead in the hope you'll bring more subs.

 

Consider that each time a player buys a supercrate he's almost paying another subscription on opt of his. Now some players are buying much more than one Hypercrate a month, ie: like they are subbing for many others characters.

 

In short you want to encourage the CM and the crates, although I would advise to make it less seen as a cash grab and a casino game. Which BTW is illegal in my country

Edited August 8, 2016 by Deewe

[Transcendent]

Sincere question... since you hate the direction the studio is taking the game, and you believe that we as players must stop funding them until they change... WHY are you still a subscriber and playing this game??????????

 

A break from the game is generally good when you start becoming too embittered towards it. It gets me that people seem to forget that they have the choice available at all times.

[BorisKarloffe]

Except it is speculation presented as fact. I accept that what you quoted fits your personal narrative about the game, but it lacks any sense of business objectivity.

 

Nobody actually knows the exact operations budget used by the studio, but what we do know is that in the MMO business you scale your operations cost to be in sync with your revenue (minus a contribution margin in the form of profit to the business as a whole). And if you want to sustain revenue and profit, then there is a pragmatic line for where you set your operations budget for any given fiscal year. This is not unique to MMOs, it's basic business 101.

 

Now, if you wish to prosecute the game for spending it's operation budget on areas of the game you personally dislike and disagree with.. fine. But be honest about it.

 

Clearly they spent a large portion of their budget shifting the format of the game to be more solo friendly in 4.0. And clearly some of that cost was in the form of revamping some of the core game to make it more flexible or adaptable to future content direction (which I see as a one time sunk cost). Some people are OK with this, and some are not. What matters at this point is what they do with 5.0. IF we see more of the same as 4.0... then it is fair to conclude they are making their operations numbers and hence enough players (not all, just enough) to make the direction of effort a success for the studio. Which in no way means that the direction of the game works for everyone.... only that it is successful and merits continuation at some level. Also, they have a history of shifting direction of content production with each new expac.. so personally, I will wait to see what they do with 5.0 before attempting to pan and deride the studio.

 

While it's true no one knows the operational budget for the company (and they certainly would never want players to know), there are ways to get an idea of how much money they rake in from the CM. Just get to know a few of the CM "whales", followed by a good guess as to how many whales are in the game. That's not counting the money from subs throughout the year or direct CM CC purchases.

 

If you refuse to consider anything to be a valid critique without a figure from Bioware, then I guess none of us will know anything for sure, and you'll be stuck with only Bioware's version of any narrative.

 

If that's the way you wanna roll, fine, but your assertion that they're setting operational goals based on a reasonable budget/profit margin is no less an assumption the other way.

[Andryah]

A break from the game is generally good when you start becoming too embittered towards it. It gets me that people seem to forget that they have the choice available at all times.

 

Exactly. Playing SWTOR is completely voluntary on the part of the player.

 

It is a lot healthier to step back for a bit and take a break when frustrated or upset instead of doubling down on one's frustrations and anger.

 

But some people simply want their pound of flesh when upset and will take it anyway they can. And of course misery loves company.. hence threads like this are ripe for a pile-on by the self-disaffected.

Edited August 6, 2016 by Andryah

[Soljin]

Exactly. Playing SWTOR is completely voluntary on the part of the player.

 

It is a lot healthier to step back for a bit and take a break when frustrated or upset instead of doubling down on one's frustrations and anger.

 

But some people simply want their pound of flesh when upset and will take it anyway they can. And of course misery loves company.. hence threads like this are ripe for a pile-on by the self-disaffected.

 

I never said stop funding SWToR as a whole, if I did then unsubscribing would make sense. I specifically said stop supporting the CM...Which would mean still paying for a Sub, which I do (Month to Month).

 

If I feel like playing some Star Wars I sub.....

 

Would I like to see the game improve, gain depth in its systems and see those systems interact with each other meaningfully....Yes I would!

 

Since I clearly care about this game enough to argue for it's future (regardless if I'm on or off base) why would I pull all support?

 

Do I think the CM has it's place...sure.

 

Do I think the CM should be the primary focus of every update and Bioware conversation I see or read...Nope.

 

Do I believe that Bioware has placed an equal amount of staff and resources to each aspect of the game..Raid, PvP, Single player, Crafting and the CM just because they have said they do? Not at all, I dont see results that indicate that is accurate.

 

I started my SWToR account in March of 2009.....I was in all phases of the beta and sat up until 1am the first night of early start to tag the names I wanted on the server Rakata Mind Prison, which was a roll over from beta... Trust me when I say I care what happens to this game.

 

SWToR has potential to be so much more than it is and I'm disappointed the Bioware team has done so little to improve game systems.

 

If I think the CM is getting in the way of this game becoming what it could be, you bet I'm going to attack it.

Edited August 6, 2016 by Soljin

[shadowrouge]

dota - MMO? For real? <.<

It's a session game, MOBA. WoW lost a huge amount of subs in past years. Here is a statistic:

http://www.statista.com/statistics/251222/most-played-pc-games/

GW has as much players as swtor.

I guess you mean Leage of Legends, not linage. And Lol is a sessin game - MOBA.

 

You do know that the chart you posted doesn't say a thing about lost subs to WoW. It just stated the amount of time people are playing the game. Time dropped from playing a game might not have anything at all to do with subs. I don't play SWToR everday.

 

Heck I have taken months off but kept my sub running. Does that mean SWToR lost my sub because I was not playing? No it just means less hours played. Which is what your link says in the artical.

 

If your going to use statistical facts please use the right ones.

 

just my two cents

Edited August 6, 2016 by shadowrouge

[star-forge]

tbh i would prefer to do some kind of daily to get some form of tokens to buy cartel items as i dont like the idea of real money for ingame items never here and never will

[JabbaWabbA]

CM sucks because all the cool cosmetic stuff is from there. Some of it you can purchase straight up, but the really awesome stuff is an extremely rare drop from a pack. BW's way of making it obtainable in game is spending in game credits that gets transferred to another player, which doesn't even help the IG economy. My entire guild quit after we geared out mains in 224's. There is literally nothing else to do besides craft and run FP's and ops we have done 1000 times. I wish BW would come out with some awesome looking sets for each advanced class that would take a while to earn with tokens and massive credit sinks. I sit on a fully geared 224 character, a veteran player, with nothing to do.

[Haruen]

CM has demonstrably provided them the money to keep opening, and keep making new content.

[Tsillah]

You appear to have absolutely zero practical understanding of how MMO development takes place, or any internet based development for that matter.

 

For the record.. the part of the studio working on CM content =/= the part of the studio working on patch content updates. They (the studio) have stated this many times, and it makes complete and logical sense, so there is no reason to doubt the studio on this.

 

That may be true but it doesn't mean they can't do more. I agree those teams are different people but is BW/EA investing enough resources in each team?

 

I will give you something to make a comparison. So there is this game called Guild Wars 2. I didn't like it much when it came out but they've chosen a path now of bringing out expansions instead of small content patches and the first actual expansion was finally release in October of last year. I tried it recently and I personally think the game is much more fun than when it came out. But that's personal and here's what I want to show you. Six months after the expansion came out they say this on reddit:

 

"Going forward we’re putting ourselves in a more sustainable mode where live and expansion don’t compete with each other.

 

We have about 120 devs working on the live game, 70 devs on Expac2, and 30 devs on core teams that support both. Within these groups we have cross-discipline teams with focused missions."

 

So GW2 has 220 developers working on the game in various teams. They don't even have a sub model but they do have a cash shop which you can entirely ignore if you so choose.

 

And here's the link if you want the original

 

Now, I like SWTOR and will play again once there is enough new content again, but does anyone really believe BW has this much of a commitment to the game? I don't mean individual commitment, but financial commitment. Sure they have different teams, as does Arenanet, but I just don't believe they have anywhere near 200+ developers working on SWTOR currently. And then the question has to be why not?

 

Sincere question... since you hate the direction the studio is taking the game, and you believe that we as players must stop funding them until they change... WHY are you still a subscriber and playing this game??????????

 

Well if you like the game but believe the CM is the problem then it makes sense to pay for a sub and spend zero cash in the CM. Although personally I agree that the CM itself is not the issue as I detailed earlier in this thread.

[Deewe]

Do I think the CM has it's place...sure.

 

Do I think the CM should be the primary focus of every update and Bioware conversation I see or read...Nope.

What we don't know for sure is the amount of effort put into the CM versus other content. I mean every couple of weeks we can certainly see new crates popping up. Now other content takes much more time. As such they are delivered way less often. It does not mean CM is taking that much effort to be updated.

 

Personally I'd rather have the CM team working on QoL features than reskins and meshes editing if you ask. Although short term it would bring way less cash in game.

 

SWToR has potential to be so much more than it is and I'm disappointed the Bioware team has done so little to improve game systems.

We all know that even the devs and the producer does, hence why it's still afloat. Question is when will they start focusing on the right improvements AND content?

[Soljin]

What we don't know for sure is the amount of effort put into the CM versus other content. I mean every couple of weeks we can certainly see new crates popping up. Now other content takes much more time. As such they are delivered way less often. It does not mean CM is taking that much effort to be updated.

 

Personally I'd rather have the CM team working on QoL features than reskins and meshes editing if you ask. Although short term it would bring way less cash in game.

 

 

We all know that even the devs and the producer does, hence why it's still afloat. Question is when will they start focusing on the right improvements AND content?

 

In retort to my statement that I don't see results that indicate equal staff and resources have been allocated throughout the game design many have a common response.

 

That response is a variation of: CM content is easier to produce thus you see it more frequently, end game content is more complex and takes longer to design.

 

I agree that CM content is easy to produce....If you look at a great many of the skins you will see the base is an old skin and they have added a layer or removed a layer to make it appear slightly different from the original. Another is to take a previously NPC only skin and bring it live as a player skin....all of which means easier to get out.

 

Regarding end game content, yes I agree it surely should be deeper more complex content which takes much longer to design.

 

My issue with this is a game this size should have an end game content schedule which would allow content to be released "regularly" enough to never have content drought.

 

Since this has not been managed with a schedule and I feel we are in an endgame content drought would it not make sense to turn more resources towards completion of the disparaged content? Add resources or reallocation?

 

I may be missing some knowledge of how certain things work in the MMO industry, sure. I am a customer not an MMO designer or backer so I don't really need to understand MMO politics, I just need to know what I like and dislike.

[casirabit]

CM has demonstrably provided them the money to keep opening, and keep making new content.

 

What new content? A new chapter a month that takes maybe 30 minutes to do and that you have to do solo? Sorry that isn't holding water with a lot of people anymore.

 

By the time they even consider to add the group content it will be too late for some. Most my guild has left and I am in the process of considering cancelling my sub and returning to an old game that does things better than here.

 

As it is my boyfriend and I log in once in a while and then we stand in the stronghold and then log off as their really isn't anything for us to do.

Edited August 7, 2016 by casirabit

[Haruen]

What new content? A new chapter a month that takes maybe 30 minutes to do and that you have to do solo? Sorry that isn't holding water with a lot of people anymore.

 

By the time they even consider to add the group content it will be too late for some. Most my guild has left and I am in the process of considering cancelling my sub and returning to an old game that does things better than here.

 

As it is my boyfriend and I log in once in a while and then we stand in the stronghold and then log off as their really isn't anything for us to do.

 

KOTFE counts as new content. It may not do it for you, but it counts as new content.

[gabigool]

By the time they even consider to add the group content it will be too late for some. Most my guild has left and I am in the process of considering cancelling my sub and returning to an old game that does things better than here.

 

I agree that it will indeed be too late for some, if not many.

 

That said, a lot of players loved raiding in this game. And many of them would indeed come back if there was a reason. Despite what you read (mostly from players that have no idea what they're talking about), there really was/is a LOT to like about the way Ops were "almost" handled. The group size is perfect, the combat is fun, and the encounters are actually fairly well designed, challenging and interesting. Raiding in this game is the most fun I've ever had in any MMO.

 

The issue has always been about support. There have been horrible bugs and exploits that have festered for months. The tuning of specific encounters has been outright insane - almost no rhyme/reason. These are things that could have been fixed in days. Days. Yet they've sat for months, and in some cases, years. It's just apathy. These did not require herculean efforts to fix, but rather simply someone to give a ****.

 

I assume that at some point these guys will release another Operation. If they actually give the type of attention it deserves, a lot of players would come back and stay a while. If they release another 2-tier hardmare, horribly tuned, buggy exploitable mess like they did with SoR, people will not stay.

 

Regardless of what people try to tell you, this game could very, very easily retain a sizable endgame-PvE focused community. And it's a shame because they'd already done 98% of what such a community needed, they just got lazy with the last 2%, leaving a broken mess.

 

To tie it into this thread - the cartel market isn't the problem. The problem is the business decision to abandon any interest in creating quality, compelling MMO content to encourage player retention raising subscription revenue.

 

That we have such a successful CM is a good thing, but settling for it as the end-all be-all is shortsighted from a business perspective and frankly disrespectful to the IP.

[Tsillah]

KOTFE counts as new content. It may not do it for you, but it counts as new content.

 

I don't think he's denying that it's content, but clearly he's saying that it just isn't enough. If you look at KotfE as an expansion it offered about 10 hours of gameplay story wise (a bit more or less depending on your playing style). I think a warzone was added (Odessen) and we had some QoL updates in the mean time as well. Of course the biggest part of the expansion was the overhaul of the core game and the operations, but that's hardly new content.

 

And because it's all so easy now it gets boring more quickly also. I hope BW get this. The leveling as well as the endgame is for a large part too easy and therefore gets boring quickly. It kills replay value.

[gabigool]

KOTFE counts as new content. It may not do it for you, but it counts as new content.

 

To many MMO players, this is very, very debatable. Semantics have not stopped players from leaving.

[Theeko]

I thought it was the CM is actually saving the game?