Please Make Hard Mode Flashpoints Worth it.

[Rion_Starkiller]

Please Bioware, make them worth it again.

 

Their use to be this gearing ring that existed pre 4.0... it went - solo content>story mode flashpoint> hard mode flashpoints> operations. That exists no longer

 

Agreed that this is the crux of the problem with loot drops across all group content: Why do anything except priority HM operations in a post-4.0 world?

Edited August 3, 2016 by Rion_Starkiller

[josephxp]

Agreed that this is the crux of the problem with loot drops across all group content: Why do anything except priority HM operations in a post-4.0 world?

 

Or NMM that auto drops 224 gear <_<

[TUXs]

Or NMM that auto drops 224 gear <_<

That would certainly increase the usage of them...but they'd have to limit it somehow. Ops have a weekly limit, FPs don't.

[LyraineAlei]

That would certainly increase the usage of them...but they'd have to limit it somehow. Ops have a weekly limit, FPs don't.

 

Random 224 Mods being dropped on a daily basis per character for completing HM FPs (One HM, One Mod, per week)? When stats got streamlined, sure the number of potential mods dropped, but there are still a ton of mods to go through.

 

This would also bring back some of the old frustration with the old way Ops dropped stuff, but there are more HM FPs than Ops, and FPs are -supposed to be- easier than Ops.

[josephxp]

That would certainly increase the usage of them...but they'd have to limit it somehow. Ops have a weekly limit, FPs don't.

 

 

Random 224 Mods being dropped on a daily basis per character for completing HM FPs (One HM, One Mod, per week)? When stats got streamlined, sure the number of potential mods dropped, but there are still a ton of mods to go through.

 

This would also bring back some of the old frustration with the old way Ops dropped stuff, but there are more HM FPs than Ops, and FPs are -supposed to be- easier than Ops.

 

My 224 was in response to what the guy previously said that NMM drop the 224 automatically to point out what he said:

 

Agreed that this is the crux of the problem with loot drops across all group content: Why do anything except priority HM operations in a post-4.0 world?

 

In no way did i suggest to have 224 mods drop in HM FP's heck now.

[LyraineAlei]

My 224 was in response to what the guy previously said that NMM drop the 224 automatically to point out what he said:

 

 

 

In no way did i suggest to have 224 mods drop in HM FP's heck now.

 

Sorry, I don't do Ops, so I just remembered the number, but the general idea of a random mod of even SM or HM Ops quality might help.

[demotivator]

So you're suggesting that a 4 man set up rewards as much as a 16 man set up? Am I reading this right? Do you actually realize that it will means the death of the 16 man?

 

Back in the day, HM flashpoints dropped Columi gear... which like operation gear (Rakata) had a set bonus. I don't remember anyone being outraged, except maybe the elitist jerks as always.

Edited August 3, 2016 by demotivator

[Ethern]

Back in the day, HM flashpoints dropped Columi gear... which like operation gear (Rakata) had a set bonus. I don't remember anyone being outraged, except maybe the elitist jerks as always.

Back in the day HM fp were well integrated in the endgame progression though and were not conflicting with SM ops which did not exist.

[OFAWFletch]

Maybe if you're with a group that knows what they're doing, yes. If via GF won't happen. Can't get a good random GF nowadays, 1 in 15 random FP's

 

Please Bioware, make them worth it again.

 

As of right now, hard mode flashpoints don't have anything going for them other than a one time play though for the DVL event which usually attracts players who aren't ready for that content. The ONE thing going for it, the DVL event, actually creates a negative action. My suggestions from my own personal opinion, is that the gear should be bumped to 220 optimized for standard bosses depending on the flashpoint, and 220 set bonus for bonus bosses depending on which ones you defeat as well.

 

Their use to be this gearing ring that existed pre 4.0... it went - solo content>story mode flashpoint> hard mode flashpoints> operations. That exists no longer and I would argue even tacticals in terms of gearing have no point, their only used for XP, but at least that's something. Due to the bolster in story mode operations being so strong, all you have to do is show up with a slot filled and voila, its passable with no optimization or preparation at all, only a modicum of skill. This now leaves hard mode flashpoints completely void of any and all purpose as they aren't worth the time and effort anymore.

 

Another problem I find with these are the lack of brackets, I mean why should Esseles reward the same drops as blood hunt when its simply far easier? Should that droid in Esseles, the bonus boss, really reward the same gear as Commander Moken in Battle of Rishi? They need to bring brackets back for hard mode flashpoints in terms of gear drops and have "personal drops," like they do in tacticals, to ensure that everyone gets a worthwhile piece for their effort for what they have accomplished. Theirs only 4 gear drops anymore in hard mode flashpoints, and that's assuming you somehow get a group willing to do bonus, and out of these 4, only two hold some use. Chances are it won't even pertain to your class either, as it not only could drop a tank/DPS/healing gear, but one of the 8 offhands or main hands that pertains to the different advanced classes which leaves no hope in the galaxy to ever get something that pertains to you. Personal drops will be a god send will be implemented if you, for whatever reason, don't wish to make hard mode flashpoints worth it in terms of effort used to obtain gear.

 

My biggest gripe with hard mode flashpoints is how far their easily overshadowed by story mode operations. It's like hard mode flashpoints is the "special" red headed step child in a family full of blond hair and blue eyes anymore. Farming story mode operations is far easier than most hard mode flashpoints and gives far better rewards with a set bonus that is optimized, decorations for personal use or to sell, and a DMC. Theirs much more value in running these, and while it is only doable once per week, they could always swap toons and use legacy gear to further progress. Maybe they don't have alts somehow are or new to the game, but yes, the lockout is still a problem, however it's still infinitely more useful to wait a week than farming countless hard mode flashpoints over time. You can run them till the cows come home maxing out achievements, and the reward will never measure up to the unlimited power of operations.

 

I would also like to see decoration drop rates restored or bumped up so they actually drop more than 5% of the time to give another added bonus and audience inclined to run these, as vanity items will create a better incentive to do the bonus boss. Even as far as going adding more vanity items such as pets...additional mounts... decorations...titles... anything to increase it with fluff would be nice if you don't want to give them a purpose for gearing anymore.

 

Please Bioware, you can do it, make it worthwhile again.

[MiguelGx]

I agree with the deco chance part, there's no way I can get one of them anymore.

[Khevar]

Back in the day, HM flashpoints dropped Columi gear... which like operation gear (Rakata) had a set bonus. I don't remember anyone being outraged, except maybe the elitist jerks as always.

I liked the gear progression of that time period (1.0 - 1.7.3).

 

126 (Tionese - SM level 50 Flashpoints, later given for free)

136 (Columi - HM Flashpoint end boss)

136 (Columi - SM EV/KP/EC)

140 (Rakata - HM Lost Island end boss)

140 (Rakata - HM EV/KP, SM TfB)

146 (Campaign - HM EC)

150 (Dread Guard - HM TfB)

150 (Dread Guard - NM EC)

 

As far as set bonuses go, you also have to remember that the free Tionese gear had a set bonus. So every level 50 had access to set bonus gear so long as they were willing to look ugly. The main benefit of running HM EC/TfB was to get set bonus armoring to put in your favorite cosmetic gear.

Edited August 4, 2016 by Khevar

[Medakon]

I suggest the following: Hardmode Flashpoint drop 212 set item. Problem solved

[Ethern]

I suggest the following: Hardmode Flashpoint drop 212 set item. Problem solved

Good solution imo. No sarcasm.

It would also reintegrate HM FPs into the endgame progression ladder appropriately.

[gabigool]

Good solution imo. No sarcasm.

It would also reintegrate HM FPs into the endgame progression ladder appropriately.

 

Except no one would bother when they can get 220 set pieces more easily, and every couple week pick up a few 224's.

 

You can't simply change the loot tables and expect HM FP's to be viable. The loot table probably need a change, yes. But the problem is bigger than that.

[Ethern]

Except no one would bother when they can get 220 set pieces more easily, and every couple week pick up a few 224's.

 

You can't simply change the loot tables and expect HM FP's to be viable. The loot table probably need a change, yes. But the problem is bigger than that.

I see your point but I still think it's easier to gather 4 people over 8 or 16.

[AutoCocker]

It could work if done properly. When 50 was the cap and they first introduced Lost Island they made the final boss drop a random Rakata chest which at the time was the top tier loot in the game (even from ops). Granted Lost Island itself back then was generally a 2 hour long adventure that often ended in failure if pugging it. But still it did cause people to try and run it nonstop.

[peter_plankskull]

What would be the point of running operations then?

 

Bosses currently drop 208 Orange shells (blue mods) and the final boss drops 216 Purple shells (purple mods) in HM flashpoints (not all of them mind you, it isn't consistent).

 

I think they could bump it to 216 Purple Shells (purple mods) and the final boss to 216 Purple shells (set bonus mods) without affecting operations participation too much, but adding 220 stuff in the mix I think is the wrong approach.

 

One thing I would like altered is seeing decos drop in HM flashpoints on a much more consistent basis, especially on the harder HM flashpoints like Bloodhunt and Manaan etc. I've seen one deco drop in all of the flashpoints I've run. 2 HM flashpoints to go, so that drop rate for decos is pretty nigh on close to zero.

 

Funny how we all agree that HM FPs need a bump up in gear at least, and the current amount it gives is inadequate, how much higher is still ... meh...and undecided by the community.

 

Operations still have far more over a hard mode flashpoint, far more comms per boss, each boss drops a additional mk-2 piece, chance of decorations, you actually get to pick and choose which gear you get that pertains to what you want, some pet/mount drops, a guaranteed DMC and 10 useless isotopes. HM flashpoints rarely if ever drop a mount, and usually its the walker from the forged alliance flashpoints, only drop 2 isotopes if you do bonus, and MAY drop something that pertains to your class.

 

I would be fine and dandy if story mode operations were overall in design harder than flashpoints, but they simply aren't, and while it takes longer to organize more people, does it really matter when they only need to pull 4k DPS when they need 5.5k for HM FPs? Unless they remove the insane bolster or nerf it harder than General Grievous from the 2d to the 3d series, hard mode flashpoints will always be harder and require more effort, and the more effort should lead to more reward.

[peter_plankskull]

I do agree that HM FP's have become devalued to the point where there are largely ignored by the majority of the playerbase. And I believe, overall, that is not healthy for the game long term as they are a far better "bridge" between the easier game content and more difficult endgame content than anything else in the game - including SM Ops and Eternal Championship.

 

But the issue is not so simple as adjusting the rewards. In fact, I think that's a horrible solution, if nothing else is changed.

 

Reality is that the entire endgame structure is broken. Beyond broken. Any solution to any of the current issues needs to start with this fact.

 

Simply put, as long as HM EV/KP reward 224 gear, HMFP's will be irrelevant. And as long as bolster exists in Operations in its current state, HMFP's will be irrelevant.

 

I can understand and empathize with the idea of making Operations more accessible to more people. I truly can.

 

But there is more than one path to doing this, and the path we are currently on has caused far more problems than it has solved. It seems to me that a path where players have incentive to develop a minimal threshold of comprehension about their class, group class mechanics and the encounters themselves will lead to far more participation, success and enjoyment. Anyone who has experienced group play outside of guild/teamplay has to recognize the playerbase is currently woefully under-prepared to contribute at any sort of meaningful level.

 

My suggestion is that EV/KP should be nothing more than a weekly, separate from all other existing Operations content and should reward nothing but 208/216 non set gear, decorations and commendations. It should serve as an introduction to meaningful Operations content - not as such content. Because it is not.

 

HM FP's should drop 216 MK-2 gear. The groupfinder needs to be split into tiers, with places like LI and BH separate from places like Battle of Ilum and Foundry. The upper tier should be 65 only, have no bolster and drop 216 token pieces off the last boss.

 

Bolster is fine for things like EV/KP. But it has no place in the rest of Operations content. Having SM operations filled with level 52 players makes no sense. These players belong in Flashpoints.

 

And lastly, I would get rid of Priority Operations entirely. It takes away meaningful choice for groups - they can't focus on the Operations they want to, rather they feel pressure to do something different each week. I'm sorry but the idea that players should be focusing on obtaining 224 gear is just a destructive mindset. Players should be focused on beating bosses. The gear comes to groups that can do that.

 

Bolster is probably the main and largest reason why hard mode flashpoints are useless, but Bioware knows this, and they simply don't care. They have the metrics and data in their system, and even if they didn't, they can always log in Tuesday on Harb during max pop when EV/KP is priority, and see over 30 instances of people running it, and when its TOS or something theirs only a handful in comparison. Even if EV and KP isn't priority they FAR outweigh any other HM operation. Level sync was a great implementation for solo content, and to a point, some tacticals, but it completely ruined gear progression and made hard mode flashpoints completely useless for end game. EV and KP is a large contributor to the problem with them being so easy, but with no need to prepare for story mode operations, the whole point hard mode flashpoints were for, it makes everything them irrelevant. I just want Bioware to budge a little bit and at least add some value.

 

I completely and 100% agree with the ideas to EV and KP, and admitably part of me liked priority because I thought it would slowly inch people into nightmare. Turns out people just wait till the HM priority version comes around and farm it with 85 alts and legacy gear, it needs to go as well.

 

I would still argue on the fact that HM LI/blood hunt far outweighs most SM op boss fights and should reward more still. 216 mk-2 still feels a little low when you compare HM LI to TFB and SNV.

[peter_plankskull]

Adversaries? I think of you more like one of those henchman that gets chopped and is knocked out for a week.

 

Tux on the other hand is my arch nemesis. If you ever saw a picture of Tux you would understand. He has those handlebar moustache and extra pointy goatee. He dress all in black with a black cap and top hat. Carries around a giant red light saber.

 

A Saturday night Scooby villain ... the kind that goes "you meddling kids! ill be back!" .

 

Not sure to take offense to that... but since some of my favorite characters are like that IE Aku, General Grievous, and The Shredder... ill take it as a compliment.

 

After all this time... TUX.... he... he is a... a sith?!?!?!?!

[Warrgames]

A Saturday night Scooby villain ... the kind that goes "you meddling kids! ill be back!" .

 

Not sure to take offense to that... but since some of my favorite characters are like that IE Aku, General Grievous, and The Shredder... ill take it as a compliment.

 

After all this time... TUX.... he... he is a... a sith?!?!?!?!

 

He just like waving around a lightsaber.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Funny how we all agree that HM FPs need a bump up in gear at least, and the current amount it gives is inadequate, how much higher is still ... meh...and undecided by the community.

 

Operations still have far more over a hard mode flashpoint, far more comms per boss, each boss drops a additional mk-2 piece, chance of decorations, you actually get to pick and choose which gear you get that pertains to what you want, some pet/mount drops, a guaranteed DMC and 10 useless isotopes. HM flashpoints rarely if ever drop a mount, and usually its the walker from the forged alliance flashpoints, only drop 2 isotopes if you do bonus, and MAY drop something that pertains to your class.

 

I would be fine and dandy if story mode operations were overall in design harder than flashpoints, but they simply aren't, and while it takes longer to organize more people, does it really matter when they only need to pull 4k DPS when they need 5.5k for HM FPs? Unless they remove the insane bolster or nerf it harder than General Grievous from the 2d to the 3d series, hard mode flashpoints will always be harder and require more effort, and the more effort should lead to more reward.

 

Please don't mistake any points of disagreement as combative in nature, there are just a few points I felt should be addressed because I don't think it is a good idea for people to get the wrong idea about about the differences in difficulty between FPs and Operations, and there are a few things that might be misleading to newer players.

 

Firstly, I'm an end game progression raider, but I am no elitist. I hate elitists as they foster distain to many who might consider getting into end game progression raiding. Obviously, one does not become a progression without first having done flashpoints on all levels, in fact, that is exactly what flashpoints are, stepping stones to Operations.

 

For the sake of dispelling misinformation, gautenteed DMCs only drop in hard mode operations. One does drop on the final boss in storymode operations, but that is the only one. More coms do drop per boss in operations than in FPs but for a very good reason, that being that bosses in Operations are significanly more difficult to down than bosses in FPs [There may be one or two exceptions, but by and large] - more on this later. No gear drops in Operations allow you to pick and choose. Even in the case wherein the drops are token gear drops, they are specific to each boss. Boss X drops token gear belt, or Boss V drops Token gear boots. All other gear that drops [non-token gear] are specific as well. A boss may drop a pair of boots and a belt, but you don't get to pick and choose anything. What does drop just like in flashpoints you roll for and maybe you get it and maybe you dont. Token gear does give you the option of some stat differences at the respective vendor you cash the token gear in to, but it doesnt let you choose the gear type. If you get a token gear boots, you have to get boots at the vendor you cannot take that boots token and get a belt with it. With regard to mounts, mounts only drop in Operations on the last boss, in most cases the mounts are total crap. Decos do drop more frequently in Operations than in FPs. The decos that do drop are mostly specific to the Op in question and are going to be the same decos each time they do drop save for the last Boss which can drop a statue deco also Operation themed.

 

I'm not sure what your basing the level of difference in difficulty between HM FPs and Operations on. In no way shape or form are HM FPs more difficult than Operations. And with regard to the DPS checks, the same applies. The DPS checks on almost all bosses in FPs HM or otherwise are less than youll find in Operations. If you take the linear perspective and compare HM FPs with HM Operations this DPS check difference is even more extreme. This is not to say necessarily that the DPS checks are hard on all bosses in all Operations for decently geared and decently skilled players, but the dps checks in a HM Operation will be higher than in any FP. You seem to take opposite view and inverse that, but that is not the case. If you try to get away with the DPSers doing 4k DPS in a HM Operation [even SM in many instances]. You are going to fail to meet the DPS check on many fights. Furthermore, I can think of no boss in any FP that would have a 5.5k dps check for DPSers. If that was the case, people leveling could not possibly meet the dps checks given the gear level they have available to them under 65.

 

The difficulty you are finding is not due to greater difficulty in HM FPs compared to Operations, because quite simply they are less difficult than operations. The difficulty stems from a few things. Mostly notably, lack of proper roles. You can quece for a HM FP and find yourself in a group lacking a healer or a tank or in many cases, both. Leaving groups of 4 DPSers going at the HM flashpoints. A futher proof of the lesser difficulty of HM FPS compared to Operations is while its possible to do HM FPs with only DPSers, you could not get away with getting through a whole Operation with only DPS [there are no kolto stations in Operations]. You might get thru one easy Operation boss like that with very skilled players but 95% of the time you can't.

 

Another cause of difficulty in doing HM FPs and this is rampant, poor dps. From level 10-60 there is no "rotations" because you simply don't have all the attacks and skills to preform a class/spec's rotation and thus you are left with, at best, priorities. Adding to this is the level of skill of the players. Because people may have not had alot of experience yet, they simply don't yet know whats important to use and what isnt and are spamming basic attack.

And the last great contributer to the difficulty found in some doing HM FPS is poor gear. All DPS is a math equation. The numbers that one finds in the gear sets the damage ceiling potential. So even the most skilled of players cannot overcome the limitations imposed by the numbers found in their gear. A skilled player can mitigate that defecincy to some degree, but if even the best player cannot down an Operation boss in green level 10 gear. The numbers simply don't add up. There is no question that skill is more important, but, at the end of the day you can't overcome the laws of physics.

 

Bolster is another huge culprit in making HM FPs difficult for some. It's extremely misleading. Bolster can up your stats, but it does nothing to make up for the skills a lower level player simply does not have yet. A level 15 tank is not going to be sufficiently able to tank properly a difficult boss because he simply doesn't have the skills necessary to over come the the threat being generated by the damage a level 62 Marauder is putting out. I play a carnage marauder myself, im geared in full 224, and every once and while I'll do an FP just for fun or to help someone I know out whos leveling a new character and I end up "tanking" the boss the whole fight because the lower level tank can't produce enough threat to overcome the threat im generating through damage. [The term "agro-whore" was coined for just such situations].

 

There are some notably difficult HM FPs. Bloodhunt is one, Lost Island gets alot of complaints. The walker boss end fight one [i cant remember the name of that one, but its only that one fight].

 

Keep your gear up to date. Be aware of your skill priorities in the absence of being able to preform a full proper rotation. Go with a Trinity. [1tank, 1 healer, 2 DPS - preferably one ranged], study a guide on the Flashpoint in question, and try to not have anyone under level 30 idealy] - If you keep to these perimeters there is no reason you cannot clear these HM FPs. They are perfectly doable under these conditions, in fact, they are doable even without all these present. The absence of many of these conditions is why some find it difficult.

 

I assure you, Operations are more challanging than HM FPS, the difference is that Operations have minimum requirements, FPS don't. Operations groups have all the roles present [mostly] , FPS don't. That's the real problem. People who try to do Operations notably under geared will get kicked because the requirements are in black and white, and if a player is lost, the group than seeks to fill that spot with the same role to ensure a proper role representation in the group. You get much more latitude in FPS than you'd get in any operation. The trinity requirement that used to exist in FPS and that was taken away lead to the current issues some groups are having with HM FPs.

 

Check out the Flashpoint/Operations/Heroic section of the posting boards. You will find entire threads there calling for an increase in the difficulty of HM FPs because many feel they are too easy.

 

As far as the level of gear drops. The gear level of the drops in FPs have to be less than those found in Operations because Operations are more difficult than even HM FPs.

 

I do agree though, there is very little incentive to do any FPs beyond level cap. Thier real value coming in the form of XP, and hontestly, if you're leveling the gear drops can be useful if your not just buying all the purple gear on the GTN.

[VegasTheLost]

While I'm happy that OPS are more accessible than ever(in SM level and to some extent to HM), the way they are currently now is just messed up. Personally I wouldn't mind if SM OPS were harder than HM FP, but I know that than OPS wouldn't be in scope for a lot of folks. Nerfing HM FP does not cut it and as well adding better gear to them. Really crap situation we have right now endgame vise. Somehow I fear that HM FPs will get the same treatment as NiM OPS. Really hope it's not the case, because currently there is no point doing HM FP. Gear is crap, deco chance even crappier, and some of the folks you end up with are simply clueless.

 

Just to summarize, mainly for myself:

- TFPs are meh

- HM FPs are too hard for some and reward useless gear compared to:

- SM OPS, are nerfed to the ground and reward better gear than HM FP and are more easier

- HM OPS have some challenge and can be fun plus they reward good gear

- HHM OPS reward BiS gear with 2 HM OPS that are easier than HM FPs

- NiM OPS, reward BiS gear, ultimate challenge and according to the general/average population of the game no one does them(wrong)

 

Adding to this, you get great gear that you can only use for progression beyond HM OPS level. Boy BW messed up this game big time.

[merovejec]

Did it yesterday with 57 healer no issue.

 

Haha yeah that was me healing in empty xp gear, if ppl cannot beat that fps, they should not play the group endgame content.

[merovejec]

I see your point but I still think it's easier to gather 4 people over 8 or 16.

 

yes, but keep also in mind that it really depends on how good the players are. In a 4man group everyone has to be good, you cannot carry such a group that easily. In a 8-16man operation more ppl can be ****, since others will carry them, also the difficulty isnt that big.

[omaan]

I agree with the part of making hm flashpoints viable. Recently i took a quest about the raghoul problem and crazy professor who spreads the desease .There is only one way to complete this quest - completing two hm fp ( i really don't know why these two fp are only available in hard mode ) but anyway i waited 5 hours in gf que and still no procs... it was t3m4 server and it is quite populated. HM fp should be worth doing them lol. Pls devs do something