Stop the Imperial domination in PvP - The Harbinger

[Technohic]

No, stay on your merc so I have something easy to kil. lol

 

Did you run into me?

[Icykill_]

Did you run into me?

 

I'm only joking

[-Bob-]

Well, anyway, I've given up discussing here. This will probably be my "last Hurra" in terms of discussing in PvP.

(By the way, the *original* German-language "Hurra" is an outcry of joy. Interesting how it got changed that way in U.S. language ...)

 

My point is, that leaving one faction which is not as good as the other makes the game become even more unfun for those who remain. It's like in war "I'm sorry, but I'm switching over to the better side, because they are winning more often". To the remaining people, this would feel like treason in RL. Here, it seems to be pretty normal.

 

People don't want to carry less skillful players. They even have special words for them : windowlickers, mouthbreathers, autists, or the infamous "bad".

 

In RL, I'm working in a firm where there are at least 2 Autists working as well, one of them in my own team.

In the firm I was working in RL before that it was even more heavy : It's a firm which consists to 1/3 of handicapped people, physically handicapped and mentally handicapped. Of course it wasn't one of those highly competitive firms out in the market. It was an highly socially oriented firm, in part even built to give those handicapped people a place they could work as well as they are able to !

 

From this experience in RL comes my point of view. Some of them might ACTUALLY are "mouth-breathers" and "window lickers" - because they are RL handicapped people !

 

And yet PvP players use worde like these as insults. And then laugh about that and say "but we weren't entirely serious ! We were only joking !" Well, then there is the tiny word of "entirely" ... It means that ... well ... in part, yes ... they were ...

 

I have been working with them long enough to know that they want THEIR place in the world as well. The less skillful ones. The mouthbreathers. The window lickers. The Autists.

 

At least the most toxic players in PvP and in PvE deny them their place in the world - in this game, that is. "Go play Hello Kitty !" they might say - as if "Hello Kitty" was just the RIGHT game for Stephen Hawking, the physician, who isn't able to move his body anymore. Highly intelligent ... I bet he'd be ablke to beat most of you in MENTAL games ... But in PvP ... Well, no.

 

You don't want to carry less skillful players. People often enough say so. A lot of people have a name, a special word for them : "Bads".

 

Well, let's imagine a charity soccer / basketball / baseball / whatever match between teams which consist to 50 % of top 5 players in the world - and 50 % of severely handicapped people. Not the like of Pistorius, but REALLY handicapped. NOT able to win any Paralympics medals !

These top 5 players of the world - how would they feel ? Would they think like "I don't want to carry them ?" Would they complain that they are in mixed teams with less skillful players ?

Of course they wouldnm't give their team members names like "mouthbreather" or "window licker" or simply "Autist".

Why ? because it would be a charity match. THEN, they would have to GO DOWN FROM their platinum level of playing to GIVE the other team members A CHANCE to play with them !

Of couse, it would be too easy, far too easy, if these top 5 world players would just play the whole charity match among themselves. They DO NOT NEED the "help" from the other, the handicapped team members. They just don't need them. They could pretty much form a "closed circle" and perform THE WHOLE MATCH among themselves !

But the world is watching. In this charity match, people would notice, people would see that the top 5 world players would not help their team mates. Everyone would notice that they don't help them, finding their place in the team - and, even more important - get their own events of satisfaction ! By scoring a goal, for example !

 

This is more or less the background against which I'm measing this "competitive scene" here. When I read "but I don't want to carry bads" I must think "but I did so in RL !" And I can't understand it why it is so ... "dangerous" ? for people to have less skillful people in their own team. And the more toxic players act as if the presence of not very skillful players is like a spreading illness and everybody needs to get away from that or might become as dumb as them themselves !

 

Everyone of my own generation says tat people have become more selfish, more aggressive these times. And I agree.

 

I blame Bioware, too. For not providing a proper kind of matchmaking for those less skillful players. A person just can develop only so much. Sir Stephen Hawking will never be a good PvP player.

 

But, people often use Bioware's fault as what I call an "shield argument". It's perfect to hide behind that - and meanwhile carry on with old behavious. "But we can't change the mistakes Bioware did !" might say the farmer.

 

Exploiting others rather than teaching them seems to be the preferred method.

Okay, there might people who "don't want to learn". Well, but what about the rest ?

 

And, why even being toxic in the first place if one knows that the own toxiticy will most likely destroy PvP in the long run ? Or are people only thinking quarterly these days ? "In the long frun" might even get dismissed, because people just can't think further than 1-3 years. That a forest warden has to think IN CENTURIES is something that has become even more alien these days. And that's why companies exploit the tropical forests : Because their own home forests are already depleted by their quartery way of thinking, I guess.

 

Leaving a less skilled faction for the better faction simply makes the whole game more unfun for those who remain in the less skillful faction.

 

And by saying "you're a fool if you don't switch factions, too", one forces people to adapt to / adopt the SAME play style as the one who says this - and forcing someone to do things the own way is rather selfish in my eyes, too.

 

"Adapt, or be damned" or something like that. Or, in other words : "Do what we all do, or drown."

This is a herd of selfishly thinking people. All want the same - getting away from the less skillful faction - and assume that this is the ONLY way. Those left won't be happy.

 

This is basically what I wanted to say. And I do know that you won't understand me. That'Äs why I wrote that this is probably my last discussion reply here.

 

Good, if tides turn, but I'm too much disappointed by now.

 

Mimimi ?

 

I think your real issue is that you're equating a place in this game to RL acceptance. Honestly, stop taking this game too seriously because RL is what matters most. Once you log out of the game and close this browser, the fantasy world goes away and the Trolls have no impact on your life.

Let it go Bro

[Technohic]

I'm only joking

Thought so but it definitively could have been possible

[Kazz_Devlin]

How about balancing the dam professions then start with cross server. besides I'd rather have open world PVP where we try and capture/kill NPC's and get coms for it. The opposing side of course is there to prevent said thing from occurring.

[Kazz_Devlin]

Steven Hawking is a physicist not a physician!

I think the point your trying to make is don't ridicule those less skilled...don't have issue with that but I also don't think standards should be lowered to accommodate those that are more skilled that just defeats the purpose. I do attribute most of the imbalance on the different classes and there inherent imbalances and EA/Biowares complete incompetence in addressing them. Hence the reason we have a plethora of jugs and sorcs in most PVP matches.

Edited July 26, 2016 by Kazz_Devlin

[AlrikFassbauer]

Steven Hawking is a physicist not a physician!

 

I always mix both, even in my own language.

 

 

I think the point your trying to make is don't ridicule those less skilled...don't have issue with that but I also don't think standards should be lowered to accommodate those that are more skilled that just defeats the purpose. I do attribute most of the imbalance on the different classes and there inherent imbalances and EA/Biowares complete incompetence in addressing them. Hence the reason we have a plethora of jugs and sorcs in most PVP matches.

 

In my opinion, skilled players and unskilled players need to be divided from one another., I won't quote my favourite example just another time for that. To me it's just natural that a basketball team consisting of kids, or of handicsapped people should NEWVER EVER be put to play against a team of the world to players, NEVER EVER.

 

In part, I was inspired to it by this thing : http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=886255&page=4

 

Yet BIoware does so, and the PvP community says "well, that's just the way it is", and happily plays in this bracket - because Bioware gives them no other possibility. "Become a herd animal, or get eaten. Become a blind follower and profit from it, or get beaten. This is something deeply within humans, I suppose, because in political systems with a high degree of suppression it is similar. It boils down to a degree of egoism, of opportunism. How many people "sold" Jews to the Nazis only to get their goods they were jealous about ? Or, another favourite example : Mr. Mugabe in Africa : Help him, and you'll profit. Stand against him, and you'll vanish.

 

Be a herd animal, and proit. Stand against it, and you'll lose. That's why people are so much more concerned with not losing their ranks than with the brackets of Unranked. They want to profit, so they decide to say : "Unranked ? Who cares ?"

 

See also the experiments by Milgram. Very disturbing, very disturbing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

Edited July 26, 2016 by AlrikFassbauer

[lewdolan]

I'd especially like to see that level of balance in the level 65 PVP WZs. It really does appear that the Imps have a greater advantage in AOEs , Interupts, and CCs than Pub players. Since PVP is now a "requirement" to fulfill recruiting M!-4X, plodding through 18-20 matches is highly frustrating and NOT fun. Making all mixed, like Odessa is a great idea.

[Hatori_Hanzo]

I'd especially like to see that level of balance in the level 65 PVP WZs. It really does appear that the Imps have a greater advantage in AOEs , Interupts, and CCs than Pub players. Since PVP is now a "requirement" to fulfill recruiting M!-4X, plodding through 18-20 matches is highly frustrating and NOT fun. Making all mixed, like Odessa is a great idea.

 

 

HUH???????????

 

The classes are mirrors of each other, you did know this right??????

[lewdolan]

In theory, maybe, but I'm seeing skills from Imps that are not mirrored on the Pub side. I see some folks saying that Imps are hacking - can't prove that one way or the other, but there is a significant inequity in skills between Imp and Pub. Yes, I am a sub, 3 1/2 years worth, but only about 2 years in PVP. PLEASE FIX THE INEQUITIES - I don't plan to do any more PVP until I see that there is balance once again.

[TrixxieTriss]

Dominated imps yesterday for 6 hours when people played the objectives. The only time we lost was when they didn't.

 

So it's pretty easy to work out.

 

If reps play objectives they win most of the time.

If they death match the imps slaughter them.

 

Why does this happen?

Because the imps are selfish players and don't play for the team. Reps on a whole are more team orientated.

Plus the imps run in death squads of 3 or more to take out 1 rep. And because reps are playing objectives, encounters with an imp death squad are rarely on equal terms, because reps are guarding and rotate to calls.

Imps usually over rotate and never leave guards or enough of them. As long as Reps don't over rotate and get insync and stay ahead of the imp over rotation, it's a win.

I've noticed a lot of imps can't 1v1 and win. Most need 2 or more. They don't respond to inc calls. So if you're good enough, one rep can 1v1 the other node if the imps have two nodes. By the time the imps respond, it's too late.

Then one of two things happen. All of the imps run to that node you just captured, but your team is ahead of them and get there to defend. Or they crush the one or two defenders the imps leave to guard. But only as long as the person who took that other node can zerg, los, and stay alive long enough to hold them up. If you can't do that, then don't go try.

The times the imps do call inc and respond fast, they nearly always over commit. So a good tactic if your team is having an issue getting a node the imps are all at, is for one person (only) to draw a bunch of them to that inc call. When that happens, there needs to be a powerful push by your team to crush or even push the imps away from the node and capture it. The biggest mistake you can make is following that solo person who is trying to draw them off.

 

The only thing you need to remember about imps, is they are in it for themselves. All they want is the highest DPS.

If they can get you to death match away from nodes, they win.

If they can get you to just keep suiciding from the same respawn point into their death squad, they win.

If you just keep grinding as a whole group at the node they have, they win.

They have superior death squad abilities over most reps. Play the match their way and they win.

 

But play as a team, for the team, use tactics and communicate and reps win most of those matches.

[TrixxieTriss]

In theory, maybe, but I'm seeing skills from Imps that are not mirrored on the Pub side. I see some folks saying that Imps are hacking - can't prove that one way or the other, but there is a significant inequity in skills between Imp and Pub. Yes, I am a sub, 3 1/2 years worth, but only about 2 years in PVP. PLEASE FIX THE INEQUITIES - I don't plan to do any more PVP until I see that there is balance once again.

 

First, imps and reps play differently, as I pointed out in my previous post. It's not a skill issue as such, it's a style of play. If imps keep playing the way they currently do and reps keep learning to play the way a lot of them are learning to do. The out come will be more wins for reps when they use their brains. I hate to say it, but most imps are sheep or have tunnel vision. It's all about that holy grail of numbers at the detriment of their teams.

The other issue is more people play imps. So it's also a population problem. If you were to compare actual skill percentages instead of numbers, I would say the reps would have the higher percentage of skilled players. But what gives the imps the advantage here is their bad players get watered down by their higher numbers of skilled players.

ie (this is just a comparison and these population numbers in the next bit aren't realistic, but are easier to understand), if the reps have 30 players in the queue and 33% of them are bad, that means 10 out of 30 are bad. In comparison the imps might have 90 players with 33% bad, that means they have 30 that are bad.

But each time the queue pops, the reps have a lower population to draw from, so there is a much higher chance of getting all bad players or a lot of bad players on your team. Where as the imps have a much bigger group to draw from, so there is a much lower chance of all of their team being bad and they may only get 1 or 2 bad players or none at all.

The main contributing inequity is population sizes.

 

As for cheating imps. It's not just imps, it happens on both sides. Can I prove it? Damn right I can. Is it worth my time constantly policing every match and reporting and providing proof to Bio, absolutely not. They do nothing about it and if they do its a slap on the wrist. There is no deterrent and it's a complete waste of my playing time to spend 10 mins after a match to report it and/or edit video footage to send as evidence. Maybe if they made the reporting process easy to do and actually followed it up with proper penelties, I would do it. I gave up after trying for 3 years and seeing the same people doing it.

[Technohic]

Was this on 65's Trixxie? I know on midbies; pubs were winning last night most the matches I was in. I think I only managed to steal an Odessan win but that was mixed.

 

I did notice that when I was on my operative and started to take out my target; the enemy team didn't just keep going about their business while I do it. They actually turned and focused me enough to where I had to roll out or cloak.

Edited July 27, 2016 by Technohic

[TrixxieTriss]

Was this on 65's Trixxie? I know on midbies; pubs were winning last night most the matches I was in. I think I only managed to steal an Odessan win but that was mixed.

 

I did notice that when I was on my operative and started to take out my target; the enemy team didn't just keep going about their business while I do it. They actually turned and focused me enough to where I had to roll out or cloak.

 

Last night it was mids.

 

Did it happen to be a pair of Sentinels focusing you like that?

Edited July 27, 2016 by TrixxieTriss

[Technohic]

Last night it was mids.

 

Did it happen to be a pair of Sentinels focusing you like that?

 

Yeah. In NC there were for sure.

[JargoFett]

I've noticed I have much more luck winning in mids on my Pub than I do my imp but for some reason, that skill doesn't seem to translate to their 65s cause I played 10+ matches last night and pubs lost every single one to my imp side group.

[TrixxieTriss]

Yeah. In NC there were for sure.

 

That was probably me and someone I linked up with after a few games together. It's always good when you find someone who is insync with you in matches.

[TrixxieTriss]

I've noticed I have much more luck winning in mids on my Pub than I do my imp but for some reason, that skill doesn't seem to translate to their 65s cause I played 10+ matches last night and pubs lost every single one to my imp side group.

 

Give them time. Lots of these guys are new to PVP. We're trying to train them up for 65s. Plus there are a lot more imp 65s than reps.

The mistake lots of people make with pvp is they think they can jump straight into it for the first time at 65 and be competitive. Then they complain about gear and premades. The whole instant lvl 60 option really accentuated this when they introduced it. At least with the DvL event, more people are trying PVP in lowbies and mids.

Lots of the current rep 65 players are ones that have lvl'd outside of PVP and jumped straight in. I'm hoping this next batch currently coming up through the ranks will know what they are doing by the time they all start to top out at 65. Fingers crossed they don't abondon it to go and do story stuff.

[Shubhabrata]

Another awesome match we had in midbies today against immense odds. Hope you all enjoy!

 

 

Keep up the teamwork republic players

 

-----------------------------

aka Faith (Mara/Sent)

[wiseread]

Another awesome match we had in midbies today against immense odds. Hope you all enjoy!

 

 

Keep up the teamwork republic players

 

-----------------------------

aka Faith (Mara/Sent)

 

Nice to see that there are still players who know what they're doing on the pub side. It appears pvp on pub side has been getting better and it's probably cause many players are playing pub toons for the dvl event.

[lewdolan]

Nice to see that there are still players who know what they're doing on the pub side. It appears pvp on pub side has been getting better and it's probably cause many players are playing pub toons for the dvl event.

 

Not at 65 level - at least not yet. Still seems to be a huge inequity between teams.

[TrixxieTriss]

Nice to see that there are still players who know what they're doing on the pub side. It appears pvp on pub side has been getting better and it's probably cause many players are playing pub toons for the dvl event.

 

I've been playing this game since launch and I've seen it all and what has had the biggest negative affect on objective PVP was removing 8man ranked and introducing ranked solo arena. As soon as arena started, the death match mentality filtered through to objective PVP. The reason for this was the attitude the death match people had/have. If you aren't topping the DPS or can't 1v1 someone, you must be a scub. It wouldn't have been too bad except they are also the loudest in chat, big egos demand big attention and how better to make themselves look good, than to put others down.

Most people don't like being treated that way, so if you can't beat them, join them. As soon as that happened, the art of good objective play started to die. The death match thugs grew and grew so that any new pvpers only learnt to play that way. It has had a flow on effect ever since.

Everyone, including me would probably agree that ranked "team" 8man wasn't that successful, but if you now look at team arena, it is in the same position. Bio saw the problem with team 8man and decided to add a solo ranked option for arena. If only they had done this for 8man ranked, it would have made it viable and would have combat the death match mentality we now see in all objective PVP. You couldn't win 8man ranked by death matching all over the map. It required tactics and team work, which are basically non existent now in objective PVP.

What has helped and is helping the reps at the moment is the DvL event. A lot of the remaining objective players are reps. We are trying to teach a new generation of pvpers how to win objective PVP with their brains. Thankfully lots of them are listening and following advice. I hardly ever lose matches with objective orientated players, even if the other team are better 1v1 players or run in death squads to global people. Using advanced tactics and strategy allows less skilled fighters to over come the odds. While the other team is running in death squad groups of 3-8 and ignoring the objectives, a smart team can win. Real life history is strewn with example of smaller armies over coming massive odds to win battles and wars by using brains over brawn. Objective PVP is no different.

 

I'm not lying when I tell you that 90% of matches I win on reps are with objective and team orientated players. The times I lose are because they get sucked into playing a death match, which the Imps are much better at playing because that's all they have been taught to play. The only other losses is when some imps with brains decide to carry the idiots on their teams by playing objective PVP.

 

The reps attitude is so much better than the imps. They rarely trash talk their own team mates, they want to win, they communicate and I've noticed lately that they stick up for like minded people. I've been trying to teach and guid my teams. I have a quick chat before the match, ask people to play objective etc, and tell them death matching = loss, objective = win. Of course there is always the occasional idiot, usually an imp on a rep toon, who bad mouths me. But lots of people speak up in defence and tell them to stop being a selfish player. This makes me smile. The team attitude is strong with the reps.

 

One last point. I jumped onto my imp alt last night as I saw they were getting decimated and I decided to try and help. After losing 3 games in a row to the now objective orientated reps, I suggested we play the objectives. OMG did I get abused for such an attitude, lol. Played another 2 and lose badly. I topped the DPS in every match, while guarding and not fighting most of the time. The next match I just told them, play the objective or I leave. They are only winning because you won't play objectives. I guess the 20 losses or more these people had suffered was enough to make them finally listen. We lost that match, but it was the closest we'd had and only because they'd listened, we only lost because 2 of our team were selfish DMs. Those guys weren't in any of my other imp matches and we went on to win the next 8.

 

So the moral of this short or long story is that attitude, team work and objective play wins more matches than selfish, bad attitude, death matching.

[TrixxieTriss]

Not at 65 level - at least not yet. Still seems to be a huge inequity between teams.

 

Give the guys we're training up some time to lvl up and get some PVP combat skill under the belt. A lot of thos reps at 65 haven't learnt to play properly

[Shubhabrata]

I must admit that I have had a bag of mixed experience on both Republic and Imperial side in Harbinger while leveling my Sentinel and Marauder. When I was playing my Marauder, most of my games were against weaker republic opponents and we won most of the matches by huge margins. This was not unlike my experience in my home server, The Red Eclipse.

 

However, after capping level with my Marauder and finishing her gear, I rolled my sentinel and I found that reps were being very competitive. Of course, I tend to invite good players to group when I see them and am open to invitation to other like minded groups, still, I felt that the over all quality of republic pvp was much better than during my run as a marauder.

 

Of course, there are moments of chaos too, when people over commit to one node, or death match away from nodes, or do not rotate fast enough or do not call inc. But overall, the quality is quite good, from my experience in the last couple of weeks.

 

So maybe things are changing with more and more players playing republic toons now, due to DvL event and I hope that this translates to level 65 when this event ends.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[AlrikFassbauer]

I've been playing this game since launch and I've seen it all and what has had the biggest negative affect on objective PVP was removing 8man ranked and introducing ranked solo arena. As soon as arena started, the death match mentality filtered through to objective PVP. The reason for this was the attitude the death match people had/have. If you aren't topping the DPS or can't 1v1 someone, you must be a scub. It wouldn't have been too bad except they are also the loudest in chat, big egos demand big attention and how better to make themselves look good, than to put others down.

 

My "inner cynic" says that "arena was made to please [ the mentality of ] most imperial side players".

So, in the end, if I follow this thought, this is just another proof of Bioware favouring that side.

It's almost as if they really, really wanted to drive Republic players out of the game - or "educate" them to become "imperial" in the sense of adopting this mentality, my "inner cynic" adds.