is this game no longer Canon?

[Captain_Zone]

Was any SW game actually canon? Doubt it

 

The Dark Forces / Kyle Katarn games WERE canon, before Disney screwed the pooch with their "New Continuity" garbage.

[Limariko]

Fans didn't have to make sure everything fit, Leland Chee and the Holocron did. The fact that Star Wars had an ongoing timeline is what made it unique. The Canon Heirarchy really isn't that complicated by the way.

 

G-Canon: The 6 films.

S-Canon: Events in video games that aren't fully explained wether or not they're canon (A lot of things in SWTOR)

T-Canon: The Clone Wars TV Show.

C-Canon: Continuity Canon. Everything in here is canon.

N-Canon: Alternate Timelines and spin-offs fit here (Such as the SW characters appearing in Soul Calibur 4 for example)

 

And in about 20 years from now, what will Disney do when their continuity gets "too full"?

 

I do get your point and do agree that the Canon Hierarchy breakdown isn't really complicated, but damn if it still doesn't feel like a "some things are more canon than others" as opposed to a "canon is canon is canon" kinda thing if that makes sense. That's what stuck in my craw about it. I would have to look up when Leland Chee became involved because I definitely don't recall any attempts to reign in the glorious chaos of the early days of the fandom. When I think of the sheer volume of material he had to deal with and sorting it all out, I know I would've ended up going through bottles of Maalox with a straw trying to sort out that mess.

 

Equally with how complex the assorted franchises have become especially with how voracious fandom is with wanting to know more, I don't really see a revision of canon as a uniquely Disney mandate thing. While quite a few consider it bold heresy to say (and has gotten me booted from some forums as well for saying it), but Star Trek before the Abrams films had been long overdue for a shakeup of any kind and regardless of how one feels about the AbramsTrek films, their existence did give the franchise a much needed and overdue shot of adrenaline.

 

Same goes for Star Wars, I do agree completely that there very likely will be another canon revision down the road at some point, but I'd say it's still questionable as to when it happens compared to the EU mandate simply because now there's awareness of continuity control which now is a necessity for any substantial franchise because times have changed.

[Darth_Advent]

In the movies how many aliens work for the Empire? Zero, outside bounty hunters. How many work for the Rebels?

Not a whole lot, actually, besides Nub and Ackbar. We didn't get to see any aliens in the Empire originally because of set politics and budgeting. Lucas broke the bank making Mos Eisely into a freakshow feast for the eyes and relegated British actors, top billing talent like Peter Cushing excluded, to plain and villainous roles because he resented the constraints placed on him by the UK's film industry unions. It had less to do with a coherent plan for how the Empire and Rebellion would be portrayed in the future and much more to do with George Lucas, child of the auteur movement, hating others telling him what to do with his work.

 

Palpatine built the Empire on a war where almost all the enemy were aliens. He was a human supremist simply because it was a divide and conquer strategy. Zahn didn't invent that, he didn't have too!

That's just fan speculation and not a credible justification. There was no contemporary proof of the Empire being institutionally, as in by law, species-ist or sexist. The EU introduced that first, and Zahn's Thrawn trilogy was the earliest novel series where it was tackled seriously. Zahn didn't have a problem letting his imagination run free answering what were then interesting unknowns about the lore. He even tried to write in his own explanation for why Darth Vader was called "Dark Lord of the Sith," which was caught in editing.

 

But while Timothy Zahn was doing the heavy lifting trying to give readers world-building in a time where mystery dominated, Disney's writers are just being expedient. They've kept the racism so that the Empire remains obviously evil with little nuance, and I'm convinced the only reason they aren't back to being male chauvinists is because Kathleen Kennedy belongs to that obnoxious school of modern Feminism wherein even portraying the bad guys being sexist is problematic and microaggressive.

 

And Lucas okayed the use of colored lightsabers in the comics, it was in one of the comic book interviews. He just didn't want them in the movies. Even then he let Samuel L. Jackson have one.

 

I know he did. The argument was that it's still a silly thing to be so stringent about. I'd understand if somebody created a Jedi with a shimmering red-orange-black lightsaber in a comic and then they decided to bring that character into The Clone Wars cartoons, but they altered Plo Koon's from yellow to blue exclusively because Lucas wanted strict limits on colors and which characters could use them. It was his perfect right to do so, but I'm still free to say it was dumb.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Darth_Advent

[dcaleb]

Which makes no sense, since in almost every culture ghosts are regarded as the spirits of people who can't or won't move on because they're filled with regret, sadness, or anger. You'd think that Jedi should be the ones who move on and every sith that dies is a Japanese horror movie in the making.

 

It doesn't make any sense in story either, really. Think about it, Jedi go thru life following the will of the force while Sith go thru life twisting the force to their will. Which of those sounds like the path whose final reward when you reach the apex of the path should be telling the force to **** off with that 'becoming one with the force' nonsense and hanging around as some sort of weird energy being after their body dies? Becoming a force ghost kind of spits in the force's face and makes no sense as a power exclusive to people that served it instead of making it serve them.

Edited June 24, 2016 by dcaleb

[DeltaBos]

I just looked at the new Disney crap as a separate timeline. Everything pre-Disney acquisition is one timeline and post acquisition is an alt timeline, with the events of 1-6 being the ONLY fixed points in time. One mouse is not going to tell me what to accept as cannon.

[Audoucet]

I just looked at the new Disney crap as a separate timeline. Everything pre-Disney acquisition is one timeline and post acquisition is an alt timeline, with the events of 1-6 being the ONLY fixed points in time. One mouse is not going to tell me what to accept as cannon.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_(fiction)

 

You can choose the version that you prefer if you want, but if you want to use the word "canon", use it correctly. Canon is not something that we can decide.

[FlavivsAetivs]

This game was canon along with everything else in the EU, before April 25th, 2014. Granted there were different levels of canon, but it was rather continuous until Dave Filoni came out with his "Clone Wars" TV show. That REALLY screwed it up because it went against the Star Wars Republic Comics and about 50 novels (most of which were mediocre at best) that had already established the events of the clone wars. It also messed up some other things during the Dark Times and Pre-Clone Wars.

 

Also Bane was invented by George Lucas, that's why he still appears in the Clone Wars TV show. George Lucas' version of him changed from what he told Drew Karpyshyn to write.

 

But everything made prior to April 25th, 2014, is non-canon now. Except the 6 movies and Dave Filoni's "Clone Wars".

 

~ Eudoxia

[Limariko]

It doesn't make any sense in story either, really. Think about it, Jedi go through life following the will of the force while Sith go thru life twisting the force to their will. Which of those sounds like the path whose final reward when you reach the apex of the path should be telling the force to **** off with that 'becoming one with the force' nonsense and hanging around as some sort of weird energy being after their body dies? Becoming a force ghost kind of spits in the force's face and makes no sense as a power exclusive to people that served it instead of making it serve them.

 

There's also the aspect of a ghost not passing over because of unfinished business which is also in quite a few cultures. A Force Ghost would work in that aspect of sticking around long enough to help someone through something. Movie example would be Obi-Wan's appearances pretty much stopping after his ghost told Luke to go to Dagobah save for the warm fuzzies manifestation at the end of RotJ. Game example would be:

 

 

Lord Kallig in the SI's story where he's helping his ancestor along until he hits that point where he says I can't keep appearing anymore because he's done all he can.

 

[Thepyrethatburns]

Officially, it isn't.

 

Unofficially, who cares? Canon is what you decide is canon and everything else is an Infinities. Everything that isn't the main EPISODE* movies will eventually become non-canon anyway.

 

*We'll see if side project movies such as Rogue One are still considered canon ten years down the road or if they will suffer the fate of all other Star Wars media.

[Audoucet]

Unofficially, who cares? Canon is what you decide is canon and everything else is an Infinities.

 

Your first statement is perfectly valid. The second one is nonsense. The word "canon", specifically means what is official, not what people like. It's confusing for people, to misuse the word.

 

The OP specifically asked if the game is still canon. The answer is simply no, it is not. That doesn't mean it won't continue and you can't like it, but it is not.

[TalonVII]

This game was canon along with everything else in the EU, before April 25th, 2014. Granted there were different levels of canon, but it was rather continuous until Dave Filoni came out with his "Clone Wars" TV show. That REALLY screwed it up because it went against the Star Wars Republic Comics and about 50 novels (most of which were mediocre at best) that had already established the events of the clone wars. It also messed up some other things during the Dark Times and Pre-Clone Wars.

 

Also Bane was invented by George Lucas, that's why he still appears in the Clone Wars TV show. George Lucas' version of him changed from what he told Drew Karpyshyn to write.

 

But everything made prior to April 25th, 2014, is non-canon now. Except the 6 movies and Dave Filoni's "Clone Wars".

 

~ Eudoxia

 

Forgot "Rebels" that is also Canon. But one game that is still canon, because they did actually make a cameo in TCW, Star Wars: Republic commando. The game, not the book series.

[DeltaBos]

Forgot "Rebels" that is also Canon. But one game that is still canon, because they did actually make a cameo in TCW, Star Wars: Republic commando. The game, not the book series.

 

I think that means the characters are cannon but not the actual game. Good thing is with that logic, that whole Sev thing never happened.

[JourrnoRush]

Look at this from a business standpoint.

 

A lot of players care about the medium they are in being canon or not. Of course, there are plenty who don't care and just enjoy the game/s for what they are.

 

Disney knows that people play this game, that is why Disney allows EA to let it continue.

 

A majority of this game will not be canon, but expect bits and pieces of it to be canon probably after KotFE.

 

Remember, KotFE was an idea AFTER SWTOR became non-canon. Disney gave its blessing for it and that is why you see Lucasfilm included on everything. Disney has an interest in this game and will take pieces of it for canon.

 

No, your ERP smuggler is not canon and never will be.

[Ashlack]

Look at this from a business standpoint.

 

A lot of players care about the medium they are in being canon or not. Of course, there are plenty who don't care and just enjoy the game/s for what they are.

 

Disney knows that people play this game, that is why Disney allows EA to let it continue.

 

A majority of this game will not be canon, but expect bits and pieces of it to be canon probably after KotFE.

 

Remember, KotFE was an idea AFTER SWTOR became non-canon. Disney gave its blessing for it and that is why you see Lucasfilm included on everything. Disney has an interest in this game and will take pieces of it for canon.

 

This game generates money, has lot of player and so on, that's why LucasFilm let it continue, althought every other series or continouous works labelled as legends stopped. SWTOR is the only legend storyline that continues. But that doesn't make it more canon than the others, Lucasfilm may pick up things in it for news stories, the same way it does with any other previous work.

 

And by the way remember, picking up an idea wouldn't make entire parts of the game suddenly canon, only what is mentionned is. If in episode VIII, someone mentionned "an ancient sith lord named Darth Revan", it doesn't involved all his story as we know it, only the fact that there was once a sith lord named Darth Revan, would be canon.

 

At this point point, nothing in SWTOR has been reused somewhere else, therefore nothing in it is canon. The only thing more or less related to the Old Republic would be the mention, in Rebels, of a huge battle on Malachor, at an unknown date, with no information of the participants or the point for this battle.

Edited June 25, 2016 by Ashlack

[Livestick]

The buyout really was an excellent opportunity to evolve beyond its prior limitations, and the fact that The Force Awakens is an original story that disregards George Lucas' blueprints initially gave me hope. There's still an absurd desire among some of the lore developers, though, to honor the fat man's original intent.

 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Oh, wait. You're serious?

 

Which makes no sense, since in almost every culture ghosts are regarded as the spirits of people who can't or won't move on because they're filled with regret, sadness, or anger. You'd think that Jedi should be the ones who move on and every sith that dies is a Japanese horror movie in the making.

 

Of course it makes no sense. Writing things that make sense would require writers that are actually good and the writers of Disney Wars aren't good. The whole thing is basically just a bad fanfic. The only difference being it's an officially sanctioned bad fanfic.

[JourrnoRush]

This game generates money, has lot of player and so on, that's why LucasFilm let it continue, althought every other series or continouous works labelled as legends stopped. SWTOR is the only legend storyline that continues. But that doesn't make it more canon than the others, Lucasfilm may pick up things in it for news stories, the same way it does with any other previous work.

 

And by the way remember, picking up an idea wouldn't make entire parts of the game suddenly canon, only what is mentionned is. If in episode VIII, someone mentionned "an ancient sith lord named Darth Revan", it doesn't involved all his story as we know it, only the fact that there was once a sith lord named Darth Revan, would be canon.

 

At this point point, nothing in SWTOR has been reused somewhere else, therefore nothing in it is canon. The only thing more or less related to the Old Republic would be the mention, in Rebels, of a huge battle on Malachor, at an unknown date, with no information of the participants or the point for this battle.

 

Which was exactly what I said...lol

 

Disney will probably use pieces of the game and make it canon. Like I stated with the comment about people who have their "stories," not everything will be canon as it shouldn't be.

 

I hope when this all comes to an end, this story gets a good closure.

[Rhyltran]

Which was exactly what I said...lol

 

Disney will probably use pieces of the game and make it canon. Like I stated with the comment about people who have their "stories," not everything will be canon as it shouldn't be.

 

I hope when this all comes to an end, this story gets a good closure.

 

I doubt very much of anything in this game will be canon when they don't even want to make the events around KOTOR and KOTOR 2 Canon.

[Audoucet]

Of course it makes no sense. Writing things that make sense would require writers that are actually good and the writers of Disney Wars aren't good. The whole thing is basically just a bad fanfic. The only difference being it's an officially sanctioned bad fanfic.

 

Jedi ghosts as a mysterious, powerful and unknown phenomenon has its roots in their very genesis of SW. Darth Vader doesn't seem to understand what's happening, when Obi-Wan becomes one with the Force. And Obi-Wan seems to acknowledge Vader's ignorance.

 

 

What you should call "basically a fanfic", is Legends. It was all done with little to no supervision from GL, and it was vastly contradictory in itself. Mainly about the treatment of the Force, which is at the centre of the entire license. A LOT of it revolved around relativistic narrative, which was very very much in contradiction with the actual material. Mainly, the whole "Dark Side doesn't exist" thing. Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to say people like you are wrong to like it, but I think it's fair to say that it was very far from the intent of the original material.

 

Now, about Ghosts. Well... I don't think, that it makes more sense to see Dark Side ghosts, actually. The whole Dark Side thing is to sacrifice for more power. You sacrifice always more, to get always more. The thing is, when you are dead, you don't have anything to sacrifice anymore. And you don't have a body anchoring yourself, I'm giving you the power to enslave the Force. On the other hand, Jedi ghosts, they are the ultimate reward, for ultimate selflessness. And it's not even so much a reward, as a pursuit of service. The Force didn't let Qui-gon and Yoda become ghosts for nothing, as explained in the last episodes of Clone Wars. It was to protect itself.

[FlavivsAetivs]

A few points:

 

1. It was not contradictory. The Holocron maintained continuity and many later works explained how the older works didn't contradict the new stuff. Furthermore, it was considered canon by the Lucasfilm Story Group, even if it wasn't necessarily canon to George Lucas himself.

 

2. I will give you, however, that its views of the force were highly contradictory. Force ghosts being a good example. However, it did explain that dark side force ghosts were not actual force ghosts, but the result of things like sith alchemy or force rituals, etc.

 

3. Revan could have technically appeared as a force ghost, because he died as a light-sider. However that was not yet established by the time of TCW.

 

4. To whoever said it, the RC characters are canon, but it doesn't make the game canon. And to whoever said Rebels was canon, yes I know that but I didn't list it because it was created after April 25th, 2014.

 

Of course it makes no sense. Writing things that make sense would require writers that are actually good and the writers of Disney Wars aren't good. The whole thing is basically just a bad fanfic. The only difference being it's an officially sanctioned bad fanfic.

 

I will give you there are a couple good Disney novels, like Tarkin, for example. But the overwhelming majority of them are abominable, no better than the crappy EU works. And none of them, not even the good ones, compare to the writing of the Thrawn or Darth Bane Trilogies.

 

And then we have authors like Chuck Wendig who ACTIVELY INSULTS STAR WARS AND ITS FANS and yet Disney is having him write books.

 

I have always been of the opinion that the EU needed to be cleaned, not thrown away. KOTOR, TOR, Tales, Dawn, Darth Bane/New Sith Wars, Outbound Flight, Republic Commando Game (not the books, they wouldn't have fit), the Jedi Knight games, the Thrawn Trilogy (fixed by Zahn to fit the prequel Clone Wars), and the X-Wing novels should have all been kept. A couple other things too that I forgot in this list, probably. Much of the rest could have been gotten rid of.

 

I would have picked the Star Wars: Republic comics being canon over Dave Filoni's Clone Wars. Aayla, Quinlan, Anakin, Obi-Wan, Qui-gonn, etc. were all far more interesting and they actually explained why the Separatist movement happens (i.e. the Stark Hyperspace War).

 

~ Eudoxia

Edited June 26, 2016 by FlavivsAetivs

[TalonVII]

A few points:

 

1. It was not contradictory. The Holocron maintained continuity and many later works explained how the older works didn't contradict the new stuff. Furthermore, it was considered canon by the Lucasfilm Story Group, even if it wasn't necessarily canon to George Lucas himself.

 

2. I will give you, however, that its views of the force were highly contradictory. Force ghosts being a good example. However, it did explain that dark side force ghosts were not actual force ghosts, but the result of things like sith alchemy or force rituals, etc.

 

3. Revan could have technically appeared as a force ghost, because he died as a light-sider. However that was not yet established by the time of TCW.

 

4. To whoever said it, the RC characters are canon, but it doesn't make the game canon. And to whoever said Rebels was canon, yes I know that but I didn't list it because it was created after April 25th, 2014.

 

 

 

I will give you there are a couple good Disney novels, like Tarkin, for example. But the overwhelming majority of them are abominable, no better than the crappy EU works. And none of them, not even the good ones, compare to the writing of the Thrawn or Darth Bane Trilogies.

 

And then we have authors like Chuck Wendig who ACTIVELY INSULTS STAR WARS AND ITS FANS and yet Disney is having him write books.

 

I have always been of the opinion that the EU needed to be cleaned, not thrown away. KOTOR, TOR, Tales, Dawn, Darth Bane/New Sith Wars, Outbound Flight, Republic Commando Game (not the books, they wouldn't have fit), the Jedi Knight games, the Thrawn Trilogy (fixed by Zahn to fit the prequel Clone Wars), and the X-Wing novels should have all been kept. A couple other things too that I forgot in this list, probably. Much of the rest could have been gotten rid of.

 

I would have picked the Star Wars: Republic comics being canon over Dave Filoni's Clone Wars. Aayla, Quinlan, Anakin, Obi-Wan, Qui-gonn, etc. were all far more interesting and they actually explained why the Separatist movement happens (i.e. the Stark Hyperspace War).

 

~ Eudoxia

 

Far as Rebels, don't even have to look at date, look at who's doing it? Same guy that did Clone Wars. And you seriously think it's NOT going to be canon? Yeah...sure it wouldn't.

[DeltaBos]

The whole thing is basically just a bad fanfic. The only difference being it's an officially sanctioned bad fanfic.

 

I don't think I have ever read a more appropriate description of post Disney acquisition Star Wars

[Darth_Advent]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Oh, wait. You're serious?

 

Yes. Being obnoxious won't make you less wrong.

[Darth_Advent]

What you should call "basically a fanfic", is Legends. It was all done with little to no supervision from GL, and it was vastly contradictory in itself. Mainly about the treatment of the Force, which is at the centre of the entire license. A LOT of it revolved around relativistic narrative, which was very very much in contradiction with the actual material. Mainly, the whole "Dark Side doesn't exist" thing. Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to say people like you are wrong to like it, but I think it's fair to say that it was very far from the intent of the original material.

 

How many times were there clear mandates to push a plot point in a book that the Force doesn't do moral relativism? EU material has never been too shy to figuratively scream, "NO! You're WRONG!" at every persistent effort by an author and his fans to grey the black and white divide until Lucas directed the Mortis Arc in The Clone Wars.

 

They're even doing it in the new novels. A good portion of the dialog in the Princess Leia book "Bloodline" is a colossal middle finger to any fan who wants to interpret the Galactic Civil War as two equally self-invested belligerents doing some good stuff and some bad stuff for their ultimately reasonable (from a certain point of view) ideals.

 

It's heavy enough to feel like indirectly laying down the law against alternate fan interpretations was part of the plan in editing, and it's why I don't fully buy the Disney/Lucasfilm damage control they put out regarding the reshots for Rogue One having nothing to do with altering the tone of the film. It wouldn't be the first time people with veto rights over the continuity have denied supplementary Star Wars media for being too grey.

Edited June 27, 2016 by Darth_Advent

[RebelJedaii]

I know its long late but I thought this relevant since it just appeared on Twitter. It's Pablo Hidalgo admitting the game is Legends.

 

https://twitter.com/pablohidalgo/status/818601288329900032

 

And BTW there is nothing contradictory regarding this game and the rest of the original expanded universe Lucas approved. They needed his approval to give Han and Leia kids, let Luke marry, kill movie characters, etc. SWTOR codex is based largely on Tales of the Jedi comics. Dark Horse authors sent Lucas a checklist of what Jedi could do or not and he disapproved a lot but anything they did, he had approved of, checked off as usable. (The catch of course regarding the Force is Lucas has been known, after the fact, to change his mind). Some of this stuff is even in the prequels (Anakin taming the beast like the Jedi in the comic did for instance.) Whereas it DOES contradict their 'new' stories (where they claim the Republic isn't that old - certainly not as old as this era - and the Jedi built on a Sith temple - again not true in SWTOR)

 

I've always loved how SWTOR tied into Tales of the Jedi, and then later eras. You get to see Exar Kun's ghost vanquished in Jedi Academy trilogy novels with Luke's students and take on Marka Ragnos ghost in the Jedi Academy game. I like to poke those ghosts on Yavin whenever I'm doing the final Revan missions.

 

Theron Shan actually appeared first in the Dark Horse SWTOR comics before he appeared in game. (Albeit not a great comic but still.)

 

Personally I love this game and era. The OT era has just been done to death. I love the original movies but I don't need a rehash of an era I've read stuff/played games on for decades. I'd much rather be playing this and reading this era than following the new stuff.

[jedimasterjac]

I hope to God it's no longer canon. At least this mess with Zakuul.