Combat vs Watchman pros and cons

[spriing]

I am playing a level 18 Jedi Sentinel, Combat specced, and am absolutely loving it. I keep reading about people playing the Watchman spec and while that appears to be more of a raiding spec I am curious if it is a good leveling spec as well. I initially chose Combat for the burst damage and the buffs to Master Strike as it is our hardest hitting ability. Please someone give me your thoughts on the 2 different specs.

 

 

Also note that this is not a Sentinel is broken thread.

Edited December 28, 2011 by spriing
I can't spell

[Lancerx]

I dont know about watchman, but Iv played combat all way to level 31 and It has been super easy and super fast to quest. I can easily solo elites and even champions long as I have cooldowns up. I have biochem and unlimited reusable medpacs which allows me to chain pull groups of mobs without ever slowing and having to stop and rest. So far including beta Iv played trooper and consulars into the 30's and this has been by far the easiest go of it and most fun. Sentinels are pretty bad ***.

[spriing]

Thank you Lancerx, I happen to agree with you but I do seem to be hearing a lot of praise from the non haters of our class on the Watchman tree and was just curious about all of the hype.

 

Anyone one else have anything to add?

[AeetesSixFive]

I recently made lvl 50 and used combat spec the whole way, generally mobs die pretty easily maybe pop a rebuke or something like that but small CD no big deal. Ive been looking at watchman but just love combat too much to change. Edited December 28, 2011 by AeetesSixFive

[Unpleasant]

I did combat spec up until the 20's, got frustrated and respecc'd to Watchman and am now level 40 and very happy with it. I actually have more trouble fighting trash than I do fighting bosses, because with force kick talented down to a 6 second cooldown and all of that single-target DPS with self-healing from dot crits, it's fantastic.

[Ganiccus]

I have tried twice now to upload my new video to YouTube, or else I'd just refer you to it...but twice it has failed uploading, for whatever reason. It will be up soon though.

 

For now, let me tell you, as a 50 Sentinel who played Combat all the way from 1-50, then some at 50; I find Watchman to be superior.

 

I was a long time advocate of Combat, it seems to have all the PvP utility goodies you'd want, and what would seem as incredible burst. However, after extensive testing, it seems that Watchman pulls ahead in just about every area.

 

The one weakness of Watchman is you're more susceptible to being kited in PvP, however you get a talent to reduce your Force Leap cooldown, so it's not *too* bad. Also your Cauterize gets a snare added to it as well, which is useful as you don't have to spend focus on your snare ability.

 

I found Combat to be comparable in damage, however, plenty more focus starved. The Zen effect for Combat is lackluster, I often would just use Transcendence instead for the damage reduction. Also, Watchman builds Centering faster.

 

On top of all that, your critical burns heal you for 2% of your maximum health, making your sustainability better than Combat.

 

This isn't the end-all-be-all, but it is what I have noticed. I really WANTED Combat to be the better PvP spec. I just really don't think it is...Which is too bad. I hate seeing one tree be the best for everything, but, in my opinion, Watchman is currently.

 

Maybe with the Jedi Knight re-works this will change. As I understand it JK/SW are up for an overhaul soon. We'll see how it plays out.

 

TL;DR - Watchman you will find is better all around. Not fair, but the way it is. Don't know when it will change.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Ganiccus

[spriing]

Thanks for the info everyone.

 

@ Ganiccus, I have watched a lot of your videos and I absolutly loved the data cron steal in your signature. Please let me know when you get your video posted. Also did your rivalry with Hater die out or are they one a different server?

[FobManX]

Watchman Pros:

 

Excellent sustained DPS on single targets(probably the best single target DPS in the game)

Self heals with DOTs reducing downtime and increasing efficiency

Good group utility with Zen healing your party

Zen causing all dots to auto crit gives good timed burst when used at the right time(i.e. wait till you get 3 stacks of the Overload Saber debuff on your target then laugh as you melt his face off)

Easier to build Focus once you get melee range Force Leap and dots giving you a chance to gen. Focus

 

Watchman Cons:

 

Build up time makes initial burst weak

Lot of buttons to push/cooldowns to manage

Generally a tougher playstyle requiring more attentiveness

 

 

Won't comment on Combat since I have no experience with it, but from what I've heard stay away from Combat till 40+ because it's too RNG prone without Blade Rush triggering guaranteed Ataru Form procs

[ErisktheRed]

Watchman Pros:

 

Excellent sustained DPS on single targets(probably the best single target DPS in the game)

Self heals with DOTs reducing downtime and increasing efficiency

Good group utility with Zen healing your party

Zen causing all dots to auto crit gives good timed burst when used at the right time(i.e. wait till you get 3 stacks of the Overload Saber debuff on your target then laugh as you melt his face off)

Easier to build Focus once you get melee range Force Leap and dots giving you a chance to gen. Focus

 

Watchman Cons:

 

Build up time makes initial burst weak

Lot of buttons to push/cooldowns to manage

Generally a tougher playstyle requiring more attentiveness

 

 

Won't comment on Combat since I have no experience with it, but from what I've heard stay away from Combat till 40+ because it's too RNG prone without Blade Rush triggering guaranteed Ataru Form procs

 

This is good. I think Combat also needs a bit to really get good and you hybrid with focus a lot early on. Or I did.

 

Watchman you don't need to dabble in other trees at least once you get Valor if you have centering issues.

 

I switched to Watchman from Combat, and just very satisfied. Definitely weaker burst tho initially as said. So I have more experience with Watchman

 

Pros to add: Watchman has the best center building imo too, with Valor 2 just constantly get 30 stacks quickly since it builds based on using focus attacks which is your bread/butter. And if u use Defensive forms from Combat heh crazy centering. Focus gen is really good, 0 meter leap really is unspeakably fantastic, I don't know what I did being forced to leap from 10m min before. Also reduction on Pacify and kick Cooldown really make them much more useful in combat. And the BEST third tier skill Overload Saber is just good immediately, Ataru form needs a lot of the skills for it built up to be really effective. And u really can just go all Watchman, tho I think Defensive Form and Insight are good skills if u need/feel to go outside Watchman. Just make sure to get OS soon as u can.

 

Cons: Just what's been said, it's the best for elite+ mobs but weaker ones it's weaker because you're crit/DoT/weaker burst dmg than Combat. BUT they're weak, shouldn't be a factor.

Edited December 28, 2011 by ErisktheRed

[FobManX]

Oh yeah I forgot about faster Centering building. Getting 4 Centering per focus consuming ability is damn awesome. Then you pop Zen with 3 stacks of OS up and you see those fat crits tick away, such a great feeling.

 

As far as the weaker vs. weaker mobs goes, those mobs go down quick anyway. Once you get Cyclone Slash at 32 you don't even bother dotting up weak mobs, or at least I don't. I just Leap, ZS, Sweep, then spam CS. They're all usually dead or damn close to it by the time I run out of Focus.

[Lancerx]

I just hit 32 and have never tried watchman, I never really thought it would be that great and I destroy so fast with combat. What is it that makes watchman so good? Does overload saver really do that much damage? Is cauterize good? As combat I dont ever use cautarize unless I have nothing else to use and its an elite, otherwise Id rather just use a focus builder. I really wouldnt mind trying out watchman but everytime I look at all the talents they just seem subpar from reading them. I am sure I am mistaken because I havnt tried it. Perhaps I will just have to go play around with it and respec. I take it corruscant is only place you can respec? I am not looking forward to learning whole new set of priorities as combat was very hard to play well too.

[Ghingis]

I am playing a level 18 Jedi Sentinel, Combat specced, and am absolutely loving it. I keep reading about people playing the Watchman spec and while that appears to be more of a raiding spec I am curious if it is a good leveling spec as well. I initially chose Combat for the burst damage and the buffs to Master Strike as it is our hardest hitting ability. Please someone give me your thoughts on the 2 different specs.

 

 

Also note that this is not a Sentinel is broken thread.

 

Yo!

 

I leveled from 10-50 with pure combat PvP specc, and I must say its a real lackluster to play with. Currently im playing Watchman and it is just so more efficient since its less downtime with the selfhealing you have.

[Ghingis]

I just hit 32 and have never tried watchman, I never really thought it would be that great and I destroy so fast with combat. What is it that makes watchman so good? Does overload saver really do that much damage? Is cauterize good? As combat I dont ever use cautarize unless I have nothing else to use and its an elite, otherwise Id rather just use a focus builder. I really wouldnt mind trying out watchman but everytime I look at all the talents they just seem subpar from reading them. I am sure I am mistaken because I havnt tried it. Perhaps I will just have to go play around with it and respec. I take it corruscant is only place you can respec? I am not looking forward to learning whole new set of priorities as combat was very hard to play well too.

 

The thing is, on paper and theoratically Combat should be the better specc, but sadly it doesnt work out that way. The main reason for this is because Ataru form does not do enough damage, and getting a guaranteed crit on Bladestorm just isnt enough for an entire specc.

[BlownSi]

Being a Combat Sent (lvl 35 right now) the biggest thing I can say about the Combat tree is that it really does not shine until the early 30's. Here you start getting the abilities and talents to really build focus fast, allowing you to focus dump really quickly and build back up for a rinse and repeat.

 

Centering builds incredibly fast here as well so you are almost always in Zen, which in Ataru form is basically the equivalent of a haste increase on the GCD, allowing more attacks within that time frame (I know it says only for Slash and such, but it does affect the entire GCD.)

 

I have an 18% crit rating right now along with some Power stacked, and up to this point I have had little trouble with anything (I have also significantly upgraded my companions so this plays a part in this.)

 

The disadvantage in Combat is that you do not have the healing procs you get from Watchman, so medpacks and using all your defensive CDs are a must. Cauterize is also not nearly as useful in Combat as it is in Watchman.

[Lancerx]

The thing is, on paper and theoratically Combat should be the better specc, but sadly it doesnt work out that way. The main reason for this is because Ataru form does not do enough damage, and getting a guaranteed crit on Bladestorm just isnt enough for an entire specc.

 

The thing is , that I kill stuff so fast I rarely have time to use any of my abilities. Unless its an elite or doing flash points or harder champions. From 1-35 so far its been a cake walk, and thats saying it lightly. And precision slash is so good, 100% armor pen combined with some nice aoe allows some pretty big numbers. Specially when I pop my 300 surge adrenal that is resusable. But just wondering what makes watchman so much better, besides people just saying so I guess ill break down and go to corruscant and respec.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Lancerx

[Nacixems]

Ok, im 48, and had done combat up thru 47, then made a swap to watchman. and.. omg. like nite and day for me. combat made a battle with a boss elite my level or above challenging, and i just pray i dont get a pat or add....

 

with watchman, i feel much more in control, its not like im super uber, but, the burns/dots seem to be steady and i dont feel focus starved. i also am able to deal with elites a level or 2 above me and not wet my pants if an add happens by.

 

it is not burst, but it does not take long to see the damage and u have the nice small heals which help if a boss gets a few crits or u get an elite pat happen by.

 

i made the swap to watchman , still getting used to it a bit but i like it a lot better.

 

just my .02. if u have not tried it, give it a shot,

[Dredknut]

My Sentinel is only lvl 28, however I have been dumping most of my points into Watchman so far. I've had virtually no difficulties with any encounters, champions seem to go down fairly easily with the occasional sabre ward, etc. DPS feels good, however as mentioned there is lackluster burst with the class. The success of Watchman spec definitely hinges on DOT and CD management. Overload Saber completely changed the class for me, I feel like my dps doubled lol.

[Avalian]

Gonna have to weigh in on combat as being an effective PVP spec - The controlled on demand burst is simply awesome. I don't really ever have a healer in warzones but it doesn't really bother me at all due to the ridiculous number of control/defensive cooldowns that sentinels have.

 

At level 43 I have ~ 110 percent +damage on my blade storm, ataru, and blade rush crits - sequence goes something like force leap (4), leg slash (2), zealous strike (8), blade rush (6), precision slash (3), blade storm (1), master strike, run away giggling as another inquisitor bites the dust... I routinely see blade storm crits for 3k+ with prec. slash up - stacking surge enhancements in my gear has made a huge difference. With solid blade rush uptime, seeing half my hits result in an ataru form proc dealing 180 on a normal hit and 390-400 on a crit gives me a warm fuzzy feeling inside. I have tried watchman and I think it would have been a lot better leveling up pre 40-ish but i just prefer combat. Watchman's sustained dps may well be higher but I really love the on-demand armor pen burst that combat gives in both pvp and pve - i feel like watchman can't do a whole lot if you don't get reasonably lucky with merciless slash proccing a CD refresh on cauterize and I don't like relying on something that isn't a sure thing. It may be better but it just doesn't fit my playstyle - maybe i'm just bad!

 

On the defensive end, despite not having a pocket healer, I feel a *lot* less gimped than I did playing solo pvp as an arms warrior in wow for 5+ years. Force camo is all that, plus a bag of chips. Pacify neuters most dps classes long enough to lay some pain down, awe is number one winner for disrupting and allowing a teammate to get a node cap or huttball run past their zerg, rebuke is always there for me like a warm fuzzy blanket of "haha, wearing heavy armor", and saber ward is awesome as long as I pop it before the big spikes.

 

As far as I'm concerned, life isn't as bad as all the doom and gloom I see posted here - it's not perfect (force stasis isn't very useful to me except for stunning huttball carriers on fire patches, and defending my teammates from spike damage from other damage dealers), but compared to melee solo pvp in other mmo's I think we have it pretty good. I'd like to see it less dependent on cooldowns so that low level pvp doesn't suck quite so bad, but that would be a very difficult balance to find. If I wasn't such an avid crafter I think things would be harder as well - combat is very dependent on surge rating to give blade storm enough punch to make that bounty hunter think twice about sticking around to spam tracer missile another eleventy-six times. I'm pretty excited to see how things progress as I get closer to level 50 and gain access to the expertise stat.

 

I'm sure other classes are better in pvp - I've seen sages/inquisitors put up some ridiculous numbers, and commandos/mercs do very very well, but overall I think it could be a lot worse

 

Happy slashing, and congrats if you made it to the end of my probably-incoherent wall'o'text

[Lancerx]

So, just wanna add I did re-spec over to watchman and here is my 2 cents. Right away got to say I love the zero range force leap, very cool and basically superb aoe with sweep and force cyclone only costing 1 focus, meaning non strong mobs die instantly or very fast. Vs strong mobs I didn't really notice any difference except that sometime as combat with a quick arturo proc and a blade storm crit you could burst for some better damage. I find the heals to be very lacking overall as watchman, seeing as most things die so fast that I rarely even have time to see a dot tick once. Vs strong mobs even I was having hard time getting overload saber stacks to 3 before he died. This seemed to make me want to basicly dump my zen into transcendence since I kill stuff so fast. Vs Elites I have to say I think I might kill stuff faster as combat, but It was so close I am very uncertain. Focus seemed about the same to me, seeing as the only time focus is a real issue is vs an elite, in which case you can do a zen mastery and spam slash for 2 cost with a nice 1 second global cd instead. The 100% armor pen was nice, but the 100% crit on dots is pretty insane too as watchman. Also having increased accuracy is kinda big deal too with improved offhand weapon damage. A well timed precision slash for 100% armor pen followed by a 1400 blade storm crit and a master strike before the armor pen buff runs out can basicly 3 shot a strong mob before you take any damage.

 

My final thoughts are this. Both specs seem really good. I think I might have been doing slightly better as combat, and this very well may be because I have played combat for 35 levels and watchman for only 4 hours. But that being said, both specs play well, very balanced and can mow through mobs at a very fast pace. I appreciate all the help and tips every has been giving me. I hope others read this and find it useful. And if they are thinking of trying watchman then I would say go for it, its fun , exciting and can be something new to try and learn. It may or may not be better then combat but its fun and very balanced.

[FobManX]

The Watchman party heals from Zen are very good in groups. Yesterday I was doing a Maelstrom Prison with an underleveled healer and the group heals from Zen saved us on a few of the bosses. 1% HP per tick doesn't seem much but it's basically 6% free healing for everyone in your party everytime you pop Zen which will be at least 3-4 times in a boss fight, so that's 18-24% healing over the course of a fight for everyone in your party(and double for you).

[Lancerx]

The Watchman party heals from Zen are very good in groups. Yesterday I was doing a Maelstrom Prison with an underleveled healer and the group heals from Zen saved us on a few of the bosses. 1% HP per tick doesn't seem much but it's basically 6% free healing for everyone in your party everytime you pop Zen which will be at least 3-4 times in a boss fight, so that's 18-24% healing over the course of a fight for everyone in your party(and double for you).

 

Yea great point, I didn't think about it much, I am gonna run some flashpoints as watchman now. I haven't ran any since I respect'd so I will see more of the rotation since the elites want die so fast.

[Timberley]

Well, I'm currently a Level 18 Watchman, and I find it to be really good against bosses, with either Kira or T7 as my companion. Also, bear in mind I play PvE, and have yet to even attempt PvP.

 

Equal and lower level mobs are fairly easy to take down, but I couldn't find an AoE attack, like the Force Wave my Shadow can pull out of the bag to stop my companion or I getting swamped by goons, but that could be because I've not been paying attention to my abilities as I've levelled.

 

The main thing I found that's useful against boss-type characters is the DoT that Cauterise brings, as well as Saber Ward (for the big bosses), the Leap for the initial focus burst, and Zen (using Juyo form). But, that could be me.

 

I have not tried Combat, so can't comment on it.

 

Tim

 

P.S. This is my current build: Link